| Immigration 11:57 - May 26 with 12306 views | donkeylabour |
Can someone explain something to me because it has puzzled me for a long time.
Net Immigration last year 330k
Within that Net increase from EU 180k
From outside the EU 188K
Why do we in perpetuum bang on about EU migration, where this IS an economic benefit to the Country as the immigrants tend to be younger, in work and more mobile.
Non EU migration we have issues in terms of assimilation, language problems, huge families in which the women tend not to work, much higher levels of unemployment.
The UKIP types are always banging on about immigrants and it doesn't take a genius to know what they mean *nudge nudge, wink wink* why all this obsessing about a EU migrants.
BTW Net Immigration is too high, unless we spend sh1t loads of infrastructure and demolish our green belt something has to give. |  |
| My father voted labour and his father voted labour and his father voted labour so I vote labour |
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| Immigration on 12:32 - May 26 with 8683 views | oldgrey |
It puzzles me that 180k plus 188k equals 330k. |  | | |
| Immigration on 12:34 - May 26 with 8660 views | Highjack |
| Immigration on 12:32 - May 26 by oldgrey |
It puzzles me that 180k plus 188k equals 330k. |
Must be loads of bloody immigrants sneaking in unaccounted for, taking our jobs and our women and acting like they own the fecking place. Fecking Greeks. They invented gayness. |  |
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| Immigration on 13:08 - May 26 with 8646 views | donkeylabour |
| Immigration on 12:32 - May 26 by oldgrey |
It puzzles me that 180k plus 188k equals 330k. |
'NET' | |
| My father voted labour and his father voted labour and his father voted labour so I vote labour |
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| Immigration on 13:46 - May 26 with 8596 views | AnotherJohn |
Why is non-EU immigration still so high? Part of the answer is that the largest single group are students, who are not here permanently and arguably should he classified in a different way. It is hard to be sure of the exact number, but in 2013 it was probably about 177,000.
http://www.migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/briefings/non-european-student-migratio
Remember that the net figure (taking account of people leaving) doesn't record the numbers needing to integrate, which is about double (less if you allow that some coming in are returning Brits).
I agree with the OP's last point about space and infrastructure.. Even forgetting the issues of integration, population increase in itself is a big problem.
http://www.populationmatters.org/
The Migration Observatory published an interesting report saying that there is no way of keeping the population below 70 million if the UK remains in the EU.
http://www.migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/britains-70-million-debate/4-migration-
(some more data on students in this report in section 4). | | | |
| Immigration on 13:48 - May 26 with 8572 views | Highjack |
There's a lot of Australian barmen too who are vital to society | |
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| Immigration on 14:09 - May 26 with 8554 views | blueytheblue |
| Immigration on 13:46 - May 26 by AnotherJohn |
Why is non-EU immigration still so high? Part of the answer is that the largest single group are students, who are not here permanently and arguably should he classified in a different way. It is hard to be sure of the exact number, but in 2013 it was probably about 177,000.
http://www.migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/briefings/non-european-student-migratio
Remember that the net figure (taking account of people leaving) doesn't record the numbers needing to integrate, which is about double (less if you allow that some coming in are returning Brits).
I agree with the OP's last point about space and infrastructure.. Even forgetting the issues of integration, population increase in itself is a big problem.
http://www.populationmatters.org/
The Migration Observatory published an interesting report saying that there is no way of keeping the population below 70 million if the UK remains in the EU.
http://www.migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/britains-70-million-debate/4-migration-
(some more data on students in this report in section 4). |
Largest single group may well be students; there is however still an issue with bogus colleges used merely for the purpose of getting people into Britain. There's also an issue with people on student ( and indeed travel ) visas staying on past the visa expiry date and indeed breaching visa conditions whilst legally in Britain. | |
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| Immigration on 14:19 - May 26 with 8543 views | AnotherJohn |
| Immigration on 14:09 - May 26 by blueytheblue |
Largest single group may well be students; there is however still an issue with bogus colleges used merely for the purpose of getting people into Britain. There's also an issue with people on student ( and indeed travel ) visas staying on past the visa expiry date and indeed breaching visa conditions whilst legally in Britain. |
If you look at the first link you'll see that the number of non-EU students has fallen sharply since 2010 (though they are still the largest group). This is because there has been a clamp down on the bogus colleges, language schools etc. There has also been a tightening up of ability to stay on to work after finishing a degree.
You probably gathered that I think levels of immigration are too high; it is just that I do not think students are the problem. [Post edited 26 May 2016 14:27]
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| Immigration on 14:24 - May 26 with 8540 views | blueytheblue |
| Immigration on 14:19 - May 26 by AnotherJohn |
If you look at the first link you'll see that the number of non-EU students has fallen sharply since 2010 (though they are still the largest group). This is because there has been a clamp down on the bogus colleges, language schools etc. There has also been a tightening up of ability to stay on to work after finishing a degree.
You probably gathered that I think levels of immigration are too high; it is just that I do not think students are the problem. [Post edited 26 May 2016 14:27]
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Non-EU students are desired by universities as they pay higher fees.
I'd agree steps have been taken against bogus colleges, but sadly not all have been closed. Tightening up staying on to work afterwards has had steps but still not great.
Students who then stay on using their knowledge are going to be skilled workers so there's no real issue per se with regards to that. | |
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| Immigration on 14:32 - May 26 with 8530 views | dailew |
in 2014 over half a million UK residents were born in Pakistan (doubled in ten years).
Large swathes of London now dominated by Muslims. At this rate London will have a muslim majority in 20-30 years.
Was in Manor Park last week. Felt much less a foreigner in Eastern Europe where I was the previous week.
Ironically, the future option to move to a less Islamic country in Eastern Europe will be removed for the anti-immigration brigade who vote for Brexit. |  |
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| Immigration on 14:37 - May 26 with 8524 views | AnotherJohn |
| Immigration on 14:24 - May 26 by blueytheblue |
Non-EU students are desired by universities as they pay higher fees.
I'd agree steps have been taken against bogus colleges, but sadly not all have been closed. Tightening up staying on to work afterwards has had steps but still not great.
Students who then stay on using their knowledge are going to be skilled workers so there's no real issue per se with regards to that. |
Indeed. At Swansea University the tuition fees for overseas postgraduate students range from £13,300 to £17,500 p.a. and then there is what the students pay to the local economy for subsidence and accommodation. Most are funded from their own countries, rather than having UK scholarships. It is a major contributor to our export of services,
Re staying on, doctoral students can apply for a 12 months work experience visa (Tier 4) or try to get a visa under the general points-based Tier 2 arrangements (less easy). | | | |
| Immigration on 14:57 - May 26 with 8499 views | donkeylabour |
| Immigration on 14:32 - May 26 by dailew |
in 2014 over half a million UK residents were born in Pakistan (doubled in ten years).
Large swathes of London now dominated by Muslims. At this rate London will have a muslim majority in 20-30 years.
Was in Manor Park last week. Felt much less a foreigner in Eastern Europe where I was the previous week.
Ironically, the future option to move to a less Islamic country in Eastern Europe will be removed for the anti-immigration brigade who vote for Brexit. |
20-30 yrs? That's being conservative I would suggest | |
| My father voted labour and his father voted labour and his father voted labour so I vote labour |
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| Immigration on 17:15 - May 26 with 8410 views | yescomeon |
Being majority muslim is neither here or there. We're majority atheist, before that we were probably majority protestant, majority catholic before that, majority pagan before that (may be historical inaccuracies in there but the point is the same). The issue is that we ain't got room. But then again the world hasn't got room. Immigration is local manifestation of the global problem of overpopulation. |  |
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| Immigration on 18:05 - May 26 with 8377 views | donkeylabour |
| Immigration on 17:15 - May 26 by yescomeon |
Being majority muslim is neither here or there. We're majority atheist, before that we were probably majority protestant, majority catholic before that, majority pagan before that (may be historical inaccuracies in there but the point is the same). The issue is that we ain't got room. But then again the world hasn't got room. Immigration is local manifestation of the global problem of overpopulation. |
Our laws were based around Christianity.
The difference between Islam and all the other faiths is that loyalty is to the religion first and then Country, it's not like Mrs Jones popping along to Sunday service. Islam is all consuming whether that's moderate(?) or fundamentalist.
If Islam takes a greater role in society inevitably society will have to change to adapt to it, rather than the other way around. That's the nature of the beast, I think people are very unaware of the differences and believe it's all the same it isn't. | |
| My father voted labour and his father voted labour and his father voted labour so I vote labour |
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| Immigration on 18:14 - May 26 with 8357 views | controversial_jack |
| Immigration on 18:05 - May 26 by donkeylabour |
Our laws were based around Christianity.
The difference between Islam and all the other faiths is that loyalty is to the religion first and then Country, it's not like Mrs Jones popping along to Sunday service. Islam is all consuming whether that's moderate(?) or fundamentalist.
If Islam takes a greater role in society inevitably society will have to change to adapt to it, rather than the other way around. That's the nature of the beast, I think people are very unaware of the differences and believe it's all the same it isn't. |
The laws of this country are secular | | | |
| Immigration on 21:28 - May 26 with 8267 views | oh_tommy_tommy |
There's plenty of room in uk .
Now infrastructure is another matter . |  |
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| Immigration on 22:48 - May 26 with 8211 views | PozuelosSideys |
| Immigration on 21:28 - May 26 by oh_tommy_tommy |
There's plenty of room in uk .
Now infrastructure is another matter . |
Thats fine, until all the green belt areas that the Swansea population are rightly proud of, start getting concreted over to provide sufficient housing stock for those moving in from elsewhere and then possibly not integrating well in to society. |  |
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| Immigration on 23:46 - May 26 with 8169 views | oh_tommy_tommy |
| Immigration on 22:48 - May 26 by PozuelosSideys |
Thats fine, until all the green belt areas that the Swansea population are rightly proud of, start getting concreted over to provide sufficient housing stock for those moving in from elsewhere and then possibly not integrating well in to society. |
95% of the UK is green fields ,plenty of room | |
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| Immigration on 03:35 - May 27 with 8128 views | Loyal |
| Immigration on 14:37 - May 26 by AnotherJohn |
Indeed. At Swansea University the tuition fees for overseas postgraduate students range from £13,300 to £17,500 p.a. and then there is what the students pay to the local economy for subsidence and accommodation. Most are funded from their own countries, rather than having UK scholarships. It is a major contributor to our export of services,
Re staying on, doctoral students can apply for a 12 months work experience visa (Tier 4) or try to get a visa under the general points-based Tier 2 arrangements (less easy). |
I think the point some are making is that there are too many of the little bleeders. |  |
| Nolan sympathiser, clout expert, personal friend of Leigh Dineen, advocate and enforcer of porridge swallows.
The official inventor of the tit w@nk. | | Poll: | Who should be Swansea number 1 |
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| Immigration on 08:10 - May 27 with 8087 views | AnotherJohn |
| Immigration on 03:35 - May 27 by Loyal |
I think the point some are making is that there are too many of the little bleeders. |
It is the gangs of young men hanging around town having been 'dispersed' here from conflict zones that makes me think twice about letting my 13 year-old go to the beach for a barbecue with his mates after dusk. I'm less worried by the thought of him bumping into students from the campus. | | | |
| Immigration on 11:22 - May 27 with 8040 views | donkeylabour |
| Immigration on 23:46 - May 26 by oh_tommy_tommy |
95% of the UK is green fields ,plenty of room |
Tommy why do you think there's been a lot of problem with floods?
In any case why would you want to destroy our green belt? | |
| My father voted labour and his father voted labour and his father voted labour so I vote labour |
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| Immigration on 12:07 - May 27 with 8010 views | MrSwerve |
The NHS is falling, Schools are overcrowded, as are transport services etc.
I really don't think it's difficult - stop letting large amounts of migrants in.
People say that immigrants help prop up the NHS, yes, well that's because there's a shedload of patients that are also from other countries...
I'm all for controlled immigration, but we need to adopt the Australian method of vetting people before they come in. The problem is, you're a racist if you suggest this. |  |
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| Immigration on 12:29 - May 27 with 7978 views | GB11 |
The difference I feel is that people coming from outside the EU are paying for VISA's bringing money in to our system.
Where as a good number of EU migrants, come with nothing other than a plane ticket.
And I also find it funny that people claim EU migrants uphold the NHS. So for instance if we left, eastern european doctors would be unable to come to Britain as they would need to get VISA's.
Laughable. |  | | |
| Immigration on 12:37 - May 27 with 7966 views | LeonisGod |
| Immigration on 12:07 - May 27 by MrSwerve |
The NHS is falling, Schools are overcrowded, as are transport services etc.
I really don't think it's difficult - stop letting large amounts of migrants in.
People say that immigrants help prop up the NHS, yes, well that's because there's a shedload of patients that are also from other countries...
I'm all for controlled immigration, but we need to adopt the Australian method of vetting people before they come in. The problem is, you're a racist if you suggest this. |
http://www.kingsfund.org.uk/projects/verdict/what-do-we-know-about-impact-immigr
In summary, the evidence that immigrants are a drain on the NHS is sketchy at best. They are less likely to use the services than UK nationals, and controls have been tightened up including up-front charges for non-nationals. It costs somewhere around £2b (£80m of which is health tourism) out of a £113b budget. Whereas immigrants make up 20% of the staff, being a much greater positive effect.
If we really wanted to ease the pressure on the NHS we need to:
Stop letting people get older
Stop letting them get fatter
Stop letting them get drunk
Stop letting them smoke
Or fund it appropriately in line with an aging and increasingly unhealthy (obese) population.
And ask the question why we need immigrants to pop up the NHS when we have unemployment amongst UK nationals. [Post edited 27 May 2016 12:41]
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| Immigration on 12:49 - May 27 with 7951 views | LeonisGod |
| Immigration on 12:29 - May 27 by GB11 |
The difference I feel is that people coming from outside the EU are paying for VISA's bringing money in to our system.
Where as a good number of EU migrants, come with nothing other than a plane ticket.
And I also find it funny that people claim EU migrants uphold the NHS. So for instance if we left, eastern european doctors would be unable to come to Britain as they would need to get VISA's.
Laughable. |
That's not true. There are a number of ways immigrants pay or costs can be recouped for EU migrants:
Same link as before http://www.kingsfund.org.uk/projects/verdict/what-do-we-know-about-impact-immigr
"Free access to other types of NHS-provided hospital care depends on immigration status. There are slight differences in the rules between England, Scotland and Wales, but in general people can receive NHS hospital treatment without charge if:
- they qualify as ‘ordinarily resident’ in the United Kingdom. The 2014 Immigration Act tightened the definition of ’ordinarily resident’ as it relates to NHS services by linking it to an individual’s right to 'indefinite leave to remain' in the United Kingdom. Indefinite leave to remain can only be applied for after a minimum of five years’ residence in the United Kingdom
- the United Kingdom has a reciprocal health care agreement with their country of residence. People who are not defined as ‘ordinarily resident’, such as temporary migrants and visitors, can claim treatment on the NHS if their country of residence has a reciprocal agreement. This includes, for example, all European Economic Area-residents (comprising all of the European Union plus Iceland, Liechtenstein and Norway). For these European - Economic Area citizens, the United Kingdom can subsequently recoup the costs of treatment from their respective governments
- they fall within one of a range of specific groups, eg, if they are making an application for asylum in the United Kingdom.
"The government has also announced steps to improve the recovery of costs of migrant and visitor health care. In July 2014 it announced that some patients from outside Europe using the NHS will be charged 150 per cent of the cost of treatment under new incentives for the NHS to recover costs from visitors and immigrants. It is also exploring recovering the costs of a wider range of services including from non-NHS providers of NHS care, pharmacy and dentistry. " | | | |
| Immigration on 12:52 - May 27 with 7951 views | jojaca |
| Immigration on 12:37 - May 27 by LeonisGod |
http://www.kingsfund.org.uk/projects/verdict/what-do-we-know-about-impact-immigr
In summary, the evidence that immigrants are a drain on the NHS is sketchy at best. They are less likely to use the services than UK nationals, and controls have been tightened up including up-front charges for non-nationals. It costs somewhere around £2b (£80m of which is health tourism) out of a £113b budget. Whereas immigrants make up 20% of the staff, being a much greater positive effect.
If we really wanted to ease the pressure on the NHS we need to:
Stop letting people get older
Stop letting them get fatter
Stop letting them get drunk
Stop letting them smoke
Or fund it appropriately in line with an aging and increasingly unhealthy (obese) population.
And ask the question why we need immigrants to pop up the NHS when we have unemployment amongst UK nationals. [Post edited 27 May 2016 12:41]
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Control your borders, pick the best migrants to come into the country. I don't see Swansea picking up third rate footballers from Europe, we try and pick the best within our budget. They would not want some 32 year old fourth division footballer from Turkey forced on us. |  |
| Even when you know, you never know? |
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