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Is the club's strategy really one it has chosen? 16:19 - Dec 11 with 4596 views

Perhaps the question has already been asked, or asked in a different form, but one thing I have been wondering is, has the strategy that's been pursued actually been the strategy that the club wanted?

At one level the answer seems an obvious 'Yes', because Warnock behaved in a similar manner to Hughes, buying from other Premiership clubs, implying that the strategy since promotion has been to bring in 'Premiership quality' players.

But were the players they got the ones they wanted? Warnock always used to talk about 'bread-and-butter' players, so was Barton, who had been languishing in Newcastle reserves, really his type of player?

And did Hughes really want so many older players when there was such a risk of them getting injured?

Reading, Southampton and Norwich seem to be able to do more with less, but all those teams have an established infrastructure and have been in the Premiership much more recently than us. They also don't face the same competition as us in their catchment areas. If they are relegated they do not face the competition from local teams for support we do. And in the case of Southampton we know that they spent more than us in the summer.

So are there other factors at play? Is it much harder to attract players when the club has only just arrived in the Premiership? Was the fact that Danny Graham and Routledge didn't come to QPR solely because of Briatore and Ecclestone's control of the purse strings, or concern over the volatility of the club? And if they are all 'mercenaries' do they care about such things?

Was it considered too risky to try and develop players from the lower leagues? How easy is it to get Championship teams to part with their 'crown jewels', especially if they have a serious chance of promotion?

To sum up, was ours really a strategy of choice or a strategy of desperation?

Air hostess clique

Is the club's strategy really one it has chosen? on 11:06 - Dec 12 with 1030 views

PinnerPaul

Is the club's strategy really one it has chosen? on 20:14 - Dec 11 by wood_hoop

I would have liked Hougton or Martinez, even had a look in the lower divisions, the money spent on Hughes and his team could have maybe enticed virtually anyone who wasn't a 'name' and left change.

But then maybe even if I had the money to burn I wouldn't buy into football the way it is set up now, I know for sure though that no manager I employed would have licence to spend money on players and their salaries without some input from myself.

TF has taken a big risk, in business its all about risks, his is failing and mostly because he allowed the situation to develop where his input has been neglible or poor.

To be fair why would MH or any football person listen to a Malayasian entrepreneur who knows about airlines and whose main hobby to date had been motor racing.

Not sure how TF's 'input' would have helped and would have only led to the FB situation much quicker - players chairman wanted fail, chairman blames manager, chairman sacks manager, brings in a new one, continues to have 'input' and the whole cycle starts again.

Is the club's strategy really one it has chosen? on 11:49 - Dec 12 with 1011 views

Cornish_oooRRRR

I’m with Clive on this one.
In a pre-Harry "Sven" thread I posted:

"Please not Sven. Someone young with ambition (?)

Sack hughes, lose the arrogance, prepare for Cship in Jan window and who knows...

Sunderland, Nrwich, Reading and Shampton are still sh1te"

http://www.fansnetwork.co.uk/football/queensparkrangers/fb_mb.php?m=v&t=68267&pa

It’s ironic that are preparing for the championship might give us the best chance of staying up

(I may have to eat my words regarding Norwich

but we can but

s )

It's got to be Yarg

Is the club's strategy really one it has chosen? on 11:55 - Dec 12 with 1000 views

Antti_Heinola

Is the club's strategy really one it has chosen? on 17:00 - Dec 11 by Northernr

For Warnock, I think the strategy was one of desperation. Immediately after promotion we bid for Graham and it was pretty clear he wanted Routledge and Naughton as well, and Traore I think. That's much more Norwich/Swansea type strategy - in fact three of those players went to those clubs - and would have suited us much better. They would have added quality to our Championship team where it was required without introducing a load of massive high earners to the squad. That was the last time we actually had the right strategy but unfortunately the takeover etc meant no money was released and they all went elsewhere.

Warnock's strategy then turned into one where he knew he was short in a few areas, but had no money to do anything about it, so he had to scrabble around for people like Campbell, Bothroyd, Gabbidon, Perone etc.

Then when the takeover did go through it had happened so late, and the opening game of the season had gone so badly, that I think there was an air of panic about it all. It became a seller's market because they knew we were flush with cash and desperate, so suddenly clubs found a way to offload players they were desperate to be rid of. We took players that had something wrong with them, and we paid over the odds to get the deals done quickly, which meant we suddenly had half a squad that had worked hard to get us there earning X, and half a squad of players being vastly overpaid on y for what they were actually capable of delivering.

Hughes' strategy initially seemed to be about adding physical presense and speed to the team - Zamora, Cisse, Onuoha, Diakite, Taiwo in the intial intake are all big powerful lads. That suggested his strategy was very much to mould us on the Blackburn team he had previously, which would have been no bad thing really.

His strategy in the summer seemed to be fairly arrogant, in that he felt we'd arrived and consolidated in the Premier League and therefore had the base to add tippy tappy players used to winning things at quality clubs. He was miguided in this because we were lucky to stay up this season and probably should have been sticking to the physical, difficult to play against, get to 42 points strategy first and foremost.

When things clearly weren't going well at the end of pre-season (we were outplayed in both German friendlies) and the opening games of the season he, like Warnock, panicked and spent over the odds on big name players which further divided the squad.

Running themes in this:
1 - Both managers, at times, totally overestimated how many players we actually needed to buy. Zamora instead of Helguson, Gabbidon instead of Gorkss, Granero instead of Faurlin, Green instead of Kenny, Cesar instead of Green and so on were transfers we simply didn't need to make. Let's not forget that Warnock had Jason Puncheon waiting to sign a loan deal in case the SWP fell through, then when SWP did go through he signed Puncheon anyway because he felt bad for him waiting around all day - his words not mine. I think we've made 28 signings in the last four transfer windows, when really we needed six to eight players.
2 - Twice in three transfer windows we've panicked, and gone looking for short term quick fixes to perceived problems, rather than simply sticking to a long term plan. This has lumbered us with players we didn't do due diligence on who have proved to be problems for us - Barton, SWP - players we simply didn't need at all - see above - and players we've paid over the odds for wages wise splitting the squad. Wigan were tracking Kone for three years before they signed him - it means they can wait for the price and circumstances to suit them. By panicking we were a buyer in a seller's market. Now we're going to have to get rid of them all pretty quickly, becoming a seller in a buyer's market. Not good on either count because you get fcked financially.
3 - Both managers, but particularly Hughes, underestimated what was already at the club, and the value of team spirit and hard work.

The question is, what's the strategy now?
I wrote an article prior to Redknapp's appointment saying I was wary of simply having another coronation of a manager who's meant to be the saviour and I stand by it. At the risk of being branded defeatist or a surrender monkey, I personally think that each day that goes by with us persisting with the idea that we can actually survive this season is a day wasted from the time it's going to take us to recover from all of the above.
When Derby were in this position they too sacked the manager and made a load of January signings to try and stay up, then a load more summer signings under the new manager to try and get back up. They still haven't recovered from it now. When Nigel Clough took over he had a squad of 46 professionals I think - so many he had to put on two training sessions a day and split them into two groups. He's spent the last three years using each transfer window to try and get the number and the wage bill down, rather than building his own team, and God it shows.
If we don't find two wins from the next four games I think there's an argument for surrendering and starting to look forward now. The transfer window system means it can take years and years to shift the mistakes we've made. For instance, if we can get an offer this January for Cesar and Green perhaps we should accept both. It will only leave us with Murphy and Cerny for the rest of this season, but this season has gone. Green and Cesar will be far too expensive in the division below so if we can get rid of them now then stuff this season.
By adding another four or five players this January in some ill-fated attempt to escape we're simply creating further problems for ourself in the summer when we're going to need to get rid of 10-20 high earners, bring in 10-12 decent Championship players, and start the process of trying to get back before the parachute payments end.
Like I say if we don't win any of the next four it might well be worth starting that process now - including a discussion about whether Redknapp is the manager to do that. He's well capable, as he showed at Portsmouth, but can he be arsd at this stage of his career?
Still think we should have gone with a forward thinking, younger manager like Mackay or Poyet rather than a short term attempt to save the unsaveable.

Fck I've gone off on one there. Still, that's the match preview intro written I guess!

[Post edited 1 Jan 1970 1:00]

Superb.

Bare bones.

Is the club's strategy really one it has chosen? on 12:29 - Dec 12 with 991 views

SomersetHoops

Although I agree with Norf's summary, I hope we are not giving up too soon. Of the available people with any chance of keeping us up I'm not saying Harry was the best option, but he was the top one and I think he has worked in lower divisions enough to know there are a few diamonds down there that just need the chance.

Problem is he hasn't got the time to form them into Premiership players, so what is needed are some tough quick defenders and a striker or two for now if we manage a couple of wins before January. If we do get additional players, we need to be careful about their fitness and length of contract.

We may need DJ back, but I don't want to see Barton, Hulse or even Bothroyd playing for QPR again. The young, skillful, keen and determined young players can follow for next season and into the future. This will need careful scouting and assessment and I'm not sure the scouting team recruited under Hughes are capable of this based on their performance so far. I don't really see why Harry can't carry on and sort out QPR while he still has the will, energy and enthusiasm for the difficult task ahead.

Who's Next?

Is the club's strategy really one it has chosen? on 13:31 - Dec 12 with 979 views

hoops_legend

Is the club's strategy really one it has chosen? on 19:25 - Dec 11 by Northernr
I'm genuinely interested; what have you seen post spurs away to suggest we're capable of gettin 9 points at all, never mind overhauling that gap?

I think theres a lot of positives to take coming up for next few games..

Harry has improved our defending (somewhat) while if we can bring back the passing game we brought to spurs with confidence and Cisse gets a bit of a run then we will be looking to survive by end of season.

I realise there are a lot of IFs but surely you recognise this team has the potential to get out of this but team needs to start firing on all cylinders...

Poll:

Would you rather win league cup or survive?

Is the club's strategy really one it has chosen? on 13:31 - Dec 12 with 979 views

hoops_legend

Is the club's strategy really one it has chosen? on 19:25 - Dec 11 by Northernr
I'm genuinely interested; what have you seen post spurs away to suggest we're capable of gettin 9 points at all, never mind overhauling that gap?

Poll:

Would you rather win league cup or survive?

Is the club's strategy really one it has chosen? on 13:42 - Dec 12 with 974 views

Jamie

Is the club's strategy really one it has chosen? on 13:31 - Dec 12 by hoops_legend

We looked more solid v Sunderland & at times against Villa but then conceded 2 ridiculously sloppy goals at Wigan and could've easily conceded several more.

Is the club's strategy really one it has chosen? on 13:48 - Dec 12 with 972 views

Northernr

Is the club's strategy really one it has chosen? on 13:31 - Dec 12 by hoops_legend

I'm yet to see anything at all this season apart from in the Chelsea and Spurs games to suggest this team has the potential to win a single match this season, never mind enough to get out of the relegation zone.

I look down this board sometimes and think I'm watching a different team. The positives this season are:
- Ryan Nelsen
- Jamie Mackie

that really is it. In the last three games we've failed to beat three of the league's worst teams.

Is the club's strategy really one it has chosen? on 14:32 - Dec 12 with 953 views

PinnerPaul

Bookies finally getting it

8/13 in only one place now,shorter, sometimes much shorter, everywhere else.

For mid December, that's shocking really.

I'm with Clive, IF/WHEN we finally get that win, as long as its not too late, the only difference it will make will be that our odds to go down will lengthen slightly.

Time then to have another few quid on - I know its the equivalent of drowning puppies or kicking babies to some of you but hey ho there we go!

Is the club's strategy really one it has chosen? on 16:20 - Dec 12 with 934 views

TacticalR

Something else that's been bothering me (and sorry if it's stating the bleedin' obvious)...

When we are talking about spending, there is often a confusion between whether we mean spending too much or spending badly.

Is it always clear what spending too much is? For example...supposing we had bought Michu, but say at £10m. If he scored 25 goals in a season (as Michu is on course to do), and that kept us up with plenty to spare, would that have been spending too much? It would be more than we have spent on any single player so far. Would that have been a bargain?

Is it always clear what spending too little is? After all, Boswinga, the Champions League winner, didn't cost a penny.

Nobody wants to buy bad players who are expensive, and everybody wants to buy good players who are cheap, but perhaps the line isn't always so clear.

Air hostess clique

Is the club's strategy really one it has chosen? on 19:36 - Dec 12 with 907 views

Harbour

Is the club's strategy really one it has chosen? on 13:48 - Dec 12 by Northernr

Agree with you north and excellent first post.....seen nothing to suggest we can stay up. idea of preparing for next season now is best option get rid of high wages and bring in players for next year from lower leagues.HR would be able to bring us back up but not convinced he will not sign more older players. the comparison with Derby is scary Portsmouth Coventry livng beyond your means can have serious consequences that last for years.. TF needs to put the cheque book away

Is the club's strategy really one it has chosen? on 19:58 - Dec 12 with 900 views

derbyhoop

The comparison with Derby is spot on.
4 years since relegation with the lowest PL points total on record (so far!).
In that time, they haven't finished in the top half of the Championship
Attendances have fallen every year, but they still get around 20K
But they've cleared the high earners off the wage bill, e.g. Kenny Miller, Robbie Savage and Stephen Bywater.
Derby fans questioning the manager
It's a club that has taken 4 years to be put on something approaching a sound business footing.
They are now starting to benefit from the top class Academy that was built in 2003. Will Hughes, Jeff Hendrick, Mason Bennet and Mark O'Brien have all come through the ranks.
The parachute payments have gone but they are in a far better position now than they were in 2009. I still don't see them mounting a promotion push for at least another 2 years.

So, if we go down, we'd better get prepared for a long absence from the PL.

Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the Earth all oneâ€™s lifetime. (Mark Twain) Find me on twitter @derbyhoop

Is the club's strategy really one it has chosen? on 09:17 - Dec 13 with 874 views

SomersetHoops

Is the club's strategy really one it has chosen? on 16:20 - Dec 12 by TacticalR

The thing is for competent scouts and managers, the line should be a lot clearer and it hasn't been under Hughes. Given the full summer and part of last season they had to assess and get what was needed, we finished up with what we didn't need. They seemed to focus on players like Samba who were not available at a price we could afford and instead of setting out ability parameters based on the skills required, just bought other teams rejects for no other reason than they were available and they had played under Hughes before. I presume Hughes was mainly responsible for this, but it doesn't say much for the rest of the people involved who should all take part of the blame for the mess we are in and accept the consequences of their incompetence.

Who's Next?

Is the club's strategy really one it has chosen? on 10:41 - Dec 13 with 863 views

Phildo

I think the answer to the original question is yes - the club has chosen this strategy and all are culpable.

Warnocks late signings were awful. Both the pre and post takeover ones. He can perhaps blame the timing - but it was well known that Anton Ferdinand was gash.If you go shopping in the damaged goods department what are you going to get.

Hughes comes in and 'interviews the club' ie I will take on this poor squad on a promise we are going to do big things next time round.

The summer signings were the real low point. The board wanted an international group who could be sold around the world to sell airline tickets. We got a plane painted in QPR colours. The manager forgot we had just stayed up by the skin of our arse and started to assemble a top 4 B team rather than a bottom 6 A team. Turns out there is a reason those boys were in the B team. how many shite Manu fullback rejects does it take in a lifetime to learn that? We fans (at least me) supported that and continue to secretly hope we can scrape a few points and sign a couple in January who will make it all better. But would it?

If by some Big Pat tear in the fabric of reality we stayed up wont we all be here (me included) calling for big signings next summer. We did the same in the championship billionaire days and were gutted when a summer finally came round and we signed so called clapped out players like Hill Derry and Kenny. Anyone wonder why when Paddy Kenny has a few beers in him he wanted to text the powers that be at our club and tell them they were not very good at running a club (in Paddy speak). Did we notice - after all our boys had just been on a tour of the far east as if they were celebrating winning the world cup and we were amazed that Swansea had just thrashed us.

We are all watching players this season who patently do not give a monkeys. Last time we went down (prem) that was not the case.

Harry is a good manager and will give it his best shot - but does he need to worry about 5 years time?

Isn't the whole club (ourselves included) getting exactly what we asked for?

Is the club's strategy really one it has chosen? on 11:21 - Dec 13 with 852 views

adhoc_qpr

It's all been an unmitigated disaster and with the benefit of hindsight it all looks like the warning signs were there the whole time and willfully ignored.

However, it's worth noting that with 3 or 4 small bits of luck it could have all been looking much rosier:

Hill's header drops under the bar vs Villa - +2pts
The linesman correctly flags Arteta offside - +1pt
The ball hits Faurlin but doesn't bounce in the goal vs Spurs - +1pt
Chelsea miss a goalline clearance from Zamora - +2pts

Obviously all speculative but 4 bits of luck and we're 6 points better off with 2 wins and not cut adrift.

Is the club's strategy really one it has chosen? on 12:05 - Dec 13 with 806 views

TacticalR

Is the club's strategy really one it has chosen? on 10:41 - Dec 13 by Phildo

"The manager forgot we had just stayed up by the skin of our arse and started to assemble a top 4 B team rather than a bottom 6 A team. Turns out there is a reason those boys were in the B team."

That's an interesting point. On paper the strategy seemed to make sense, because in theory the top 4 B team looked better than the bottom 6 A team. The top 4 B team would have had a lot more 'players you have heard of'.

Perhaps it explains why we often play better against the big teams? The problem is that we have ended up not skillful enough to beat the big teams, but not tough enough to beat the small teams.

"Did we notice - after all our boys had just been on a tour of the far east as if they were celebrating winning the world cup and we were amazed that Swansea had just thrashed us."

That should have warned us that we didn't have a team assembled for the task at hand. Hughes appeared to have heeded the warning, but his solution was to buy more top 4 B team players.

Air hostess clique

Is the club's strategy really one it has chosen? on 12:31 - Dec 13 with 797 views

BrianMcCarthy

Superb thread. Only just got around to reading it now. I still think we have a manager and squad capable of staying up, so poor are some of the other strugglers, but, like others, I despair of or situation should we go down.

To add a couple of supplementary questions to the OP's:-

What would the club's strategy be if we go down?

Is there one amongst us who thinks they will have one any different or any more long-term than the present one?

	"The opposite of love, after all, is not hate, but indifference."
Poll:	Player of the Year (so far)

Is the club's strategy really one it has chosen? on 12:35 - Dec 13 with 791 views

Northernr

Is the club's strategy really one it has chosen? on 12:05 - Dec 13 by TacticalR

I didn't watch the German friendly because I was away with work but Neil SI watched it and was panicking then because he said we were woeful and wasn't at all surprised that Swansea thrashed us.

Is the club's strategy really one it has chosen? on 16:04 - Dec 13 with 751 views

daveB

I still think we should wait and see where we are on january 1st plenty of points to be won in the next 2 weeks, if we go into January 9 or more points adrift then let the fire sale begin and plan for the championship, if, as i think it will be, we are 3/4 points adrift then get rid of a few but add quality in a few areas to keep us up this year, there is no point planning January until we've played these games imo.

Is the club's strategy really one it has chosen? on 19:43 - Dec 13 with 730 views

derbyhoop

Is the club's strategy really one it has chosen? on 12:31 - Dec 13 by BrianMcCarthy

I think the strategy will have to be different. Unless TF and the Mittals are prepared to throw a load more money down the drain, they'll have a clean up job to do on a par with Hurricane Sandy.

I've put an article together for AKUTRS called Consequences. I wrote it and it still makes me depressed.

Is the club's strategy really one it has chosen? on 23:55 - Dec 13 with 710 views

Trom

A lot of it is dependent on exactly how much money the club has behind it to absorb losses if we are relegated.

The ability to fund it is, of course, one thing but means nothing without the willingness to.

I'd like to hear some information from TF and the other directors on the ability to cope with a relegation.

A glimmer of hope is that Hughes seems to have put in place the right infrastructure. I personally have no insight but it seems to be perceived as a fact by enough people. Again can we maintain it if we are relegated.

So I'd like to hear some reassurances from the board right now.

Is the club's strategy really one it has chosen? on 07:02 - Dec 14 with 701 views

corse

Is the club's strategy really one it has chosen? on 17:00 - Dec 11 by Northernr

[Post edited 1 Jan 1970 1:00]

this. excellent. especially the mackay and poyet part.

Is the club's strategy really one it has chosen? on 09:48 - Dec 14 with 682 views

daveB

I like the idea of a Poyet or a Karl Robinson coming in but how well would they at the club with this squad and this big a job on, I think the club had to go for the most experienced hands they could find, similar to when they went for Warnock.

Is the club's strategy really one it has chosen? on 09:58 - Dec 14 with 678 views

isawqpratwcity

Is the club's strategy really one it has chosen? on 17:00 - Dec 11 by Northernr

[Post edited 1 Jan 1970 1:00]

Post of the year. Feel you got all the relevant bits in perspective.

That, and your bit on the Iceberg (Fulham preview), severely erode my optimism.

But still reckon we can do it...COUR's!!!!!!

Poll:

Deaths of Thatcher and Mandela this year: Sad or Glad?

Is the club's strategy really one it has chosen? on 10:04 - Dec 14 with 672 views

adhoc_qpr

Is the club's strategy really one it has chosen? on 09:48 - Dec 14 by daveB
I like the idea of a Poyet or a Karl Robinson coming in but how well would they at the club with this squad and this big a job on, I think the club had to go for the most experienced hands they could find, similar to when they went for Warnock.

I think the likes are Poyet and Mackay etc are ideal managers for a rebuilding job following relegation - but the trouble is attracting them away from their current clubs!

Assuming we go down, Brighton (well run club) and Cardiff (honeymoon phase of cash rich owners) are in far better shape than we are.

Others decent managers like Holloway and O'Driscoll have moved recently, Chris Powell and Kenny Jackett are doing well too but aren't proven quantities. Who else is there?

Really we have to hope the owners will stick around for at least one season post relegation to try and bounce back (best chance of getting their money back) and Redknapp also came into the job with his eyes open and is up for getting another promotion on his CV.

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