| JFH 18:16 - Dec 18 with 9461 views | traininvain |
Honest answer, do you think we would have been relegated under Hasselbaink?
The football wasn't great but I don't think we'd have gone down. Feels like a massive gamble / unnecessary risk to have sacked him and hired a manager who doesn't know this group of players.
Not calling for Holloway's head as that would clearly be ridiculous at this stage.
But still don't really understand the logic behind the decision to sack Hasselbaink mid season when we were not in the bottom three or even near.
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| JFH on 05:10 - Dec 20 with 1854 views | LadbrokeR |
The simple answer is who knows. I'll say this watching jimmys team was some of the worst football I have seen in many years at the Rangers. That said I do think that Jimmy would have managed more than zero points from our last five games. |  | | |
| JFH on 05:54 - Dec 20 with 1834 views | distortR |
| JFH on 23:16 - Dec 19 by isawqpratwcity |
And by 'dire' you mean, what, 'dull', 'uninspiring'? Surely not 'ineffective', which is what our last five games have been. At least JFH kept the point meter ticking over.
Hasselbaink's sacking isn't remotely defensible on the basis that you 'could see us going on a losing streak under him'.
It isn't even defensible on the basis of him alienating supporters unless you consider 'boring football' more aversive than relegation.
Warnock's sacking proved that dismissal, while a rational response to a developing set of circumstances, can easily bring in a new set of problems.
Sometimes I despair of this club and it's supporters. [Post edited 19 Dec 2016 23:18]
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I would have given JFH this season.
'Boring football' is acceptable to a degree if you are successful on the back of it, but i would argue that football should be entertaining.
I don't get across too often, and when i do it costs me too much money to sit there after 93 minutes thinking "That was boring, we were scared to go forward in numbers. Against preston". God knows, sometimes i feel for those who go week in week out.
So maybe when the fans start voting with their feet as opposed to mouthing off on social media, then actually, the chairman should be responsive? | | | |
| JFH on 06:28 - Dec 20 with 1817 views | isawqpratwcity |
| JFH on 05:54 - Dec 20 by distortR |
I would have given JFH this season.
'Boring football' is acceptable to a degree if you are successful on the back of it, but i would argue that football should be entertaining.
I don't get across too often, and when i do it costs me too much money to sit there after 93 minutes thinking "That was boring, we were scared to go forward in numbers. Against preston". God knows, sometimes i feel for those who go week in week out.
So maybe when the fans start voting with their feet as opposed to mouthing off on social media, then actually, the chairman should be responsive? |
Please, do not be apologetic for saying football should be entertaining. Of course it should. But it is also a competitive activity; that's why they keep score.
Which aspect dominates? Up to you. And to Tony, too. If he did choose to sack Hasselbaink only to find himself on a five game losing streak, do you think we could get a
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| JFH on 07:54 - Dec 20 with 1771 views | Hitch |
Don't ask me I thought Brexit and a Trump victory was impossible. Ever since Charlie left we have for the most part been rubbish. We broke the rules and now have very little spending power, the team reflects that. I hope Ollie can work some magic but I wouldn't bet my left one on it. We are a club without street smarts. But please no more changes, lets all join Captain Smith on the bridge. |  | | |
| JFH on 08:25 - Dec 20 with 1748 views | 2Thomas2Bowles |
I'm sure the Ollie haters will love this.
If JFH had lost 6 on the bounce, no one would be defending him and rightly sacked.
So why should Ollie be any different, no the face of it he should not, but it's just not as simple as that.
I feel no matter how much longer JFH could have been given he would not have won the fans over, the football was dreadful, people are talking about Ollie changing the team every week but so did JFH and JFH subs or lack of them showned he had no idea, just standing on the side line with his arms crossed
His lack of communication to the players on the pitch and his post match " it is what it is" showed he had no idea what to do.
Maybe he just realised these players were not up to it, maybe he really wanted out himself. there was no passion in his team or in his words, I'm glad he has gone.
Ollie is left with a dreadful mess to sort out, whether you like it or not, you have to recognize that and it would be the same for any new manager, those problems would not disappear with another manager.
We have made our bed now we just have to deal with it, hope he can bring in 2 or 3 loans (as any new manager would want) and ride out the storm. [Post edited 20 Dec 2016 8:29]
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| JFH on 09:29 - Dec 20 with 1713 views | Lblock |
We met an ex-player on the train back from a recent game
He was very candid and open when talking about the club and openly said most of the plays s did not like ODH but so far they like Ollie. His words were (on ODH) "he had to go".
I'm a bit suspect on the validity of his view as he was quite clearly still friendly with some current people at the club so opinion could be skewed.
One things for sure...... ODH and Teflon Les (that's not my one by the way) had to be taken away from another transfer window!!!!! I just hope Ollie can have some flex and is planning to get some lads in 1st of Jan and not the stupidity of Jim White time at the end. Hopefully he still has some good contacts and can drum up a Shamus Coleman or a Lee Camp young un on loan and spot some that could kick on like Matt Phillips
We really need a Glenn Murray who we know Ollie is a massive fan of but Bungles purse has been picked clean so I very much doubt anyone of that ilk will be incoming
The other nivirna moment would be if we could find some mug to take Sandra off our hands and all his wages. With that move alone we could finance THREE fantastic upper Championship to lower Premiershit players per week (excluding any fees)
It's a mess. Ollie has untangled this club in a mess before but this could get worse before it gets better |  |
| Cherish and enjoy life.... this ain't no dress rehearsal |
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| JFH on 10:52 - Dec 20 with 1677 views | newgolddream |
| JFH on 18:18 - Dec 18 by 2Thomas2Bowles |
Pointness question, he is gone get over it. |
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| JFH on 11:51 - Dec 20 with 1655 views | rsonist |
I honestly don't understand how people are struggling with this.
Start of the season we all said neither down nor up, transitional season midtable. (The powers that be also half thought that in this division, the playoffs are never too far out of reach if a team is modestly functional. Quite right too - they should be backing their own judgement in how they run the club, and let's not forget there is still a decent amount of money being spent).
Underpinning all that is the idea of progress - maybe it doesn't all click straight away but slowly we build towards success. Under JFH we all lost confidence in his capability to execute that, even as a young manager developing himself. We hire Holloway instead with a remit of uniting a disenchanted and poisonous fanbase (a spiritual thing but also the reality of season ticket sales etc) and avoiding stagnation by starting to extract value from the potential in the squad. It's not with a view to going up or avoiding relegation because those scenarios are quite reasonably seen as extremes of miracle and disaster.
Personally although it's certainly a rough start for Olly and I'm not certain how far he can really take us, I do not think we are in an impending disaster situation. We're still not going up and we're still not going down, same as we all said beginning of the season. Once again I repeat: relax you fannies. |  | | |
| JFH on 13:35 - Dec 20 with 1612 views | isawqpratwcity |
| JFH on 08:25 - Dec 20 by 2Thomas2Bowles |
I'm sure the Ollie haters will love this.
If JFH had lost 6 on the bounce, no one would be defending him and rightly sacked.
So why should Ollie be any different, no the face of it he should not, but it's just not as simple as that.
I feel no matter how much longer JFH could have been given he would not have won the fans over, the football was dreadful, people are talking about Ollie changing the team every week but so did JFH and JFH subs or lack of them showned he had no idea, just standing on the side line with his arms crossed
His lack of communication to the players on the pitch and his post match " it is what it is" showed he had no idea what to do.
Maybe he just realised these players were not up to it, maybe he really wanted out himself. there was no passion in his team or in his words, I'm glad he has gone.
Ollie is left with a dreadful mess to sort out, whether you like it or not, you have to recognize that and it would be the same for any new manager, those problems would not disappear with another manager.
We have made our bed now we just have to deal with it, hope he can bring in 2 or 3 loans (as any new manager would want) and ride out the storm. [Post edited 20 Dec 2016 8:29]
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"Ollie is left with a dreadful mess to sort out, whether you like it or not, you have to recognize that and it would be the same for any new manager, those problems would not disappear with another manager."
You make it sound like current form is merely a continuation of what was happening before. Be very assured that it is not. Be very assured that current form is much worse than before the change of manager.
JFH league results this season: WWLLWDLLDDWDWLLD (5-5-6)
Olly's: WLLLLL (1-0-5)
Knock yourself out arguing that it is not a large enough statistical sample, that it was a tough run of games, that some of those games were unlucky or that the universe hasn't yet realised that Olly is The Chosen One, but it still comes down to the fact that results are worse and the only change is the manager.
I still say that he should get a fair chance to show he is up to it, and I definitely haven't come to the conclusion yet that he isn't, but at least acknowledge how things stand.
For all his talk about passion and the rest, he wouldn't claim that results aren't important. Don't make this the emblem of the Holloway Supporters Association.
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| JFH on 13:37 - Dec 20 with 1600 views | PinnerPaul |
| JFH on 13:35 - Dec 20 by isawqpratwcity |
"Ollie is left with a dreadful mess to sort out, whether you like it or not, you have to recognize that and it would be the same for any new manager, those problems would not disappear with another manager."
You make it sound like current form is merely a continuation of what was happening before. Be very assured that it is not. Be very assured that current form is much worse than before the change of manager.
JFH league results this season: WWLLWDLLDDWDWLLD (5-5-6)
Olly's: WLLLLL (1-0-5)
Knock yourself out arguing that it is not a large enough statistical sample, that it was a tough run of games, that some of those games were unlucky or that the universe hasn't yet realised that Olly is The Chosen One, but it still comes down to the fact that results are worse and the only change is the manager.
I still say that he should get a fair chance to show he is up to it, and I definitely haven't come to the conclusion yet that he isn't, but at least acknowledge how things stand.
For all his talk about passion and the rest, he wouldn't claim that results aren't important. Don't make this the emblem of the Holloway Supporters Association.
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That's one of the most sensible posts I've read on the subject | | | |
| JFH on 13:40 - Dec 20 with 1596 views | 2Thomas2Bowles |
Cherry picking but it's ok I do it myself
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| JFH on 14:56 - Dec 20 with 1561 views | bosh67 |
Most people seem to have forgotten that over half of this board wanted JFH sacked after the newspaper sting. Even though he hadn't done much wrong apart from be a bit stupid. Add the 6 nil smashing by Newcastle and one of the worst performances ever against Brentford it wasn't going too well. The Fulham result was a fluke and Forrest beat us up badly as well. Both games were wholly reliant on Smithies performing some miracles, otherwise we would have been caned in both games. Like everyone else, we will never know if he would have kept us up, but there are players he brought in that were either not given game time, played out of position or just not ready for this level. Difficult to blame the current manager for that. However, in JFH's defence, players like Bidwell and Lynch etc had bad injuries to get over, so it wasn't easy for him either.
Bottom line is that our squad is a very very average one, with little confidence. That is hard to turn around. On the plus side, they aren't a squad of mercenaries, so Ollie does have a bit more of a chance on that side. |  |
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| JFH on 15:11 - Dec 20 with 1552 views | isawqpratwcity |
| JFH on 13:40 - Dec 20 by 2Thomas2Bowles |
Cherry picking but it's ok I do it myself
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Well, you seem to have not addressed any point I've made, let alone cherry-picked it, but I will address your post in more detail if you wish.
"I feel no matter how much longer JFH could have been given he would not have won the fans over, the football was dreadful, people are talking about Ollie changing the team every week but so did JFH and JFH subs or lack of them showned he had no idea, just standing on the side line with his arms crossed
"His lack of communication to the players on the pitch and his post match " it is what it is" showed he had no idea what to do."
It doesn't matter at all whether you think he would have won the fans over or not. I don't agree with you but that doesn't matter either. And 'dreadful' football is a subjective assessment lacking clear criteria. It's importance is undeniable but until football is won or lost on the basis of figure skating-type judges holding up their evaluation point score to determine the winner, we might want to keep that particular performance indicator in the background. People still attend to see their team win, not lose gracefully.
And as for what he does on the sideline, or in the press conference, well none of that means anything. He could be Helen Keller in a cardboard box left in the dressing room for all I care. It definitely does not show, as you argue, that he "had no idea what to do."
The results show whether or not he had any idea on what to do, and right now, Holloway comes off much worse in the comparison. And before you say you acknowledged that at the start of your post, let me remind you that you said:
"If JFH had lost 6 on the bounce, no one would be defending him and rightly sacked.
"So why should Ollie be any different, no the face of it he should not, but it's just not as simple as that."
But you then start arguing why JFH deserved to be sacked, completely ignoring the fact that it's Holloway, not JFH, that has the appalling record that needs defending against calls for his head.
"Maybe he just realised these players were not up to it, maybe he really wanted out himself."
Well, the players were more up to it before the change of manager than after, apparently. And spare us your 'insights' into JFH's managerial angst.
I'm not changing my mind on the need for a decent chance for him to settle in, but your bullshit arguments aren't lifting my estimation of Holloway even one inch. Results speak volumes.
And, yes, I'd like to see him get the chance to get in 2 or 3 loans, too. Yes, I want the bloke to succeed. But they shouldn't be knee-jerk, ill-considered 'names' of dubious value. They should come as identified decent candidates whose cost can be accomodated within our stringent financial plan, just as it has been with Ramsey and Hasselbaink. | |
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| JFH on 16:34 - Dec 20 with 1512 views | SimonJames |
| JFH on 13:35 - Dec 20 by isawqpratwcity |
"Ollie is left with a dreadful mess to sort out, whether you like it or not, you have to recognize that and it would be the same for any new manager, those problems would not disappear with another manager."
You make it sound like current form is merely a continuation of what was happening before. Be very assured that it is not. Be very assured that current form is much worse than before the change of manager.
JFH league results this season: WWLLWDLLDDWDWLLD (5-5-6)
Olly's: WLLLLL (1-0-5)
Knock yourself out arguing that it is not a large enough statistical sample, that it was a tough run of games, that some of those games were unlucky or that the universe hasn't yet realised that Olly is The Chosen One, but it still comes down to the fact that results are worse and the only change is the manager.
I still say that he should get a fair chance to show he is up to it, and I definitely haven't come to the conclusion yet that he isn't, but at least acknowledge how things stand.
For all his talk about passion and the rest, he wouldn't claim that results aren't important. Don't make this the emblem of the Holloway Supporters Association.
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A larger statistical sample would be that since he left Blackpool four years ago he has been in charge of 114 games at three different clubs and his results have been pants :
- W:29 D:33 L:52
At an average of 1.05 points per game, unless he ups his batting average we're likely to finish the season on 48 points or less. |  |
| 100% of people who drink water will die. |
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| JFH on 17:49 - Dec 20 with 1485 views | 2Thomas2Bowles |
| JFH on 15:11 - Dec 20 by isawqpratwcity |
Well, you seem to have not addressed any point I've made, let alone cherry-picked it, but I will address your post in more detail if you wish.
"I feel no matter how much longer JFH could have been given he would not have won the fans over, the football was dreadful, people are talking about Ollie changing the team every week but so did JFH and JFH subs or lack of them showned he had no idea, just standing on the side line with his arms crossed
"His lack of communication to the players on the pitch and his post match " it is what it is" showed he had no idea what to do."
It doesn't matter at all whether you think he would have won the fans over or not. I don't agree with you but that doesn't matter either. And 'dreadful' football is a subjective assessment lacking clear criteria. It's importance is undeniable but until football is won or lost on the basis of figure skating-type judges holding up their evaluation point score to determine the winner, we might want to keep that particular performance indicator in the background. People still attend to see their team win, not lose gracefully.
And as for what he does on the sideline, or in the press conference, well none of that means anything. He could be Helen Keller in a cardboard box left in the dressing room for all I care. It definitely does not show, as you argue, that he "had no idea what to do."
The results show whether or not he had any idea on what to do, and right now, Holloway comes off much worse in the comparison. And before you say you acknowledged that at the start of your post, let me remind you that you said:
"If JFH had lost 6 on the bounce, no one would be defending him and rightly sacked.
"So why should Ollie be any different, no the face of it he should not, but it's just not as simple as that."
But you then start arguing why JFH deserved to be sacked, completely ignoring the fact that it's Holloway, not JFH, that has the appalling record that needs defending against calls for his head.
"Maybe he just realised these players were not up to it, maybe he really wanted out himself."
Well, the players were more up to it before the change of manager than after, apparently. And spare us your 'insights' into JFH's managerial angst.
I'm not changing my mind on the need for a decent chance for him to settle in, but your bullshit arguments aren't lifting my estimation of Holloway even one inch. Results speak volumes.
And, yes, I'd like to see him get the chance to get in 2 or 3 loans, too. Yes, I want the bloke to succeed. But they shouldn't be knee-jerk, ill-considered 'names' of dubious value. They should come as identified decent candidates whose cost can be accomodated within our stringent financial plan, just as it has been with Ramsey and Hasselbaink. |
It's all about opinions, I've said mine you have said yours, does it matter very much...no
But thanks for the lecture, I''ll save reading it in my old age , I'm sure in years to come it will hold me in good stead if I can even remember my name by then or maybe I'll wallpaper the wall with it.
Thanks buddy [Post edited 20 Dec 2016 17:58]
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| JFH on 17:51 - Dec 20 with 1481 views | 2Thomas2Bowles |
| JFH on 14:56 - Dec 20 by bosh67 |
Most people seem to have forgotten that over half of this board wanted JFH sacked after the newspaper sting. Even though he hadn't done much wrong apart from be a bit stupid. Add the 6 nil smashing by Newcastle and one of the worst performances ever against Brentford it wasn't going too well. The Fulham result was a fluke and Forrest beat us up badly as well. Both games were wholly reliant on Smithies performing some miracles, otherwise we would have been caned in both games. Like everyone else, we will never know if he would have kept us up, but there are players he brought in that were either not given game time, played out of position or just not ready for this level. Difficult to blame the current manager for that. However, in JFH's defence, players like Bidwell and Lynch etc had bad injuries to get over, so it wasn't easy for him either.
Bottom line is that our squad is a very very average one, with little confidence. That is hard to turn around. On the plus side, they aren't a squad of mercenaries, so Ollie does have a bit more of a chance on that side. |
Now here's a man of not to many words.
Good on you good Sir. [Post edited 20 Dec 2016 19:12]
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| JFH on 21:41 - Dec 20 with 1435 views | Jigsore |
if we lost the next 3 do you reckon Holloway would walk? you'd have say Ipswich and Wolves are very winnable games in the 50/50 way most Championship games tend to be |  |
| “The thing about football - the important thing about football - is that it is not just about football.†|
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| JFH on 00:56 - Dec 21 with 1369 views | Hooped_Pullie |
| JFH on 21:41 - Dec 20 by Jigsore |
if we lost the next 3 do you reckon Holloway would walk? you'd have say Ipswich and Wolves are very winnable games in the 50/50 way most Championship games tend to be |
Not so much about the next three, more about the next five.
In this division, even the weakest teams fluke the odd win - we might 'do a Fulham' at the Amex. | | | |
| JFH on 01:50 - Dec 21 with 1358 views | isawqpratwcity |
| JFH on 17:49 - Dec 20 by 2Thomas2Bowles |
It's all about opinions, I've said mine you have said yours, does it matter very much...no
But thanks for the lecture, I''ll save reading it in my old age , I'm sure in years to come it will hold me in good stead if I can even remember my name by then or maybe I'll wallpaper the wall with it.
Thanks buddy [Post edited 20 Dec 2016 17:58]
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You still haven't attempted to answer any of the points I made against your posts. You make ridiculous claims and then run from backing them up.
At least you're not accusing me of cherry picking. | |
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| JFH on 01:51 - Dec 21 with 1356 views | isawqpratwcity |
| JFH on 17:51 - Dec 20 by 2Thomas2Bowles |
Now here's a man of not to many words.
Good on you good Sir. [Post edited 20 Dec 2016 19:12]
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But you're not above making snide, back-handed comments. | |
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| JFH on 11:02 - Dec 21 with 1283 views | 2Thomas2Bowles |
I'll get back to you at some point, chill out. | |
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| JFH on 13:37 - Dec 21 with 1244 views | TGRRRSSS |
What people seem to be forgetting is the main difference recently has been we've been punished for mistakes that we weren't getting punished for as much earlier in the season (certain games excepted).
I was glad JFH went as I felt things would get worse and the newspaper sting suggested a lack of focus given our frailties he ought to have been working on sorting out not planning speaking tours in the far east!
Yes things have seemingly got worse but all that's really changed is the punishment is fitting the crime in terms of mistakes at the back.
This could easily have happened with JFH. |  | | |
| JFH on 14:00 - Dec 21 with 1229 views | PinnerPaul |
| JFH on 13:37 - Dec 21 by TGRRRSSS |
What people seem to be forgetting is the main difference recently has been we've been punished for mistakes that we weren't getting punished for as much earlier in the season (certain games excepted).
I was glad JFH went as I felt things would get worse and the newspaper sting suggested a lack of focus given our frailties he ought to have been working on sorting out not planning speaking tours in the far east!
Yes things have seemingly got worse but all that's really changed is the punishment is fitting the crime in terms of mistakes at the back.
This could easily have happened with JFH. |
Nice try!
But as Clive said, (nearly) every game this season a case could be made for all 3 results.
Fine margins in all our games - classic example is Norwich, Chery pen goes in - that could have been a rout, as it was, as Ollie admitted, "We nearly didn't win that one"
Someone mentioned "JFH games" v Fulham and Forest as "lucky" but I thought we were better team in 2nd half in both those.
You can spin it to suit your own agenda - I think JFH wasn't given enough time, but delighted when IH was appointed.
But last 5 results show we have gone backwards - difficult to argue anything else IMHO. | | | |
| JFH on 14:42 - Dec 21 with 1209 views | rsonist |
To say we've gone backwards is an exaggeration, we weren't going anywhere with JFH. We're not drastically worse now than we were before, and this is with a new manager coming in trying to get across different things. | | | |
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