| The Squad 2022-2023 02:05 - Jul 25 with 8396 views | Kerouac |
Not looking too clever is it? A bit of a dog's breakfast...
- Crap keeper (without decent competition?)
- Rubbish Wing-backs
- Full-backs? Manning can play Left-back, Lati doesn't seem up to RB and Naughton is too old to deal with pacey wingers.
PLUS - Naughton, Lati and Manning have been playing their football at CB under Martin.
Sorinola up to it? He'd better be.
- CB? Wood looks decent, could partner Cabango and Darling? Darling had better be up to it given the outlay. Worrying signs in pre-season though, hope he comes good.
If we play 3 centre-backs we have lots of options and cover...but you can only play that way with decent wing-backs. We don't seem to have any.
- DM/CM
Should be fine with Joey and Fulton (who has never let us down but by the sounds of it is out of the door). I guess Harvey White is the specialist on Loan to replace Fulton as back up. With Grimes partnering Allen. Walsh seems to be a waste of space (nice little passer, but never fit). I prefer Ntcham at attacking midfield but hopefully he'll be able to do a job at CM if needed...don't like him in the tackle though
Wingers
- We don't have any except Garrick...although I'm convinced Joseph could do a good job there...unfortunately it seems that neither of them, nor Whittaker, will be given any game time there.
Attacking Midfield
- We have 3 players who can do a good job there...I guess Patterson is going to be used wider, he doesn't look comfortable there though. No pace.
Striker
- We have two top strikers for this division. I will be amazed if Piroe is not gone by September though. If Piroe goes presumably we'll have money to replace him but I don't think we'll be fortunate to pick up a similar player to Piroe's quality though...odds are against it. More likely to pick up somebody who used to play for MK Dons.
Joseph could step up and Whittaker has the raw talent.
Cullen, unfortunately, looks like he could use a move to Newport and build up from there...still not writing the boy off altogether though.
All in all, my assessment is that we are weaker this year than last year. The manager has not addressed the squad's weaknesses and there does not seem to be much of what you'd call a coherent plan...please prove me wrong, I've bought 2 season tickets, I would like to watch my club play competitive games throughout the season and not be near the relegation end...but honestly, this squad looks like they belong down the bottom (once Piroe goes)
SQUAD
Manager
Russell Martin
Goalkeeper
1) Andrew Fisher (ex-Mk Dons)
??) Who is the back up keeper?
Right-Back
22) Joel Latibeaudiere
26) Kyle Naughton
19) Tivonge Rushesha
Left-Back
3) Ryan Manning
29) Matthew Sorinola - £350k Union SG (ex-MK Dons)
Centre-Back
5) Ben Cabango
16) Brandon Cooper
23) Nathan Wood - £300k (Middlesboro)
6) Harry Darling - £2.3m (Mk Dons)
Defensive Midfield
4) Jay Fulton
7) Joe Allen - £Free (Stoke City)
Harvey White - LOAN?
Centre Midfield
8) Matt Grimes
28) Liam Walsh
Attacking Midfield
10) Olivier Ntcham
12) Jamie Patterson
45) Cameron Congreve
31) Oliver Cooper
Right-Wing
41) Jordan Garrick
14) Kyle Joseph
Left-Wing
11) Morgan Whittaker
Striker
17) Joel Piroe
9) Michael Obafemi
20) Liam Cullen
Most promising youngsters that haven't had a go yet...
48) Joel Cotterill
25) Lewis Webb
35) Lincoln McFadyen
36) Ben Lloyd
37) Daniel Williams
38) Cameron Evans ? (Did he go to Swindon?)
Offski
13) Steven Benda
2) Ryan Bennett
15) Nathaniel Ogbeta
Gone
Flynn Downes - £10m
Korey Smith - £Free
Ben Hamer - £Free
Yann Dhanda - £Free [Post edited 26 Jul 2022 18:14]
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| The Squad 2022-2023 on 06:49 - Jul 25 with 4121 views | angryjack |
Agree..think we going to be bottom half... |  | | |
| The Squad 2022-2023 on 07:47 - Jul 25 with 4080 views | magicdaps10 |
A bit of work to be done, nice to see that others can see that there is still work to be done......some people are getting carried away with a top 8 finish but you highlight the issues in the squad that suggest that will not be the case.
Couple of decent players in, Piroe going allowing us a bit of dough to get a replacement, right sided defender, young midfielder on loan and a creative 10 will see the squad depth vastly improved.
I have all confidence that there will be an improvement on last season, it might not what people want but we will certainly be going in the right direction. |  |
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| The Squad 2022-2023 on 08:17 - Jul 25 with 4028 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| The Squad 2022-2023 on 07:47 - Jul 25 by magicdaps10 |
A bit of work to be done, nice to see that others can see that there is still work to be done......some people are getting carried away with a top 8 finish but you highlight the issues in the squad that suggest that will not be the case.
Couple of decent players in, Piroe going allowing us a bit of dough to get a replacement, right sided defender, young midfielder on loan and a creative 10 will see the squad depth vastly improved.
I have all confidence that there will be an improvement on last season, it might not what people want but we will certainly be going in the right direction. |
We should be top 6, but Martin is making a pigs ear of it.
Shipping out Benda and bringing in Fisher, not getting a wingback yet shipping out the likes of Bidwell.
Piroe, Obafemi, Allen, Naughton, Pato, Grimes, Cabango, Ntcham and Darling.
That’s a serious, serious side.
But it seems the predictions are coming true of certain quarters subtly dumbing down expectations. Remember the year of transition before attacking the league… now it’s a year of transition to have roughly more of the same.
What joy. |  |
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| The Squad 2022-2023 on 08:20 - Jul 25 with 4051 views | STID2017 |
RM has gone on record again as saying needs to be some movement out before more come in over the next few weeks.
So watching with some trepidation the Piroe and Obafemi situations, and with interest who may come in.
The potential mooted sale of the club may also have a bearing on hod the squad looks come the end of the window.
Still a work in progress atm. |  |
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| The Squad 2022-2023 on 08:27 - Jul 25 with 4018 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| The Squad 2022-2023 on 08:20 - Jul 25 by STID2017 |
RM has gone on record again as saying needs to be some movement out before more come in over the next few weeks.
So watching with some trepidation the Piroe and Obafemi situations, and with interest who may come in.
The potential mooted sale of the club may also have a bearing on hod the squad looks come the end of the window.
Still a work in progress atm. |
That was always going to be the case, it’s not been sprung upon us.
I made the point 12 months ago that we will lose key players every season, so pretending we are building towards something is futile, because by its very nature it will never be built.
You get judged on the here and now and he is the 30th longest serving manager in the football league currently according to a post on here this week.
He needs to deliver, no more work in progress, no more process, no more building - the time to deliver is now. | |
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| The Squad 2022-2023 on 08:39 - Jul 25 with 4032 views | STID2017 |
| The Squad 2022-2023 on 08:27 - Jul 25 by Dr_Parnassus |
That was always going to be the case, it’s not been sprung upon us.
I made the point 12 months ago that we will lose key players every season, so pretending we are building towards something is futile, because by its very nature it will never be built.
You get judged on the here and now and he is the 30th longest serving manager in the football league currently according to a post on here this week.
He needs to deliver, no more work in progress, no more process, no more building - the time to deliver is now. |
Not quite the case as the nature of the beast in this WC year is between now and the end of the window we play a minimum of eight matches ( 7 league games plus Oxford).
Plus hopefully a 2nd round game squeezed in ( not sure of the date ).
During that time he could see key players ( Piroe, Obafemi and Cobango ) ripped from his team.
This could happen soon or on the last day - who knows ?
In the meantime we face an earlier start to the season.
So not quite the same | |
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| The Squad 2022-2023 on 08:40 - Jul 25 with 4022 views | onehunglow |
Just as well Ive seen sirjonalot's headline . | |
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| The Squad 2022-2023 on 08:46 - Jul 25 with 4016 views | STID2017 |
| The Squad 2022-2023 on 08:40 - Jul 25 by onehunglow |
Just as well Ive seen sirjonalot's headline . |
Not sure you have been overly abusive over the past few weeks ?
Negative and with unusual views I would disagree with, yes.
But not abusive | |
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| The Squad 2022-2023 on 08:49 - Jul 25 with 4010 views | nantywatcher |
Very good analysis, but I feel your conclusion might be short of what could be a decent season. So,so much depends on those first 4/5 games; a good start and top ten is possible., a poor start and I'm not sure this manager can turn things around. | | | |
| The Squad 2022-2023 on 09:00 - Jul 25 with 3993 views | onehunglow |
| The Squad 2022-2023 on 08:46 - Jul 25 by STID2017 |
Not sure you have been overly abusive over the past few weeks ?
Negative and with unusual views I would disagree with, yes.
But not abusive |
Morning STID
I am all for debate.I might not like what others opine but in my own way I respect it.
A positive is that we ,as a group of fans ,and we are,still have passion and care;we died in the 80s because too many didn't .
I both love and hate the Swans. I have no choice,contrary to what some say,I can't walk away. I am not going to any games this season if I can help it as I have lost my companion that used and wifey had enough with PS and all that brought.
I've seen much but right now I see our position in as dismal a light as the bad days of the 80s-almost. We could seriously tumble under this coach if he is not replaced. Now ,that is as I see it. If somebody wants to take issue then they can DM me and this site can prosper.
Life is a journey and don't worry too much about the destination.Enjoy the ride. | |
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| The Squad 2022-2023 on 09:13 - Jul 25 with 3975 views | STID2017 |
| The Squad 2022-2023 on 09:00 - Jul 25 by onehunglow |
Morning STID
I am all for debate.I might not like what others opine but in my own way I respect it.
A positive is that we ,as a group of fans ,and we are,still have passion and care;we died in the 80s because too many didn't .
I both love and hate the Swans. I have no choice,contrary to what some say,I can't walk away. I am not going to any games this season if I can help it as I have lost my companion that used and wifey had enough with PS and all that brought.
I've seen much but right now I see our position in as dismal a light as the bad days of the 80s-almost. We could seriously tumble under this coach if he is not replaced. Now ,that is as I see it. If somebody wants to take issue then they can DM me and this site can prosper.
Life is a journey and don't worry too much about the destination.Enjoy the ride. |
The last bit also applies to Swans ( and most sides apart from the chosen few ) .
For most clubs their history is lots of ups, downs and mediocrity with highlights (promotions, cups, great matches)!in between.
Just enjoy what you can | |
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| The Squad 2022-2023 on 09:16 - Jul 25 with 3947 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| The Squad 2022-2023 on 08:39 - Jul 25 by STID2017 |
Not quite the case as the nature of the beast in this WC year is between now and the end of the window we play a minimum of eight matches ( 7 league games plus Oxford).
Plus hopefully a 2nd round game squeezed in ( not sure of the date ).
During that time he could see key players ( Piroe, Obafemi and Cobango ) ripped from his team.
This could happen soon or on the last day - who knows ?
In the meantime we face an earlier start to the season.
So not quite the same |
It’s always the case. The year Cooper took over we lost McBurnie and James, second year we lost Brewster and Gallagher. This is nothing new.
Building in football is a fallacy, contracts are short and so is the life span of a player at your club. If you have to rebuild everytime someone leaves, you will always be rebuilding.
It’s used as an excuse as and when it suits.
We wrote off a whole season for this. The time has come to deliver.
Playoffs or failure. | |
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| The Squad 2022-2023 on 09:18 - Jul 25 with 3957 views | onehunglow |
| The Squad 2022-2023 on 09:13 - Jul 25 by STID2017 |
The last bit also applies to Swans ( and most sides apart from the chosen few ) .
For most clubs their history is lots of ups, downs and mediocrity with highlights (promotions, cups, great matches)!in between.
Just enjoy what you can |
Duw,it's hard | |
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| The Squad 2022-2023 on 10:29 - Jul 25 with 3900 views | howenjack |
| The Squad 2022-2023 on 09:18 - Jul 25 by onehunglow |
Duw,it's hard |
It's harder than they will ever know........ .and if a ham was underground would it be 10 bob a pound .. and the pit head baths is a supermarket now. | | | |
| The Squad 2022-2023 on 11:19 - Jul 25 with 3852 views | Catullus |
Fisher isdefintely weaker than Hamer, as a traditional keeper goes anyway. We have strengthened at CB so maybe that will help Fisher.
The only major loss thus far is Downes but we got Joe back so it may be like for like.
We have brought in a wing back though I'd prefer we had to proper wide midfielders and used our CDM's to help out the defence, dropping in when needed, martin pushes the wing backs too far forwar so they can't get back to defend. They may as well be wingers.
I'm not sure the squad is weaker over all, I don;t see a great deal of change. The big weakness is the over insistence of retaining possession and playing silly football in our own third. it's a lot of pointless possession at a snails pace that causes us problems. Having revised my opinion of Cooper, I think he'd have done better than martin last season and would do better this season because he plays to his squads strengths and doesn't try to shoehorn players in. | |
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| The Squad 2022-2023 on 13:34 - Jul 25 with 3775 views | howenjack |
| The Squad 2022-2023 on 11:19 - Jul 25 by Catullus |
Fisher isdefintely weaker than Hamer, as a traditional keeper goes anyway. We have strengthened at CB so maybe that will help Fisher.
The only major loss thus far is Downes but we got Joe back so it may be like for like.
We have brought in a wing back though I'd prefer we had to proper wide midfielders and used our CDM's to help out the defence, dropping in when needed, martin pushes the wing backs too far forwar so they can't get back to defend. They may as well be wingers.
I'm not sure the squad is weaker over all, I don;t see a great deal of change. The big weakness is the over insistence of retaining possession and playing silly football in our own third. it's a lot of pointless possession at a snails pace that causes us problems. Having revised my opinion of Cooper, I think he'd have done better than martin last season and would do better this season because he plays to his squads strengths and doesn't try to shoehorn players in. |
Agree as far as keeping possession close to your own goal - it just invites trouble .We should learn from other sports like rugby- teams very rarely pass the ball close to their own try line they kick it down field or into touch because they don't want to risk a knock on and scrum ball to the opposition 5 yards from their own line. It would be better for us if there was an unwritten rule that said if you are 20 yards from your own goal belt it downfield or into touch . Years ago kids were taught never to pass the ball across their own penalty area now look where we are. Football like rugby is an invasion game if you play silly games close to your own goal or try line you will win silly prizes . | | | |
| The Squad 2022-2023 on 15:33 - Jul 25 with 3681 views | Joesus_Of_Narbereth |
First team looks fine but beyond that we’re almost dipping into the under 12s. |  |
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| The Squad 2022-2023 on 16:58 - Jul 25 with 3604 views | KeithHaynes |
| The Squad 2022-2023 on 07:47 - Jul 25 by magicdaps10 |
A bit of work to be done, nice to see that others can see that there is still work to be done......some people are getting carried away with a top 8 finish but you highlight the issues in the squad that suggest that will not be the case.
Couple of decent players in, Piroe going allowing us a bit of dough to get a replacement, right sided defender, young midfielder on loan and a creative 10 will see the squad depth vastly improved.
I have all confidence that there will be an improvement on last season, it might not what people want but we will certainly be going in the right direction. |
I’m not sure what it is this season but I just don’t see this squad as better than we have had in the past few seasons. Must be my toothache and constant atrial fibrillation that’s causing me to be so unusually negative. |  |
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| The Squad 2022-2023 on 17:01 - Jul 25 with 3593 views | KeithHaynes |
| The Squad 2022-2023 on 09:16 - Jul 25 by Dr_Parnassus |
It’s always the case. The year Cooper took over we lost McBurnie and James, second year we lost Brewster and Gallagher. This is nothing new.
Building in football is a fallacy, contracts are short and so is the life span of a player at your club. If you have to rebuild everytime someone leaves, you will always be rebuilding.
It’s used as an excuse as and when it suits.
We wrote off a whole season for this. The time has come to deliver.
Playoffs or failure. |
This I’m beginning to agree with.
Steve Cooper at Forest proved it.
Hopefully now the fear Martin talks about and the free reign to be brave actually comes together this season. | |
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| The Squad 2022-2023 on 17:12 - Jul 25 with 3576 views | vetchonian |
| The Squad 2022-2023 on 16:58 - Jul 25 by KeithHaynes |
I’m not sure what it is this season but I just don’t see this squad as better than we have had in the past few seasons. Must be my toothache and constant atrial fibrillation that’s causing me to be so unusually negative. |
When did we have two players capable of scoring 20+ goals each like Piroe and Obafemi,we have supposedly brought in quality in Darling wi have Cabango who is ever improving, brought in experience in Allen, Grimes and Fulton were our midfield axis for the two seasons we reached the playoffs to which we have added Pato and Natcham...Naughton is still as reliable as ever...might be a tad short in depth but that has been for ever the case since relegation. Congrave and Oli Cooper look good prospects and we still have Kyle Joseph, | |
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| The Squad 2022-2023 on 17:25 - Jul 25 with 3567 views | Kerouac |
| The Squad 2022-2023 on 15:33 - Jul 25 by Joesus_Of_Narbereth |
First team looks fine but beyond that we’re almost dipping into the under 12s. |
I agree, sort of, not sure the first XI is fine.
To me we are just about able to put out a competitive XI with a weak bench.
This is the best I can come up with...
Option 1 -
4-3-3
-------------------------------Fisher ----------------------------------
------------------- Cabango --------- Darling ----------------------
Naughton ----------------------------------------------- Manning
---------------------- Allen ---------- Grimes ----------------------
------------------------------ Ntcham --------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------- Obafemi ----------------------- Patterson -----------
-------------------------------- Piroe ----------------------------------
Subs: Latibeaudiere (RB/CB), Wood (CB/LB), Fulton (DM), Sorinola (LWB), Garrick (RWB), Congreve (CAM), Joseph (ST
Option 2 -
3-5-2
-------------------------------Fisher ----------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------- Naughton -------------------------------
-------------- Cabango ------------------ Wood -------------------
------------------------------ Allen -----------------------------------
Garrick -------- Ntcham ---------- Grimes------------ Manning
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------- Obafemi -------- Piroe --------------------------
Subs: Latibeaudiere (RB/CB), Darling (CB), Fulton (DM), Sorinola (LWB), Patterson (CAM), Congreve (CAM), Joseph (ST/RWB)
Morgan Whittaker is the strongest player not to make either bench.
If we lose Piroe or if Grimes/Allen picked up a nasty injury?
We are screwed.
Also there is no width and no pace other than Obafemi's pace....oh and I nearly forgot, our goalkeeper is a clown.
FLAWS
Option 1
- Our goalkeeper is a clown
- Naughton doesn't have the pace to deal with young wingers in the Championship anymore (he can cope at sweeper because he is central, facing the play, is intelligent and sees everything...he has the extra yard in his brain). At full-back he will get exposed one on one against pace and be forced to bring them down = cards and 10 men etc.
- Midfield. Allen is excellent but is getting on, has looked off the pace playing for Wales for me. He will need rotating and subbing on occasion. Fulton is solid enough. The White loan actually makes some sense.
Ntcham is injury prone and hasn't looked fit last season, although he can play. He is weak in the tackle and is not defensively minded, doesn't anticipate danger...as the attacking midfielder he is fine, but I see some counting him as a CM...if he has to play CM for a spell we will be weakened.
- Piroe is likely to go...Martin is also likely to play him deeper instead of leading the line, where he is best. We should be looking to use Obafemi's pace in the channels...we won't do this though, 'cos Martin.
Patterson seems to be a confidence player and a stroppy sod. He has ability and is creative...he also has little pace and has a tendency to go into his shell and play safe passes when he is not feeling it. I don't trust him.
It would be nice if Congreve could take over and hit the ground running, but I don't get why everybody is assuming this will be the case. We can't count on it.
Option 2
- Our goalkeeper is a clown
- Our Centre-backs look stronger here and we have depth...BUT...
- We have no wing-backs worthy of the name. Ogbeta might have been able to adapt to this level but Martin knows best  .
Garrick is the most natural player we have that fits the RWB role but we seem determined to waste years of developing another player before getting shot without giving them a run in the side. It seems to be how we roll.
Joseph, I am convinced could be taught to do a decent job there, but he is another who is not getting a look in.
Manning can play left-back, looks comfortable in midfield, is useful in forward areas, likes a dip and can score...but he doesn't have genuine pace ( he has also been playing CB under Martin so will take time to get good at the role.
Sorinola looks crap. Prove me wrong son, I would love it if you do.
- We have depth at Attacking midfield but it is likely that Martin will stick Patterson out on the left in a formation like this...he won't do a good job there, he doesn't have the tools and it wastes what he is good at. Patterson is best inbetween the lines linking up with strikers.
- Again, two top strikers for our division, but one is likely heading out the door and the other one, Obafemi, relies on Piroe more than most realise.
I do think Joseph could step up here and do a decent job here but he, nor anyone we sign to replace Piroe is likely to fill Piroe's boots.
Whittaker is a good option coming off the bench up front but has not been used so far and is most likely out the door.
Conclusion
I know that some seem to be excited and think we're going to have a shot at going up this year but I just don't see it.
We haven't changed anything tactically with the 3-4-2-1 formation Martin prefers. We haven't addressed the issues we had other than buying 2 centre-backs (but what seems to be overlooked is that we have kept Latibeaudiere who doesn't seem to fit in at right-back or centre-back anymore...not slagging the bloke, I think he can cut it at this level...it's just that we have overstocked at CB and not addressed our issues at wing-back, wing or goalkeeper.
If you try the same things over and over why would you expect a different result, I don't understand...but hopefully a miracle will happen. [Post edited 25 Jul 2022 17:52]
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| The Squad 2022-2023 on 17:33 - Jul 25 with 3548 views | magicdaps10 |
| The Squad 2022-2023 on 16:58 - Jul 25 by KeithHaynes |
I’m not sure what it is this season but I just don’t see this squad as better than we have had in the past few seasons. Must be my toothache and constant atrial fibrillation that’s causing me to be so unusually negative. |
I have more confidence this season than last but that's hardly a suprise, we were left in an absolute mess and taking a few things in consideration were always going to be playing catch up atleast.
Financial restrictions is playing a big part thus season, covid seems to be catching up financially with some teams struggling more than others, we have a couple of big holes to fill in the starting line up and we need to move out before we can get in......thats the toothache the club are struggling with.
I think we will see an improvement, the 3 relegated teams plus WBA, Boro, Sunderland, Sheff Utd will be strong contenders plus the odd suprise package( this is what we need to be). I can't see us competing with the 7 I have mentioned(hopefully wrong) so we have to make sure we are in the group of teams on the tail of those mentioned.
Of course there will be suprise teams in both directions of the league, we have a young squad with lots of potential and hopefully with the experienced Allen in there we could push on a little bit more than is expected and hover close to the play offs.... Big ask and we will see how it goes. | |
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| The Squad 2022-2023 on 21:26 - Jul 25 with 3430 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| The Squad 2022-2023 on 17:33 - Jul 25 by magicdaps10 |
I have more confidence this season than last but that's hardly a suprise, we were left in an absolute mess and taking a few things in consideration were always going to be playing catch up atleast.
Financial restrictions is playing a big part thus season, covid seems to be catching up financially with some teams struggling more than others, we have a couple of big holes to fill in the starting line up and we need to move out before we can get in......thats the toothache the club are struggling with.
I think we will see an improvement, the 3 relegated teams plus WBA, Boro, Sunderland, Sheff Utd will be strong contenders plus the odd suprise package( this is what we need to be). I can't see us competing with the 7 I have mentioned(hopefully wrong) so we have to make sure we are in the group of teams on the tail of those mentioned.
Of course there will be suprise teams in both directions of the league, we have a young squad with lots of potential and hopefully with the experienced Allen in there we could push on a little bit more than is expected and hover close to the play offs.... Big ask and we will see how it goes. |
Could you fit any more excuses into that post?
This is the same squad as last season, except we have swapped Joe Allen for Flynn Downes and got in Harry Darling and Nathan Wood to improve the defence.
This is a better side than last season… and last season was already a better side than the year before.
Almost £7m spent on transfers in the last 12 months. More than any other 12 month period in our football league history.
No more excuses, you banged on about transition season.. well your time is up. | |
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| The Squad 2022-2023 on 21:51 - Jul 25 with 3403 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| The Squad 2022-2023 on 17:01 - Jul 25 by KeithHaynes |
This I’m beginning to agree with.
Steve Cooper at Forest proved it.
Hopefully now the fear Martin talks about and the free reign to be brave actually comes together this season. |
Yep now or never for him really.
If we have another season of building then no doubt next season we lose Obafemi and Darling and it’s the same rebuilding excuses.
No other manager I have ever seen, always seems to need to write off a season as soon as a player leaves. It’s part of the game, expected and predictable.
He needs to get on with it now. Although to be fair, in this instance it seems some fans are making excuses on his behalf instead of him making them. | |
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