| NHS workers not happy 12:56 - Jan 23 with 15085 views | GoldenBear |
Protests against mandatory vaccines. Not going down to well it seems. Looks like the Government have underestimated how this has gone down with them. |  | | |  |
| NHS workers not happy on 15:54 - Jan 25 with 1289 views | A_Fans_Dad |
| NHS workers not happy on 15:07 - Jan 25 by Scotia |
What are the groups in this case? The dead and the undead? The hospitalised and the not hospitalised?
The "population" refers to the population of the country and the likelihood of occurence per 100,000 people in the population.
Unless of course you can prove otherwise, but this is what it states in ONS documents:-
"Mortality rates for deaths due to COVID-19 in England decreased to 56.3 deaths per 100,000 people in December 2021 from 69.3 in November. In Wales, the mortality rate decreased to 59.3 deaths per 100,000 people in December 2021 from 106.4 in November."
"The hospital admission rate of COVID-19-confirmed patients in England decreased to 17.62 per 100,000 people in the week ending 16 January 2022. Admission rates decreased in seven out of nine English regions."
The vaccinated hospital admissions and deaths are derived from these figures.
Also you haven't answered this regarding the incredible efficacy of a single dose of vaccine.
"Why do you think that is the case? Isn't it obvious?" [Post edited 25 Jan 2022 15:15]
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You are arguing against yourself with that post.
Those are gross statistics for the whole country, so of course they refer to the population of the whole country.
But when they split it in to vaccinated versus unvaccinated they count the numbers that are or are not vaccinated to obtain the population in each group.
Just like they count the number of vaccinated or unvaccinated in each age group.
Have even bothered to look at the VOCID-19 Vaccine Survey?
Just as they count the number of people tested and the number of positive results etc.
As to your
"Also you haven't answered this regarding the incredible efficacy of a single dose of vaccine. "
I have no idea what you are talking about, do you mean the numbers that I showed and discussed? |  | | |
| NHS workers not happy on 15:57 - Jan 25 with 1293 views | Scotia |
| NHS workers not happy on 15:40 - Jan 25 by A_Fans_Dad |
No it does not refer to the population of the country, it refers to the population as designated for each age group and then split in to those that are vaccinated and those that are not.
Which is then subdivided in to the population of each of those in the vaccinated status group.
From the ONS User guide to mortality statistics
Age-specific death rates
Age-specific death rates may be calculated for each age group. These are defined as the number of deaths in the age group per 1,000 population in the same age group or:
M[k] = (d[k] divided by p[k]) times 1,000
where
M[k] = age-specific death rate for age group k
d[k] = deaths in age group k
p[k] = population in age group k (mid-year population estimates with the exception for the rate for those aged under one year old where the number of live births are used instead)
[] = age |
That's completely diferent, I'm baffled you think it's relevant. It relates to age specific death rates. It is attempting to understand the people ages are when they die and is from a completely different document. Stick to the ONS covid 19 data as that is what you are attempting to understand.
You are using the vaccination status incorrectly. It is not designed to be a comparator. The ONS are taking the data from the deaths and hospilatisations and adding in vaccine status.
As I've said if the groups in hospitalised v unhospitalised the rates wold be 100,000 / 100,000 and 0 / 100,000.
Any thoughts on:-
Also you haven't answered this regarding the incredible efficacy of a single dose of vaccine.
"Why do you think that is the case? Isn't it obvious?" | | | |
| NHS workers not happy on 17:50 - Jan 25 with 1258 views | A_Fans_Dad |
| NHS workers not happy on 15:57 - Jan 25 by Scotia |
That's completely diferent, I'm baffled you think it's relevant. It relates to age specific death rates. It is attempting to understand the people ages are when they die and is from a completely different document. Stick to the ONS covid 19 data as that is what you are attempting to understand.
You are using the vaccination status incorrectly. It is not designed to be a comparator. The ONS are taking the data from the deaths and hospilatisations and adding in vaccine status.
As I've said if the groups in hospitalised v unhospitalised the rates wold be 100,000 / 100,000 and 0 / 100,000.
Any thoughts on:-
Also you haven't answered this regarding the incredible efficacy of a single dose of vaccine.
"Why do you think that is the case? Isn't it obvious?" |
No, the actual data comes from here
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/dea
If you download the Excel spreadsheet it has the counts of each group and the population of that at the time the data was collected.
So that you can see where the Age-standardised mortality rate per 100,000 comes from.
It also points you to the Paper on Mortality rates calculations that I quoted.
I tried to tell you about this data a long time ago and you did not want to listen, because this is the data that was analysed by the statisticians which shows why the vaccines have such good rates and the unvaccinated have higher rates.
It has been shown, not only in the UK, but also in Germany and Canada that the Deaths that should have been attributed to vaccinated in the first 14 days were instead attributed to the unvaccinated.
Which is why the unvaccinated have such a high all cause mortality rate and the vaccinated of less than 14 or 21 days do not. | | | |
| NHS workers not happy on 18:04 - Jan 25 with 1254 views | Scotia |
| NHS workers not happy on 17:50 - Jan 25 by A_Fans_Dad |
No, the actual data comes from here
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/dea
If you download the Excel spreadsheet it has the counts of each group and the population of that at the time the data was collected.
So that you can see where the Age-standardised mortality rate per 100,000 comes from.
It also points you to the Paper on Mortality rates calculations that I quoted.
I tried to tell you about this data a long time ago and you did not want to listen, because this is the data that was analysed by the statisticians which shows why the vaccines have such good rates and the unvaccinated have higher rates.
It has been shown, not only in the UK, but also in Germany and Canada that the Deaths that should have been attributed to vaccinated in the first 14 days were instead attributed to the unvaccinated.
Which is why the unvaccinated have such a high all cause mortality rate and the vaccinated of less than 14 or 21 days do not. |
That's different again, at least regarding the stats that appear to show / 100,000 more vaccinated ending up in hospital and dying. That uses population. This is relevant to the apparent improvement in life expectancy across all causes of death.
I think this may be where you are getting confused around the performance of a single dose of vaccine.
The measure referred to in that link and all cause mortality is in 100,000 person years. It's different.
It's also age standardised data. Completely different. [Post edited 25 Jan 2022 18:07]
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| NHS workers not happy on 18:22 - Jan 25 with 1238 views | GoldenBear |
Argue all you like, it's not what the OP was about.
How are you going to replace 10000's of NHS staff, it they go ahead with this illegal nonsense. Go on anyone. | | | |
| NHS workers not happy on 18:26 - Jan 25 with 1235 views | A_Fans_Dad |
| NHS workers not happy on 18:04 - Jan 25 by Scotia |
That's different again, at least regarding the stats that appear to show / 100,000 more vaccinated ending up in hospital and dying. That uses population. This is relevant to the apparent improvement in life expectancy across all causes of death.
I think this may be where you are getting confused around the performance of a single dose of vaccine.
The measure referred to in that link and all cause mortality is in 100,000 person years. It's different.
It's also age standardised data. Completely different. [Post edited 25 Jan 2022 18:07]
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No none of it is different it is all simple population based statistics that everybody uses and have used for decades.
Some choose different rate bases, but that is for convenience of demonstrating the outcome, it is based on 100, 1000, 10,000 or 1,000,000.
If you don't want to believe it that is OK, just don't ever quote any of those statistics to try and make your case when you totally ignore them when they don't. | | | |
| NHS workers not happy on 06:52 - Jan 26 with 1197 views | Brynmill_Jack |
| NHS workers not happy on 18:26 - Jan 25 by A_Fans_Dad |
No none of it is different it is all simple population based statistics that everybody uses and have used for decades.
Some choose different rate bases, but that is for convenience of demonstrating the outcome, it is based on 100, 1000, 10,000 or 1,000,000.
If you don't want to believe it that is OK, just don't ever quote any of those statistics to try and make your case when you totally ignore them when they don't. |
He’s moved more goal posts than the Liberty groundsman. |  |
| Each time I go to Bedd - au........................ |
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| NHS workers not happy on 07:05 - Jan 26 with 1189 views | felixstowe_jack |
| NHS workers not happy on 06:52 - Jan 26 by Brynmill_Jack |
He’s moved more goal posts than the Liberty groundsman. |
Vaccinations saves lives. Anyone who denies that basic scientific fact is a vaccine denier. | |
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| NHS workers not happy on 07:36 - Jan 26 with 1175 views | Scotia |
| NHS workers not happy on 18:22 - Jan 25 by GoldenBear |
Argue all you like, it's not what the OP was about.
How are you going to replace 10000's of NHS staff, it they go ahead with this illegal nonsense. Go on anyone. |
We're not, compulsory vaccination is a bit of a stupid idea. Whay anyone would want to refuse the vaccine though makes them just about as stupid.
We could end up in a decent place in the Welsh NHS as a result though. | | | |
| NHS workers not happy on 07:55 - Jan 26 with 1168 views | Scotia |
| NHS workers not happy on 18:26 - Jan 25 by A_Fans_Dad |
No none of it is different it is all simple population based statistics that everybody uses and have used for decades.
Some choose different rate bases, but that is for convenience of demonstrating the outcome, it is based on 100, 1000, 10,000 or 1,000,000.
If you don't want to believe it that is OK, just don't ever quote any of those statistics to try and make your case when you totally ignore them when they don't. |
It's not all the same, thats the problem. I genuinely don't think you understand that.
Firstly you used data (in another thread) based on the hospitalisation and death rate per 100,000 in the entire population to crow about these proving you are more likley to go to hospital or die if vaccinated. I explained why this was wrong, it's quite simple. That still stands. This came from here.
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/conditio
You then used two completely different methods of statitical analysis.
Firstly age standardised mortality rates per 100,000 and then person-hours per 100,000.
This is why you haven't answered the question about why the statistics show the apparently incredible effectiveness of a single dose. It is becasue you don't understand the units used or the metadata, if you did the answer is simple and the interpretation easy. It is based on person-hours, so it skews the figures, a single dose obvioulsy isn't that effective. For the sake of transparency the ONS have included it, but unfortunately people who don't understand it misrepresent it.
This is why I think you are a dangerous poster, moreso than ronaldstump and the others. You give the illusion that you know what you are talking about, but it is just that. Nothing you post stands up to scrutiny.
You can't interpret data becasue you fundamentally don't understand it or the metadata associated with it, similalrly to TV presenters and accountants analysing climate data. That's not an ad - hom attack but I await the one in reply. | | | |
| NHS workers not happy on 11:06 - Jan 26 with 1115 views | A_Fans_Dad |
| NHS workers not happy on 07:55 - Jan 26 by Scotia |
It's not all the same, thats the problem. I genuinely don't think you understand that.
Firstly you used data (in another thread) based on the hospitalisation and death rate per 100,000 in the entire population to crow about these proving you are more likley to go to hospital or die if vaccinated. I explained why this was wrong, it's quite simple. That still stands. This came from here.
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/conditio
You then used two completely different methods of statitical analysis.
Firstly age standardised mortality rates per 100,000 and then person-hours per 100,000.
This is why you haven't answered the question about why the statistics show the apparently incredible effectiveness of a single dose. It is becasue you don't understand the units used or the metadata, if you did the answer is simple and the interpretation easy. It is based on person-hours, so it skews the figures, a single dose obvioulsy isn't that effective. For the sake of transparency the ONS have included it, but unfortunately people who don't understand it misrepresent it.
This is why I think you are a dangerous poster, moreso than ronaldstump and the others. You give the illusion that you know what you are talking about, but it is just that. Nothing you post stands up to scrutiny.
You can't interpret data becasue you fundamentally don't understand it or the metadata associated with it, similalrly to TV presenters and accountants analysing climate data. That's not an ad - hom attack but I await the one in reply. |
It is not my interpretation you know nothing, it is Medical Statisticians.
How many times do I have to tell you?
All of those different statistics you say I have used are all the same basic statistic with different groupings, they are all based on dividing the target by the target population and multiplying by a nominal number of choice to get a reasonable meaningful number.
I am not the one that does not understand the metadata because you haven't even looked at it.
Here is why the Data shows what I say from a German Professor.
https://notrickszone.com/2022/01/21/analysis-by-german-prof-thousands-of-hidden- [Post edited 26 Jan 2022 11:07]
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| NHS workers not happy on 11:20 - Jan 26 with 1105 views | Scotia |
| NHS workers not happy on 11:06 - Jan 26 by A_Fans_Dad |
It is not my interpretation you know nothing, it is Medical Statisticians.
How many times do I have to tell you?
All of those different statistics you say I have used are all the same basic statistic with different groupings, they are all based on dividing the target by the target population and multiplying by a nominal number of choice to get a reasonable meaningful number.
I am not the one that does not understand the metadata because you haven't even looked at it.
Here is why the Data shows what I say from a German Professor.
https://notrickszone.com/2022/01/21/analysis-by-german-prof-thousands-of-hidden- [Post edited 26 Jan 2022 11:07]
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But you're grouping different units of data in to a similar interpretation. You don't even grasp that they are different units, you're falling at the first hurdle.
One group is per 100,000 in the population.
One is age standardised mortality per 100,000;.
The other is per 100,000 person hours. This one isn't even population.
That is part of the metadata.
Individually they're fine but not directly comparable. It's a little bit like saying 3 kilometres is further than 2 miles.
So, why do you think that data shows such great success of being vaccinated with a single dose comparable to the other groups? | | | |
| NHS workers not happy on 11:48 - Jan 26 with 1088 views | A_Fans_Dad |
| NHS workers not happy on 11:20 - Jan 26 by Scotia |
But you're grouping different units of data in to a similar interpretation. You don't even grasp that they are different units, you're falling at the first hurdle.
One group is per 100,000 in the population.
One is age standardised mortality per 100,000;.
The other is per 100,000 person hours. This one isn't even population.
That is part of the metadata.
Individually they're fine but not directly comparable. It's a little bit like saying 3 kilometres is further than 2 miles.
So, why do you think that data shows such great success of being vaccinated with a single dose comparable to the other groups? |
So, why do you think that data shows such great success of being vaccinated with a single dose comparable to the other groups?
The analysis in the study and by the professor in the link explain it. If you are too stupid to understand what they are saying (not me) then that is tough.
I am not going to respond to your absolute nonsense any more on the subject of simple statistics.
If you think you are so clever why don't you go and tell the Authors of then study paper and the professor they are wrong and don't know what they are talking about.
Here are the authors of the study for you to contact.
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Martin-Neil-2
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Norman-Fenton
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Joel-Smalley
Please let me know how you get on persuading them. | | | |
| NHS workers not happy on 11:57 - Jan 26 with 1088 views | Scotia |
| NHS workers not happy on 11:48 - Jan 26 by A_Fans_Dad |
So, why do you think that data shows such great success of being vaccinated with a single dose comparable to the other groups?
The analysis in the study and by the professor in the link explain it. If you are too stupid to understand what they are saying (not me) then that is tough.
I am not going to respond to your absolute nonsense any more on the subject of simple statistics.
If you think you are so clever why don't you go and tell the Authors of then study paper and the professor they are wrong and don't know what they are talking about.
Here are the authors of the study for you to contact.
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Martin-Neil-2
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Norman-Fenton
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Joel-Smalley
Please let me know how you get on persuading them. |
The answer is obvious. It's not in the study and I'm asking you.
If you understood the data you'd realise it's inconsequential but you obviosly don't because you raised it as a point. | | | |
| NHS workers not happy on 13:15 - Jan 26 with 1073 views | GoldenBear |
| NHS workers not happy on 07:36 - Jan 26 by Scotia |
We're not, compulsory vaccination is a bit of a stupid idea. Whay anyone would want to refuse the vaccine though makes them just about as stupid.
We could end up in a decent place in the Welsh NHS as a result though. |
If the rules as they currently stand are implimented for compulsory vaccination of NHS, and they refuse,and they are relieved of their positions. i'll ask again, how are they going fill those vacant posts.
People have been told before why folk are choosing not to be vaccinated, why is that so hard to comprehend.( and i'm not talking of anti vaxxers) that's a different conversation. To call folk out as stupid is just pathetic.
There are lots on here that say, NHS staff should all be vaccinated or be sacked, you now say that those very unvaccinated nurses etc are welcome to serve in welsh hospitals, seriously. The hypocrisy and double standards is mind bending.
Anyway i'm out of this one, as yet again no one has answered my OP, unless you care to do so. | | | |
| NHS workers not happy on 13:58 - Jan 26 with 1063 views | Scotia |
| NHS workers not happy on 13:15 - Jan 26 by GoldenBear |
If the rules as they currently stand are implimented for compulsory vaccination of NHS, and they refuse,and they are relieved of their positions. i'll ask again, how are they going fill those vacant posts.
People have been told before why folk are choosing not to be vaccinated, why is that so hard to comprehend.( and i'm not talking of anti vaxxers) that's a different conversation. To call folk out as stupid is just pathetic.
There are lots on here that say, NHS staff should all be vaccinated or be sacked, you now say that those very unvaccinated nurses etc are welcome to serve in welsh hospitals, seriously. The hypocrisy and double standards is mind bending.
Anyway i'm out of this one, as yet again no one has answered my OP, unless you care to do so. |
I've never called for anyone to be forced to be vaccinated especially in the NHS, precisely because we couldn't fill the vacancies and the NHS is in a bad way anyway. Most of those who haven't been vaccinated in the NHS do unpleasant jobs and will be hard to replace, especially post Brexit.
I do think people who refuse the vaccine are a bit stupid. As I do anyone who believes unsolicited nonsense that they read over what the medical profession tells them. It's a virus that can kill young and fit people, it'll make many more pretty ill. Why anyone would prefer that over a painless procedure with a minute risk of nasty side effects is beynd me, especially as the virus is far more likely to give more and long lasting effects.
If that doesn't answer the OP I don't know what does. | | | |
| NHS workers not happy on 19:05 - Jan 26 with 1012 views | GoldenBear |
| NHS workers not happy on 13:58 - Jan 26 by Scotia |
I've never called for anyone to be forced to be vaccinated especially in the NHS, precisely because we couldn't fill the vacancies and the NHS is in a bad way anyway. Most of those who haven't been vaccinated in the NHS do unpleasant jobs and will be hard to replace, especially post Brexit.
I do think people who refuse the vaccine are a bit stupid. As I do anyone who believes unsolicited nonsense that they read over what the medical profession tells them. It's a virus that can kill young and fit people, it'll make many more pretty ill. Why anyone would prefer that over a painless procedure with a minute risk of nasty side effects is beynd me, especially as the virus is far more likely to give more and long lasting effects.
If that doesn't answer the OP I don't know what does. |
Ok, if you say that you do not want to have mandatory vaccines, and folk are stupid for not having them, yet you'd be happy to take unvaccinated staff from NHS England to man our hospitals here in Wales, where exactly do you stand on the mandate for compulsory vaccines for NHS staff and ancillary workers.
You still haven't answered my hypothetical question, how are you going to fill thousands of jobs.
So in summary and you can answer individually, yes or no will be fine, no need to elaborate. Here we go.
1. Do you think there should be compulsory vaccines for all NHS staff and co workers.
2. Do you think all unvaccinated staff and co workers should be sacked for not accepting the vaccine.
TIA. | | | |
| NHS workers not happy on 08:15 - Jan 27 with 954 views | Scotia |
| NHS workers not happy on 19:05 - Jan 26 by GoldenBear |
Ok, if you say that you do not want to have mandatory vaccines, and folk are stupid for not having them, yet you'd be happy to take unvaccinated staff from NHS England to man our hospitals here in Wales, where exactly do you stand on the mandate for compulsory vaccines for NHS staff and ancillary workers.
You still haven't answered my hypothetical question, how are you going to fill thousands of jobs.
So in summary and you can answer individually, yes or no will be fine, no need to elaborate. Here we go.
1. Do you think there should be compulsory vaccines for all NHS staff and co workers.
2. Do you think all unvaccinated staff and co workers should be sacked for not accepting the vaccine.
TIA. |
No and No. Both are stupid ideas in the current circumstances
But there is a world of difference between NHS staff who disagree with compulsory vaccniation and those who aren't vaccinated.
I'd happily take staff from NHS England if they were unvaccinated and applied for a job and were recruited in the normal way.
I would reconsider if and when we manage to get a vaccine that works to significantly reduce transmission and illness across all variants. | | | |
| NHS workers not happy on 09:28 - Jan 27 with 936 views | Brynmill_Jack |
| NHS workers not happy on 08:15 - Jan 27 by Scotia |
No and No. Both are stupid ideas in the current circumstances
But there is a world of difference between NHS staff who disagree with compulsory vaccniation and those who aren't vaccinated.
I'd happily take staff from NHS England if they were unvaccinated and applied for a job and were recruited in the normal way.
I would reconsider if and when we manage to get a vaccine that works to significantly reduce transmission and illness across all variants. |
Your last paragraph- haven’t you previously said/implied that one vaccine could not tackle every variant?
Also, don’t you think - given all the research that’s been done by “the science” over the past two years they’d have done that by now? | |
| Each time I go to Bedd - au........................ |
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| NHS workers not happy on 09:45 - Jan 27 with 932 views | Scotia |
| NHS workers not happy on 09:28 - Jan 27 by Brynmill_Jack |
Your last paragraph- haven’t you previously said/implied that one vaccine could not tackle every variant?
Also, don’t you think - given all the research that’s been done by “the science” over the past two years they’d have done that by now? |
Nope, never. Except to reduce severe illness which is why you'd be nuts not to be vaccinated, but not infection or transmission.
No I don't think they'd have done it by now. The current vaccines are arguably the greatest development in medical history and they took a year of incredibly intesnse work.
I'm sure Prof Whitty said another couple of years. | | | |
| NHS workers not happy on 15:23 - Jan 27 with 891 views | A_Fans_Dad |
If the data presented to Senator Ron Johnson's “Covid-19: A Second Opinion,” by 3 whistleblowers from the DoD Defense Medical Epidemiology Database it is even worse than the Private Insurance and Medicare data.
The vaccine serious adverse events are far more numerous and dangerous than previously thought.
https://www.ronjohnson.senate.gov/2022/1/video-release-sen-ron-johnson-covid-19- | | | |
| NHS workers not happy on 15:39 - Jan 27 with 885 views | Scotia |
Becasue he didn't get vaccinated early enough. Poor man. | | | |
| NHS workers not happy on 15:44 - Jan 27 with 876 views | Whiterockin |
| NHS workers not happy on 15:39 - Jan 27 by Scotia |
Becasue he didn't get vaccinated early enough. Poor man. |
100% correct, its good of A Fans Dad to bring it to our attention, perhaps he is starting to see sense.
"However, the publication said that it had been shortly before he fell ill which had not allowed him to develop a sufficient level of antibodies." |  | | |
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