| Penalties 09:35 - Jul 15 with 2166 views | terryb |
I know that we have conceded 10 penalties this season & Clive has stated it is 20 since the start of last season. Some of these were rediculous decisions, but most have been for unnecessary "challenges".
Barbet has given away 3 this season & Manning can't be far behind him. Bidwell was also a serial offender. All three play/ed on our left hand side. Why, do we get caught out there? |  | | |  |
| Penalties on 09:40 - Jul 15 with 2142 views | Northernr |
We are frequently exposed in that left channel. Manning brings a lot going forwards but you lose a lot in defence with him there. Dim challenge last night. |  | | |
| Penalties on 09:57 - Jul 15 with 2097 views | Hunterhoop |
I’d wager there are some other reasons, which can be summed up with “our defenders aren’t very good”.
- Constantly challenging from the wrong side, due to being out of position or outpaced over a short distance. It invites the defender to go down and the ref to give it because it looks wrong; it’s bad defending.
- Making “unnecessary” challenges because you know/worry you will get done for pace. Our back 4/5 is very slow. It is no surprise Onouha going shower this up.
- Stupidity/Decision Making/Inexperience. Dunne, Hill, Onouha, even Leistner to a degree have played a lot of professional football at a decent standard. They were that bit more experienced and bright about deciding when to dive in, when not. Manning plays with a lot of testosterone. And I Barbet has a lot of brain farts when defending and even with the ball at his feet. The fact he is captain is a nonsense to me. He is not a leader or a sensible head. He makes stupid challenges trying to recover his own errors.
Lumley and Kelly are also a tad slow off their lines, likely down to nerves and a lack of confidence, which has led to a few pens too.
We’ve conceded the second most goals in the league. It is no surprise we concede penalties; our defenders aren’t very good.
I think we need 2 centre halves in the close season. One needs to be an experienced starter who commands the space physically and is a leader. Preferably both would have some pace.
If Manning goes we definitely need a left back. Assuming we’ve seen the last of Rangel, that leaves with Kakay and Kane (in that order from what i’ve seen), which isn’t very strong for this standard.
You could argue you’re looking at wanting 4 defenders brought in. |  | | |
| Penalties on 10:03 - Jul 15 with 2071 views | RANGERS4EVER |
Also doesn't help that i had gotten so used to penalties being saved with Smithies that my brain can't handle Lumley not having a clue how to save a penalty in any way shape or form. Obviously know its hard to save penalties but he can barely dive properly for them |  |
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| Penalties on 11:06 - Jul 15 with 2011 views | TheChef |
| Penalties on 10:03 - Jul 15 by RANGERS4EVER |
Also doesn't help that i had gotten so used to penalties being saved with Smithies that my brain can't handle Lumley not having a clue how to save a penalty in any way shape or form. Obviously know its hard to save penalties but he can barely dive properly for them |
And he seems to move far too early, making it even easier for the taker.
We definitely need an experienced CB for next season, ideally captain material too. A leader if you will, and if they're a legend, even better. Wondered if we can tempt John Terry back to play again?
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| Penalties on 11:42 - Jul 15 with 1966 views | Northolt_Rs |
| Penalties on 09:57 - Jul 15 by Hunterhoop |
I’d wager there are some other reasons, which can be summed up with “our defenders aren’t very good”.
- Constantly challenging from the wrong side, due to being out of position or outpaced over a short distance. It invites the defender to go down and the ref to give it because it looks wrong; it’s bad defending.
- Making “unnecessary” challenges because you know/worry you will get done for pace. Our back 4/5 is very slow. It is no surprise Onouha going shower this up.
- Stupidity/Decision Making/Inexperience. Dunne, Hill, Onouha, even Leistner to a degree have played a lot of professional football at a decent standard. They were that bit more experienced and bright about deciding when to dive in, when not. Manning plays with a lot of testosterone. And I Barbet has a lot of brain farts when defending and even with the ball at his feet. The fact he is captain is a nonsense to me. He is not a leader or a sensible head. He makes stupid challenges trying to recover his own errors.
Lumley and Kelly are also a tad slow off their lines, likely down to nerves and a lack of confidence, which has led to a few pens too.
We’ve conceded the second most goals in the league. It is no surprise we concede penalties; our defenders aren’t very good.
I think we need 2 centre halves in the close season. One needs to be an experienced starter who commands the space physically and is a leader. Preferably both would have some pace.
If Manning goes we definitely need a left back. Assuming we’ve seen the last of Rangel, that leaves with Kakay and Kane (in that order from what i’ve seen), which isn’t very strong for this standard.
You could argue you’re looking at wanting 4 defenders brought in. |
Yep I go with the ‘our defenders are pony’ reason... that defence is truly shocking. Glad for the point last night but just how far have we fallen....desperately hoping for a draw at looton. Grim really. |  |
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| Penalties on 12:08 - Jul 15 with 1925 views | DavieQPR |
Well according to EFL there are about 1400 players out of contract this summer so we should be able to pick up someone. Think Hall will regret not signing even for less money. |  | | |
| Penalties on 12:37 - Jul 15 with 1888 views | dannyblue |
| Penalties on 10:03 - Jul 15 by RANGERS4EVER |
Also doesn't help that i had gotten so used to penalties being saved with Smithies that my brain can't handle Lumley not having a clue how to save a penalty in any way shape or form. Obviously know its hard to save penalties but he can barely dive properly for them |
And astonishingly last night he started BEHIND the goal line? Every other keeper tries to get as far beyond it as they can to narrow the angle. |  | | |
| Penalties on 12:55 - Jul 15 with 1859 views | Antti_Heinola |
| Penalties on 12:37 - Jul 15 by dannyblue |
And astonishingly last night he started BEHIND the goal line? Every other keeper tries to get as far beyond it as they can to narrow the angle. |
Well, you can't do that - I expect his logic is to move forwards onto his line giving him momentum to dive. But one place Kelly is by far better than him is on penalty saving.
Agree with most of this thread though, the defence needs major surgery for next season, but they've also known that for a long time, so I hope we have targets. We've lost two central defenders in Hall and Leistner, so you would imagine bare minimum would be one more even if Masterson plays more next season.
The fact Kane is now being left out for Kakay means one of two things: Kane is now our third best right back, and could leave this summer. Or he's giving Kakay a run to see if he can be back up to Kane. Either way, with Rangel injured, a right back looks important to me, because I don't think Kane or Kakay are quite good enough to be honest. I've always thought the Manning rumours were unlikely because much as i like him and his left foot, to me I think a lot of fans think he's a lot better than he is and i'd be surprised if anyone were to pay a big fee for him. But maybe they will. In that case, and even if it isn't, I expect us to sign a left back.
Don't quite agree with all the criticism of Barbet above, I'm not sure exactly what a 'leader' is when fans go on about it, or how they can tell what a 'leader' is by watching. I think he's a good player and have no problem with him as captain.
I mean, if it was me, I'd want to be purchasing four defenders and a keeper. And then you'd be looking at at least four others to replace Wells, Hugill, Eze and Bright, plus probably another to replace Amos.
Second huge turnover in two seasons. |  |
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| Penalties on 12:59 - Jul 15 with 1840 views | dannyblue |
| Penalties on 12:55 - Jul 15 by Antti_Heinola |
Well, you can't do that - I expect his logic is to move forwards onto his line giving him momentum to dive. But one place Kelly is by far better than him is on penalty saving.
Agree with most of this thread though, the defence needs major surgery for next season, but they've also known that for a long time, so I hope we have targets. We've lost two central defenders in Hall and Leistner, so you would imagine bare minimum would be one more even if Masterson plays more next season.
The fact Kane is now being left out for Kakay means one of two things: Kane is now our third best right back, and could leave this summer. Or he's giving Kakay a run to see if he can be back up to Kane. Either way, with Rangel injured, a right back looks important to me, because I don't think Kane or Kakay are quite good enough to be honest. I've always thought the Manning rumours were unlikely because much as i like him and his left foot, to me I think a lot of fans think he's a lot better than he is and i'd be surprised if anyone were to pay a big fee for him. But maybe they will. In that case, and even if it isn't, I expect us to sign a left back.
Don't quite agree with all the criticism of Barbet above, I'm not sure exactly what a 'leader' is when fans go on about it, or how they can tell what a 'leader' is by watching. I think he's a good player and have no problem with him as captain.
I mean, if it was me, I'd want to be purchasing four defenders and a keeper. And then you'd be looking at at least four others to replace Wells, Hugill, Eze and Bright, plus probably another to replace Amos.
Second huge turnover in two seasons. |
Of course you're not allowed to do that, but most keepers try as much as they can...if they get caught it just gets taken again which isn't too much of a deterrent | | | |
| Penalties on 13:00 - Jul 15 with 1838 views | Hunterhoop |
I think Barbet is an astonishingly overrated centre half, Antti.
I am very clear on what I want from a leader and captain and i’m not talking about shouting on the pitch. Onuoha was a very good captain, Barbet i’m very unconvinced about.
As a defender, i’m even less convinced. I think he’s better suited in this league to left back over centre half. | | | |
| Penalties on 14:16 - Jul 15 with 1751 views | Antti_Heinola |
| Penalties on 13:00 - Jul 15 by Hunterhoop |
I think Barbet is an astonishingly overrated centre half, Antti.
I am very clear on what I want from a leader and captain and i’m not talking about shouting on the pitch. Onuoha was a very good captain, Barbet i’m very unconvinced about.
As a defender, i’m even less convinced. I think he’s better suited in this league to left back over centre half. |
astonishingly overrated by who?
Our defence imporved immeasurably when he came back from injury, and his passing is mostly very good.
I bet you anything that 99.9% of our fanbase thinks Barbet is an adequate defender who is a very decent passer and nothing more.
If that's astonishingly overrated you must basically think he's non-league level. | |
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| Penalties on 14:25 - Jul 15 with 1731 views | TheChef |
| Penalties on 12:55 - Jul 15 by Antti_Heinola |
Well, you can't do that - I expect his logic is to move forwards onto his line giving him momentum to dive. But one place Kelly is by far better than him is on penalty saving.
Agree with most of this thread though, the defence needs major surgery for next season, but they've also known that for a long time, so I hope we have targets. We've lost two central defenders in Hall and Leistner, so you would imagine bare minimum would be one more even if Masterson plays more next season.
The fact Kane is now being left out for Kakay means one of two things: Kane is now our third best right back, and could leave this summer. Or he's giving Kakay a run to see if he can be back up to Kane. Either way, with Rangel injured, a right back looks important to me, because I don't think Kane or Kakay are quite good enough to be honest. I've always thought the Manning rumours were unlikely because much as i like him and his left foot, to me I think a lot of fans think he's a lot better than he is and i'd be surprised if anyone were to pay a big fee for him. But maybe they will. In that case, and even if it isn't, I expect us to sign a left back.
Don't quite agree with all the criticism of Barbet above, I'm not sure exactly what a 'leader' is when fans go on about it, or how they can tell what a 'leader' is by watching. I think he's a good player and have no problem with him as captain.
I mean, if it was me, I'd want to be purchasing four defenders and a keeper. And then you'd be looking at at least four others to replace Wells, Hugill, Eze and Bright, plus probably another to replace Amos.
Second huge turnover in two seasons. |
Also depends on what formation we go with, flat back four or a back three with wing backs.
Manning is an interesting one, great going forward and providing assists but still suspect in defending. I do wonder if he will go in the summer, but if he doesn't we do have coaches who can work with him on the defensive side. Don't we? | |
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| Penalties on 15:02 - Jul 15 with 1702 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| Penalties on 14:25 - Jul 15 by TheChef |
Also depends on what formation we go with, flat back four or a back three with wing backs.
Manning is an interesting one, great going forward and providing assists but still suspect in defending. I do wonder if he will go in the summer, but if he doesn't we do have coaches who can work with him on the defensive side. Don't we? |
He has work to do. You would think after being caught so flat-footed for the rebounds leading up to Saturday's first goal that his concentration would've been at peak for last night. Yet there he was again switching off and allowing his man drift goal side resulting in panic and an awkward challenge.
The thing is that he has the technical ability to be sound defensively. We've all seen him tackle well and intercept well. He lacks height but can head the ball.
He needs to decide if he wants to be a defender - here or elsewhere. If he does he has to dedicate himself to that, no matter what - to learning about positioning both as part of a back unit and in one-on-one challenges, to studying videos, to countless mind-numbing tackling and heading drills and to - most importantly - working on his hunger to be a destroyer as well as a creator.
It's his call. |  |
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| Penalties on 16:26 - Jul 15 with 1638 views | terryb |
| Penalties on 13:00 - Jul 15 by Hunterhoop |
I think Barbet is an astonishingly overrated centre half, Antti.
I am very clear on what I want from a leader and captain and i’m not talking about shouting on the pitch. Onuoha was a very good captain, Barbet i’m very unconvinced about.
As a defender, i’m even less convinced. I think he’s better suited in this league to left back over centre half. |
I know you will disagree Hunter, but I would prefer to have Barbet in my team than Leistner in the majority of matches.
Against Millwall, Cardiff etc I would go for Toni but if the forwards have pace & movement, Barbet every time. I want more from a defender than just being able to head a ball.
I do agree with you about the captaincy, but tou don't have to be captain to be a leader. | | | |
| Penalties on 16:53 - Jul 15 with 1591 views | Hunterhoop |
| Penalties on 14:16 - Jul 15 by Antti_Heinola |
astonishingly overrated by who?
Our defence imporved immeasurably when he came back from injury, and his passing is mostly very good.
I bet you anything that 99.9% of our fanbase thinks Barbet is an adequate defender who is a very decent passer and nothing more.
If that's astonishingly overrated you must basically think he's non-league level. |
No, that last sentence is a leap on your part.
My precise point is that your assumption of the fanbase’s view is, in my view, significantly overrating him, and I just don’t get it.
“His passing is mostly very good”? I’m astonished people think this. Watch him closely. He overhits and under hits a lot of regular completed passes; he gives the ball away an awful lot for a centre half under little pressure in a possession based team. I just do not buy this narrative and I don’t understand why others do. Because he’s French? Because he played for Brentford? Because we were told that was a strength of his when he was brought in? Against Barnsley and Charlton he was gifting it away on a regular basis. Last night, just after we scored a square pass to Manning was hit straight at their forward’s face an almost intercepted, under no pressure. I think he’s no more a “good passer” than anyone else.
“Adequate” at defending yes for a relegation threatened Champ side. I’d agree, but only just and not for any higher. He makes a lot of individual errors through a game, mainly lapses in concentration and decision making. At set prices he’s weak; see Luton’s disallowed goal last night. That was soft. He gives away free kicks and penalties galore. He let’s men drift off his shoulder (see Moore’s goal for Wigan) which meant he has to commit to blocking the pass (and failing). Twice last night he played offside when they weren’t, the last time led to the chance Lumley saved in injury time. He is a step up on Lynch, I grant you, but that’s about it.
I understand how Leistner didn’t fit into this Warburton team and set up (quite a high line and lots of passing), but as an defender, I.e. when the other team have the ball he was streets ahead, and don’t get me wrong, he still had flaws!
We’re going to end up conceding the second highest amount of goals in the league. If that doesn’t tell you Barbet, and Hall (to be fair) aren’t that good, i’m not sure what will.
He has to improve next year, which I think he must be capable of doing, if we’re to improve...or we need to find two better centre halves to do.
Yet, to me at least, he seems to get an easy ride, certainly compared to Eze or Manning or a few others. And I don’t get it. No one ever calls him out on his errors. We have lots of other problems, of course, which is probably the reason.
But he is not defending adequately for team aspiring to be top half, and he is not a good passer of the ball anymore than the rest of the defence...and that includes Geoff Cameron!
Watch him closely over a few games. | | | |
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