| General election looming? 19:49 - Oct 22 with 28695 views | Daley_Lama |
Who would people vote in in Rochdale?
Lab? A bloke who has voted against every single attempt to deliver Brexit?
Lib: A bloke or woman who would do the same?
Tory? In Rochdale?
I reckon this town could actually vote in a Farage candidate if a general election was called. |  |
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| General election looming? on 11:47 - Oct 24 with 1903 views | judd |
| General election looming? on 11:28 - Oct 24 by James1980 |
Would you have accepted 52-48 in favour of remain? Would you have accepted that as a mandate for a hard remain? |
As per Finberty, not answering on D'Aliens' behalf, but I would have accepted any result of the referendum (leave/remain/tie).
But that is all hypothetical now. We have had a referendum and a decision was made.
Don't forget that the referendum came about as a result of the EU not preparing to give way on the terms of our membership of the union. As a nation there was a tremendous thirst for change, starting with the growth of UKIP and culminating in the Conservatives pledging a referendum on leave/remain and then brokering an all party agreement to implement the result. |  |
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| General election looming? on 11:53 - Oct 24 with 1892 views | judd |
| General election looming? on 11:43 - Oct 24 by rod_leach |
You're completely wrong using this as a comparison, Judd. Many, many people put many, many hours, days & months of work, effort and money in to mitigate the effects of the millenium bug.
If it had been ignored and labelled as project fear, the world would have a completely different view of it. |
Had you seen the pre-edited post I responded to it would have made more sense to you.
Building on what you have correctly said about putting the work in well in advance of a potentially seismic event, it would appear that Cameron et al did very little in understanding what could go wrong if the plebiscite resulted in a leave result, and consequently what they should have done in order to mitigate the circumstances we now find ourselves in.
We should have tested the waters and left Eurovision first. | |
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| General election looming? on 12:00 - Oct 24 with 1886 views | BigDaveMyCock |
| General election looming? on 11:47 - Oct 24 by judd |
As per Finberty, not answering on D'Aliens' behalf, but I would have accepted any result of the referendum (leave/remain/tie).
But that is all hypothetical now. We have had a referendum and a decision was made.
Don't forget that the referendum came about as a result of the EU not preparing to give way on the terms of our membership of the union. As a nation there was a tremendous thirst for change, starting with the growth of UKIP and culminating in the Conservatives pledging a referendum on leave/remain and then brokering an all party agreement to implement the result. |
Democracy isn’t just the 2016 referendum. Democracy isn’t fixed on one vote at one point in time. The vast majority of remainers would only want to remain via a democratic mandate. I’m sorry that the 2016 referendum didn’t work out for leavers. I know leavers like to blame remainers or Parliament (with a massive dollop of irony) but maybe, just maybe, it wasn’t as straight forward as they/you were led to believe. The Irish question being one obvious example. [Post edited 24 Oct 2019 12:01]
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| General election looming? on 12:06 - Oct 24 with 1876 views | finberty |
| General election looming? on 11:46 - Oct 24 by BigDaveMyCock |
I didn’t say it invalidated their vote. I was making a general observation from my discussions with leavers. To a person each make a general statement that the EU is somehow hindering them personally or more broadly the country in, for example, trade. Fine, but when one asks for a specific example of the hindrance nothing is provided. The worst example was the no deal/WTO enthusiasts. When you ask the reasonable question of which specific WTO rule they prefer over an EU rule you just get a perplexed look. At least remainers point to something tangible like the Single Market.
This is now where we are with the debate.
In the beginning it was going to be the easiest deal in history. It was also going to be hugely beneficial to the economy and return parliamentary sovereignty.
Then it transpired that it wasn’t the easiest deal in history. Economically, it was not going to be as bad as people make out and Parliament is full of assholes to the point of its prorogation.
Now, the debate is currently that we need Brexit because we voted for it. There seems to be no other compelling reason other than because we voted for it. [Post edited 24 Oct 2019 12:03]
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"In the beginning it was going to the easiest deal in history. It was also going to be hugely beneficial to the economy and return parliamentary sovereignty."
Have to disagree there. Former Chancellor George Osborne, key amongst many, predicted economic doom and gloom from the outset. Many people respected his position and chose to follow his advice. Others, for a variety of reasons, chose not to. Whether his prediction materialised to the extent predicted is open to debate.
I think some elements of the Press termed it Project Fear. Irrespective of that, the choices presented were presented starkly on both sides of the debate.
There is also more to the argument than 'trade'. |  | | |
| General election looming? on 12:15 - Oct 24 with 1864 views | judd |
| General election looming? on 12:00 - Oct 24 by BigDaveMyCock |
Democracy isn’t just the 2016 referendum. Democracy isn’t fixed on one vote at one point in time. The vast majority of remainers would only want to remain via a democratic mandate. I’m sorry that the 2016 referendum didn’t work out for leavers. I know leavers like to blame remainers or Parliament (with a massive dollop of irony) but maybe, just maybe, it wasn’t as straight forward as they/you were led to believe. The Irish question being one obvious example. [Post edited 24 Oct 2019 12:01]
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"Democracy isn’t just the 2016 referendum."
Where have I said it is?
"Democracy isn’t fixed on one vote at one point in time. "
Where have I said that it is?
"The vast majority of remainers would only want to remain via a democratic mandate."
Forgive me if I am wrong, but my understanding is that they do not have one.
"I know leavers like to blame remainers or Parliament "
As a remainer I blame Cameron and his team for not doing the groundwork properly, thinking a vacuous promise of a referendum would deliver a Tory majority and nothing else, Cameron for resigning, the Tories for electing the ineffective and devout remainer May to deliver, and those MPs who have not followed the wishes of their constituents.
"it wasn’t as straight forward as they/you were led to believe"
I was not led to believe anything other than all parties would implement the result of the referendum. Irrespective of difficulties that should have been foreseen
"The Irish question being one obvious example. "
Which particular question? Hard or soft border? Economic and/or political union between the Republic and the North? Can the Republic afford to fund the North as the UK currently does? Does it want to? In my opinion, Ireland should not be a show stopper. It is time for some ballsy decisions. | |
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| General election looming? on 12:25 - Oct 24 with 1856 views | rod_leach |
| General election looming? on 11:53 - Oct 24 by judd |
Had you seen the pre-edited post I responded to it would have made more sense to you.
Building on what you have correctly said about putting the work in well in advance of a potentially seismic event, it would appear that Cameron et al did very little in understanding what could go wrong if the plebiscite resulted in a leave result, and consequently what they should have done in order to mitigate the circumstances we now find ourselves in.
We should have tested the waters and left Eurovision first. |
'll take your word for that, but the Millenium Bug certainly wasn't another load of bollox |  | | |
| General election looming? on 12:45 - Oct 24 with 1834 views | judd |
| General election looming? on 12:25 - Oct 24 by rod_leach |
'll take your word for that, but the Millenium Bug certainly wasn't another load of bollox |
I was referring to the aftermath following the scaremongering. | |
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| General election looming? on 13:09 - Oct 24 with 1817 views | BigDaveMyCock |
| General election looming? on 12:15 - Oct 24 by judd |
"Democracy isn’t just the 2016 referendum."
Where have I said it is?
"Democracy isn’t fixed on one vote at one point in time. "
Where have I said that it is?
"The vast majority of remainers would only want to remain via a democratic mandate."
Forgive me if I am wrong, but my understanding is that they do not have one.
"I know leavers like to blame remainers or Parliament "
As a remainer I blame Cameron and his team for not doing the groundwork properly, thinking a vacuous promise of a referendum would deliver a Tory majority and nothing else, Cameron for resigning, the Tories for electing the ineffective and devout remainer May to deliver, and those MPs who have not followed the wishes of their constituents.
"it wasn’t as straight forward as they/you were led to believe"
I was not led to believe anything other than all parties would implement the result of the referendum. Irrespective of difficulties that should have been foreseen
"The Irish question being one obvious example. "
Which particular question? Hard or soft border? Economic and/or political union between the Republic and the North? Can the Republic afford to fund the North as the UK currently does? Does it want to? In my opinion, Ireland should not be a show stopper. It is time for some ballsy decisions. |
You’ve made the argument that the 2016 referendum should be enacted for reasons of upholding democracy. Fine. However, you dismissed the idea of having another referendum on Brexit/Brexit deal. This closes the question. Democracy was only permitted in respect of Brexit in the 2016 referendum. Despite lots of things changing over the last three and a half years, that’s it case closed. You’re right, no other referendum has yet been called. It might never do. However, as democracy isn’t fixed in time, I don’t understand why you are against the possibility of future democratic confirmation in respect of Brexit given the enormity of it and its impact on future generations. I know 2016 was a simple in out question but that doesn’t in itself preclude the possibility of any further democratic confirmation.
Parliamentarians broadly represent the population. Treat them differently and you will only be disappointed. They to have found the reality of it far more difficult than they expected.
Be as ballsy as you want re Ireland, just hope relative peace is maintained. And, after being ballsy, what about Scotland? | |
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| General election looming? on 13:25 - Oct 24 with 1798 views | DaleFan7 |
| General election looming? on 13:09 - Oct 24 by BigDaveMyCock |
You’ve made the argument that the 2016 referendum should be enacted for reasons of upholding democracy. Fine. However, you dismissed the idea of having another referendum on Brexit/Brexit deal. This closes the question. Democracy was only permitted in respect of Brexit in the 2016 referendum. Despite lots of things changing over the last three and a half years, that’s it case closed. You’re right, no other referendum has yet been called. It might never do. However, as democracy isn’t fixed in time, I don’t understand why you are against the possibility of future democratic confirmation in respect of Brexit given the enormity of it and its impact on future generations. I know 2016 was a simple in out question but that doesn’t in itself preclude the possibility of any further democratic confirmation.
Parliamentarians broadly represent the population. Treat them differently and you will only be disappointed. They to have found the reality of it far more difficult than they expected.
Be as ballsy as you want re Ireland, just hope relative peace is maintained. And, after being ballsy, what about Scotland? |
If parliamentarians represented the population then they should vote how their constituents voted not how they want to vote. | | | |
| General election looming? on 13:37 - Oct 24 with 1781 views | tony_roch975 |
| General election looming? on 22:40 - Oct 23 by D_Alien |
Don't put yourself down James, you're as important as everyone else with a vote, which is why the result needs to be respected
Edit: or Juncker, Barnier, Tusk et al?
I'd rather not be given two hoots about by someone i can vote out than someone i can't [Post edited 23 Oct 2019 22:43]
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Edit: or Mark Sedwill, David Frost et al | |
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| General election looming? on 13:39 - Oct 24 with 1778 views | finberty |
| General election looming? on 13:25 - Oct 24 by DaleFan7 |
If parliamentarians represented the population then they should vote how their constituents voted not how they want to vote. |
Frank Field MP argued this point earlier this week, stating that MPs are 'advocates' in terms of Brexit, rather than 'representatives'.
This caused some stirring, including an anonymous MP stating out loud (although not in a formal response, more a muttered comment picked-up by the microphones) that she was 'nobody's advocate'.
This probably explains the disconnect between the result of the vote and the actions in Parliament.
If MPs are 'representatives', they are there to represent the interests of their constituents as they see fit, taking into account the national interests.
If they are 'advocates', as Frank Field, erm, advocated, then their function is merely to reflect the majority view. If that is their only function in this regard, why would they have any say at all? Their influence would be reduced to an audience member holding up a red or green card on 'The Apprentice - You're Fired'. [Post edited 24 Oct 2019 13:40]
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| General election looming? on 13:45 - Oct 24 with 1769 views | judd |
| General election looming? on 13:09 - Oct 24 by BigDaveMyCock |
You’ve made the argument that the 2016 referendum should be enacted for reasons of upholding democracy. Fine. However, you dismissed the idea of having another referendum on Brexit/Brexit deal. This closes the question. Democracy was only permitted in respect of Brexit in the 2016 referendum. Despite lots of things changing over the last three and a half years, that’s it case closed. You’re right, no other referendum has yet been called. It might never do. However, as democracy isn’t fixed in time, I don’t understand why you are against the possibility of future democratic confirmation in respect of Brexit given the enormity of it and its impact on future generations. I know 2016 was a simple in out question but that doesn’t in itself preclude the possibility of any further democratic confirmation.
Parliamentarians broadly represent the population. Treat them differently and you will only be disappointed. They to have found the reality of it far more difficult than they expected.
Be as ballsy as you want re Ireland, just hope relative peace is maintained. And, after being ballsy, what about Scotland? |
I dismissed the idea of another referendum because it would not ask the same binary question as the one that has been held and the result of which has failed to be implemented.
Moving the goalposts to suit a viewpoint is not democratic, in my humble opinion.
I believe that you have to look at the question both as it was phrased and, more importantly perhaps, how it was intended. Remain or leave being the either/or and only intended outcome. Simples.
Parliamentarians, or at least the elected ones, are usually voted in at an election broadly on party political lines and are thus given free reign by constituents to vote as their party expects them to. There is the occasional rebel.
The referendum was NOT an election, it was as rare as a Calvin goal moment in British politics that allowed the electorate to directly influence policy that should have been delivered irrespective of party lines.
With regards Ireland, not my place to make decisions on it. The population of the North is growing on the traditionally Republican side and so it may come to pass that it is dealt with "in house".
With regards Scotland, my recollection is that a democratic vote on independence or not was held and the result implemented. Or should we go again until "we" get the "right "result? | |
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| General election looming? on 13:46 - Oct 24 with 1768 views | BigDaveMyCock |
| General election looming? on 13:25 - Oct 24 by DaleFan7 |
If parliamentarians represented the population then they should vote how their constituents voted not how they want to vote. |
You may have noticed that we’re all pretty divided on the issue, just like them and their constituents. [Post edited 24 Oct 2019 14:44]
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| General election looming? on 13:50 - Oct 24 with 1764 views | judd |
| General election looming? on 13:46 - Oct 24 by BigDaveMyCock |
You may have noticed that we’re all pretty divided on the issue, just like them and their constituents. [Post edited 24 Oct 2019 14:44]
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Then such individuals are operating against their mandate in this instance and should do the honourable thing and resign, force a by-election and see what their constituents think of them.
But they won't. | |
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| General election looming? on 14:00 - Oct 24 with 1751 views | BigDaveMyCock |
| General election looming? on 13:45 - Oct 24 by judd |
I dismissed the idea of another referendum because it would not ask the same binary question as the one that has been held and the result of which has failed to be implemented.
Moving the goalposts to suit a viewpoint is not democratic, in my humble opinion.
I believe that you have to look at the question both as it was phrased and, more importantly perhaps, how it was intended. Remain or leave being the either/or and only intended outcome. Simples.
Parliamentarians, or at least the elected ones, are usually voted in at an election broadly on party political lines and are thus given free reign by constituents to vote as their party expects them to. There is the occasional rebel.
The referendum was NOT an election, it was as rare as a Calvin goal moment in British politics that allowed the electorate to directly influence policy that should have been delivered irrespective of party lines.
With regards Ireland, not my place to make decisions on it. The population of the North is growing on the traditionally Republican side and so it may come to pass that it is dealt with "in house".
With regards Scotland, my recollection is that a democratic vote on independence or not was held and the result implemented. Or should we go again until "we" get the "right "result? |
Isn’t this the problem with referendums. Having one is democratic, having another is not. It doesn’t take into account that democracy is fluid, impacted by events and that people will change their minds. A lot of Scottish people who voted to remain in the UK in 2014 may now reasonably say hang on I didn’t vote to leave the EU. This will intensify if/when Northern Ireland, as Dominic Raab noted, continues to have the ‘benefit’ of the Single Market.
People change their mind. Holding up the sanctity of a singular referendum doesn’t allow for that. | |
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| General election looming? on 14:03 - Oct 24 with 1748 views | BigDaveMyCock |
| General election looming? on 13:50 - Oct 24 by judd |
Then such individuals are operating against their mandate in this instance and should do the honourable thing and resign, force a by-election and see what their constituents think of them.
But they won't. |
Maybe they’ve changed their minds. Maybe they’ve had good reason to change their minds? | |
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| General election looming? on 14:06 - Oct 24 with 1744 views | D_Alien |
| General election looming? on 11:28 - Oct 24 by James1980 |
Would you have accepted 52-48 in favour of remain? Would you have accepted that as a mandate for a hard remain? |
I would've accepted a 50.01/49.99% result in favour of Remain
Unequivocally, democratically, without further demur and especially without the shreiking we've heard since by the losing side, which imo will come to no avail when we Leave with the current deal on the table
Another poster posted "sorry it hasn't worked out..." which imo is premature, although its certainly high time for the result to be implemented. And imo the current deal will mean just that - it'll be a full and proper Brexit; not hard, not soft, just Brexit |  |
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| General election looming? on 14:38 - Oct 24 with 1694 views | BigDaveMyCock |
| General election looming? on 14:06 - Oct 24 by D_Alien |
I would've accepted a 50.01/49.99% result in favour of Remain
Unequivocally, democratically, without further demur and especially without the shreiking we've heard since by the losing side, which imo will come to no avail when we Leave with the current deal on the table
Another poster posted "sorry it hasn't worked out..." which imo is premature, although its certainly high time for the result to be implemented. And imo the current deal will mean just that - it'll be a full and proper Brexit; not hard, not soft, just Brexit |
Don’t worry DAlien, you’ll likely get your Brexit. | |
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| General election looming? on 15:40 - Oct 24 with 1640 views | judd |
| General election looming? on 14:00 - Oct 24 by BigDaveMyCock |
Isn’t this the problem with referendums. Having one is democratic, having another is not. It doesn’t take into account that democracy is fluid, impacted by events and that people will change their minds. A lot of Scottish people who voted to remain in the UK in 2014 may now reasonably say hang on I didn’t vote to leave the EU. This will intensify if/when Northern Ireland, as Dominic Raab noted, continues to have the ‘benefit’ of the Single Market.
People change their mind. Holding up the sanctity of a singular referendum doesn’t allow for that. |
No, having just one is not undemocratic. Referendums are highly infrequent and (should be) forensically specific. I think there have only been 3 nationwide referendums in the UK.
The problem is the refusal of the losing side to accept defeat in a fair fight.
I accept that people change their mind. After all, did the UK not have a referendum to remain or leave the EC in 1975, 67% voting to remain - the result being swiftly and exactly implemented, not that anything needed changing?
Scotland is part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland as I understand it, not some special case deserving of exemption when it suits. We cannot go back and void the 2014 independence vote because future events were unforeseen, despite a high profile anti-EU swing in local elections in the UK in 2013 and European elections in May 2014, this latter being some 4 months before the Scottish vote, which saw 55%+ vote in favour of remaining in the UK.
Given the rarity of referendums, I think their sanctity has to be upheld as a singular event of huge and critical importance to participants and those mandated to deliver the result. | |
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| General election looming? on 15:54 - Oct 24 with 1619 views | 49thseason |
| General election looming? on 11:28 - Oct 24 by James1980 |
Would you have accepted 52-48 in favour of remain? Would you have accepted that as a mandate for a hard remain? |
I have been accepting Remain that since I voted NO in 1975 as have the rest of the country despite a tsunami of rules and regulations which have provided cover for mendacious civil servants and supine politicians. How many Civil Servants have gone way beyond what has been required in order to gold plate EU policies to the detriment of the UK whilst the French in their inimitable way have simply ignored much of what is handed down from Brussels?
We have been asset-stripped for nearly 50 years and at £39Billion just to leave the club and a £1billion a month for their extensions they are still doing it! And yet they claim to be friends. It's like charging your neighbours for having the audacity to move to Lytham and not put your bins out anymore. |  | | |
| General election looming? on 16:24 - Oct 24 with 1591 views | tony_roch975 |
| General election looming? on 13:39 - Oct 24 by finberty |
Frank Field MP argued this point earlier this week, stating that MPs are 'advocates' in terms of Brexit, rather than 'representatives'.
This caused some stirring, including an anonymous MP stating out loud (although not in a formal response, more a muttered comment picked-up by the microphones) that she was 'nobody's advocate'.
This probably explains the disconnect between the result of the vote and the actions in Parliament.
If MPs are 'representatives', they are there to represent the interests of their constituents as they see fit, taking into account the national interests.
If they are 'advocates', as Frank Field, erm, advocated, then their function is merely to reflect the majority view. If that is their only function in this regard, why would they have any say at all? Their influence would be reduced to an audience member holding up a red or green card on 'The Apprentice - You're Fired'. [Post edited 24 Oct 2019 13:40]
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absolutely - but that's because we tried to impose direct democracy (Referendum) onto our Representative Parliamentary Democracy; an advisory Referendum works, stating you'll treat is as binding (as Cameron did) guaranteed this impasse. Sounds like many on here would like to swop our Representative system for a Direct System? | |
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| General election looming? on 16:27 - Oct 24 with 1581 views | judd |
| General election looming? on 16:24 - Oct 24 by tony_roch975 |
absolutely - but that's because we tried to impose direct democracy (Referendum) onto our Representative Parliamentary Democracy; an advisory Referendum works, stating you'll treat is as binding (as Cameron did) guaranteed this impasse. Sounds like many on here would like to swop our Representative system for a Direct System? |
I would swap FPP for PR, get rid of the constitutional monarchy and an unelected second chamber.
And leave Eurovision. FOREVER. | |
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| General election looming? on 16:53 - Oct 24 with 1543 views | tony_roch975 |
| General election looming? on 14:00 - Oct 24 by BigDaveMyCock |
Isn’t this the problem with referendums. Having one is democratic, having another is not. It doesn’t take into account that democracy is fluid, impacted by events and that people will change their minds. A lot of Scottish people who voted to remain in the UK in 2014 may now reasonably say hang on I didn’t vote to leave the EU. This will intensify if/when Northern Ireland, as Dominic Raab noted, continues to have the ‘benefit’ of the Single Market.
People change their mind. Holding up the sanctity of a singular referendum doesn’t allow for that. |
I agree, though there may be ways to reduce the problem - keep as advisory; require a super majority; use several to avoid over-simplistic Yes/No e.g. Leave v Remain > Deal v No Deal > Close Alignment v Loose Alignment. The Citizens Panels idea as used by Ireland on the Abortion Referendum is another option. | |
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| General election looming? on 16:53 - Oct 24 with 1543 views | D_Alien |
One of the supposed benefits of FPP is that it's intended to result in a definitive majority for one party in parliament, thus ensuring a government which is able to carry through its mandate (for better or worse) until it either loses its majority or gets turfed out at a subsequent election
We've seen since 2017 how difficult its been for the governing party to conduct its business. Although i'm in favour of a form of PR which would result in a more nuanced representative HoC, the problem is where the governing party has to cobble together alliances which (in the case of the DUP, for instance) resulted in a payment being made to NI which they demanded in return for their votes in parliament. Much good it did them when push really came to shove
Whilst there's no guarantee of a majority for any party at the forthcoming election, i suspect the events of the past three years would make any parliamentary majority in favour of introducing a system of PR virtually impossible
[Post edited 24 Oct 2019 16:54]
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| General election looming? on 17:02 - Oct 24 with 1521 views | tony_roch975 |
| General election looming? on 16:53 - Oct 24 by D_Alien |
One of the supposed benefits of FPP is that it's intended to result in a definitive majority for one party in parliament, thus ensuring a government which is able to carry through its mandate (for better or worse) until it either loses its majority or gets turfed out at a subsequent election
We've seen since 2017 how difficult its been for the governing party to conduct its business. Although i'm in favour of a form of PR which would result in a more nuanced representative HoC, the problem is where the governing party has to cobble together alliances which (in the case of the DUP, for instance) resulted in a payment being made to NI which they demanded in return for their votes in parliament. Much good it did them when push really came to shove
Whilst there's no guarantee of a majority for any party at the forthcoming election, i suspect the events of the past three years would make any parliamentary majority in favour of introducing a system of PR virtually impossible
[Post edited 24 Oct 2019 16:54]
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with PR, UKIP would have had several dozen MPs to represent both the No Deal Brexit argument far more openly and honestly than the ERG faction of the Tories and other views which were 'hidden' before 2016. | |
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