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Apparently Putin has got pretty big balls as he's slowly invading the Crimea(Ukraine) despite the fact that it appears the US and UK both have treaty obligations to defend Ukraine. The treaty is called "The Budapest Memorandum" and was signed in the mid 90s to encourage the Ukraine to give up all it's nukes after the collapse of the Soviet Union.
Eerily reminiscent of the start of WWI and also the invasion of Czechoslovakia by Hitler in 1938 as Putin clearly thinks Obama is weak and won't keep his obligations.
A very high stakes game of poker going on as the US have started to deploy assets.
Signed in 1994. Like Poland we are strictly obligated. Doesn't look good. William Hague goes to Kiev on Sunday, I hope he doesn't return triumphantly waving paper like Neville Chamberlain. Putin is a scummy little man on a par with Hitler.
Old Greek Phil's got him covered (see opening of this vid:)
'I'm 18 with a bullet.Got my finger on the trigger,I'm gonna pull it.."
Love,Peace and Fook Chelski!
More like 20StoneOfHoop now.
Let's face it I'm not getting any thinner.
Pass the cake and pies please.
The fact is, President Vladimir Putin's actions towards Ukraine are legal under International Law, and thus cannot be stopped by any western government. The Russian Federation has a binding legal agreement with The Legitimate Ukrainian Government (which was DEMOCRATICALLY elected) regarding the lease of the naval base in the Crimea, which runs out in 2042. It is therefore territory of The Russian Federation, and Russia can have as many Soldiers or military personnel on the base as it wishes.
Furthermore, comparing President Putin to Hitler is quite rich considering the fact that Neo Nazis from all over Europe are flocking to the Ukraine to support this western sponsored takeover of the country. The far right in Ukraine openly celebrates the Nazi sympathisers and quislings of WW2 who were responsible for the extermination of countless Jews and Russians. One of their leaders has openly requested the help of Chechen terrorists with close links to al-Queeda in their struggle against Russia.
Nothing good will come of this, and the EU and USA have a lot to answer for in their quest to undermine Russia.
Why WWIII?This ain't the Cold War.No violation of NATO sphere,what's in it for us? Would the Russians threaten nuclear winter if the Yanks steamed into Mexico?
Strictly local, non nuclear posturing. The Russkies have to do it because of the historic perspective and the naval base and the Yanks, as ever, have to have their say. Why the UK and the EU have to put in their 2pence worth I do not know. I mean, if the Russians decided to take back Crimea or even the whole of Ukraine as they easily could, would the UK/EU try and stop em? Not a chance.
WWlll, not way.
Strictly local conflict.
Currently residing in Pinner, Centre of the Universe.
Signed in 1994. Like Poland we are strictly obligated. Doesn't look good. William Hague goes to Kiev on Sunday, I hope he doesn't return triumphantly waving paper like Neville Chamberlain. Putin is a scummy little man on a par with Hitler.
The Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances ( http://www.exportlawblog.com/docs/security_assurances.pdf page 8) signed in 1994 does not oblige us to take military action to defend Ukraine's independence or integrity. Although Russia is clearly in contravention of the agreement in many different ways, through political interference, economic pressure, threat and actual use of force, all the agreement obliges us to do is to consult with Russia and to refer the matter to the UN Security Council. Given that all of the signatories, bar Ukraine, have a veto in the Security Council it makes the agreement pretty much worthless. It's also worth noting that the agreement is more strictly to do with nuclear proliferation and defending Ukraine from a nuclear threat as opposed to a threat of more conventional weapons.
The fact is, President Vladimir Putin's actions towards Ukraine are legal under International Law, and thus cannot be stopped by any western government. The Russian Federation has a binding legal agreement with The Legitimate Ukrainian Government (which was DEMOCRATICALLY elected) regarding the lease of the naval base in the Crimea, which runs out in 2042. It is therefore territory of The Russian Federation, and Russia can have as many Soldiers or military personnel on the base as it wishes.
Furthermore, comparing President Putin to Hitler is quite rich considering the fact that Neo Nazis from all over Europe are flocking to the Ukraine to support this western sponsored takeover of the country. The far right in Ukraine openly celebrates the Nazi sympathisers and quislings of WW2 who were responsible for the extermination of countless Jews and Russians. One of their leaders has openly requested the help of Chechen terrorists with close links to al-Queeda in their struggle against Russia.
Nothing good will come of this, and the EU and USA have a lot to answer for in their quest to undermine Russia.
[Post edited 2 Mar 2014 9:02]
Just wondered how long it would take for this to become the fault of the west and the USA in particular.
The fact is, President Vladimir Putin's actions towards Ukraine are legal under International Law, and thus cannot be stopped by any western government. The Russian Federation has a binding legal agreement with The Legitimate Ukrainian Government (which was DEMOCRATICALLY elected) regarding the lease of the naval base in the Crimea, which runs out in 2042. It is therefore territory of The Russian Federation, and Russia can have as many Soldiers or military personnel on the base as it wishes.
Furthermore, comparing President Putin to Hitler is quite rich considering the fact that Neo Nazis from all over Europe are flocking to the Ukraine to support this western sponsored takeover of the country. The far right in Ukraine openly celebrates the Nazi sympathisers and quislings of WW2 who were responsible for the extermination of countless Jews and Russians. One of their leaders has openly requested the help of Chechen terrorists with close links to al-Queeda in their struggle against Russia.
Nothing good will come of this, and the EU and USA have a lot to answer for in their quest to undermine Russia.
[Post edited 2 Mar 2014 9:02]
Sorry Orthodox but that is absolute rubbish. Within the subtext of the 2010 Kharkiv Pact it is stipulated that Russian troop numbers are strictly limited and any change must first be approved by the Ukrainians. Leasing a military base does absolutely not make it the territory of the Russian federation. The agreement is in any case completely illegitimate. Ukraine's constitution explicitly forbids hosting any military base beyond 2017, making this agreement invalid. Opponents to the bill were also physically restrained from voting against it in parliament. You are also ignoring the fact that Russia is not just moving troops onto their bases, they are taking over Ukrainian airports and military infrastructure. The Russian parliament has approved military action not just in the Crimea but in all of Ukraine and there have been reports of it having already happened on the mainland.
Russia's invasion and clear intent to structurally dismantle Ukraine's territory is absolutely not legal under international law but they've done it time and again and got away with it. Transnistra, Abkhazia and South Ossetia are all the result of barefaced Russian imperialism. There's a clear formula to follow - issue thousands of Russian passports to people in the region, foment unrest and arm militias, issue every kind of provocation to try and get your opponent to respond so you have an excuse to send in "peacekeepers". Then carry out a but more ethnic cleansing, rape and looting and you have yourself a nice new strategic province for your empire.
Of course there are far-right wingers in Ukraine, there are everywhere. Any protest here would attract the same kind of nutters. When you have suffered genocide within the last few generations and now have your country being dismantled by your bullying neighbour it's not surprising that extreme nationalism comes to the fore. The fact remains that the vaast majority of protestors and opposition to Yanukovich came from very moderate sections of politics. It's ironic how much scare-mongering Putin and his allies have made of fascist influence in Ukraine given that Putin is to all intents and purposes a highly fascistic dictator.
Your comment about the US and EU is very wide of the mark - both have been incredibly limp-wristed in their response to this crisis and the idea that people protesting against Yanukovich were american and EU stooges is insulting to the people who went out and died rather than live under a dictator.
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WWIII? (n/t) (n/t) on 11:11 - Mar 2 with 6128 views
There is a referendum on Crimea's future status at the end of the month. Although independence from Ukraine or rejoining Russia is not an option I suspect it will enable Crimea to became a vassal state of Russia in a similar way as South Ossetia did. Putin knows this and putting the troops in place now to prevent the rest of Ukraine stopping this from happening.
This does have the potential to be a lot more explosive a situation than Georgia was in 2008. South Ossetia is a fairly worthless strip of land stuck in between Georgia and Russia in the Caucasus Mountains. Crimea is larger than Wales, contains an international airport and a large naval base sitting across the Black Sea from four NATO member states and three EU member states.
with crimea under ukraine control they had some safty from russian build up of land forces but if crimea is taken by russia they can build up a real invasion force for a later day on their doorstep
putin went to is upper house and asked for permission to send russian forces to th UKRAINE didnt say crimea
he wants to whole country and is just trying to provoke ukraine forces into defending themselves as an excuse to take over the country
cant see an happy ending to this putin cant back down as he cant lose face ,west are paper tigers and cant do anything but complain ,ukraine near leaderless and in massive debt faced with losing crimea and having the russian army on their doorstep or fight for crimea and lose whole country
How can an agreement be invalid if signed by the democratically elected government of that country? Money talks my friend, and the agreement was ratified whether against the Ukranian constitution or not. Who pays attention to the constitutions of sovereign countries nowadays anyway? Certainly not the USA and her lackeys. Fact is, Crimea was territorially part of Russia anyway up until 1954 when Kruschev (a Ukrainian) transferred it from the Russian Socialist Federative Republic to the Ukranian Soviet Socialist Republic. By rights this should have been reversed after the collapse of the Soviet Union. In any case Crimea and her ports have remained a special case between the Russians and Ukrainians, hence the Kharkiv agreement. Furthermore, it's not like this area or indeed other areas of eastern Ukraine are being coerced by the Russians, because they are indeed actually majority ethnically Russian. In Crimea's case almost 60%.
My comments re: USA and the EU are hardly wide off the mark. Whatever his merits, or the opposite, Yanukovych is the only one who can claim to be the democratically elected president of Ukraine. The current dangerous situation arose after Yanukovych was given an ultimatum by the EU last November, which forced him to choose between Europe and Russia, despite the fact that Ukraine is divided on this. He chose Russia, no surprise. For one thing, Russia offered more and demanded less, and what is more Putin’s proposal for a tripartite arrangement with Ukraine, Russia and EU was ruled out by US and EU officials. Far right elements then spearheaded the coup in Kiev, backed by the West. Simples. Even if Yanukovich was a t wat, there is a civilised way to oppose him. Form a party and win elections, and after that rule accordingly by your views.
My sympathy goes to all those who have lost their lives so far, be it the protesters or police, and sincerely hope it doesn't escalate into something more sinister. And if it does I bloody hope we keep our noses out of it.
from my visits to ukraine kiev once odessa twice i would say they are a very proud people and wont just roll over and most i spoke to have at best dislike of russia at worst hate
also how long before the first teams pull out of the olympics
Whoever or whatever deserves to be in power,what will define Ukraine,Russia and other countries in the area in the decades to come will be whether they get tempted by the (continuing) overtures from the EU countries about Membership.It will happen,inevitable,but not in my lifetime.No wonder the USA is twitchy,the EU is already a bigger trading bloc,can you imagine the impact should the Russian Federation throw their hat into the ring?The Yanks are terrified of a new (as they perceive it)Soviet style competitor.Suggested destabisation may not be short of the mark imho. All of this imho.
14:50: The Ukrainian coast guard tells Reuters that it has withdrawn from two ports in Crimea and moved its vessels to other Black Sea bases. Vessels from the Crimean ports of Kerch and Sevastopol have been moved to Odessa and Mariupol, it said. Earlier the Ukrainian border guard announced all frontiers were stable apart from Crimea's.
hope they leave odessa alone really liked it there great clubs great people ,well girls anyway
also 14:48: There are reports that Russia's leading broadcaster, Channel One, has cancelled its coverage of tonight's Oscars awards ceremony
Don't panic it's just 'saber rattling'. Once the US threatens 'business' they will back down. Russians just like to flex a bit of muscles from time to time. Lots of words but will be sorted.
SKY NEWS don't have any interesting stories at the moment so expect a 'w### fest' from them blowing everything out of proportion until another story comes in and it will be 3rd /4th news item after that.
Don't panic it's just 'saber rattling'. Once the US threatens 'business' they will back down. Russians just like to flex a bit of muscles from time to time. Lots of words but will be sorted.
SKY NEWS don't have any interesting stories at the moment so expect a 'w### fest' from them blowing everything out of proportion until another story comes in and it will be 3rd /4th news item after that.
[Post edited 2 Mar 2014 15:08]
This really isn't a small story being blown out of proportion, this is the real deal - an EU and Nato candidate state being invaded by Russia and parceled up will prove to be the biggest moment in European history since the end of the cold war barring the Yugoslav wars. Unfortunately, at this point a Russian success looks fairly likely. US and EU states will not take any meaningful action while Putin faces so little internal accountability he can do what he likes. Poland, Lithuania and Finland etc. will put pressure on NATO to take action but deployment of any miltary force looks very unlikely. Most likely resolution will be Crimea having near absolute autonomy from Ukraine, being essentially controlled by Moscow as with South Ossetia, Abkhazia and Transnistria
How can an agreement be invalid if signed by the democratically elected government of that country? Money talks my friend, and the agreement was ratified whether against the Ukranian constitution or not. Who pays attention to the constitutions of sovereign countries nowadays anyway? Certainly not the USA and her lackeys. Fact is, Crimea was territorially part of Russia anyway up until 1954 when Kruschev (a Ukrainian) transferred it from the Russian Socialist Federative Republic to the Ukranian Soviet Socialist Republic. By rights this should have been reversed after the collapse of the Soviet Union. In any case Crimea and her ports have remained a special case between the Russians and Ukrainians, hence the Kharkiv agreement. Furthermore, it's not like this area or indeed other areas of eastern Ukraine are being coerced by the Russians, because they are indeed actually majority ethnically Russian. In Crimea's case almost 60%.
My comments re: USA and the EU are hardly wide off the mark. Whatever his merits, or the opposite, Yanukovych is the only one who can claim to be the democratically elected president of Ukraine. The current dangerous situation arose after Yanukovych was given an ultimatum by the EU last November, which forced him to choose between Europe and Russia, despite the fact that Ukraine is divided on this. He chose Russia, no surprise. For one thing, Russia offered more and demanded less, and what is more Putin’s proposal for a tripartite arrangement with Ukraine, Russia and EU was ruled out by US and EU officials. Far right elements then spearheaded the coup in Kiev, backed by the West. Simples. Even if Yanukovich was a t wat, there is a civilised way to oppose him. Form a party and win elections, and after that rule accordingly by your views.
My sympathy goes to all those who have lost their lives so far, be it the protesters or police, and sincerely hope it doesn't escalate into something more sinister. And if it does I bloody hope we keep our noses out of it.
Correction - Crimea was not part of Russia before 1954: it was part of the Russian Empire. The reason that the majority of the population is now Russian is that there were successive genocides and deportations of the earlier inhabitants. There is no 'by rights' that it should somehow be given to Russia as it was previosuly agreed at the breakup of the Soviet Union that it would be part of Ukraine. If Crimea now wants to be a part of Russia, as you say there are civilised ways of doing things. Invasion and unilateral independence is not one of them. People who opposed Yankovich (who is no longer the legitimate leader, since he was impeached and dismissed) did do it in a civilised way, with peaceful protest before they were brutally attacked.
The thing that really disappoints me most about this whole sorry story in Barack Obama. The guy seems to have some very serious medical issues. Not only is he spineless, he also appears to not have any testes either. I also don't think that this will spill over out of the region at all. If there is going to be any exchange of gunfire, it will be local. Russia will end up with additional land mass, and we will all go back to as you were. But for me, the issue is far more dangerous. Nothing to do with Ukraine, Russia or Putin. America has been sabre rattling and Kerry has been doing the Sunday morning meet the press rounds sounding more and more like John Wayne each time he opens his chin. What this shows is that if anyone is prepared to stand up to USA or their interests, then Obama proves again he has no foreign policy, and understands nothing about foreign & international diplomacy. I think that America is weaker now that before Obama tool office, and the world knows it. His inability to do anything really decisive (apart from continuing wars he inherited) is frightening. And I fear that if Kerry follows him into the White House, things will only get worse. But I do think that we should say to Putin, take Crimea back, and be done with it. This is not unlike Hitler walking into Sudetenland, but this time it must stop here.
It's not what you've got; it's where you stick it.
The thing that really disappoints me most about this whole sorry story in Barack Obama. The guy seems to have some very serious medical issues. Not only is he spineless, he also appears to not have any testes either. I also don't think that this will spill over out of the region at all. If there is going to be any exchange of gunfire, it will be local. Russia will end up with additional land mass, and we will all go back to as you were. But for me, the issue is far more dangerous. Nothing to do with Ukraine, Russia or Putin. America has been sabre rattling and Kerry has been doing the Sunday morning meet the press rounds sounding more and more like John Wayne each time he opens his chin. What this shows is that if anyone is prepared to stand up to USA or their interests, then Obama proves again he has no foreign policy, and understands nothing about foreign & international diplomacy. I think that America is weaker now that before Obama tool office, and the world knows it. His inability to do anything really decisive (apart from continuing wars he inherited) is frightening. And I fear that if Kerry follows him into the White House, things will only get worse. But I do think that we should say to Putin, take Crimea back, and be done with it. This is not unlike Hitler walking into Sudetenland, but this time it must stop here.
For me Obama is doing the right thing, what do you want him to do, go to war ?
Russia can't afford a major confrontation because it's skint.Any more squeezes on the populace and Putin had better look out.All despots fall eventually.Defections in the armed forces are not unknown and as with the Roman Empire unless you keep your army sweet it can turn on you. Interesting times.
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