| European Elections 20:26 - Jun 9 with 6073 views | Dr_Winston |
A big rise in the Nationalist vote all across the continent. Macron beaten into second place in France by Le Pen's mob. Substantial gains for AfD in Germany and others in Austria. The same likely in Italy.
A natural outcome of people's valid concerns about mass inward migration, the headlong rush towards net zero regardless of the cost to people's lives and the fundamental democratic deficit at the heart of EU power being ignored, or dismissed as racism, fascism, or eco vandalism?
One of the reasons I voted for Brexit, as well as the aforementioned democratic deficit, is that I simply don't see it surviving as an entity for more than another couple of decades if there isn't massive reform, and I'd rather that the UK be nowhere near it when it happens. The will to enact such reform is massively lacking as politicians will never vote to give themselves less power, so the EU will cheerfully carry on ensuring its own ending. |  |
| Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f*cking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back. |
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| European Elections on 21:32 - Jun 10 with 1304 views | Dr_Winston |
| European Elections on 21:22 - Jun 10 by KeithHaynes |
Spain and Denmark are pretty left wing. But the rise of Vox in Spain (politically a right wing party) should be a warning. Or welcomed, dependent on your political place. |
It's been inevitable for quite a long time.
Since at least the signing of the Maastrict treaty the contempt that the European political elite has for the people that they're ostensibly in place to serve has been obvious, and a reaction to that will come, even if it takes a while.
The overwhelming majority of political unions forged without the consent of the population don't last. Some end in violence and bloodshed. Others require vast amounts of violence and bloodshed to maintain. Whilst that is unlikely to happen in this case, as I said before I simply can't see any reason why The EU can continue to exist operating the way that it does in the long term.
Brexit was the first. I doubt it'll be the last. If the Germans decide that they no longer want any part of it then it's done. | |
| Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f*cking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back. |
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| European Elections on 21:50 - Jun 10 with 1284 views | KeithHaynes |
| European Elections on 21:32 - Jun 10 by Dr_Winston |
It's been inevitable for quite a long time.
Since at least the signing of the Maastrict treaty the contempt that the European political elite has for the people that they're ostensibly in place to serve has been obvious, and a reaction to that will come, even if it takes a while.
The overwhelming majority of political unions forged without the consent of the population don't last. Some end in violence and bloodshed. Others require vast amounts of violence and bloodshed to maintain. Whilst that is unlikely to happen in this case, as I said before I simply can't see any reason why The EU can continue to exist operating the way that it does in the long term.
Brexit was the first. I doubt it'll be the last. If the Germans decide that they no longer want any part of it then it's done. |
I can see France backing out if the current situation continues. |  |
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| European Elections on 22:39 - Jun 10 with 1256 views | JumpingJackFlash |
EU elections: I'm still somewhat bewildered, waiting for the 'far right surge'. While there have been losses on the left, most notably among the greens, the idea of a far right surge, being touted by most of the UK press, seems a trifle over emphasised.
Based on all 720 declared results, the 'far right' Identity & Democracy group have gained 9 seats, currently on 58, while the European Conservatives and Reformist group has gained 4, at 73. The traditional centre right block, the European People's Party, have also gained 9 seats and remain by some margin the largest block at 189 seats, but this contains such parties as Donald Tusk's Civic Coalition party, so it's hard to argue this is part of an anti-EU drift to the right. The other groupings, (the Non-Aligned group, which includes Orban's lot) and the Independents remain unchanged.
So basically the right and far right combined have made 'sweeping' gains amounting to 13 seats combined out of 720, now controlling 18% of the parliamentary seats. While they made gains in France, Germany and Netherlands, they lost ground elsewhere, particularly in Poland.
Europe does have many problems, but the desire in the British press to paint the whole continent as lurching towards Fascism a la 1938 appears to be another of Fleet Street's wet dreams. |  | | |
| European Elections on 22:48 - Jun 10 with 1246 views | JACKMANANDBOY |
| European Elections on 14:41 - Jun 10 by Joesus_Of_Narbereth |
Talking of France here are the main aims of the “far right” national rally that I have shamelessly copied and pasted from the bbc website:
But what do they want? At the last presidential election in 2022, when Marine Le Pen was the candidate, the National Rally programme included:
A promise to hold a referendum to enshrine control of immigration into the constitution
A ban on wearing headscarves in public
The withdrawing of residency permits for migrants who are unemployed longer than a year
The removal of birthright citizenship
The privatisation of the public broadcaster
Slashing fuel, gas and electricity taxes from 20% to 5.5%
The end of income tax for under-30s
Increase to pensions and early retirement at 60 for those with 40 years' work
Now I would fundamentally disagree with the banning of headscarves, that seems unnecessarily petty. I would also question the removal of birthright citizenship. I think if you’re born and grow up in a country you should get citizenship.
But the rest of it doesn’t sound too horrendous. I like the idea of getting to retire at 60 if you have worked for 40 years. |
It's a similar story in Italy. We are told that Meloni is Mussolini in a dress and is labelled far right by the left wing media in the UK. She's increased her vote and her policies are no where near far right.
https://politiko.al/english/bota/cilat-jane-politikat-e-giorgia-melonit-kryemini |  |
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| European Elections on 22:56 - Jun 10 with 1239 views | KeithHaynes |
The over labelling of certain people and their politics as far right will eventually lead to the left regretting their take on scaring by lying. It’s happening here with Vox, although they are what I would call nearing extreme, especially if you are left thinking.
Me ? I tend to concentrate on the things I can manage like close family and friends (to an extent) that’s where my loyalties lay. Convincing a middle class student as an example having their rebel two years off is of no interest to me. Nor their weird take on a life well funded. | |
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| European Elections on 08:22 - Jun 11 with 1183 views | Dr_Winston |
| European Elections on 15:41 - Jun 10 by Flashberryjack |
I see where you are coming from, but how many people don't get old enough to collect their old age pensions. |
Statistically far fewer than do, which is why the age keeps rising.
There has been some tinkering with it over the years, but serious action needs to be taken on the subject of private or workplace pensions. Yes, people's state pension age is rising, but other pensions can be taken earlier if you choose to do so. I know I'll be claiming mine at the first opportunity. I won't be able to fully retire in comfort, but I will at least be able to work part year, or 2/3 days a week max until SP kicks in.
I shudder to think how many people out there have only the state pension to look forward to, and the likelihood of working full time until they hit 70. Rather than ending NI, I'd rather see mandatory contributions to a private pension replace it. | |
| Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f*cking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back. |
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| European Elections on 08:40 - Jun 11 with 1176 views | felixstowe_jack |
| European Elections on 08:22 - Jun 11 by Dr_Winston |
Statistically far fewer than do, which is why the age keeps rising.
There has been some tinkering with it over the years, but serious action needs to be taken on the subject of private or workplace pensions. Yes, people's state pension age is rising, but other pensions can be taken earlier if you choose to do so. I know I'll be claiming mine at the first opportunity. I won't be able to fully retire in comfort, but I will at least be able to work part year, or 2/3 days a week max until SP kicks in.
I shudder to think how many people out there have only the state pension to look forward to, and the likelihood of working full time until they hit 70. Rather than ending NI, I'd rather see mandatory contributions to a private pension replace it. |
Unfortunately Brown killed the private pension schemes particularly the final salary schemes with his windfall tax on private pensions in 1997. Most private pension schemes were no longer financially viable and final salary schemes were replaced with much less generous money purchase schemes.
This of course did not affect public sector final salary schemes which are funded bt taxpayers and could often be taken at 60 or after 30 years in some cases . | |
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| European Elections on 09:32 - Jun 11 with 1148 views | controversial_jack |
| European Elections on 08:40 - Jun 11 by felixstowe_jack |
Unfortunately Brown killed the private pension schemes particularly the final salary schemes with his windfall tax on private pensions in 1997. Most private pension schemes were no longer financially viable and final salary schemes were replaced with much less generous money purchase schemes.
This of course did not affect public sector final salary schemes which are funded bt taxpayers and could often be taken at 60 or after 30 years in some cases . |
Brown didn't kill private pensions, companies individually took the decision to stop final salary schemes and replace them with something inferior | | | |
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| European Elections on 09:54 - Jun 11 with 1145 views | Dr_Winston |
| European Elections on 08:40 - Jun 11 by felixstowe_jack |
Unfortunately Brown killed the private pension schemes particularly the final salary schemes with his windfall tax on private pensions in 1997. Most private pension schemes were no longer financially viable and final salary schemes were replaced with much less generous money purchase schemes.
This of course did not affect public sector final salary schemes which are funded bt taxpayers and could often be taken at 60 or after 30 years in some cases . |
Yes, and the problems resulting both from that and an ageing population demands a serious look at the concept of pension provision in its entirety.
You are of course completely wrong about public sector pension schemes. I am paying into a public sector pension and it hasn't been based on final salary for many years. | |
| Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f*cking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back. |
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| European Elections on 10:14 - Jun 11 with 1135 views | felixstowe_jack |
| European Elections on 09:54 - Jun 11 by Dr_Winston |
Yes, and the problems resulting both from that and an ageing population demands a serious look at the concept of pension provision in its entirety.
You are of course completely wrong about public sector pension schemes. I am paying into a public sector pension and it hasn't been based on final salary for many years. |
Not wrong on public sector pension. Most of them stayed as final salary schemes a lot longer than those in the private sector and only slowly moved to final salary schemes when councils, the government and other public bodies realised they could not fund them. | |
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| European Elections on 11:51 - Jun 11 with 1117 views | AnotherJohn |
| European Elections on 10:14 - Jun 11 by felixstowe_jack |
Not wrong on public sector pension. Most of them stayed as final salary schemes a lot longer than those in the private sector and only slowly moved to final salary schemes when councils, the government and other public bodies realised they could not fund them. |
Generally speaking, public sector pensions did remain as final salary schemes (a form of defined-benefit pension) for longer than most private pensions, but several changed to become defined-contribution schemes some years ago. As far as I can see the civil service scheme is still defined benefit, but recent entrants are put on an Alpha scheme with a higher retirement age and less favourable accrual terms. Certain schemes still have a final salary section for pensioners who retired when that arrangement was still in operation. At least that is my understanding. [Post edited 11 Jun 12:08]
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| European Elections on 16:50 - Jun 11 with 1058 views | SullutaCreturned |
| European Elections on 22:39 - Jun 10 by JumpingJackFlash |
EU elections: I'm still somewhat bewildered, waiting for the 'far right surge'. While there have been losses on the left, most notably among the greens, the idea of a far right surge, being touted by most of the UK press, seems a trifle over emphasised.
Based on all 720 declared results, the 'far right' Identity & Democracy group have gained 9 seats, currently on 58, while the European Conservatives and Reformist group has gained 4, at 73. The traditional centre right block, the European People's Party, have also gained 9 seats and remain by some margin the largest block at 189 seats, but this contains such parties as Donald Tusk's Civic Coalition party, so it's hard to argue this is part of an anti-EU drift to the right. The other groupings, (the Non-Aligned group, which includes Orban's lot) and the Independents remain unchanged.
So basically the right and far right combined have made 'sweeping' gains amounting to 13 seats combined out of 720, now controlling 18% of the parliamentary seats. While they made gains in France, Germany and Netherlands, they lost ground elsewhere, particularly in Poland.
Europe does have many problems, but the desire in the British press to paint the whole continent as lurching towards Fascism a la 1938 appears to be another of Fleet Street's wet dreams. |
Well there are some countries lurching further to the left too!
Maybe the truth is that the far right really isn't THAT far to the right. Didn't somebody on here say our tories have been accused of going further right yet in reality they are not as far right as Thatcher was.
They all engage in hyperbole and we have to be careful which BS we believe. | | | |
| European Elections on 17:47 - Jun 11 with 1018 views | Joesus_Of_Narbereth |
| European Elections on 22:39 - Jun 10 by JumpingJackFlash |
EU elections: I'm still somewhat bewildered, waiting for the 'far right surge'. While there have been losses on the left, most notably among the greens, the idea of a far right surge, being touted by most of the UK press, seems a trifle over emphasised.
Based on all 720 declared results, the 'far right' Identity & Democracy group have gained 9 seats, currently on 58, while the European Conservatives and Reformist group has gained 4, at 73. The traditional centre right block, the European People's Party, have also gained 9 seats and remain by some margin the largest block at 189 seats, but this contains such parties as Donald Tusk's Civic Coalition party, so it's hard to argue this is part of an anti-EU drift to the right. The other groupings, (the Non-Aligned group, which includes Orban's lot) and the Independents remain unchanged.
So basically the right and far right combined have made 'sweeping' gains amounting to 13 seats combined out of 720, now controlling 18% of the parliamentary seats. While they made gains in France, Germany and Netherlands, they lost ground elsewhere, particularly in Poland.
Europe does have many problems, but the desire in the British press to paint the whole continent as lurching towards Fascism a la 1938 appears to be another of Fleet Street's wet dreams. |
That’s the result of the way seats are distributed in the European Parliament though. To take an example, in 2019 the “far right” brexit party won the election with 29 seats out of 73. So the other 44 seats went to pro eu parties like the libs, greens, plaid, labour etc. This is repeated across the continent meaning the pro EU parties always have a massive majority.
It’s almost as if it’s deliberately set up that way 😂 |  |
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| European Elections on 17:41 - Jun 12 with 909 views | Gwyn737 |
In 2016 we voted to leave the EU 52% to 48%.
Apart from some statistical noise during Covid, the direction of travel has been one way over the last 8 years.
Latest figures on whether we were right to leave stands at 31% right, 55% wrong with 15% at don’t know.
It what point do our politicians have to talk about seriously changing the relationship with the EU? [Post edited 12 Jun 17:48]
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| European Elections on 19:03 - Jun 12 with 864 views | SullutaCreturned |
| European Elections on 17:41 - Jun 12 by Gwyn737 |
In 2016 we voted to leave the EU 52% to 48%.
Apart from some statistical noise during Covid, the direction of travel has been one way over the last 8 years.
Latest figures on whether we were right to leave stands at 31% right, 55% wrong with 15% at don’t know.
It what point do our politicians have to talk about seriously changing the relationship with the EU? [Post edited 12 Jun 17:48]
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Well that was a yougov poll and as I remember it all the polls at the time said it was nailed on we'd vote to remain.
So maybe you'll see why I am a sceptic about polls. Unless we have another referendum we'll never know. It would be ironic if we did vote to rejoin when a large chunk of Europe has become more suspicious about EU membership.
If the EU gaveup politics and became solely a trading bloc I'd rejoin tomorrow. | | | |
| European Elections on 20:03 - Jun 12 with 823 views | Gwyn737 |
| European Elections on 19:03 - Jun 12 by SullutaCreturned |
Well that was a yougov poll and as I remember it all the polls at the time said it was nailed on we'd vote to remain.
So maybe you'll see why I am a sceptic about polls. Unless we have another referendum we'll never know. It would be ironic if we did vote to rejoin when a large chunk of Europe has become more suspicious about EU membership.
If the EU gaveup politics and became solely a trading bloc I'd rejoin tomorrow. |
Maybe that’s what we should work towards, Cat 🤷 | | | |
| European Elections on 20:41 - Jun 12 with 801 views | Dr_Winston |
| European Elections on 20:03 - Jun 12 by Gwyn737 |
Maybe that’s what we should work towards, Cat 🤷 |
Would require all the leading European politicos to give up their frequently denied but fairly obvious dreams of one United States of Europe, with one largely unelected Governing body, one currency, one military, one flag, one anthem etc.
Unlikely. If they'd shown even the slightest willingness to abandon any part of it then maybe Cameron might have won enough concessions to swing the referendum his way in the first place. | |
| Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f*cking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back. |
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| European Elections on 21:58 - Jun 12 with 741 views | Gwyn737 |
| European Elections on 20:41 - Jun 12 by Dr_Winston |
Would require all the leading European politicos to give up their frequently denied but fairly obvious dreams of one United States of Europe, with one largely unelected Governing body, one currency, one military, one flag, one anthem etc.
Unlikely. If they'd shown even the slightest willingness to abandon any part of it then maybe Cameron might have won enough concessions to swing the referendum his way in the first place. |
When do you think we’d have had to have say the Euro, as an example? | | | |
| European Elections on 06:57 - Jun 13 with 685 views | Dr_Winston |
| European Elections on 21:58 - Jun 12 by Gwyn737 |
When do you think we’d have had to have say the Euro, as an example? |
If we have ambitions of ever rejoining it would be a pre-requisite. They'd love to get the UK economy tied to it. If we'd stayed? I've said in this thread I suspect the whole shebang will collapse in a couple of decades anyway so probably never.
That doesn't change the dream though. And their single minded pursuit of the dream against all common sense and will of the populace is what will do for it in the end. | |
| Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f*cking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back. |
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| European Elections on 08:07 - Jun 13 with 674 views | AnotherJohn |
| European Elections on 21:58 - Jun 12 by Gwyn737 |
When do you think we’d have had to have say the Euro, as an example? |
What struck me was that the UK's half-in, half-out status, with no Euro, no Schengen, the rebate negotiated by Thatcher, and what Cameron called the UK's special status, was not sustainable. There was a pressure towards convergence in line with the Treaty statement on "ever closer union" that I do not think could have been resisted in the long term. That would have meant being locked into a framework of EU law - the "acquis communautaire" - which ensured that certain policies could not be changed by national governments. So as I saw it, .the referendum was a "now or never" moment, when it came down to either accepting that future or keeping our ability to determine our own national policies. Unfortunately, the squabbles and punishment attempts that followed have not been handled well by our Government. [Post edited 13 Jun 8:12]
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| European Elections on 08:23 - Jun 13 with 667 views | Dr_Winston |
| European Elections on 08:07 - Jun 13 by AnotherJohn |
What struck me was that the UK's half-in, half-out status, with no Euro, no Schengen, the rebate negotiated by Thatcher, and what Cameron called the UK's special status, was not sustainable. There was a pressure towards convergence in line with the Treaty statement on "ever closer union" that I do not think could have been resisted in the long term. That would have meant being locked into a framework of EU law - the "acquis communautaire" - which ensured that certain policies could not be changed by national governments. So as I saw it, .the referendum was a "now or never" moment, when it came down to either accepting that future or keeping our ability to determine our own national policies. Unfortunately, the squabbles and punishment attempts that followed have not been handled well by our Government. [Post edited 13 Jun 8:12]
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Yeah but, "racism" or something. | |
| Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f*cking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back. |
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| European Elections on 09:52 - Jun 13 with 638 views | Joesus_Of_Narbereth |
| European Elections on 08:07 - Jun 13 by AnotherJohn |
What struck me was that the UK's half-in, half-out status, with no Euro, no Schengen, the rebate negotiated by Thatcher, and what Cameron called the UK's special status, was not sustainable. There was a pressure towards convergence in line with the Treaty statement on "ever closer union" that I do not think could have been resisted in the long term. That would have meant being locked into a framework of EU law - the "acquis communautaire" - which ensured that certain policies could not be changed by national governments. So as I saw it, .the referendum was a "now or never" moment, when it came down to either accepting that future or keeping our ability to determine our own national policies. Unfortunately, the squabbles and punishment attempts that followed have not been handled well by our Government. [Post edited 13 Jun 8:12]
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We should have had a referendum on Maastricht, Nice and Lisbon really. Both parties promised them on several occasions. It should not be within the governments remit to sign powers away or fundamentally change the constitutional nature of our country without consent. | |
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| European Elections on 11:51 - Jun 13 with 578 views | Wingstandwood |
| European Elections on 08:07 - Jun 13 by AnotherJohn |
What struck me was that the UK's half-in, half-out status, with no Euro, no Schengen, the rebate negotiated by Thatcher, and what Cameron called the UK's special status, was not sustainable. There was a pressure towards convergence in line with the Treaty statement on "ever closer union" that I do not think could have been resisted in the long term. That would have meant being locked into a framework of EU law - the "acquis communautaire" - which ensured that certain policies could not be changed by national governments. So as I saw it, .the referendum was a "now or never" moment, when it came down to either accepting that future or keeping our ability to determine our own national policies. Unfortunately, the squabbles and punishment attempts that followed have not been handled well by our Government. [Post edited 13 Jun 8:12]
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And boy wasn't if arf an excuse to reward the likes of the utterly talentless Kinnock dynasty (and others!) with a multi million pound fortune, that was estimated to be an utterley (a bunch of 'reds' keeping the red flag flying?) staggering sum of £10 MILLION...... and that was fifteen years ago!
A world where abysmal zero-end-product hot-air-merchants come 'champagne socialist hypocrites' could thrive by filling their boots without a single shred of shame, or self awareness.
A world where free holidays to exclusive picture postcard locations were disguised as "fact-finding/poverty Initiatives/international relations". The one where a 'poverty awareness mission' ended up as a great excuse to go on an expensive cruise was an all time classic.
I bet you can all guess who was 'onboard' for that one!!!!
QUOTE: "In addition to the visit undertaken by Mrs Kinnock, Open Europe has also criticised trips by MEPs to destinations such as Bali, St Lucia, Australia and Barbados." END OF QUOTE.
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/glenys-kinnock-defends-fishy-trips
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/campaign-highlights-kinnocks-10m-e
https://www.standard.co.uk/hp/front/glenys-one-of-30-meps-in-brussels-expenses-r |  |
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| European Elections on 16:09 - Jun 13 with 501 views | SullutaCreturned |
| European Elections on 08:23 - Jun 13 by Dr_Winston |
Yeah but, "racism" or something. |
Yeah, some people still don't buy that many of us were genuinely worried about the future of our country as a sovereign democracy. Obviously taking into account that many of us also believe our own elected politicians have been destroying our democracy for decades anyway, piece by piece. | | | |
| European Elections on 16:36 - Jun 13 with 494 views | Dr_Winston |
| European Elections on 16:09 - Jun 13 by SullutaCreturned |
Yeah, some people still don't buy that many of us were genuinely worried about the future of our country as a sovereign democracy. Obviously taking into account that many of us also believe our own elected politicians have been destroying our democracy for decades anyway, piece by piece. |
I don't doubt for a split second that lots of racists voted for Brexit. A stopped clock is right twice a day.
Europe is great. I've been to France and Ireland numerous times. I'd love to spend some time in Germany, Austria (Vienna Christmas Market is on my bucket list) and Italy. I have no desire however, nor I suspect would the average citizen of said nations, to have decisions critical to the future of the UK being made by a cabal containing unelected Belgians, Spaniards, Danes or Luxembourgers.
I'm not fond of the concept of the House of Lords, but at least most of them are British. | |
| Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f*cking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back. |
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