| Protests Today 19:57 - Jun 6 with 12117 views | Boris_ |
Disgusting scenes today in London, scumbags even attacking horses.
But we're all supposed to accept it because they are rioting about an incident in another country 4000 miles away?
Let's see what's on the front pages of the left wing press tomorrow, I bet it won't be pictures of horses coming under attack and a Policeman being knocked off his horse causing the horse to run away in fear?
To think the vast majority of those out protesting today would have had the nerve to be shouting and screaming about Cummings too...
[Post edited 6 Jun 2020 19:58]
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| Protests Today on 19:04 - Jun 8 with 1305 views | 1885_SFC |
| Protests Today on 18:52 - Jun 8 by DorsetIan |
There are worse things. Local acquaintance has a pewter relief of Hitler's face in his sitting room. Claims he just likes it is an object...mmm... |
He's lucky. I have to stare at a photo of the mother-in-law in my living room.
Uncannily - a remarkable resemblance to the Fuhrer and I kid you not (especially the tache)! |  |
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| Protests Today on 19:20 - Jun 8 with 1287 views | Happy_Jack |
| Protests Today on 19:04 - Jun 8 by 1885_SFC |
He's lucky. I have to stare at a photo of the mother-in-law in my living room.
Uncannily - a remarkable resemblance to the Fuhrer and I kid you not (especially the tache)! |
My first wife looked a lot like Daisy Duke which was surprising given that her Mother was an absolute ringer for Boss Hogg |  |
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| Protests Today on 19:37 - Jun 8 with 1276 views | Bazza |
| Protests Today on 14:41 - Jun 8 by Sadoldgit |
Starmer got it right. Statues are there to commemorate great deeds/people. Slavery is a stain on our history. The statue should have been removed properly a long time ago and put in a museum along with some text explaining that this man was partly responsible for the transportation of over 80,000 Africans to slavery in America (including women and children) of whom over 19,000 died in transit. [Post edited 8 Jun 2020 16:08]
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Slavery was ‘A stain on our society’ certainly but in no way unique to the UK. But you need to remember that slavery was extremely common well into the Middle Ages and later. Basically the victors made the losers slaves across most of Europe and the Middle East. The Vikings took brits as slaves and the Domesday book recorded about 10% slaves later to be called serfs. The Moors had slaves, Crusaders,Saracens and Muslims took each other as slaves. Slave was the origin of the word slav.
So I resent modern day liberals using slavery in our history to try to give us a guilt trip. |  | | |
| Protests Today on 20:08 - Jun 8 with 1250 views | DorsetIan |
| Protests Today on 19:37 - Jun 8 by Bazza |
Slavery was ‘A stain on our society’ certainly but in no way unique to the UK. But you need to remember that slavery was extremely common well into the Middle Ages and later. Basically the victors made the losers slaves across most of Europe and the Middle East. The Vikings took brits as slaves and the Domesday book recorded about 10% slaves later to be called serfs. The Moors had slaves, Crusaders,Saracens and Muslims took each other as slaves. Slave was the origin of the word slav.
So I resent modern day liberals using slavery in our history to try to give us a guilt trip. |
Why should this country not feel guilty about slavery? Just because we didn't invent slavery, doesn't make it any less terrible or change the fact that we prospered tremendously from it.
If you look at country like Germany and the way it has faced its terrible past, you can see that a country will, in the long run, benefit from a realistic accounting with itself.
All this harking back to a mythically wonderful British Empire, is just holding us back. We need to be honest about what we did well, the errors that we made and the country that we now are. There really is nothing to be frightened off. | |
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| Protests Today on 20:25 - Jun 8 with 1234 views | Bazza |
| Protests Today on 20:08 - Jun 8 by DorsetIan |
Why should this country not feel guilty about slavery? Just because we didn't invent slavery, doesn't make it any less terrible or change the fact that we prospered tremendously from it.
If you look at country like Germany and the way it has faced its terrible past, you can see that a country will, in the long run, benefit from a realistic accounting with itself.
All this harking back to a mythically wonderful British Empire, is just holding us back. We need to be honest about what we did well, the errors that we made and the country that we now are. There really is nothing to be frightened off. |
Because it was hundreds of years ago. Because it was not unusual. Because many Britons were made slaves eg by the Romans.
I never mentioned any empire | | | |
| Protests Today on 20:43 - Jun 8 with 1222 views | DorsetIan |
| Protests Today on 20:25 - Jun 8 by Bazza |
Because it was hundreds of years ago. Because it was not unusual. Because many Britons were made slaves eg by the Romans.
I never mentioned any empire |
You didn't, but your post is typical of an attitude that wants to gloss over the past.
And it's not that long ago. Slavery Abolition Act 1833. And the final repayment on the £15m loan that the British govt took out to compensate slave owners (no compensation paid to slaves) was not made until 2015.
And even when it stopped, the world did not simply revery to its pre-slave trade position, the inequalities that were then set continued and are still visible today.
The pulling down of the Bristol statue is hopefully another step along the way of us facing up to our role in the slave trade, and how we benefitted from it. | |
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| Protests Today on 20:53 - Jun 8 with 1188 views | Sadoldgit |
| Protests Today on 19:37 - Jun 8 by Bazza |
Slavery was ‘A stain on our society’ certainly but in no way unique to the UK. But you need to remember that slavery was extremely common well into the Middle Ages and later. Basically the victors made the losers slaves across most of Europe and the Middle East. The Vikings took brits as slaves and the Domesday book recorded about 10% slaves later to be called serfs. The Moors had slaves, Crusaders,Saracens and Muslims took each other as slaves. Slave was the origin of the word slav.
So I resent modern day liberals using slavery in our history to try to give us a guilt trip. |
Yes slavery goes back years, but so do many things that we gradually realise are wrong as we mature as human beings. We stopped burning witches at the stake. We stopped (well in certain countries) hanging people. Why? Because it was wrong. There was a civil war in the US not that far back in history fought over slavery. Many people made a great deal of money out of it and the British Empire was built on it. Yes, we weren't the only ones, but we share a responsibility and need to accept that responsibility. |  | | |
| Protests Today on 20:55 - Jun 8 with 1215 views | Chesham_Saint |
| Protests Today on 20:08 - Jun 8 by DorsetIan |
Why should this country not feel guilty about slavery? Just because we didn't invent slavery, doesn't make it any less terrible or change the fact that we prospered tremendously from it.
If you look at country like Germany and the way it has faced its terrible past, you can see that a country will, in the long run, benefit from a realistic accounting with itself.
All this harking back to a mythically wonderful British Empire, is just holding us back. We need to be honest about what we did well, the errors that we made and the country that we now are. There really is nothing to be frightened off. |
You reference Germany. What about Japan which has never apologised For its equally appalling war record? It’s managed to flourish despite this, |  |
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| Protests Today on 20:56 - Jun 8 with 1185 views | Sadoldgit |
| Protests Today on 20:55 - Jun 8 by Chesham_Saint |
You reference Germany. What about Japan which has never apologised For its equally appalling war record? It’s managed to flourish despite this, |
They officially apologised in 2003. | | | |
| Protests Today on 21:15 - Jun 8 with 1203 views | DorsetIan |
| Protests Today on 20:55 - Jun 8 by Chesham_Saint |
You reference Germany. What about Japan which has never apologised For its equally appalling war record? It’s managed to flourish despite this, |
I agree that that Japan has not, as a nation, fully acknowledged/internalised what it did in the second world war (well not in the way that Germany has anyway) but neither does it cling to it's pre-War Imperial vision of itself.
Arguably too, Japan was so comprehensively defeated (and devastated) that it was impossible for it to form a rose-tinted view of it's history.
It should be possible for Britain to be proud of itself without airbrushing the past.
In my opinion, national humility is no bad thing. | |
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| Protests Today on 21:38 - Jun 8 with 1193 views | Bicester_North |
It’s right that everyone should be taught about history including slavery, but all the constant race talk and trying to make people feel guilty about things that happened many years before they were born, and that they had no part in, just fuels division and makes racists more extreme.
Just look at the USA, their history of race issues is more recent than the UK, but it seems like there is massive racial division over there, and if people in the UK keep trying to follow their example it’ll get worse here. [Post edited 8 Jun 2020 21:41]
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| Protests Today on 22:17 - Jun 8 with 1158 views | DorsetIan |
| Protests Today on 21:38 - Jun 8 by Bicester_North |
It’s right that everyone should be taught about history including slavery, but all the constant race talk and trying to make people feel guilty about things that happened many years before they were born, and that they had no part in, just fuels division and makes racists more extreme.
Just look at the USA, their history of race issues is more recent than the UK, but it seems like there is massive racial division over there, and if people in the UK keep trying to follow their example it’ll get worse here. [Post edited 8 Jun 2020 21:41]
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Nobody is trying to make anyone 'feel guilty'. It's not about that. It's about a proper acknowledgement of what happened in the past, who it happened to, and who the perpetrators and beneficiaries were. And how those things still resonate today.
Do you think that statues of slave traders should stand in UK cities?
More generally, what would you suggest to reduce racism and racial inequality? | |
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| Protests Today on 22:29 - Jun 8 with 1142 views | Chesham_Saint |
| Protests Today on 21:15 - Jun 8 by DorsetIan |
I agree that that Japan has not, as a nation, fully acknowledged/internalised what it did in the second world war (well not in the way that Germany has anyway) but neither does it cling to it's pre-War Imperial vision of itself.
Arguably too, Japan was so comprehensively defeated (and devastated) that it was impossible for it to form a rose-tinted view of it's history.
It should be possible for Britain to be proud of itself without airbrushing the past.
In my opinion, national humility is no bad thing. |
Not fully acknowledged you say? It hasn’t even come close. For example, The Budokan is still sacred and visited by senior local politicians.
You only have to reaction of Burma Star veterans to their erstwhile foe compared to those who fought elsewhere. There’s also a very good reason why the Chinese despise Japan to this day, | |
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| Protests Today on 22:39 - Jun 8 with 1131 views | Bazza |
| Protests Today on 22:17 - Jun 8 by DorsetIan |
Nobody is trying to make anyone 'feel guilty'. It's not about that. It's about a proper acknowledgement of what happened in the past, who it happened to, and who the perpetrators and beneficiaries were. And how those things still resonate today.
Do you think that statues of slave traders should stand in UK cities?
More generally, what would you suggest to reduce racism and racial inequality? |
It’s ridiculous to apologise; it’s just mere words relating to previous generations. Should we ask descendants of Moors to apologise, maybe Romans to Gauls, Muslims to Christians? Actions are what is required not just posturing and positive actions have to be small steps influencing mind changes. | | | |
| Protests Today on 22:45 - Jun 8 with 1125 views | Bicester_North |
| Protests Today on 22:17 - Jun 8 by DorsetIan |
Nobody is trying to make anyone 'feel guilty'. It's not about that. It's about a proper acknowledgement of what happened in the past, who it happened to, and who the perpetrators and beneficiaries were. And how those things still resonate today.
Do you think that statues of slave traders should stand in UK cities?
More generally, what would you suggest to reduce racism and racial inequality? |
Yes there are loads of people trying to make whites feel guilty, as evidenced by loads of young people apologising online for their “privilege”.
To say nobody is, is utter blinkered bollocks.
With slave trader statues, they should be in museums not in city centres, but to accept people destroying them when they feel like it sets a dangerous precedent.
Education reduces racism, and that is on all school currriculums. Racism has been dying out in the UK for generations.
Copying the USA as all the helmet protestors are doing just drags everything back towards their levels. | |
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| Protests Today on 22:52 - Jun 8 with 1120 views | DorsetIan |
| Protests Today on 22:29 - Jun 8 by Chesham_Saint |
Not fully acknowledged you say? It hasn’t even come close. For example, The Budokan is still sacred and visited by senior local politicians.
You only have to reaction of Burma Star veterans to their erstwhile foe compared to those who fought elsewhere. There’s also a very good reason why the Chinese despise Japan to this day, |
I don't think we disagree. I was always struck by the fact that while the Germans were ruthlessly and mechanically indifferent to the death and suffering they were causing, the Japanese seemed positively cruel and sadistic.
I also remember a colleague telling me that he had met a young Japanese woman who had told him that he wouldn't have heard of the town she came from, and then telling him it was Nagasaki, as if she had no idea of the history of her own town.
The reason I said 'fully' is because SoG is right that there have have been official acknowledgements of what they did and the suffering they caused. It's just I don't think it feeds very deep into their culture. | |
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| Protests Today on 09:45 - Jun 9 with 1027 views | Bison |
| Protests Today on 22:52 - Jun 8 by DorsetIan |
I don't think we disagree. I was always struck by the fact that while the Germans were ruthlessly and mechanically indifferent to the death and suffering they were causing, the Japanese seemed positively cruel and sadistic.
I also remember a colleague telling me that he had met a young Japanese woman who had told him that he wouldn't have heard of the town she came from, and then telling him it was Nagasaki, as if she had no idea of the history of her own town.
The reason I said 'fully' is because SoG is right that there have have been official acknowledgements of what they did and the suffering they caused. It's just I don't think it feeds very deep into their culture. |
I worked for a Japanese company back in the 90's and it was interesting to hear of their education system. More or less each child of a certain age does the same lesson on the same day across the country. Also they were not taught about the war in depth and it was only when they were over here in London that they discovered about their war history and the atrocities committed , they were genuinly shocked and many refused to believe it.
On the other side though the Japanese are the most reverent and respectful nation of people I have ever met. I found it hard to relate them to the war time generation our grandfathers fought but I suppose we could say the same regarding the Germans of the same era. |  |
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| Protests Today on 11:42 - Jun 9 with 1000 views | Sadoldgit |
Back in the 70’s a young Japanese family rented the house next door. As said, they could not have been more respectful or gentle. It’s hard to reconcile what you see now to what happened in the early part of the last century. The Rape of Nanking is a horror story along with the appalling treatment of PoWs etc. They even forced their own women to have sex with their soldiers - comfort wives. Owning your past is part of the healing process. This isn’t about a guilt trip but about understanding where you have been so that you understand where we are now.
What has been great about the statue incident is that people across the board are now talking about our slaving history. I knew nothing of Colston until the other day and whilst I recognise some of the contemporary names mentioned along with his, this has given me a wider understanding of what was going on in those times.
I was taught about all of the great British heroes at school, but not about our part in the slave trade. We need to know this stuff. [Post edited 9 Jun 2020 11:43]
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| Protests Today on 12:20 - Jun 9 with 995 views | Chesham_Saint |
| Protests Today on 11:42 - Jun 9 by Sadoldgit |
Back in the 70’s a young Japanese family rented the house next door. As said, they could not have been more respectful or gentle. It’s hard to reconcile what you see now to what happened in the early part of the last century. The Rape of Nanking is a horror story along with the appalling treatment of PoWs etc. They even forced their own women to have sex with their soldiers - comfort wives. Owning your past is part of the healing process. This isn’t about a guilt trip but about understanding where you have been so that you understand where we are now.
What has been great about the statue incident is that people across the board are now talking about our slaving history. I knew nothing of Colston until the other day and whilst I recognise some of the contemporary names mentioned along with his, this has given me a wider understanding of what was going on in those times.
I was taught about all of the great British heroes at school, but not about our part in the slave trade. We need to know this stuff. [Post edited 9 Jun 2020 11:43]
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I'm surprise you weren't aware of the slave trade as I thought William Wilberforce was a famous figure? | |
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| Protests Today on 09:14 - Jun 10 with 926 views | 1885_SFC |
Spare a thought for the poor souls who have to retrieve the Colston statue from Bristol Harbour.
Let's hear it for the Quay workers. | |
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| Protests Today on 11:59 - Jun 10 with 889 views | Sadoldgit |
| Protests Today on 12:20 - Jun 9 by Chesham_Saint |
I'm surprise you weren't aware of the slave trade as I thought William Wilberforce was a famous figure? |
I was aware of the slave trade but had never heard of Colston. We probably spent about 10 minutes on Wilberforce but hardly any time on the effects of slavery in general. We spent plenty of time on Trafalgar, Waterloo, the building of the Empire etc though. [Post edited 10 Jun 2020 12:13]
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