| Asset strip away, strip away....Left with a SWAN CARCASS 18:36 - Aug 2 with 38452 views | castlejack |
13 players out, 3 players signed
Just heard Mawson deal now confirmed, and club seem content with £8m for Clueless.
This is so depressing,
Having worked in the City for many years, I knew these bustard yanks would asset strip us for years which started even before their first season as owners had started....
But this is bordering on ridiculous. The rate of pillage is speeding up and the vultures have now successfully left us with a SWAN CARCASS.
The parachute payments are only ever one click away as they disappear electronically across the Atlantic.
In the words of Gordon Gekko in Wall Street, when asked Why have you wrecked our company/club....
BECAUSE ITS WRECK-ABLE |  |
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| Asset strip away, strip away....Left with a SWAN CARCASS on 11:11 - Aug 3 with 2284 views | Uxbridge |
| Asset strip away, strip away....Left with a SWAN CARCASS on 10:12 - Aug 3 by awayjack |
Ux good to know the historic management accounts are scrutinised. Do the trust also see profit / cash flow forecasts, say for next 12 months? Pretty basic for any business and it should give an idea of what the plans are - i.e.
- cut costs, sell assets and build up cash for rainy day / dividends / relegation.
- cut costs but re-invest proportion of transfer proceeds in squad to get back into PL. |
Yes, forecasts and cashflow statements are typically included, although haven't seen the revised for 2018/19 and beyond yet .. given the state of flux, that's not entirely surprising.
We know the rough plans and it's going to be closer to the latter than the former. We're seeing signings already. More desperately needed of course. Need to be vigilant of course though. |  |
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| Asset strip away, strip away....Left with a SWAN CARCASS on 12:26 - Aug 3 with 2225 views | Shaky |
| Asset strip away, strip away....Left with a SWAN CARCASS on 09:05 - Aug 3 by Uxbridge |
It'd have to be disclosed as something. A sudden drop in cash, increase in liabilities. I see more value in that access than you do, but never mind.
Not sure where you're going with your question there. I voted for the part sale, even if I didn't particularly like elements of it. I've never been much of a fan of access without influence. There's value in retaining a stake and access, we're not a typical shareholder solely interested in the financial aspect of the shareholding (although it's a significant factor of course) and mediation will tell us what the options are. We'll see on that.
The ideal has always been the Trust's position at the club and shareholder value is protected and meaningful influence at the club exists but we're some way away from that position at the moment. Unless there's a change of approach on one side, this may only go in one direction. We'll see. |
Where I am going is to state my belief that that the importance of access to management accounts is illusory, given you have no ability to influence what goes in to them, and are clearly bound by confidentiality.
At a time when you and Phil seem to be talking up the importance of access, which is only obtained through virtue of the Trust's shareholding.
Phil came back in on a promise of righting the wrongs of the past and steering a new direction for the Trust. But already he has stamped on the idea of opening up the membership signalling steady as she goes on the existing policy that has seen interest and membership steadily atrophy.
And is now talking up a grace and favour right only bestowed on shareholders.
That makes me a little concerned. |  |
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| Asset strip away, strip away....Left with a SWAN CARCASS on 12:27 - Aug 3 with 2224 views | Shaky |
| Asset strip away, strip away....Left with a SWAN CARCASS on 11:11 - Aug 3 by Uxbridge |
Yes, forecasts and cashflow statements are typically included, although haven't seen the revised for 2018/19 and beyond yet .. given the state of flux, that's not entirely surprising.
We know the rough plans and it's going to be closer to the latter than the former. We're seeing signings already. More desperately needed of course. Need to be vigilant of course though. |
Do you get balance sheets? | |
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| Asset strip away, strip away....Left with a SWAN CARCASS on 12:31 - Aug 3 with 2216 views | awayjack |
| Asset strip away, strip away....Left with a SWAN CARCASS on 11:11 - Aug 3 by Uxbridge |
Yes, forecasts and cashflow statements are typically included, although haven't seen the revised for 2018/19 and beyond yet .. given the state of flux, that's not entirely surprising.
We know the rough plans and it's going to be closer to the latter than the former. We're seeing signings already. More desperately needed of course. Need to be vigilant of course though. |
Thanks Ux - good to know plan is to reinvest. Let's hope we get a few signings over the line. |  | | |
| Asset strip away, strip away....Left with a SWAN CARCASS on 12:41 - Aug 3 with 2194 views | castlejack |
| Asset strip away, strip away....Left with a SWAN CARCASS on 10:12 - Aug 3 by awayjack |
Ux good to know the historic management accounts are scrutinised. Do the trust also see profit / cash flow forecasts, say for next 12 months? Pretty basic for any business and it should give an idea of what the plans are - i.e.
- cut costs, sell assets and build up cash for rainy day / dividends / relegation.
- cut costs but re-invest proportion of transfer proceeds in squad to get back into PL. |
The management acs will only show the trading position if its limited to a profit and loss account, and will not show what is happening to the assets and liabilities of the club, and yanks can do what they like behind the scenes
I would be interested to know if the following KEY statements are also included in the monthly management accounts:
Must have a balance sheet !! With monthly movements to assets and liabilities
Cash flow statement
P&L
Projections of P&L, Cashflow and Balance Sheet
Commentary of key events, movements, disbursements to directors / shareholders
Phil S seems in best position to disclose.... Are all of these financials included in the monthly management acs?
If not, the finance committee will be out foxed by the yanks.
Also, how quickly are Mgt a s provided, timeliness is everything, so should be within a reasonable time after the end of each month
Thanks in advance | |
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| Asset strip away, strip away....Left with a SWAN CARCASS on 12:47 - Aug 3 with 2182 views | Shaky |
| Asset strip away, strip away....Left with a SWAN CARCASS on 12:41 - Aug 3 by castlejack |
The management acs will only show the trading position if its limited to a profit and loss account, and will not show what is happening to the assets and liabilities of the club, and yanks can do what they like behind the scenes
I would be interested to know if the following KEY statements are also included in the monthly management accounts:
Must have a balance sheet !! With monthly movements to assets and liabilities
Cash flow statement
P&L
Projections of P&L, Cashflow and Balance Sheet
Commentary of key events, movements, disbursements to directors / shareholders
Phil S seems in best position to disclose.... Are all of these financials included in the monthly management acs?
If not, the finance committee will be out foxed by the yanks.
Also, how quickly are Mgt a s provided, timeliness is everything, so should be within a reasonable time after the end of each month
Thanks in advance |
There is nothing to steal.
The club is substantially flat broke. | |
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| Asset strip away, strip away....Left with a SWAN CARCASS on 12:52 - Aug 3 with 2161 views | Phil_S |
| Asset strip away, strip away....Left with a SWAN CARCASS on 12:26 - Aug 3 by Shaky |
Where I am going is to state my belief that that the importance of access to management accounts is illusory, given you have no ability to influence what goes in to them, and are clearly bound by confidentiality.
At a time when you and Phil seem to be talking up the importance of access, which is only obtained through virtue of the Trust's shareholding.
Phil came back in on a promise of righting the wrongs of the past and steering a new direction for the Trust. But already he has stamped on the idea of opening up the membership signalling steady as she goes on the existing policy that has seen interest and membership steadily atrophy.
And is now talking up a grace and favour right only bestowed on shareholders.
That makes me a little concerned. |
See the problem with many of your posts is you jump to wild accusations and conclusions that bear no resemblance to what is actually posted just bears resemblance to whatever argument you want to make.
You have every right to be as concerned as you want to be but just remember that your way is not the right way all the times and there will always be an opposing view that if you weren't so egotistical you maybe able to say.
If you forgive me now I won't spend much time responding to you purely on the basis that I don't have to and you have no desire to understand/appreciate that there is an opposite/different point of view.
Oh and plus you love a good insult which from experience weakens most arguments
This post has been edited by an administrator |  | | |
| Asset strip away, strip away....Left with a SWAN CARCASS on 12:57 - Aug 3 with 2146 views | Shaky |
| Asset strip away, strip away....Left with a SWAN CARCASS on 12:52 - Aug 3 by Phil_S |
See the problem with many of your posts is you jump to wild accusations and conclusions that bear no resemblance to what is actually posted just bears resemblance to whatever argument you want to make.
You have every right to be as concerned as you want to be but just remember that your way is not the right way all the times and there will always be an opposing view that if you weren't so egotistical you maybe able to say.
If you forgive me now I won't spend much time responding to you purely on the basis that I don't have to and you have no desire to understand/appreciate that there is an opposite/different point of view.
Oh and plus you love a good insult which from experience weakens most arguments
This post has been edited by an administrator |
I wasn't asking for your response.
I was making a couple of points, and I am sure if they were that wild you would have attempted to spin somehow.
What i will add though, Phil, is I sincerely don't hope you put yourself forward for chairman. No doubt you still enjoy considerable support in the Trustosphere but as I see it you've fcuked up enough already. | |
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| Asset strip away, strip away....Left with a SWAN CARCASS on 13:00 - Aug 3 with 2142 views | Phil_S |
| Asset strip away, strip away....Left with a SWAN CARCASS on 12:57 - Aug 3 by Shaky |
I wasn't asking for your response.
I was making a couple of points, and I am sure if they were that wild you would have attempted to spin somehow.
What i will add though, Phil, is I sincerely don't hope you put yourself forward for chairman. No doubt you still enjoy considerable support in the Trustosphere but as I see it you've fcuked up enough already. |
Thanks Shakes, I am sure you know what your endorsement means... | | | |
| Asset strip away, strip away....Left with a SWAN CARCASS on 13:04 - Aug 3 with 2133 views | Shaky |
| Asset strip away, strip away....Left with a SWAN CARCASS on 13:00 - Aug 3 by Phil_S |
Thanks Shakes, I am sure you know what your endorsement means... |
As much as your election promises? | |
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| Asset strip away, strip away....Left with a SWAN CARCASS on 13:06 - Aug 3 with 2124 views | Phil_S |
| Asset strip away, strip away....Left with a SWAN CARCASS on 13:04 - Aug 3 by Shaky |
As much as your election promises? |
Different scales | | | |
| Asset strip away, strip away....Left with a SWAN CARCASS on 13:23 - Aug 3 with 2073 views | Shaky |
| Asset strip away, strip away....Left with a SWAN CARCASS on 13:06 - Aug 3 by Phil_S |
Different scales |
So you do intend to stand?
Before doing so, perhaps you should reflect further and more candidly on why Jenkins shouldn't be allowed a chance to right the disaster he has presided over, but you should? | |
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| Asset strip away, strip away....Left with a SWAN CARCASS on 13:28 - Aug 3 with 2055 views | awayjack |
| Asset strip away, strip away....Left with a SWAN CARCASS on 12:41 - Aug 3 by castlejack |
The management acs will only show the trading position if its limited to a profit and loss account, and will not show what is happening to the assets and liabilities of the club, and yanks can do what they like behind the scenes
I would be interested to know if the following KEY statements are also included in the monthly management accounts:
Must have a balance sheet !! With monthly movements to assets and liabilities
Cash flow statement
P&L
Projections of P&L, Cashflow and Balance Sheet
Commentary of key events, movements, disbursements to directors / shareholders
Phil S seems in best position to disclose.... Are all of these financials included in the monthly management acs?
If not, the finance committee will be out foxed by the yanks.
Also, how quickly are Mgt a s provided, timeliness is everything, so should be within a reasonable time after the end of each month
Thanks in advance |
Yup agree all this financial info is basic requirement for reasonable sized business. Also our operating revenue is fairly easy to predict as Parachute payments, TV deals, Sponsorships, Gate receipts etc are all easy to forecast when we know the league we're in. Player transactions and associated wages are therefore the big variables.
My question was general plan around players in and out, to gage intent that's behind the budgets and forecasts. There's a lot of speculation about are we selling our best players and keeping funds for future dividends / rainy day or reinvesting in new squad.
Naturally things change but from Ux reply plan and supporting budgets / forecasts approved by Board (and Trust) seems to be to reinvest in the squad. My concern was we sell our best players for say £50m-£60m and only re-invest a small amount - say £10m - in new players. Relieved to hear this isn't the case so it's a question of getting the deals over the line. | | | |
| Asset strip away, strip away....Left with a SWAN CARCASS on 13:37 - Aug 3 with 2039 views | Phil_S |
| Asset strip away, strip away....Left with a SWAN CARCASS on 13:23 - Aug 3 by Shaky |
So you do intend to stand?
Before doing so, perhaps you should reflect further and more candidly on why Jenkins shouldn't be allowed a chance to right the disaster he has presided over, but you should? |
Thanks Shakes, I will reflect accordingly on your guidance and views in the same way that I usually do | | | |
| Asset strip away, strip away....Left with a SWAN CARCASS on 13:37 - Aug 3 with 2037 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Asset strip away, strip away....Left with a SWAN CARCASS on 07:44 - Aug 3 by Uxbridge |
If we ignore the fact the two clubs have completely different ownership structures, with Levien being the only common link, then the other obvious issue is that it would be somewhat legally questionable.
There's been a lot said about the value of the Trust looking to force a sale of its stake, but it's this sort of thing that shows the value of retaining one (at whatever level). Not just in terms of the visibility of the monthly management accounts (which the finance sub group of 3 have visibility to) but also that access to the finance team at the club. That's very valuable stuff. |
Actually the first bit is not true.
Kaplan and Levien are now the majority shareholders of DC United with the bulk of the money coming from other investors who are in the Swans consortium. The MLS signed off their new ownership structure this week!
But to just move money from one company to another is not legally questionable, it’s illegal full stop.
However, there is nothing to stop Kaplan / Levien declaring a dividend from the Swans (note the caveat below though) to take cash from the club and then investing their portion of that cash in DC United.
Caveat - you are only allowed to declare a dividend out of distributable reserves. That effectively means retained profits. The club does not have substantial retained profits so the distribution would be limited. The other point, of course, is that any dividend declared out of the club would see 21% of that dividend go to the Trust.
The other way that it is possible, would be for the Swans to buy a player / players from DC United for a large valuation. The Trust could do nothing to stop this unless it could prove that the player was only being bought to move money around (which would be a fraud against the minority). The thing that helps the Trust here is that there possibly won’t be many players at DC United that could get a work permit to play in the UK. They could also pay fees to D.C. United for something or other but again, the Trust could act.
So there are ways for them to do it, but the Trust would know about it pretty quickly and could aim to take legal action if the value of their holding was adversely affected. | | | |
| Asset strip away, strip away....Left with a SWAN CARCASS on 13:38 - Aug 3 with 2033 views | Shaky |
| Asset strip away, strip away....Left with a SWAN CARCASS on 13:37 - Aug 3 by Phil_S |
Thanks Shakes, I will reflect accordingly on your guidance and views in the same way that I usually do |
And look where that's got you, Foolish Phil. | |
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| Asset strip away, strip away....Left with a SWAN CARCASS on 13:41 - Aug 3 with 2027 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Asset strip away, strip away....Left with a SWAN CARCASS on 12:27 - Aug 3 by Shaky |
Do you get balance sheets? |
Yes. And balance sheet forecasts. | | | |
| Asset strip away, strip away....Left with a SWAN CARCASS on 13:46 - Aug 3 with 2008 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Asset strip away, strip away....Left with a SWAN CARCASS on 12:41 - Aug 3 by castlejack |
The management acs will only show the trading position if its limited to a profit and loss account, and will not show what is happening to the assets and liabilities of the club, and yanks can do what they like behind the scenes
I would be interested to know if the following KEY statements are also included in the monthly management accounts:
Must have a balance sheet !! With monthly movements to assets and liabilities
Cash flow statement
P&L
Projections of P&L, Cashflow and Balance Sheet
Commentary of key events, movements, disbursements to directors / shareholders
Phil S seems in best position to disclose.... Are all of these financials included in the monthly management acs?
If not, the finance committee will be out foxed by the yanks.
Also, how quickly are Mgt a s provided, timeliness is everything, so should be within a reasonable time after the end of each month
Thanks in advance |
I can answer.
Yes, we see monthly P&L, cash flow, balance sheets. Forecasts for all (again monthly). Cash headroom actual and projections. Details of facilities available.
Also calculations of player movements P&L. Monthly KPIs on FFP measures.
Some limited commentary. But we ask questions where something isn’t explained.
The caveat is that we haven’t seen the full forecasts as yet for the new season given our relegation (or at least, I haven’t). Some elements yes, but not all. Partly, I suspect, as the players in / out situation is so up in the air.
On your last point. Not as timely as I’d like to be honest, although timely enough that we’d pick up on stuff pretty quickly. | | | |
| Asset strip away, strip away....Left with a SWAN CARCASS on 14:03 - Aug 3 with 1961 views | Phil_S |
| Asset strip away, strip away....Left with a SWAN CARCASS on 13:38 - Aug 3 by Shaky |
And look where that's got you, Foolish Phil. |
Indeed but thanks for the insult anyway.
This post has been edited by an administrator | | | |
| Asset strip away, strip away....Left with a SWAN CARCASS on 14:57 - Aug 3 with 1891 views | Uxbridge |
| Asset strip away, strip away....Left with a SWAN CARCASS on 13:37 - Aug 3 by londonlisa2001 |
Actually the first bit is not true.
Kaplan and Levien are now the majority shareholders of DC United with the bulk of the money coming from other investors who are in the Swans consortium. The MLS signed off their new ownership structure this week!
But to just move money from one company to another is not legally questionable, it’s illegal full stop.
However, there is nothing to stop Kaplan / Levien declaring a dividend from the Swans (note the caveat below though) to take cash from the club and then investing their portion of that cash in DC United.
Caveat - you are only allowed to declare a dividend out of distributable reserves. That effectively means retained profits. The club does not have substantial retained profits so the distribution would be limited. The other point, of course, is that any dividend declared out of the club would see 21% of that dividend go to the Trust.
The other way that it is possible, would be for the Swans to buy a player / players from DC United for a large valuation. The Trust could do nothing to stop this unless it could prove that the player was only being bought to move money around (which would be a fraud against the minority). The thing that helps the Trust here is that there possibly won’t be many players at DC United that could get a work permit to play in the UK. They could also pay fees to D.C. United for something or other but again, the Trust could act.
So there are ways for them to do it, but the Trust would know about it pretty quickly and could aim to take legal action if the value of their holding was adversely affected. |
So they are. That's interesting. Just saw the news reports pop up on Newsnow. Very interesting.
Agree there are ways they could try if so inclined, as you outline. I agree with your conclusions. | |
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| Asset strip away, strip away....Left with a SWAN CARCASS on 14:58 - Aug 3 with 1889 views | Uxbridge |
| Asset strip away, strip away....Left with a SWAN CARCASS on 12:27 - Aug 3 by Shaky |
Do you get balance sheets? |
Yep | |
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| Asset strip away, strip away....Left with a SWAN CARCASS on 15:04 - Aug 3 with 1874 views | Uxbridge |
| Asset strip away, strip away....Left with a SWAN CARCASS on 12:26 - Aug 3 by Shaky |
Where I am going is to state my belief that that the importance of access to management accounts is illusory, given you have no ability to influence what goes in to them, and are clearly bound by confidentiality.
At a time when you and Phil seem to be talking up the importance of access, which is only obtained through virtue of the Trust's shareholding.
Phil came back in on a promise of righting the wrongs of the past and steering a new direction for the Trust. But already he has stamped on the idea of opening up the membership signalling steady as she goes on the existing policy that has seen interest and membership steadily atrophy.
And is now talking up a grace and favour right only bestowed on shareholders.
That makes me a little concerned. |
My position has never really changed on this. The ideal has always been the Trust retaining a stake in the club, ideally as large as possible.
Reality is different though. I don't know how I'll vote for any option which may mean we don't go down the legal route and attempt to force a sale because the option isn't in front of me. Once we get to that point, what we want is quite possibly out of everyone's hands apart from the judge. I think there's value in the Trust having a stake though. Always have. How much? Now there's a question. | |
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| Asset strip away, strip away....Left with a SWAN CARCASS on 15:14 - Aug 3 with 1845 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Asset strip away, strip away....Left with a SWAN CARCASS on 14:57 - Aug 3 by Uxbridge |
So they are. That's interesting. Just saw the news reports pop up on Newsnow. Very interesting.
Agree there are ways they could try if so inclined, as you outline. I agree with your conclusions. |
I saw it in the Washington Post.
Hmm. | | | |
| Asset strip away, strip away....Left with a SWAN CARCASS on 16:13 - Aug 3 with 1793 views | Uxbridge |
| Asset strip away, strip away....Left with a SWAN CARCASS on 15:14 - Aug 3 by londonlisa2001 |
I saw it in the Washington Post.
Hmm. |
Hmm indeed. Guess it goes to show how little impact the MLS has, even after a generation, that it's barely reported.
Very interesting that some of them are still happy to get into bed together, after their experiences to date. | |
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| Asset strip away, strip away....Left with a SWAN CARCASS on 16:37 - Aug 3 with 1758 views | Shaky |
| Asset strip away, strip away....Left with a SWAN CARCASS on 15:04 - Aug 3 by Uxbridge |
My position has never really changed on this. The ideal has always been the Trust retaining a stake in the club, ideally as large as possible.
Reality is different though. I don't know how I'll vote for any option which may mean we don't go down the legal route and attempt to force a sale because the option isn't in front of me. Once we get to that point, what we want is quite possibly out of everyone's hands apart from the judge. I think there's value in the Trust having a stake though. Always have. How much? Now there's a question. |
i am not going to pretend to be an expert in the mechanics of these things, but I would have thought if you are making an argument in the High Court that you have been ripped off and unfairly prejudiced by the company, it rather dilutes the strength of that case if you then say but we'd still like to hang on to some of those shares cos we'd really like to keep an eye on things. | |
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