| Just how intelligent are the Welsh ? 12:10 - Jul 28 with 6284 views | trampie |
Wasn't it said that the Romans noted how quick the Ancient Britons were too learn things ?, compared to others.
Didn't the Normans marry Welsh people of a similar standing in society ? and not others.
Couldn't a higher percentage of people read and write in Wales than anywhere else in the world at one time ? not all that long ago due the non-conformist religious revival.
Didn't eminent eugenicists note [when that type of thing was popular just up until the 2nd world war] that the Welsh belonged to a different a group than some other peoples in Blighty and that the Welsh belonged to the civilised group. [Post edited 28 Jul 2014 12:15]
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| Just how intelligent are the Welsh ? on 12:14 - Jul 28 with 5219 views | JJJack |
Dunno about any of the above but living in Bristol makes me think you're at least half right. Most of Britain's thickest people are Bristolians. Honestly, they're clueless. |  | | |
| Just how intelligent are the Welsh ? on 12:27 - Jul 28 with 5184 views | Brynmill_Jack |
I'm not sure about anything Eugenics related (a dubious and controversial subject) but it is very true than Methodism in particular played a huge role in literacy and education at a very important time in the history of this country .
Regarding the Normans they had subjugated the welsh but were still fearful of rebellion so as well as building imposing castles they chose to build alliances through marriage to the Welsh nobility.
I like your angle Trampie, it seems we Welsh are always trying to figure out why we are so different (particularly to the English). Terry Breverton is an author who seeks to do just that and in the Saints of Wales book he wrote he expounded the myth of the Welsh actually being the 13th tribe of Israel , or the lost tribe of Judah. Well I suppose the Welsh do have a reputation for being a bit tight with money and I do have a larger than average hooter lol [Post edited 28 Jul 2014 14:33]
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| Just how intelligent are the Welsh ? on 12:35 - Jul 28 with 5159 views | Jackistentialist |
"Didn't the Normans marry Welsh people of a similar standing in society ? and not others."
That's more to do with the openness of the old Welsh lords to marital unions as a solution to avoid bloodshed and the fact that many of the Normans had already usurped titles in the English lands for themselves. For example:
"Shrewdly venturing into the Lordship of Coity, Payn de Turberville discussed the acquisition of Coity Castle with the Welsh leader, Morgan Gam. Evidently, Morgan agreed to turn over his castle to Sir Payn on one condition: either the Norman had to fight Morgan for the lordship or he had to marry Sybil, Morgan's daughter. Symbolically (and wisely), Payn took the proffered sword in his left hand and clutched Sybil with his right. They married and Sir Payn de Turberville became Lord of Coity."
http://www.castlewales.com/coity.html
"eminent eugenicists"
Any and all are about as credible as flat Earth theorists. The "Science" of eugenics is grounded on pure fallacy and reification. |  | | |
| Just how intelligent are the Welsh ? on 13:11 - Jul 28 with 5112 views | trampie |
People breed racehorse don't they 'Jackistentialist' ?, why do they do that ?, why not race any old horse ?, why pay a fortune to have 'better breeding' ?, clearly they think they will have more chance of having a champion horse ?, doesn't the science back that up ?
Isn't it well recognised different groups of people have different traits ?, I personally think all people are equal, but also recognise there are different traits, it's an uncomfortable subject to discuss I admit. | |
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| Just how intelligent are the Welsh ? on 13:23 - Jul 28 with 5081 views | Liam |
I honestly don't think the Welsh are particularly intelligent. I've met lots of Scottish people and they seem very smart on the other hand. |  | | |
| Just how intelligent are the Welsh ? on 13:39 - Jul 28 with 5048 views | trampie |
| Just how intelligent are the Welsh ? on 12:27 - Jul 28 by Brynmill_Jack |
I'm not sure about anything Eugenics related (a dubious and controversial subject) but it is very true than Methodism in particular played a huge role in literacy and education at a very important time in the history of this country .
Regarding the Normans they had subjugated the welsh but were still fearful of rebellion so as well as building imposing castles they chose to build alliances through marriage to the Welsh nobility.
I like your angle Trampie, it seems we Welsh are always trying to figure out why we are so different (particularly to the English). Terry Breverton is an author who seeks to do just that and in the Saints of Wales book he wrote he expounded the myth of the Welsh actually being the 13th tribe of Israel , or the lost tribe of Judah. Well I suppose the Welsh do have a reputation for being a bit tight with money and I do have a larger than average hooter lol [Post edited 28 Jul 2014 14:33]
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''it seems we Welsh are always trying to figure out why we are so different (particularly the English)'' you say Brynmill, I see your point.
Yes whether we like it or not there are differences, less and less as the world becomes smaller and interbreeding has been going on for a couple of millennium [give or take], but the traits are still there.
One lot is all, son and heir, no women's rights, land owner only votes, right of conquest and they fight for power, land, money etc.
The other lot is all about equality and fairness, women's rights, vote by consensus and fight for their family, language, culture etc.
Nobody is any better or worse than anybody else but there are differences, even today Wales votes 'left' of England, Wales support other little countries as we feel an affinity towards them, England supports other colonialist powers as they seem to understand their problems.
In sporting terms we beat England by out thinking them, skill and ability, they beat us by over powering us, teamwork, will to win etc, its relevant in rugby for us and football for Scotland, every English team had Scottish wingers for 100 years as they just didn't produce that type of skilful player.
We produce better individuals [Gareth Edwards, John Charles, Gerald Davies, Gareth Bale, Barry John etc] they produce better teams.
We have been on tour to the South Pacific for two full tours [rugby] and have agreed to do another one although we will lose money on the tour, we want to extend the hand of friendship, although the games have been x rated out there on their patch, the other top countries with a strong Anglo-Saxon strain won't play them out there, because its all about money and avoiding injury I suppose. We have played the Basques in footie, Ryan Giggs only good game for Wales, the Basques are proud and a very difficult team to beat and only play about once a year but we beat them, you won't get colonial powers like England, France, Germany, Italy and Spain playing them, the Basques might well beat any of those teams as well, depending on where they are in the cycle of having good and average teams. [Post edited 28 Jul 2014 13:42]
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| Just how intelligent are the Welsh ? on 13:43 - Jul 28 with 5039 views | Brynmill_Jack |
| Just how intelligent are the Welsh ? on 12:27 - Jul 28 by Brynmill_Jack |
I'm not sure about anything Eugenics related (a dubious and controversial subject) but it is very true than Methodism in particular played a huge role in literacy and education at a very important time in the history of this country .
Regarding the Normans they had subjugated the welsh but were still fearful of rebellion so as well as building imposing castles they chose to build alliances through marriage to the Welsh nobility.
I like your angle Trampie, it seems we Welsh are always trying to figure out why we are so different (particularly to the English). Terry Breverton is an author who seeks to do just that and in the Saints of Wales book he wrote he expounded the myth of the Welsh actually being the 13th tribe of Israel , or the lost tribe of Judah. Well I suppose the Welsh do have a reputation for being a bit tight with money and I do have a larger than average hooter lol [Post edited 28 Jul 2014 14:33]
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Just had a little look on the internet about the (alleged) origins of Welsh/Scots/Irish and not only are we non Celts (that may upset some!) but our languages have non European influences/joint roots.
It is said that the Gaelic (Irish) and Gallic (Sots) languages have their roots in Berber and Phoenician languages and Welsh - well as we have to be different we chose the Hebrew (Israeli/Jewish) language. Boy are there going to be some p*ssed off people on the Palestine thread:-
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Brown
I put almost 0 stock in any real Berber/Briton connection, sounds a lot like the connection between Welsh and Hebrew some CIs like to go on about.
I just took this from the Racial Reality site... It has to do with the subject of Briton/North African/Hebrew linguistic connections.
http://racialreality.110mb.com/britons.html
Linguistics
"An interesting feature of Celtic languages is that in several characteristics they resemble some non-Indo-European languages. These characteristics include the absence of a present participle and the use instead of a verbal noun (found also in Egyptian and Berber), the frequent expression of agency by means of an impersonal passive construction instead of by a verbal subject in the nominative case (as in Egyptian, Berber, Basque, and some Caucasian and Eskimo languages), and the positioning of the verb at the beginning of a sentence (typical of Egyptian and Berber)."
(Columbia Encyclopedia, 2002)
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"JONES, BRYNMOR: Findings of Brynmor Jones on origin of populations of Great Britain and Ireland. Approaching the subject from the linguistic side, Rhys and Brynmor Jones find that the African origin–at least proximately–of the primitive population of Great Britain and Ireland is strongly suggested. It is here shown that the Celtic languages preserve in their syntax the Hamitic, and especially the Egyptian type. From The Welsh People pp. 616-664, where the subject is fully discussed, in an appendix by Professor J. Morris-Jones: 'The pre-Aryan idioms which still live in Welsh and Irish were derived from a language allied to Egyptian and the Berber tongues'."
(Mariboe, 1994)
Some Cambro-Britannic Hebraisms:
Welsh
1. Ochoren ballodddi hoc-dena
2. Yni all sy dda
3. Angheni a gowan
4. Ysgoefon a gwirion
5. Be heulo leuferfo
6. Nesa awyr peneu chwi
Hebrew
1. Acharei belothi hedenah
2. Ani El Saddai
3. Angini eu gouan
4. Isgoahvon u giwaeon
5. Be hilo leavorvo
6. Nesah auor panei cha
(Edwards, 1675)
A bit mind bending, innit! | |
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| Just how intelligent are the Welsh ? on 13:46 - Jul 28 with 5025 views | perchrockjack |
Biggest failing in the Welsh is sentimentality |  |
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| Just how intelligent are the Welsh ? on 13:47 - Jul 28 with 5022 views | Brynmill_Jack |
| Just how intelligent are the Welsh ? on 13:46 - Jul 28 by perchrockjack |
Biggest failing in the Welsh is sentimentality |
Shalom Perchie. Must be pining for the Negev! | |
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| Just how intelligent are the Welsh ? on 13:48 - Jul 28 with 5022 views | trampie |
Lots of people in the field think the Welsh originated from Iberia, some say central Europe, but most describe them as Celtic with a Celtic tongue. | |
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| Just how intelligent are the Welsh ? on 13:54 - Jul 28 with 5007 views | Brynmill_Jack |
| Just how intelligent are the Welsh ? on 13:48 - Jul 28 by trampie |
Lots of people in the field think the Welsh originated from Iberia, some say central Europe, but most describe them as Celtic with a Celtic tongue. |
The Celtic thing could just be cultural, ie we adopted a more dominant culture due to invasion for example but there's barely any genetic connection. There is talk that the original ancient Britons were in fact pioneering Basques/Catalonians pushing North as the ice sheet retreated.
The language thing I do find really fascinating because Welsh and the other 2 have no relation at all to the other. Gaelic and Gallic are very similar and when spoken sound like something from Eastern Europe whilst Welsh and Hebrew have that very distinctive ccchhh sound in both. | |
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| Just how intelligent are the Welsh ? on 13:59 - Jul 28 with 4991 views | skippyjack |
Intelligence is a word used to degrade one person from another.. intelligence is spotting this very fact.. it's that simple. |  |
| The awkward moment when a Welsh Club become the Champions of England.. shh
The Swansea Way.. To upset the odds. | | Poll: | Best Swans Player |
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| Just how intelligent are the Welsh ? on 14:01 - Jul 28 with 4981 views | Liam |
| Just how intelligent are the Welsh ? on 13:54 - Jul 28 by Brynmill_Jack |
The Celtic thing could just be cultural, ie we adopted a more dominant culture due to invasion for example but there's barely any genetic connection. There is talk that the original ancient Britons were in fact pioneering Basques/Catalonians pushing North as the ice sheet retreated.
The language thing I do find really fascinating because Welsh and the other 2 have no relation at all to the other. Gaelic and Gallic are very similar and when spoken sound like something from Eastern Europe whilst Welsh and Hebrew have that very distinctive ccchhh sound in both. |
I think the real issue here is that the Welsh feel insecure about their identity and are grasping at other more established cultural identities. | | | |
| Just how intelligent are the Welsh ? on 14:04 - Jul 28 with 4970 views | Brynmill_Jack |
| Just how intelligent are the Welsh ? on 13:59 - Jul 28 by skippyjack |
Intelligence is a word used to degrade one person from another.. intelligence is spotting this very fact.. it's that simple. |
To be fair intelligence is only one way of putting it. Aptitude, ability to learn different skills / languages isn't a welsh only thing, it happens all over the world.
Besides there are many different kinds of intelligence, academia is one , the ability to learn a craft or trade another, Art, Music, Literature etc etc others and all are needed to ensure a cohesive and cultural society. | |
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| Just how intelligent are the Welsh ? on 14:06 - Jul 28 with 4960 views | trampie |
| Just how intelligent are the Welsh ? on 13:54 - Jul 28 by Brynmill_Jack |
The Celtic thing could just be cultural, ie we adopted a more dominant culture due to invasion for example but there's barely any genetic connection. There is talk that the original ancient Britons were in fact pioneering Basques/Catalonians pushing North as the ice sheet retreated.
The language thing I do find really fascinating because Welsh and the other 2 have no relation at all to the other. Gaelic and Gallic are very similar and when spoken sound like something from Eastern Europe whilst Welsh and Hebrew have that very distinctive ccchhh sound in both. |
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/2076470.stm
The above ''English and Welsh are races apart'' article based on findings of Dr Mark Thomas of the Centre for Genetic Anthropology at UCL is interesting.
Offa's Dyke proved a greater barrier to Anglo Saxon DNA than the North Sea .
English genes similar to the part of the continent where the Anglo Saxons came from but are different to Welsh genes.
And the findings reinforced the idea that the Welsh were the true indigenous Britons. | |
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| Just how intelligent are the Welsh ? on 14:09 - Jul 28 with 4953 views | Brynmill_Jack |
| Just how intelligent are the Welsh ? on 14:01 - Jul 28 by Liam |
I think the real issue here is that the Welsh feel insecure about their identity and are grasping at other more established cultural identities. |
I'm not so sure about the notion of being insecure over our identity, maybe people have insecurity over the origins of the Welsh people and culture but that anxiety was only sparked by eugenic theorists in the 1800's.
Besides it's a natural thing for human beings to wonder over their origins, just watch who do you think you are for instance. | |
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| Just how intelligent are the Welsh ? on 14:14 - Jul 28 with 4942 views | dgt73 |
| Just how intelligent are the Welsh ? on 13:11 - Jul 28 by trampie |
People breed racehorse don't they 'Jackistentialist' ?, why do they do that ?, why not race any old horse ?, why pay a fortune to have 'better breeding' ?, clearly they think they will have more chance of having a champion horse ?, doesn't the science back that up ?
Isn't it well recognised different groups of people have different traits ?, I personally think all people are equal, but also recognise there are different traits, it's an uncomfortable subject to discuss I admit. |
Its a uncomfortable subject for many because many people Want to portray all people/ races as equal, when clearly they are not. The northern European race faced different evolutionary pressures from the other races and that is why they have been responsible for most inventions/discoveries. Give it a minute and someone will be along to call me a racist.  |  |
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| Just how intelligent are the Welsh ? on 14:15 - Jul 28 with 4935 views | Liam |
| Just how intelligent are the Welsh ? on 14:09 - Jul 28 by Brynmill_Jack |
I'm not so sure about the notion of being insecure over our identity, maybe people have insecurity over the origins of the Welsh people and culture but that anxiety was only sparked by eugenic theorists in the 1800's.
Besides it's a natural thing for human beings to wonder over their origins, just watch who do you think you are for instance. |
I agree to a certain extent that there is a South Wales "Welsh" phenotype (physical look) with the dark curly hair and brown eyes/ dark complexion but this is quite rare. This is said to be from the Silurii tribe that settled here before the Romans. The Silurii came from North Spain - Basque country - hence the North African genetic differences of the Levantic people of Spain compared to the anglo saxons among some Welsh people.
But the people of Wales are so diluted and mixed now to say that any heritage over 200 years old has been passed down is going too far. We should just be happy with who we are. You never see any English trying to prove their identity. The next thing we'll see is someone trying to prove the Lewis and Levy surnames are linked. | | | |
| Just how intelligent are the Welsh ? on 14:16 - Jul 28 with 4934 views | controversial_jack |
| Just how intelligent are the Welsh ? on 14:06 - Jul 28 by trampie |
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/2076470.stm
The above ''English and Welsh are races apart'' article based on findings of Dr Mark Thomas of the Centre for Genetic Anthropology at UCL is interesting.
Offa's Dyke proved a greater barrier to Anglo Saxon DNA than the North Sea .
English genes similar to the part of the continent where the Anglo Saxons came from but are different to Welsh genes.
And the findings reinforced the idea that the Welsh were the true indigenous Britons. |
The English and Welsh are not separate races and there is no such thing as English or Welsh genes | | | |
| Just how intelligent are the Welsh ? on 14:32 - Jul 28 with 4879 views | Brynmill_Jack |
| Just how intelligent are the Welsh ? on 14:16 - Jul 28 by controversial_jack |
The English and Welsh are not separate races and there is no such thing as English or Welsh genes |
What Trampie is saying is in line with the belief that the Anglo Saxons invaded England and colonized it en masse. Research now indicates that genetically English and Welsh people are mostly the same. This points to the Anglo Saxons (like their successors the Normans) just being a ruling elite in charge of a largely indigenous people rather them breeding out the aborigines or in fact driving them West. The Welsh language was spoken throughout what we call England probably for a few centuries in some places after the Saxon invasion and in some places (Welsh Marches, Cumbria) there are still very old words and phrases used. | |
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| Just how intelligent are the Welsh ? on 14:34 - Jul 28 with 4873 views | trampie |
| Just how intelligent are the Welsh ? on 14:27 - Jul 28 by dgt73 |
Welsh and British and proud no id crisis for me. |
No identity crisis for me either, but is there an identity crisis in the occupied territories ? [the occupied territories being England, as it all belongs to Wales really ]
Not amongst the people that regard themselves as Celts perhaps [Celtic names, a great grandparent or something from Celtic lands] but the others ?, who knows. | |
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| Just how intelligent are the Welsh ? on 14:40 - Jul 28 with 4862 views | Brynmill_Jack |
| Just how intelligent are the Welsh ? on 13:39 - Jul 28 by trampie |
''it seems we Welsh are always trying to figure out why we are so different (particularly the English)'' you say Brynmill, I see your point.
Yes whether we like it or not there are differences, less and less as the world becomes smaller and interbreeding has been going on for a couple of millennium [give or take], but the traits are still there.
One lot is all, son and heir, no women's rights, land owner only votes, right of conquest and they fight for power, land, money etc.
The other lot is all about equality and fairness, women's rights, vote by consensus and fight for their family, language, culture etc.
Nobody is any better or worse than anybody else but there are differences, even today Wales votes 'left' of England, Wales support other little countries as we feel an affinity towards them, England supports other colonialist powers as they seem to understand their problems.
In sporting terms we beat England by out thinking them, skill and ability, they beat us by over powering us, teamwork, will to win etc, its relevant in rugby for us and football for Scotland, every English team had Scottish wingers for 100 years as they just didn't produce that type of skilful player.
We produce better individuals [Gareth Edwards, John Charles, Gerald Davies, Gareth Bale, Barry John etc] they produce better teams.
We have been on tour to the South Pacific for two full tours [rugby] and have agreed to do another one although we will lose money on the tour, we want to extend the hand of friendship, although the games have been x rated out there on their patch, the other top countries with a strong Anglo-Saxon strain won't play them out there, because its all about money and avoiding injury I suppose. We have played the Basques in footie, Ryan Giggs only good game for Wales, the Basques are proud and a very difficult team to beat and only play about once a year but we beat them, you won't get colonial powers like England, France, Germany, Italy and Spain playing them, the Basques might well beat any of those teams as well, depending on where they are in the cycle of having good and average teams. [Post edited 28 Jul 2014 13:42]
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Just picked up on this post Trampie, check out King Hywel Dda (I think he was a King of dyfed ) and the laws he brought out. Equality for women (especially after divorce) and a whole raft of restorative justice initiatives. Extremely civilized and truly ground breaking in today's world, let alone his time (880-950 AD)! | |
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| Just how intelligent are the Welsh ? on 14:44 - Jul 28 with 4854 views | Jackistentialist |
| Just how intelligent are the Welsh ? on 13:11 - Jul 28 by trampie |
People breed racehorse don't they 'Jackistentialist' ?, why do they do that ?, why not race any old horse ?, why pay a fortune to have 'better breeding' ?, clearly they think they will have more chance of having a champion horse ?, doesn't the science back that up ?
Isn't it well recognised different groups of people have different traits ?, I personally think all people are equal, but also recognise there are different traits, it's an uncomfortable subject to discuss I admit. |
Yes they do that, however those actions are based on the false assumption that genetic inheritance is an absolute value... Just because people "believe" that the progeny of Red Rum's Cum will excel at running doesn't mean that they necessarily will... If anything, genetic inheritance is found secondary to genetic mutations which occur on an individual basis... It's why geniuses are born to people who are intellectually average and intellectually average people are born to geniuses (or to provide a more relevant example, why Michael Laudrup's sons are nowhere near as accomplished footballers).
All historical European nationalisms aren't as old as their mythologies claim and the genetic differences, if any between them are minute. The vast majority of differences are derived from culture, which is the result of a mix of economic/geographical situations and the anarchical chance of history. [Post edited 28 Jul 2014 14:44]
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