| Crikey on 23:13 - Jun 5 with 1738 views | Uxbridge |
| Crikey on 22:20 - Jun 5 by JackoBoostardo |
Are you even reading the posts?
The post refers to my earlier comments regarding doing good things ffs. |
I'm really trying to but all your posts seem to be saying religious people are incapable of acting without first thinking about what some bloke on a cloud thinks. It's a bit patronising. |  |
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| Crikey on 23:24 - Jun 5 with 1731 views | JackoBoostardo |
| Crikey on 23:13 - Jun 5 by Uxbridge |
I'm really trying to but all your posts seem to be saying religious people are incapable of acting without first thinking about what some bloke on a cloud thinks. It's a bit patronising. |
seem to be or actually stating that?
I think you are reading the posts incorrectly - you're taking things out of context or misunderstanding.
Patronising? Nope. Certainly not the intention at least - but if the point is to be made then why not make it a detailed response?
Go back to Darrans post with a picture of the Dalai Lama and the quote contained in the image. There isn't anyone who doesn't appreciate kindness or compassion? My point responds to this by explaining that it's dependent on the motives of the person doing good.
Not once did I claim ALL religious people are dubiously doing good work. Instead I questioned the basis of religion (and the promises entailed within) being a reward system for doing good, instead of being good because of your humanity.
And let's consider your comments. For hundreds of years the non-religious and atheists have been criticised, ostricised, punished and pretty much shit on at every opportunity. It is frequently claimed being religious makes people good? And you claim I'm being patronising? |  |
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| Crikey on 08:43 - Jun 6 with 1680 views | Drizzle |
Wow. Someones getting very worked up over this. Paragraph after paragraph of apologist nonsense. I've never understood why people who don't have faith were so angered by people who do. Maybe its time that you displayed some of the motiveless good nature you are alluding to. |  | | |
| Crikey on 08:54 - Jun 6 with 1672 views | Lohengrin |
| Crikey on 08:43 - Jun 6 by Drizzle |
Wow. Someones getting very worked up over this. Paragraph after paragraph of apologist nonsense. I've never understood why people who don't have faith were so angered by people who do. Maybe its time that you displayed some of the motiveless good nature you are alluding to. |
Very well put. It's almost as if there's a voice in the back of their mind whispering "you may be wrong?"
They have to shout louder to try and drown it out.  |  |
| An idea isn't responsible for those who believe in it. |
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| Crikey on 09:09 - Jun 6 with 1660 views | JackoBoostardo |
| Crikey on 08:43 - Jun 6 by Drizzle |
Wow. Someones getting very worked up over this. Paragraph after paragraph of apologist nonsense. I've never understood why people who don't have faith were so angered by people who do. Maybe its time that you displayed some of the motiveless good nature you are alluding to. |
Who's getting worked up? FFS - Do you always read too much into everything?
Does a response have to be an attack against you? [Post edited 6 Jun 2014 9:13]
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| Crikey on 09:25 - Jun 6 with 1650 views | Drizzle |
| Crikey on 09:09 - Jun 6 by JackoBoostardo |
Who's getting worked up? FFS - Do you always read too much into everything?
Does a response have to be an attack against you? [Post edited 6 Jun 2014 9:13]
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LOL. You say who's getting worked up, then type FFS. Hee hee. | | | |
| Crikey on 09:26 - Jun 6 with 1647 views | Uxbridge |
| Crikey on 09:09 - Jun 6 by JackoBoostardo |
Who's getting worked up? FFS - Do you always read too much into everything?
Does a response have to be an attack against you? [Post edited 6 Jun 2014 9:13]
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Quite.
Just like saying Dawkins' book was rather tedious isn't an attack on atheism. Especially when the person criticising Dawkins' book agrees with him anyway. | |
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| Crikey on 09:41 - Jun 6 with 1640 views | JackoBoostardo |
| Crikey on 09:25 - Jun 6 by Drizzle |
LOL. You say who's getting worked up, then type FFS. Hee hee. |
Do you converse with people often?
I know it's difficult to portray emotion on an internet forum, but geez you're paranoid! | |
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| Crikey on 10:12 - Jun 6 with 1628 views | Catullus |
I am almost entirely with Jackboostardo on this. We allowed our son to go to Sunday school, but we stopped him after two weeks because it was clear the indoctrination had started when he said, and it's a direct quote "People who don't believe in God, or say God doesn't exist, are bad people"
Now as his parents, non church going, non religious people, we asked him if we were bad people and he really struggled with it.
When he's old enough to understand things better, he can decide for himself. But right now he's not going anywhere near any church of any denomination.
However, he's 5 and does believe in Santa. And yes, we do lie to him about it all the time. But then, Santa does exist and every house that buys Christmas presents for kids has one, possibly two.
Santa as a premise is not really bad. Teaching your kids that if they are naughty they will get nothing, but if they are good they will be rewarded is just as much a life lesson as anything.
If it teaches them to obey the rules, to be good, what is wrong in that? And when the time comes the no longer believe, you/we/us can and should explain to them all about Santa and why the lie is told. it's not just about a bit of fun, it has serious undercurrents.
Children who grow up without boundaries, without rules or discipline, some of those kids will be a societal problem in the future. If Santa is a tool to teach them (ok indoctrinate them) into behaving properly, is that wrong? |  |
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| Crikey on 10:20 - Jun 6 with 1624 views | JackoBoostardo |
| Crikey on 10:12 - Jun 6 by Catullus |
I am almost entirely with Jackboostardo on this. We allowed our son to go to Sunday school, but we stopped him after two weeks because it was clear the indoctrination had started when he said, and it's a direct quote "People who don't believe in God, or say God doesn't exist, are bad people"
Now as his parents, non church going, non religious people, we asked him if we were bad people and he really struggled with it.
When he's old enough to understand things better, he can decide for himself. But right now he's not going anywhere near any church of any denomination.
However, he's 5 and does believe in Santa. And yes, we do lie to him about it all the time. But then, Santa does exist and every house that buys Christmas presents for kids has one, possibly two.
Santa as a premise is not really bad. Teaching your kids that if they are naughty they will get nothing, but if they are good they will be rewarded is just as much a life lesson as anything.
If it teaches them to obey the rules, to be good, what is wrong in that? And when the time comes the no longer believe, you/we/us can and should explain to them all about Santa and why the lie is told. it's not just about a bit of fun, it has serious undercurrents.
Children who grow up without boundaries, without rules or discipline, some of those kids will be a societal problem in the future. If Santa is a tool to teach them (ok indoctrinate them) into behaving properly, is that wrong? |
But as a tool to make children behave - it is still in essence a lie.
You are asking your children not to lie - by lying to them.
This is what Richard Dawkins is saying.
You can still make Christmas an annual reward (like a bonus if you wish) to a child who has been good all year. This is a more accurate way surely for setting them up for later life. [Post edited 6 Jun 2014 10:26]
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| Crikey on 10:31 - Jun 6 with 1617 views | Uxbridge |
| Crikey on 10:20 - Jun 6 by JackoBoostardo |
But as a tool to make children behave - it is still in essence a lie.
You are asking your children not to lie - by lying to them.
This is what Richard Dawkins is saying.
You can still make Christmas an annual reward (like a bonus if you wish) to a child who has been good all year. This is a more accurate way surely for setting them up for later life. [Post edited 6 Jun 2014 10:26]
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TV dramas. Soaps. Science fiction. Fiction books. All lies then.
What so wrong with letting kids believe in something that makes them happy. They've got the rest of their lives to be cynical.
Nothing wrong with a bit of escapism for adults either. I choose to read a good book. Some people choose to believe in a different bloke with a white beard. It's being told what to think that will get up people's noses. | |
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| Crikey on 10:36 - Jun 6 with 1609 views | JackSomething |
I'm not a fan of organised religion at all, but telling my infant son that Santa doesn't exist? F*ck that.
Not quite sure how the two things became so intertwined in this thread, but hey ho. |  |
| You know, Hobbes, some days even my lucky rocket ship underpants don't help. |
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| Crikey on 10:44 - Jun 6 with 1600 views | Catullus |
| Crikey on 10:20 - Jun 6 by JackoBoostardo |
But as a tool to make children behave - it is still in essence a lie.
You are asking your children not to lie - by lying to them.
This is what Richard Dawkins is saying.
You can still make Christmas an annual reward (like a bonus if you wish) to a child who has been good all year. This is a more accurate way surely for setting them up for later life. [Post edited 6 Jun 2014 10:26]
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The only lie really is that a man in a red suit with a big white beard comes and leaves presents.
We tell him Santa and his elves see and hear everything and if he's been good enough he'll get presents.
Well in our house for Santa read Dad, for his elves read Mum, other parents and all the staff at his school!!
We all lie to our kids all the time about things and for good reason. Some things they just don't need to know, either because they are really bad things that don't affect them and/or because they just wouldn't undertstand.
I think it's a line from the film Miracle on 34th street, "what is better, a lie that draws a smile, or a truth that draws a tear?"
When it comes to my son, at his young age, happiness is everything. And one day he'll be old enough to understand, one day he will be cynical, but I will keep those days away as long as I can. Let kids enjoy their lives, let them daydream and believe in Santa, the tooth fairy and the Easter bunny.
The real hard part for me is telling him Saint Nicholas and the Easter bunny exist because of the religious implications. But when I see the smile on his face Christmas morning, when he looks under his pillow and finds a pound and when he gets an Easter egg, it's a price worth paying. | |
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| Crikey on 10:46 - Jun 6 with 1600 views | JackoBoostardo |
| Crikey on 10:31 - Jun 6 by Uxbridge |
TV dramas. Soaps. Science fiction. Fiction books. All lies then.
What so wrong with letting kids believe in something that makes them happy. They've got the rest of their lives to be cynical.
Nothing wrong with a bit of escapism for adults either. I choose to read a good book. Some people choose to believe in a different bloke with a white beard. It's being told what to think that will get up people's noses. |
Kids can still be happy without having to be told Santa will bring them toys if they're good. | |
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| Crikey on 10:52 - Jun 6 with 1595 views | Catullus |
| Crikey on 10:46 - Jun 6 by JackoBoostardo |
Kids can still be happy without having to be told Santa will bring them toys if they're good. |
Do you have children? | |
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| Crikey on 11:06 - Jun 6 with 1570 views | JackoBoostardo |
| Crikey on 10:44 - Jun 6 by Catullus |
The only lie really is that a man in a red suit with a big white beard comes and leaves presents.
We tell him Santa and his elves see and hear everything and if he's been good enough he'll get presents.
Well in our house for Santa read Dad, for his elves read Mum, other parents and all the staff at his school!!
We all lie to our kids all the time about things and for good reason. Some things they just don't need to know, either because they are really bad things that don't affect them and/or because they just wouldn't undertstand.
I think it's a line from the film Miracle on 34th street, "what is better, a lie that draws a smile, or a truth that draws a tear?"
When it comes to my son, at his young age, happiness is everything. And one day he'll be old enough to understand, one day he will be cynical, but I will keep those days away as long as I can. Let kids enjoy their lives, let them daydream and believe in Santa, the tooth fairy and the Easter bunny.
The real hard part for me is telling him Saint Nicholas and the Easter bunny exist because of the religious implications. But when I see the smile on his face Christmas morning, when he looks under his pillow and finds a pound and when he gets an Easter egg, it's a price worth paying. |
So how have you decided which truths are more beneficial to your little one(s)?
Kids are more than capable to enjoying life without there being a need for Santa.
And yes, I have a 3 year old son - the most important thing in my life. I do everything I can to ensure he is happy, and he has presents much like all the other kids he knows during christmas. He's still happy. Haven't really mentioned anything about Santa to him before to make him happy - yet he is.
He plays, interacts and talks away - and he enjoys stories and games. He is to all intents and purposes an everyday three year old boy - and all without having to bring Santa into the equation. | |
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| Crikey on 11:15 - Jun 6 with 1565 views | Uxbridge |
| Crikey on 10:46 - Jun 6 by JackoBoostardo |
Kids can still be happy without having to be told Santa will bring them toys if they're good. |
What about the tooth fairy? Easter bunny? Where will this cull of fictional characters end? | |
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| Crikey on 11:22 - Jun 6 with 1559 views | Neath_Jack |
| Crikey on 11:06 - Jun 6 by JackoBoostardo |
So how have you decided which truths are more beneficial to your little one(s)?
Kids are more than capable to enjoying life without there being a need for Santa.
And yes, I have a 3 year old son - the most important thing in my life. I do everything I can to ensure he is happy, and he has presents much like all the other kids he knows during christmas. He's still happy. Haven't really mentioned anything about Santa to him before to make him happy - yet he is.
He plays, interacts and talks away - and he enjoys stories and games. He is to all intents and purposes an everyday three year old boy - and all without having to bring Santa into the equation. |
His mates are going to love him in a few years when he's telling his fellow 5 year old class mates that Santa doesn't exist, no tooth fairy or easter bunny. How terrible that would be. |  |
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| Crikey on 11:27 - Jun 6 with 1556 views | Catullus |
| Crikey on 11:06 - Jun 6 by JackoBoostardo |
So how have you decided which truths are more beneficial to your little one(s)?
Kids are more than capable to enjoying life without there being a need for Santa.
And yes, I have a 3 year old son - the most important thing in my life. I do everything I can to ensure he is happy, and he has presents much like all the other kids he knows during christmas. He's still happy. Haven't really mentioned anything about Santa to him before to make him happy - yet he is.
He plays, interacts and talks away - and he enjoys stories and games. He is to all intents and purposes an everyday three year old boy - and all without having to bring Santa into the equation. |
We share that in common, my son is the most important part of my life too.
But pick up a book, turn on tv or listen to other kids at that time of year and the vast majority believe in Santa, a bit of escapism, a bit of fun is all it is,
As Uxbridge says.
Has your son started nursery yet? because when he starts school, and Christmas comes, then you'll see a change.
There was one child in my sons nursery who was told Santa didn't exist, she insisted on telling the others but none believed her. Our son asked questions but he was happy with what we told him.
Because like I said, every house has a Santa and Elves, it's not quite the Santa we tell our kids, but all of us play that role.
Your son is perfectly happy now, and I hope he stays that way. But would it really do any harm. Most of us were brought up to believe in Santa, did it hurt us? | |
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| Crikey on 12:23 - Jun 6 with 1540 views | JackoBoostardo |
| Crikey on 11:15 - Jun 6 by Uxbridge |
What about the tooth fairy? Easter bunny? Where will this cull of fictional characters end? |
It isn't a cull of fictional characters. As a child it's obviously important to utilise the imagination whenever possible, as this serves to benefit the child in later life (improves cognitive thought and logic creativity).
And the tooth fairy has nothing to do with controlling a childs behaviour.
The Easter Bunny is a tale originating from Germany by Lutherans - a branch of Christianity. The Easter Bunny was a judge over whether kids have been good or bad. Easter eggs can be given without the Lutheran stories behind it.
And just to confirm - it was Richard Dawkins who made the comments that Santa should not be taught to kids (I say this as people appear very defensive of this instead of communicative).
In terms of what I believe, it is important to engage children and their imaginations - afterall, you are only a kid once. However, I believe a healthy mix of imagination with realism. I don't believe in pushing religion on to children until they are old enough to make their own informed decisions on whether this is a belief they wish to pursue. Similarly, I don't believe in pushing stories on to children that revolve around religion.... Religion afterall is a life choice that will linger for a long time.
Religion in my eyes is harmful to a child whereas using the imagination/realism balance is good and natural - a stepping stone for later life. The ability to be a good person should come naturally, and not because there is an ultimate reward for doing so. Also, as I have already covered, religion does not make a person good (this is quite the opposite in many cases).
I also try and teach my son about the world around him. Everything at this age is full of wonder, and he is learning more and more each day. My ultimate goal is to ensure he is well rounded and sensible, able to use his brain fully when searching for answers (which can be found without having to resort to a religion by the way), and always challenge problems he may encounter. The basis of being a good person doesn't require any religion whatsoever.
For debating this - I appear to be tarred by a select group of people here as someone who is somehow refusing my child a childhood? This is not only insulting and ridiculous, but clearly these people have not read the posts properly, or understood that this whole thread relates to the original story relating to Richard Dawkins quotes (which are still taken greatly out of context).
For debating this I am considered arrogant or somewhat condescending? Despite a forum existing for the purposes of communicating and sharing ideas and comments with others. A lot of people tend to jump to conclusions all to easily here.
Well I hope that's cleared something up as writing long posts via a mobile sucks ass. | |
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| Crikey on 12:31 - Jun 6 with 1533 views | JackSomething |
What's Santa got to do with religion?
I thought Trey Parker and Matt Stone dealt with it pretty well all the way back in 1992 myself. | |
| You know, Hobbes, some days even my lucky rocket ship underpants don't help. |
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| Crikey on 12:39 - Jun 6 with 1525 views | JackoBoostardo |
| Crikey on 12:31 - Jun 6 by JackSomething |
What's Santa got to do with religion?
I thought Trey Parker and Matt Stone dealt with it pretty well all the way back in 1992 myself. |
Santa has a lot to do with Religion - hence the name St Nicholas.
St doesn't mean street by the way.
And you never think "Why have presents during a Christian event?". | |
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| Crikey on 13:13 - Jun 6 with 1509 views | Uxbridge |
| Crikey on 12:23 - Jun 6 by JackoBoostardo |
It isn't a cull of fictional characters. As a child it's obviously important to utilise the imagination whenever possible, as this serves to benefit the child in later life (improves cognitive thought and logic creativity).
And the tooth fairy has nothing to do with controlling a childs behaviour.
The Easter Bunny is a tale originating from Germany by Lutherans - a branch of Christianity. The Easter Bunny was a judge over whether kids have been good or bad. Easter eggs can be given without the Lutheran stories behind it.
And just to confirm - it was Richard Dawkins who made the comments that Santa should not be taught to kids (I say this as people appear very defensive of this instead of communicative).
In terms of what I believe, it is important to engage children and their imaginations - afterall, you are only a kid once. However, I believe a healthy mix of imagination with realism. I don't believe in pushing religion on to children until they are old enough to make their own informed decisions on whether this is a belief they wish to pursue. Similarly, I don't believe in pushing stories on to children that revolve around religion.... Religion afterall is a life choice that will linger for a long time.
Religion in my eyes is harmful to a child whereas using the imagination/realism balance is good and natural - a stepping stone for later life. The ability to be a good person should come naturally, and not because there is an ultimate reward for doing so. Also, as I have already covered, religion does not make a person good (this is quite the opposite in many cases).
I also try and teach my son about the world around him. Everything at this age is full of wonder, and he is learning more and more each day. My ultimate goal is to ensure he is well rounded and sensible, able to use his brain fully when searching for answers (which can be found without having to resort to a religion by the way), and always challenge problems he may encounter. The basis of being a good person doesn't require any religion whatsoever.
For debating this - I appear to be tarred by a select group of people here as someone who is somehow refusing my child a childhood? This is not only insulting and ridiculous, but clearly these people have not read the posts properly, or understood that this whole thread relates to the original story relating to Richard Dawkins quotes (which are still taken greatly out of context).
For debating this I am considered arrogant or somewhat condescending? Despite a forum existing for the purposes of communicating and sharing ideas and comments with others. A lot of people tend to jump to conclusions all to easily here.
Well I hope that's cleared something up as writing long posts via a mobile sucks ass. |
Good lord. | |
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| Crikey on 13:15 - Jun 6 with 1509 views | JackSomething |
| Crikey on 12:39 - Jun 6 by JackoBoostardo |
Santa has a lot to do with Religion - hence the name St Nicholas.
St doesn't mean street by the way.
And you never think "Why have presents during a Christian event?". |
It doesn't have to have anything to do with Christianity though. I've heard/read plenty of Christians complaining that Santa and presents take away from what they consider to be the real meaning of Christmas.
Like I said, I'm an atheist, just not a militant one. Santa is going to play a part in my boy's childhood, but religion won't.
Being so sternly anti-religion puts you in just as unappealing a position as a religious fundamentalist, both clinging to beliefs and unwilling to bend.
Just edited to add that of course you're free to raise your own child how you see fit and I'm not criticising it, just find it strange you feel that anyone else who is not religious should also deny their child a belief in Santa Claus. [Post edited 6 Jun 2014 13:32]
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| You know, Hobbes, some days even my lucky rocket ship underpants don't help. |
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| Crikey on 14:20 - Jun 6 with 1491 views | JackoBoostardo |
| Crikey on 13:15 - Jun 6 by JackSomething |
It doesn't have to have anything to do with Christianity though. I've heard/read plenty of Christians complaining that Santa and presents take away from what they consider to be the real meaning of Christmas.
Like I said, I'm an atheist, just not a militant one. Santa is going to play a part in my boy's childhood, but religion won't.
Being so sternly anti-religion puts you in just as unappealing a position as a religious fundamentalist, both clinging to beliefs and unwilling to bend.
Just edited to add that of course you're free to raise your own child how you see fit and I'm not criticising it, just find it strange you feel that anyone else who is not religious should also deny their child a belief in Santa Claus. [Post edited 6 Jun 2014 13:32]
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Sorry to have to correct you again, but St Nicholas of Myra was a Christian Bishop from the 4th Century (the remains of whom are allegedly buried in Italy. The customer of giving gifts at Christmas was propogated by Martin Luther ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther) as a means of focusing on an interest in the Children of Christ.
Prior to its Christianization, there was indeed a Germanic pagan midwinter event known as Yule. During this period, it was said supernatural events would occur such as a ghostly show in the sky. The person responsible for these 'shows' or 'gifts' would be commonly referred to by the Old Norse name Jólnir, which means Yule Figure, or Langbarðr, meaning "long-beard" . However, with the christianization of Germany, brought with it many adaptions to the older tales and stories that resulted in the above characters being replaced with St Nicholas.
So what started of as a pagan ritual or tradition was hijacked by Christianity.
This is the earliest known recorded evidence to explain the origins of Christmas.
And another clue to give it away would be to break up the word Christ and Mas.
Again I am assumed to be a militant atheist. Please define a militant atheist. if you mean someone who dislikes the basis and foundations of religion, and instead prefers a world where the religious are not in control then yes - I guess I am. Afterall, you fail to appreciate the law bringers in every office in the UK, USA etc, are all religious (indeed, in many cases - especially the US, it is a requirement to believe in god). If you then consider the fact that these same people have control over our education, rights and everyday lives. That would make me a concerned Aheist too. Especially when you consider the progress humanity is being prevented from pursuing - such as Stem Cell research for instance. I believe in a world where religion and politics should be completely separate - yet in the UK the House Of Lords has the final say over what we do.... have you seen how many 'lords' are bishops and people of religion?
So if the above makes me a militant atheist then so be it! Don't make out it's a bad thing - or that I'm some kind of terrorist. Your insinuations are somewhat ridiculous.
Another long post by phone - great! | |
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