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On Saturday went to the new Spuds ground - treat for my lads who have a special birthday, booked the Stratus lounge with drinks, food and great seats. Have to say I was totally blown away with the stadium it is fantastic and now I understand why the budget and build time went pear shape. Only issue for me is the surrounding area which without being disrespectful is not great.
In my view it is well worth a trip just to see a totally brilliant stadium.
No, it you that doesn't understand. Jewish community groups have made it explicitly clear they don't like the word being used by Spurs fans, and yet it still continues.
Some Jewish groups, who aren't necssarily football fans have objected, just as some LGBT(ahem)Q groups probably objected when some Gays started calling themselves "Queer".
But my Spurs mate tells me that a while back, the club sent out a questionnaire to all their 100k+ Members and ST Holders etc, asking them what they thought about it. The clear majority voted to keep it, meaning that it's not just a bunch of pissed-up 50 y.o.s marching up the Seven Sisters Road.
And for myself, it is many years since I started work in The City, where I became pally with one of the few football fans in my office. He was so Jewish he made Woody Allen look and sound like a Viking, and he was also a Spurs fan. And it took me, a sheltered country boy, a while before I stopped doing a double-take when he routinely referred to "going to see the Yids" at the weekend.
The real problem lies with the anti-Semitic supporters of other clubs. I imagine Spurs fans will drop their celebratory "Yid Army" chants when the others drop their Holocaust shit, but not before.
Some Jewish groups, who aren't necssarily football fans have objected, just as some LGBT(ahem)Q groups probably objected when some Gays started calling themselves "Queer".
But my Spurs mate tells me that a while back, the club sent out a questionnaire to all their 100k+ Members and ST Holders etc, asking them what they thought about it. The clear majority voted to keep it, meaning that it's not just a bunch of pissed-up 50 y.o.s marching up the Seven Sisters Road.
And for myself, it is many years since I started work in The City, where I became pally with one of the few football fans in my office. He was so Jewish he made Woody Allen look and sound like a Viking, and he was also a Spurs fan. And it took me, a sheltered country boy, a while before I stopped doing a double-take when he routinely referred to "going to see the Yids" at the weekend.
The real problem lies with the anti-Semitic supporters of other clubs. I imagine Spurs fans will drop their celebratory "Yid Army" chants when the others drop their Holocaust shit, but not before.
[Post edited 8 Feb 2022 16:45]
What about Jewish fans of other clubs,or Jewish people who aren’t fans of any club?Are they not allowed to be upset that fans of 1 club are using it as a badge of honour,which some people treat as an insult to be thrown about?
What about Jewish fans of other clubs,or Jewish people who aren’t fans of any club?Are they not allowed to be upset that fans of 1 club are using it as a badge of honour,which some people treat as an insult to be thrown about?
Aside from the fact that other club's fans don't routinely have to suffer anti-Semitic abuse, isn't the whole point that it's not necessarily the term itself which is the problem, but the intent/motive behind it?
And while a Chelsea fan shouting about filthy Yids etc is unmistakeably prejudiced, Spurs (or Ajax) fans throwing it back in their faces by being proud of the club's Jewish connections is the polar opposite?
Is that really any different from eg Liverpool fans singing: “Mo Sa-la-la-la-lah, Mo Sa-la-la-la-lah, if he’s good enough for you, he’s good enough for me, if he scores another few, then I’ll be Muslim too,”
I should say I'm not entirely sure about all this, but I don't hear the word "Yid" and automatically assume it must be roundly condemned, irrespective of context.
P.S. My Spurs mate is half Sri Lankan, half English, meaning he's half Buddhist and half Christian (at least nominally). And he sings it too!
Aside from the fact that other club's fans don't routinely have to suffer anti-Semitic abuse, isn't the whole point that it's not necessarily the term itself which is the problem, but the intent/motive behind it?
And while a Chelsea fan shouting about filthy Yids etc is unmistakeably prejudiced, Spurs (or Ajax) fans throwing it back in their faces by being proud of the club's Jewish connections is the polar opposite?
Is that really any different from eg Liverpool fans singing: “Mo Sa-la-la-la-lah, Mo Sa-la-la-la-lah, if he’s good enough for you, he’s good enough for me, if he scores another few, then I’ll be Muslim too,”
I should say I'm not entirely sure about all this, but I don't hear the word "Yid" and automatically assume it must be roundly condemned, irrespective of context.
P.S. My Spurs mate is half Sri Lankan, half English, meaning he's half Buddhist and half Christian (at least nominally). And he sings it too!
[Post edited 8 Feb 2022 19:48]
I’m not Jewish,but a lot of Jewish people aren’t happy to hear the constant chant from spurs fans,so their feelings don’t count if spurs fans are only singing it because they’re proud of their Jewish heritage?
And the good people of Highbury Hill and quite a number of other streets south and east of the old Highbury would judtifiably argue their case for high salubriousness.
Some Jewish groups, who aren't necssarily football fans have objected, just as some LGBT(ahem)Q groups probably objected when some Gays started calling themselves "Queer".
But my Spurs mate tells me that a while back, the club sent out a questionnaire to all their 100k+ Members and ST Holders etc, asking them what they thought about it. The clear majority voted to keep it, meaning that it's not just a bunch of pissed-up 50 y.o.s marching up the Seven Sisters Road.
And for myself, it is many years since I started work in The City, where I became pally with one of the few football fans in my office. He was so Jewish he made Woody Allen look and sound like a Viking, and he was also a Spurs fan. And it took me, a sheltered country boy, a while before I stopped doing a double-take when he routinely referred to "going to see the Yids" at the weekend.
The real problem lies with the anti-Semitic supporters of other clubs. I imagine Spurs fans will drop their celebratory "Yid Army" chants when the others drop their Holocaust shit, but not before.
[Post edited 8 Feb 2022 16:45]
That's cute and all but you've completely missed the point. The word does not describe Tottenham Hotspur FC, even if it has been used by some football fans about them. It is a reference to Jews, and it has a horrible history behind it. So, frankly, the opinion of Tottenham fans on this issue is irrelevant - it's what Jews think that matters.
It would be comparable to fans of a club like QPR using the N word to describe themselves and insisting they were re-claiming it. Doesn't matter that we have the most diverse staffing in the sport and a fairly diverse fan base (compared to most clubs) - it still isn't our place to do that.
And the good people of Highbury Hill and quite a number of other streets south and east of the old Highbury would judtifiably argue their case for high salubriousness.
Good knowledge.
To be clear, when I say ‘plush’ I am using the language of others.
I was in Drayton Park yesterday for work funny enough, and I can tell you despite the Georgian front doors there is a lot of poverty there.
To be clear, when I say ‘plush’ I am using the language of others.
I was in Drayton Park yesterday for work funny enough, and I can tell you despite the Georgian front doors there is a lot of poverty there.
Ha. I know Drayton Park very well - my two sons in their twenties both went to the primary school. And, through my work, I know quite a few of the struggling people there, so I shan't disagree. A slight aside, I also saw Jezza knocking on doors in DP last Saturday, for the Labour Party! Which I find admirable, as he's been given the bums' rush by the NEC and the PLP. A man of principle.
Highbury Hill though, is not so fur hat and no draws. When I lived there 98-03, I was next door to Katherine Hamnett one side and the Irish guy who defended Rose West and, perhaps more admirably (it's a taxi rank tho), those two sisters who didn't murder the newly married boyfriend's wife (among many others I'm sure). I think Sade was still there somewhere at that time. Ok, these are just names but they have money and choice.
Sorry to turn this into an Ode to Highbury...
...don't get me started on Aberdeen Park, Sotheby Road and all round there
That's cute and all but you've completely missed the point. The word does not describe Tottenham Hotspur FC, even if it has been used by some football fans about them. It is a reference to Jews, and it has a horrible history behind it. So, frankly, the opinion of Tottenham fans on this issue is irrelevant - it's what Jews think that matters.
It would be comparable to fans of a club like QPR using the N word to describe themselves and insisting they were re-claiming it. Doesn't matter that we have the most diverse staffing in the sport and a fairly diverse fan base (compared to most clubs) - it still isn't our place to do that.
I'm hardly an expert on these things(!), but I really think it is a whole lot more nuanced than you allow.
Granted this is from Wiki (though it does have citations), but I found this interesting:
"In the case of Tottenham Hotspur, rival fans chanted antisemitic abuse including 'Yids' against Tottenham fans. In response some Jewish and non-Jewish fans of Tottenham Hotspur F.C. adopted "Yid" (or "Yiddo") as a nickname and "Yiddo, Yiddo!" as a battle cry and often identify themselves as "Yid Army". While such usage remains controversial, the majority of Tottenham fans, support its use in a survey and use the word with pride, and consider the usage an act of reclaiming the word as a badge of honour, nullifying its derogatory meaning when used by rival fans. In a survey, more than half of Jewish fans have no objection to the use of the word by Tottenham fans, but around a quarter preferred for it not to be used. Some Jewish Tottenham supporters consciously use it to identify the club as a bastion against racism and antisemitism."
While this Jewish commentator, writing in the LRB noted: "Shortly afterwards, [Spurs] released the findings of a survey, which showed that a large majority of its Jewish (73 per cent) and non-Jewish (74 per cent) fans thought that ‘yid’ songs should be allowed. Just 6 per cent and 4 per cent said the songs made them feel uncomfortable. In short, the songs are legal and offend hardly anybody. "
He went on: "Another problem with the [David] Baddiel argument is that it seems to imply the targets of anti-Semitic abuse are to blame for inciting their abusers. Philip Spencer, a professor of Holocaust studies and a Spurs season ticket holder, is comfortable with Tottenham’s ‘yid’ songs, and will have none of this. ‘Nobody is enabled by what Jews do, or what supporters of Jews do,’ he told a Tottenham podcast." https://www.lrb.co.uk/blog/2019/january/spurs-and-anti-semitism
I'm hardly an expert on these things(!), but I really think it is a whole lot more nuanced than you allow.
Granted this is from Wiki (though it does have citations), but I found this interesting:
"In the case of Tottenham Hotspur, rival fans chanted antisemitic abuse including 'Yids' against Tottenham fans. In response some Jewish and non-Jewish fans of Tottenham Hotspur F.C. adopted "Yid" (or "Yiddo") as a nickname and "Yiddo, Yiddo!" as a battle cry and often identify themselves as "Yid Army". While such usage remains controversial, the majority of Tottenham fans, support its use in a survey and use the word with pride, and consider the usage an act of reclaiming the word as a badge of honour, nullifying its derogatory meaning when used by rival fans. In a survey, more than half of Jewish fans have no objection to the use of the word by Tottenham fans, but around a quarter preferred for it not to be used. Some Jewish Tottenham supporters consciously use it to identify the club as a bastion against racism and antisemitism."
While this Jewish commentator, writing in the LRB noted: "Shortly afterwards, [Spurs] released the findings of a survey, which showed that a large majority of its Jewish (73 per cent) and non-Jewish (74 per cent) fans thought that ‘yid’ songs should be allowed. Just 6 per cent and 4 per cent said the songs made them feel uncomfortable. In short, the songs are legal and offend hardly anybody. "
He went on: "Another problem with the [David] Baddiel argument is that it seems to imply the targets of anti-Semitic abuse are to blame for inciting their abusers. Philip Spencer, a professor of Holocaust studies and a Spurs season ticket holder, is comfortable with Tottenham’s ‘yid’ songs, and will have none of this. ‘Nobody is enabled by what Jews do, or what supporters of Jews do,’ he told a Tottenham podcast." https://www.lrb.co.uk/blog/2019/january/spurs-and-anti-semitism
So you’ve totally missed my point about non spurs fans.Do they have to accept an insulting word sung by thousands of spurs fans because most of THEM think it’s ok to use it?
So you’ve totally missed my point about non spurs fans.Do they have to accept an insulting word sung by thousands of spurs fans because most of THEM think it’s ok to use it?
Except they're not "insulting" Jews, they're sticking up for them! It is the fans of other clubs who seek to insult Jews.
Just as eg homophobes insulted Gays by calling them "Queers", until Gays themselves reclaimed the word.
"Yid" is just a word, indeed one which I've heard Jews themselves use, being a corruption of the European "Jude".
And yes, you might get non-football fans, including non-Jews, who feel that this is wrong, but they don't know the circumstances.
Whereas those who do, are comfortable with this. Remember: "[Spurs] released the findings of a survey, which showed that a large majority of its Jewish (73 per cent) and non-Jewish (74 per cent) fans thought that ‘yid’ songs should be allowed."
Are they not better qualified to judge these things than outsiders, who know little or nothing about football, never mind Spurs?
Or when my old mate Simon ("Shimon", actually) used to talk about supporting the Yids, what right should I have had to pull him up on this? Should I have considered him, an observant Jew, an anti-Semite?
As I say, it's much more complex than "Oh look, that man is saying nasty words, arrest him!"
Thought I'd pop onto this thread about football grounds, saw NewBee got involved and expected some smug comment about how good the M4 Arena is. Oh no. It's far, far worse than that.
Thought I'd pop onto this thread about football grounds, saw NewBee got involved and expected some smug comment about how good the M4 Arena is. Oh no. It's far, far worse than that.
[Post edited 9 Feb 2022 15:21]
Er, this is not about "football grounds", it's about Spurs ground. And my first post was to comment about the beer there.
Then when another QPR fan brought up the behaviour of Spurs fans ("Yids" etc), I joined in.
And we were hardly alone - there are 3 or 4 other QPR fans who've found it sufficiently interesting to enjoy a civilised debate on the topic - feel free to join us if you have anything to contribute.
Meanwhile, none of us mentioned the Brentford stadium.
Except they're not "insulting" Jews, they're sticking up for them! It is the fans of other clubs who seek to insult Jews.
Just as eg homophobes insulted Gays by calling them "Queers", until Gays themselves reclaimed the word.
"Yid" is just a word, indeed one which I've heard Jews themselves use, being a corruption of the European "Jude".
And yes, you might get non-football fans, including non-Jews, who feel that this is wrong, but they don't know the circumstances.
Whereas those who do, are comfortable with this. Remember: "[Spurs] released the findings of a survey, which showed that a large majority of its Jewish (73 per cent) and non-Jewish (74 per cent) fans thought that ‘yid’ songs should be allowed."
Are they not better qualified to judge these things than outsiders, who know little or nothing about football, never mind Spurs?
Or when my old mate Simon ("Shimon", actually) used to talk about supporting the Yids, what right should I have had to pull him up on this? Should I have considered him, an observant Jew, an anti-Semite?
As I say, it's much more complex than "Oh look, that man is saying nasty words, arrest him!"
It seems spurs have had the balls to finally deal with it once and for all.
Er, this is not about "football grounds", it's about Spurs ground. And my first post was to comment about the beer there.
Then when another QPR fan brought up the behaviour of Spurs fans ("Yids" etc), I joined in.
And we were hardly alone - there are 3 or 4 other QPR fans who've found it sufficiently interesting to enjoy a civilised debate on the topic - feel free to join us if you have anything to contribute.
Meanwhile, none of us mentioned the Brentford stadium.
Ha. I know Drayton Park very well - my two sons in their twenties both went to the primary school. And, through my work, I know quite a few of the struggling people there, so I shan't disagree. A slight aside, I also saw Jezza knocking on doors in DP last Saturday, for the Labour Party! Which I find admirable, as he's been given the bums' rush by the NEC and the PLP. A man of principle.
Highbury Hill though, is not so fur hat and no draws. When I lived there 98-03, I was next door to Katherine Hamnett one side and the Irish guy who defended Rose West and, perhaps more admirably (it's a taxi rank tho), those two sisters who didn't murder the newly married boyfriend's wife (among many others I'm sure). I think Sade was still there somewhere at that time. Ok, these are just names but they have money and choice.
Sorry to turn this into an Ode to Highbury...
...don't get me started on Aberdeen Park, Sotheby Road and all round there
Funnily enough Katherine Hamnett was my neighbour last year. I liked her a lot. She's moved to Ibiza.
You can’t really compare the new Tottenham stadium to Loftus Road, but I did enjoy the walk up to the ground - despite being kettled with a load of Chelsea fans by the police outside Seven Sisters.
The local area has a bad rep but his full of character and lots of good places to eat and drink. It’s proper inner city ground. Not for everyone, but it’s what I like. I’d take that any day over flat pack job in an industrial estate.
The stadium is amazing, I’ve not been to a better ground. On the night the fans seemed resigned to losing. There’s was a bad atmosphere among them, arguments, swearing at players etc. Never felt like the fans were getting bending the team. It lacked the ‘edge’ I experienced at West Ham, which was really lively and not what I was expecting. I think they’ve done a good job bringing some character to the London stadium which is a lot more than Arsenal have done at the Emirates.
I also went to Plough Lane. The fans there are great and really got behind the team. The fans have a real sense of pride in their club. I think that gets lost at the bigger clubs. My only gripe with Wimbledon is the area is really dull. I’d advise anyone visiting to go via Tooting and check out the pubs around there. Wimbledon and Earlsfield are not my cup of tea. South Wimbledon use to have a good pub but that’s now a Tesco.
This is just personal opinion, I appreciate people are looking for different things from their match day experience. Last thing I’ll say, after all these trips away I’ve always left feeling proud to be a QPR fan. I’ve not seen anything during these jaunts that’s made me envious at all.
Fine post joe90 but I never meant to question yours or anybodys pride supporting QPR or comparing it to other clubs. Its just a shame our ground has the problems people regularly post on here despite their undying loyalty in going to every game. How much better would the experience be in 2022 with more legroom, no unobstructed views ,more clean toilets and food and drink availability to complete the experience . Attracting new fans will require all this and more as people want value for their money not just on the pitch .
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