| Russell Martin ‘ I told you we would get better’ We told you too ! on 12:49 - Nov 1 with 903 views | 34dfgdf54 |
Russell Martin's MK Dons side played on average 46 long balls per game, which was 3 more than what we played Saturday. We averaging 7 more than MK Dons per game, against better quality opposition, take into account away from fans in tow, aggressive press. Martin hasn't come here and suddenly come across "long balls", his team has got better in possession, partnerships have been formed, moving teams out of position and executing when the chance arises.
https://totalfootballanalysis.com/article/russell-martin-2020-21-league-one-mk-d |  | |  |
| Russell Martin ‘ I told you we would get better’ We told you too ! on 12:59 - Nov 1 with 879 views | andypitt56 |
| Russell Martin ‘ I told you we would get better’ We told you too ! on 12:23 - Nov 1 by vetchonian |
?????
Seriously you think Martin said to the players I want you to go out and just passit around we are not going to win games, just concentrate on possesion then when you are good at that we will move to the next phase.
That is suicide the players would immediately know they would not receive a their win bonus for a start.
Read the interview I posted that Martin gave last MArch at MKDOns he truely beleived the only way to play was short passing up to and tinto the oppostions box....he has cahnged that ...
Those early games were not building the foundations but playing the MArtin way....we dominated possesion and hardly ever passed the ball long...recently we are using long trhough balls more....thery just werent being played before...now they are and that has nothing to do with buildong foundations |
Yes that's exactly it, we are passing quicker and making more space available to open the gaps to play the long passes. Its not rocket science mate. |  | | |
| Russell Martin ‘ I told you we would get better’ We told you too ! on 14:45 - Nov 1 with 835 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Russell Martin ‘ I told you we would get better’ We told you too ! on 12:49 - Nov 1 by 34dfgdf54 |
Russell Martin's MK Dons side played on average 46 long balls per game, which was 3 more than what we played Saturday. We averaging 7 more than MK Dons per game, against better quality opposition, take into account away from fans in tow, aggressive press. Martin hasn't come here and suddenly come across "long balls", his team has got better in possession, partnerships have been formed, moving teams out of position and executing when the chance arises.
https://totalfootballanalysis.com/article/russell-martin-2020-21-league-one-mk-d |
I’m sure that made sense to you when you typed it anyway.
What he did at MK Dons is irrelevant, it’s what he did here that we are talking about. Who is saying he discovered long balls here? He’s a former footballer, I’m sure he knows what a long pass is.
What is said is that when he first came here he clearly did not want to go long, that has been demonstrated time and time again. In great detail. Many astute fans pin pointed that as the clear weakness in our early games and something that is holding us back, the clear reluctance to play the direct ball.
We have doubled and even tripled our long direct balls in our resurgence from the awful style we were playing when he arrived and many of our goals are now coming from it. It has nothing to do with partnerships or getting better in possession, it’s about a smarter game plan. They may be true, but it’s a separate matter; they don’t spark a change of style, which we clearly have.
But we have been through this many times now. |  |
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| Russell Martin ‘ I told you we would get better’ We told you too ! on 14:49 - Nov 1 with 834 views | 34dfgdf54 |
| Russell Martin ‘ I told you we would get better’ We told you too ! on 14:45 - Nov 1 by Dr_Parnassus |
I’m sure that made sense to you when you typed it anyway.
What he did at MK Dons is irrelevant, it’s what he did here that we are talking about. Who is saying he discovered long balls here? He’s a former footballer, I’m sure he knows what a long pass is.
What is said is that when he first came here he clearly did not want to go long, that has been demonstrated time and time again. In great detail. Many astute fans pin pointed that as the clear weakness in our early games and something that is holding us back, the clear reluctance to play the direct ball.
We have doubled and even tripled our long direct balls in our resurgence from the awful style we were playing when he arrived and many of our goals are now coming from it. It has nothing to do with partnerships or getting better in possession, it’s about a smarter game plan. They may be true, but it’s a separate matter; they don’t spark a change of style, which we clearly have.
But we have been through this many times now. |
It makes perfect sense to those without an agenda. He is playing the football he's always played, just better.
You couldn't even point out what a long ball actually was when pressed the other day apart from randomly making up a 15 yard figure off top of your head.
We also have vetchonian saying Martin only believes short passing is the only way of playing, when that clearly has never been the case with the figures from his MK Dons days, nice try though all the same. Splash. As you say.
You said we would never have between 4%-7% again, you was wrong, again, but we have also been through that plenty of times, the list is growing weekly it seems. [Post edited 1 Nov 2021 14:53]
| | | |
| Russell Martin ‘ I told you we would get better’ We told you too ! on 15:00 - Nov 1 with 813 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Russell Martin ‘ I told you we would get better’ We told you too ! on 11:32 - Nov 1 by andypitt56 |
Its not hard to get that we started off with the basics of RM plan, then as the players get better at it, they start adding the next layer of the plan. What we are seeing now is RM style of play, what we were seeing in the first few weeks were the FOUNDATIONS!! This has always been his style, you cant run before you can walk. You are seriously deluded if you cant see that. |
We didn’t start with the basics and get better at it, that’s just a shaped narrative not born out by reality or common sense.
The basics is direct passing, that’s what people knocked the last manager for remember. Because they wanted another way of playing.
So the curve we would see if what you said was the case would be something like a 15% long ball style with moderate posession, with short passing added in slowly progressing week by week increasing the possession and decreasing the long balls.
That would be the curve of your explanation. However it’s the complete opposite.
We went 95%/96% short immediately, however as we were not getting the results we changed tactics. Gradually the direct, long balls went up to somewhere in the region of 87%-88% short, that’s a clear and obvious difference in style and the curve clearly correlates to points gained over time.
The “same but now better” narrative really doesn’t hold any weight at all. | |
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| Russell Martin ‘ I told you we would get better’ We told you too ! on 15:04 - Nov 1 with 815 views | 34dfgdf54 |
| Russell Martin ‘ I told you we would get better’ We told you too ! on 15:00 - Nov 1 by Dr_Parnassus |
We didn’t start with the basics and get better at it, that’s just a shaped narrative not born out by reality or common sense.
The basics is direct passing, that’s what people knocked the last manager for remember. Because they wanted another way of playing.
So the curve we would see if what you said was the case would be something like a 15% long ball style with moderate posession, with short passing added in slowly progressing week by week increasing the possession and decreasing the long balls.
That would be the curve of your explanation. However it’s the complete opposite.
We went 95%/96% short immediately, however as we were not getting the results we changed tactics. Gradually the direct, long balls went up to somewhere in the region of 87%-88% short, that’s a clear and obvious difference in style and the curve clearly correlates to points gained over time.
The “same but now better” narrative really doesn’t hold any weight at all. |
<< The basics is direct passing, that’s what people knocked the last manager for remember. Because they wanted another way of playing. >>
So all of this is because you're still mad at people having a go at Cooper for the football he played? There has been a huge shift in the way we play, you don't need percentages and stats to show that, that's not even up for debate. You can say Cooper was more successful, the proof will be in the pudding with that, but our recent successes have not been down to going down the Cooper route, you'd be seriously thick even trying to suggest that... [Post edited 1 Nov 2021 15:13]
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| Russell Martin ‘ I told you we would get better’ We told you too ! on 15:16 - Nov 1 with 797 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Russell Martin ‘ I told you we would get better’ We told you too ! on 15:04 - Nov 1 by 34dfgdf54 |
<< The basics is direct passing, that’s what people knocked the last manager for remember. Because they wanted another way of playing. >>
So all of this is because you're still mad at people having a go at Cooper for the football he played? There has been a huge shift in the way we play, you don't need percentages and stats to show that, that's not even up for debate. You can say Cooper was more successful, the proof will be in the pudding with that, but our recent successes have not been down to going down the Cooper route, you'd be seriously thick even trying to suggest that... [Post edited 1 Nov 2021 15:13]
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Huh? What has Cooper got to do with it? And what am I supposed to be “mad” about?
I said direct balls is the basics. That’s why Cardiff play direct, they have no technical players. People complained about Cooper playing basic long balls (although that’s largely a myth). It has nothing to do with my feelings on anything, I am demonstrating what is classed as “basic”.
So if we say we started with the basics and developed, we would see a high concentration of direct (basic) balls at the start of the reign and slowly introducing short passing as time went on. Yet we see the opposite of that trend, the curve has clearly been us over-complicating things at the start, realising it’s not working and easing off them as time has gone on.
Everytime someone says “direct balls” they automatically think the point is being made that we are playing “the Cooper way”. It has nothing to do with Cooper. Cooper didn’t invent direct passing, Man City play direct balls too. There are a million styles that can incorporate direct or mixed passing.
People are far too touchy about Cooper. Not everything is about Steve.
You are right there has been a huge shift in the way we play, but you are incorrect if you think people don’t recognise it. People genuinely think we are playing the same way that we did vs Blackburn, we are just better at it now. To use your phrase, seriously thick doesn’t even cover that view. | |
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| Russell Martin ‘ I told you we would get better’ We told you too ! on 15:22 - Nov 1 with 796 views | 34dfgdf54 |
| Russell Martin ‘ I told you we would get better’ We told you too ! on 15:16 - Nov 1 by Dr_Parnassus |
Huh? What has Cooper got to do with it? And what am I supposed to be “mad” about?
I said direct balls is the basics. That’s why Cardiff play direct, they have no technical players. People complained about Cooper playing basic long balls (although that’s largely a myth). It has nothing to do with my feelings on anything, I am demonstrating what is classed as “basic”.
So if we say we started with the basics and developed, we would see a high concentration of direct (basic) balls at the start of the reign and slowly introducing short passing as time went on. Yet we see the opposite of that trend, the curve has clearly been us over-complicating things at the start, realising it’s not working and easing off them as time has gone on.
Everytime someone says “direct balls” they automatically think the point is being made that we are playing “the Cooper way”. It has nothing to do with Cooper. Cooper didn’t invent direct passing, Man City play direct balls too. There are a million styles that can incorporate direct or mixed passing.
People are far too touchy about Cooper. Not everything is about Steve.
You are right there has been a huge shift in the way we play, but you are incorrect if you think people don’t recognise it. People genuinely think we are playing the same way that we did vs Blackburn, we are just better at it now. To use your phrase, seriously thick doesn’t even cover that view. |
You mentioned the "former manager", not me.
<<People genuinely think we are playing the same way that we did vs Blackburn, we are just better at it now.>>
We are playing the way Martin has played at his previous employment, and the way we set out to play at the start. Obviously we didn't have Laird back at start of the season, which i'd assume a big percentage of passes over the distance of 15 yards are aimed at due to his pace, so that would also impact the stats. The lack of a pre season also obviously had an impact. Laird quotes again:
""It can be hard because he's only been here for three months or so. The way we play is intense, there's a lot of sprints and short distance running to get the ball back so we can do what we do best."
No pre season set us back weeks. I don't even think we are anywhere near fit enough even now. | | | |
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| Russell Martin ‘ I told you we would get better’ We told you too ! on 15:28 - Nov 1 with 788 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Russell Martin ‘ I told you we would get better’ We told you too ! on 15:22 - Nov 1 by 34dfgdf54 |
You mentioned the "former manager", not me.
<<People genuinely think we are playing the same way that we did vs Blackburn, we are just better at it now.>>
We are playing the way Martin has played at his previous employment, and the way we set out to play at the start. Obviously we didn't have Laird back at start of the season, which i'd assume a big percentage of passes over the distance of 15 yards are aimed at due to his pace, so that would also impact the stats. The lack of a pre season also obviously had an impact. Laird quotes again:
""It can be hard because he's only been here for three months or so. The way we play is intense, there's a lot of sprints and short distance running to get the ball back so we can do what we do best."
No pre season set us back weeks. I don't even think we are anywhere near fit enough even now. |
Yes I referenced what people moaned about last year, his direct style being basic. It was to show that the argument “Martin started off with the basics” to be backwards, he didn’t.
You were the one who linked this mixed game to being “Coopers style”, not me.
Disagree, the way we set out at the start was nothing like what we are playing now, for the reasons I just explained and have explained in depth several times, complete with player positioning, pass patterns, heat maps and pass compositions.
Possession football doesn’t require extreme fitness. If a team has 75% and the other 25%, it’s the 25% team that walk off the pitch the exhausted ones. If you have possession you control the tempo, without it the tempo is dictated to you.
We required far greater fitness levels playing the way we played last year compared to the way we play now. Ayew used to run himself into the ground chasing down the opposition. With this style, they do the chasing. | |
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| Russell Martin ‘ I told you we would get better’ We told you too ! on 16:35 - Nov 1 with 750 views | Catullus |
| Russell Martin ‘ I told you we would get better’ We told you too ! on 14:45 - Nov 1 by Dr_Parnassus |
I’m sure that made sense to you when you typed it anyway.
What he did at MK Dons is irrelevant, it’s what he did here that we are talking about. Who is saying he discovered long balls here? He’s a former footballer, I’m sure he knows what a long pass is.
What is said is that when he first came here he clearly did not want to go long, that has been demonstrated time and time again. In great detail. Many astute fans pin pointed that as the clear weakness in our early games and something that is holding us back, the clear reluctance to play the direct ball.
We have doubled and even tripled our long direct balls in our resurgence from the awful style we were playing when he arrived and many of our goals are now coming from it. It has nothing to do with partnerships or getting better in possession, it’s about a smarter game plan. They may be true, but it’s a separate matter; they don’t spark a change of style, which we clearly have.
But we have been through this many times now. |
Funny that because you used to use stats from his MK days to make points about him, or should that be score points?
As I said before, you seem to have stopped using stats now that we have improved so much.
I'm sure one astute fan suggested we were in a relegation fight which was as premature as anyone now saying we are certain for the play offs.
I'm sure you also said we didn't have the players to play this style and yet we are playing this style, quite succesfully now too, given some time it seems much is possible. | |
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| Russell Martin ‘ I told you we would get better’ We told you too ! on 16:36 - Nov 1 with 744 views | onehunglow |
| Russell Martin ‘ I told you we would get better’ We told you too ! on 16:35 - Nov 1 by Catullus |
Funny that because you used to use stats from his MK days to make points about him, or should that be score points?
As I said before, you seem to have stopped using stats now that we have improved so much.
I'm sure one astute fan suggested we were in a relegation fight which was as premature as anyone now saying we are certain for the play offs.
I'm sure you also said we didn't have the players to play this style and yet we are playing this style, quite succesfully now too, given some time it seems much is possible. |
I said we could get into a relegation scrap,and we can ,just as we could get a play off place.
It’s only words
And words are all I have | |
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| Russell Martin ‘ I told you we would get better’ We told you too ! on 16:42 - Nov 1 with 745 views | vetchonian |
| Russell Martin ‘ I told you we would get better’ We told you too ! on 14:49 - Nov 1 by 34dfgdf54 |
It makes perfect sense to those without an agenda. He is playing the football he's always played, just better.
You couldn't even point out what a long ball actually was when pressed the other day apart from randomly making up a 15 yard figure off top of your head.
We also have vetchonian saying Martin only believes short passing is the only way of playing, when that clearly has never been the case with the figures from his MK Dons days, nice try though all the same. Splash. As you say.
You said we would never have between 4%-7% again, you was wrong, again, but we have also been through that plenty of times, the list is growing weekly it seems. [Post edited 1 Nov 2021 14:53]
|
Maybe Im thick but having looked at that article you provided alink to I cannot see a reference to long balls I do see this quotes though
In this example we see this as Fisher is initially in possession, 25-yards out from goal, as he is pressed he could be forgiven for looking for a longer pass in order to escape the pressure. Instead, he has the composure to find the feet of the rotating midfielder who receives and then turns to attack forward and through the lines. There are two passes that are perhaps easier in order to retain possession but MK Dons players are encouraged to be brave and proactive in possession.
I also found this on the MKDOns fans forum
"
Results aside, I have thoroughly enjoyed every game so far this season. The team have been a real joy to watch and every game has been exciting.
They’ve cut out the overplaying at the back, whilst still controlling games possession wise.
We have had a really tough start to the season fixtures wise but I think we’re going to go on to do well this season.
I do think we need to strengthen both LWB and RWB areas though.
I'm loving it. More exciting and positive/forward thinking than under Russ. We aren't aimlessly passing it sideways and backwards for the sake of keeping the ball, we're actually pushing forward at every opportunity.
We seem to be really good at those passing triangles. O'Riley, Robson and Twine so good in midfield at creating space.
I agree we look weak at wing back defensively. Their LB/LWB today caused havoc and got too many crosses in."
It seems from those quotes what we saw at athe start of the season was what he used at the DOns. and does this quote point to the football we are seeing now or more like that we saw at the start of the season?
I'm loving it. More exciting and positive/forward thinking than under Russ. We aren't aimlessly passing it sideways and backwards for the sake of keeping the ball, we're actually pushing forward at every opportunity.
I think maybe the trime has come for us all to move on. It seems we are now getting results...some believe as we are fitter, the team has gelled ,the style of play has been tweaked it may be that all 3 of these reasons amongst others may have contributed,
Long may our recent successes continue.
Its time for those with Cooper obsessions to let them go.....those who disliked him and his football for whatever reasons need to stop defending Martin when he is criticised if things go wrong and also not feel protective when a non passing style is discussed....As has been said the MArtin style is nothing akin to Martinez or Rodgers or LAudrup as none of those were directly comparable either.
Supporters of Cooper need to back off too....I admit I have been defensive of him in the past mainly as so mnay myths were perpetuated.
It is all about opinions and we all have different opinions....For me I have found this season strange in that it has seemed it was not "allowed" to critique.....Unfirtuneately I have never been one to just accpet things at face value but have analised and looked for data...
For me the start if the season was hard to accpet losing despite us apparantly dominating possesion...hence my " obsession with possesion" quote.
Lets see how the season continues....lets hope Martin has now found the magic formula
and we start winning games and climbing the table...whilst ebing entertained of course | |
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| Russell Martin ‘ I told you we would get better’ We told you too ! on 20:37 - Nov 1 with 688 views | Evs |
| Russell Martin ‘ I told you we would get better’ We told you too ! on 12:23 - Nov 1 by vetchonian |
?????
Seriously you think Martin said to the players I want you to go out and just passit around we are not going to win games, just concentrate on possesion then when you are good at that we will move to the next phase.
That is suicide the players would immediately know they would not receive a their win bonus for a start.
Read the interview I posted that Martin gave last MArch at MKDOns he truely beleived the only way to play was short passing up to and tinto the oppostions box....he has cahnged that ...
Those early games were not building the foundations but playing the MArtin way....we dominated possesion and hardly ever passed the ball long...recently we are using long trhough balls more....thery just werent being played before...now they are and that has nothing to do with buildong foundations |
Vetch,
You're a frequent poster on this forum and I applaud you for that.
Would you be happy to provide a transcription of that interview back in March? More specifically, just the bits where RM spoke about "short passing"?
For me, I think RM's footballing philosophy (if you like) is to dominate possession, control the ball, tire the opposition, pick them off by passing and movement.
So, as strange as andypitt's reasoning might seem to some, I fully agree with his supposition. With very limited training sessions, no pre-season blah blah blah, I believe it's highly likely that RM told the players to control possession at all costs (the initial building block in his philosophy) - this resulted in some chaotic performances and humiliating results initially.
The other elements of RM's system have been seen more recently, presumably because the players are now more confident with it and brave enough to go more direct when the opportunity arises. From memory, in his post-match interviews, I think he even said that he wanted the players to be "more brave". I can check this.
I'm sure RM takes full responsibility for all the performances, both the initial chaotic ones and the recent wins too. Personally, I think he's on the right track, and always has been. |  | | |
| Russell Martin ‘ I told you we would get better’ We told you too ! on 20:49 - Nov 1 with 681 views | Evs |
| Russell Martin ‘ I told you we would get better’ We told you too ! on 15:16 - Nov 1 by Dr_Parnassus |
Huh? What has Cooper got to do with it? And what am I supposed to be “mad” about?
I said direct balls is the basics. That’s why Cardiff play direct, they have no technical players. People complained about Cooper playing basic long balls (although that’s largely a myth). It has nothing to do with my feelings on anything, I am demonstrating what is classed as “basic”.
So if we say we started with the basics and developed, we would see a high concentration of direct (basic) balls at the start of the reign and slowly introducing short passing as time went on. Yet we see the opposite of that trend, the curve has clearly been us over-complicating things at the start, realising it’s not working and easing off them as time has gone on.
Everytime someone says “direct balls” they automatically think the point is being made that we are playing “the Cooper way”. It has nothing to do with Cooper. Cooper didn’t invent direct passing, Man City play direct balls too. There are a million styles that can incorporate direct or mixed passing.
People are far too touchy about Cooper. Not everything is about Steve.
You are right there has been a huge shift in the way we play, but you are incorrect if you think people don’t recognise it. People genuinely think we are playing the same way that we did vs Blackburn, we are just better at it now. To use your phrase, seriously thick doesn’t even cover that view. |
If there's one thing we know about RM, he does like to dominate possession. I'm sure you have stats in your back pocket to prove that one.
I would argue that direct balls are absolutely not the basics of a footballing philosophy based on dominating possession.
They might be the basics of other footballing philosophies, of course. Just not RM's. | | | |
| Russell Martin ‘ I told you we would get better’ We told you too ! on 21:09 - Nov 1 with 666 views | vetchonian |
| Russell Martin ‘ I told you we would get better’ We told you too ! on 20:37 - Nov 1 by Evs |
Vetch,
You're a frequent poster on this forum and I applaud you for that.
Would you be happy to provide a transcription of that interview back in March? More specifically, just the bits where RM spoke about "short passing"?
For me, I think RM's footballing philosophy (if you like) is to dominate possession, control the ball, tire the opposition, pick them off by passing and movement.
So, as strange as andypitt's reasoning might seem to some, I fully agree with his supposition. With very limited training sessions, no pre-season blah blah blah, I believe it's highly likely that RM told the players to control possession at all costs (the initial building block in his philosophy) - this resulted in some chaotic performances and humiliating results initially.
The other elements of RM's system have been seen more recently, presumably because the players are now more confident with it and brave enough to go more direct when the opportunity arises. From memory, in his post-match interviews, I think he even said that he wanted the players to be "more brave". I can check this.
I'm sure RM takes full responsibility for all the performances, both the initial chaotic ones and the recent wins too. Personally, I think he's on the right track, and always has been. |
its here
https://trainingground.guru/articles/russell-martin-people,-purpose-(and-possess
see also this
Martin’s possession-based style can be seen by looking at the statistics. MK Dons have the second most short passes per game with 383, just above league-leaders Coventry City. And despite their lowly position in the table, the Dons average the fourth-highest possession percentage — it being 52.6%. Along with this, they stand third for pass success percentage, registering 76.1%. | |
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| Russell Martin ‘ I told you we would get better’ We told you too ! on 23:33 - Nov 1 with 628 views | YouBackJastard |
| Russell Martin ‘ I told you we would get better’ We told you too ! on 16:42 - Nov 1 by vetchonian |
Maybe Im thick but having looked at that article you provided alink to I cannot see a reference to long balls I do see this quotes though
In this example we see this as Fisher is initially in possession, 25-yards out from goal, as he is pressed he could be forgiven for looking for a longer pass in order to escape the pressure. Instead, he has the composure to find the feet of the rotating midfielder who receives and then turns to attack forward and through the lines. There are two passes that are perhaps easier in order to retain possession but MK Dons players are encouraged to be brave and proactive in possession.
I also found this on the MKDOns fans forum
"
Results aside, I have thoroughly enjoyed every game so far this season. The team have been a real joy to watch and every game has been exciting.
They’ve cut out the overplaying at the back, whilst still controlling games possession wise.
We have had a really tough start to the season fixtures wise but I think we’re going to go on to do well this season.
I do think we need to strengthen both LWB and RWB areas though.
I'm loving it. More exciting and positive/forward thinking than under Russ. We aren't aimlessly passing it sideways and backwards for the sake of keeping the ball, we're actually pushing forward at every opportunity.
We seem to be really good at those passing triangles. O'Riley, Robson and Twine so good in midfield at creating space.
I agree we look weak at wing back defensively. Their LB/LWB today caused havoc and got too many crosses in."
It seems from those quotes what we saw at athe start of the season was what he used at the DOns. and does this quote point to the football we are seeing now or more like that we saw at the start of the season?
I'm loving it. More exciting and positive/forward thinking than under Russ. We aren't aimlessly passing it sideways and backwards for the sake of keeping the ball, we're actually pushing forward at every opportunity.
I think maybe the trime has come for us all to move on. It seems we are now getting results...some believe as we are fitter, the team has gelled ,the style of play has been tweaked it may be that all 3 of these reasons amongst others may have contributed,
Long may our recent successes continue.
Its time for those with Cooper obsessions to let them go.....those who disliked him and his football for whatever reasons need to stop defending Martin when he is criticised if things go wrong and also not feel protective when a non passing style is discussed....As has been said the MArtin style is nothing akin to Martinez or Rodgers or LAudrup as none of those were directly comparable either.
Supporters of Cooper need to back off too....I admit I have been defensive of him in the past mainly as so mnay myths were perpetuated.
It is all about opinions and we all have different opinions....For me I have found this season strange in that it has seemed it was not "allowed" to critique.....Unfirtuneately I have never been one to just accpet things at face value but have analised and looked for data...
For me the start if the season was hard to accpet losing despite us apparantly dominating possesion...hence my " obsession with possesion" quote.
Lets see how the season continues....lets hope Martin has now found the magic formula
and we start winning games and climbing the table...whilst ebing entertained of course |
Context is very much needed in the case of MK, Martin was essentially working with scraps for the majority of the windows he oversaw until this season when he was finally well backed (before he decided to move to a much bigger club), spending well over a million on one player (transfer record was £200k the summer before), securing Parrott & Watters loan deals to help sort their #9 crisis out and several other great deals without even mentioning getting one of the best players in the division on their books, Scott Twine. Genuine question - is it any real surprise the club is doing better after Martin established the groundwork and brought in much better players to the club for the next manager to work with? He took over a club resigned to relegation under Tisdale in November a few years back and going nowhere, and turned them into one of the most exciting and in form leagues in League One (sixth in the form table in their last twelve matches, sixth best team at home in the division over the entire season. I read that he was sixth in the form table over his last thirty games, but have been unable to verify) during his FIRST managerial gig.
The lack of credit he gets on this forum for his previous work is astounding, even reading comments from some saying that his philosophy 'achieved nothing' and was 'ego-stroking' (???), and that it could never have worked in the Championship. Our PPG last season over the last eight games was 1.38, this year our last six games have been 1.67. Martin has done a marvelous job after laying the groundwork that he established at MK in the first few months and his managerial approach means essentially guaranteed consistent success in the future, rather than form being something volatile that can change at any moment. Long may it continue, I say. | | | |
| Russell Martin ‘ I told you we would get better’ We told you too ! on 23:47 - Nov 1 with 614 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Russell Martin ‘ I told you we would get better’ We told you too ! on 16:35 - Nov 1 by Catullus |
Funny that because you used to use stats from his MK days to make points about him, or should that be score points?
As I said before, you seem to have stopped using stats now that we have improved so much.
I'm sure one astute fan suggested we were in a relegation fight which was as premature as anyone now saying we are certain for the play offs.
I'm sure you also said we didn't have the players to play this style and yet we are playing this style, quite succesfully now too, given some time it seems much is possible. |
Which point was that then?
I don’t remember making any statistical points from the MK Dons days, unless the reference was brought up by someone initially. Are you talking about style of play? Or something generic like league position/points per game etc?
One is very different to the other.
“As I said before”… every time you say it you are wrong. You would think you have learned your lesson on that by now.
Where have I stopped using stats? You seem to be having cyclical conversations with me. I ALWAYS use stats and will continue to use stats, you are making things up. What you may mean is when everyone agrees, then me showing them stats on what they already agree on is futile.
Stats is a method to prove what I am saying is correct against a wave of disagreement. When we play well then everyone agrees, no stats necessary.
I did say we didn’t have the players to play this style, and we didn’t… hence why he changed that style and bought 9 new ones.
Because what I ACTUALLY said was “We don’t have the players to play this style YET, so we should play more sensibly UNTIL we do”, but you conveniently and dishonestly left out that bit didn’t you. Tut tut.
Keep up at the back Cat, you are asking me things you asked me days ago and have answered.
You seem desperate to “catch me out” when you neither have the ability, nor the material to. I’m afraid I won’t be changing what I said to suit what you would prefer me to have said, as convenient as that would be for you.
What I ACTUALLY said, I was spot on with. But I’m sure you know that already… so please stop altering it and please stop making up false facts, if you continue down this path I will be demanding exact quotes to be produced, and we all know you will immediately start to look a little silly.
Thanks. [Post edited 1 Nov 2021 23:49]
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| Russell Martin ‘ I told you we would get better’ We told you too ! on 23:59 - Nov 1 with 607 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Russell Martin ‘ I told you we would get better’ We told you too ! on 20:49 - Nov 1 by Evs |
If there's one thing we know about RM, he does like to dominate possession. I'm sure you have stats in your back pocket to prove that one.
I would argue that direct balls are absolutely not the basics of a footballing philosophy based on dominating possession.
They might be the basics of other footballing philosophies, of course. Just not RM's. |
Of course, we have many managers that have dominated possession. Every single one of them used the key element of the direct ball, it’s how it fits together and the basic pass that all clubs adopt regardless of style, it’s the epitome of the “basics” as a result. Every club and player is familiar with it as it is present in every style.
With Roberto and Brendan who also dominated possession, the direct ball was the biggest attacking weapon. From Williams’ diagonal passes, Allen’s cutting through balls, Rangels chips over the top to Dyer. The point of short passing is to draw the opposition out of the positions before springing a quick attack.
If you ONLY rely on short passing then those attacks are naturally slower and easier to defend. This is exactly what we saw early on. We were toothless and as a result invited pressure on us as we opted to instead keep possession in dangerous areas (defensively). This appears to be what MK Dons moaned about too, but it was certainly present with us.
If you look back at that time, THIS was the origin of all the complaints and the desire to add the direct ball in.
We were told we are sticking with it, Martin can’t adapt and we would have to lump it. They were wrong about that, Martin did adapt and we have introduced a direct ball we were calling for from the start which the lack of was clearly hampering us.
Those fans should be applauded for their foresight, but instead it seems people are trying to change what they said subtly and saying “Aha, gotcha”. Very silly, but no less than I expect these days.
The “we don’t play any different because we still dominate possession” is one of the most brainless stances out there currently. And now there is the introduction of “we were always going to change, they just started with 95% short passing as that was the basics”… the basics (?!), that’s Spain tiki taka advanced passing 101... hence we couldn’t do it with the players we had.
All designed of course to not recognise that the early complaints were correct and valid - now recognised as such everywhere, including the club it seems.
Where is the fun in commending others for being right, when you can make it up and slate them, right? [Post edited 2 Nov 2021 0:06]
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| Russell Martin ‘ I told you we would get better’ We told you too ! on 00:10 - Nov 2 with 605 views | YouBackJastard |
| Russell Martin ‘ I told you we would get better’ We told you too ! on 23:59 - Nov 1 by Dr_Parnassus |
Of course, we have many managers that have dominated possession. Every single one of them used the key element of the direct ball, it’s how it fits together and the basic pass that all clubs adopt regardless of style, it’s the epitome of the “basics” as a result. Every club and player is familiar with it as it is present in every style.
With Roberto and Brendan who also dominated possession, the direct ball was the biggest attacking weapon. From Williams’ diagonal passes, Allen’s cutting through balls, Rangels chips over the top to Dyer. The point of short passing is to draw the opposition out of the positions before springing a quick attack.
If you ONLY rely on short passing then those attacks are naturally slower and easier to defend. This is exactly what we saw early on. We were toothless and as a result invited pressure on us as we opted to instead keep possession in dangerous areas (defensively). This appears to be what MK Dons moaned about too, but it was certainly present with us.
If you look back at that time, THIS was the origin of all the complaints and the desire to add the direct ball in.
We were told we are sticking with it, Martin can’t adapt and we would have to lump it. They were wrong about that, Martin did adapt and we have introduced a direct ball we were calling for from the start which the lack of was clearly hampering us.
Those fans should be applauded for their foresight, but instead it seems people are trying to change what they said subtly and saying “Aha, gotcha”. Very silly, but no less than I expect these days.
The “we don’t play any different because we still dominate possession” is one of the most brainless stances out there currently. And now there is the introduction of “we were always going to change, they just started with 95% short passing as that was the basics”… the basics (?!), that’s Spain tiki taka advanced passing 101... hence we couldn’t do it with the players we had.
All designed of course to not recognise that the early complaints were correct and valid - now recognised as such everywhere, including the club it seems.
Where is the fun in commending others for being right, when you can make it up and slate them, right? [Post edited 2 Nov 2021 0:06]
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...why are you so obsessed over our early style? It's evident from several interviews that Martin decided to work on nothing but defense when he came in as he only had very few days he had before Blackburn to train and work with the team, and that showed in the three 0-0 games between Hull, Derby and Millwall. The longer he got with his team, the more he was able to work on the transitional phase and in the end our attacking play (clear evidence from this - our improvement going forward after every single international break) coupled with building fitness has lead to recent results.
If you give it longer than two seconds thought you'd understand what Martin has been building here has not changed. He has not suddenly discovered the fundamentals of football after a few weeks. The 'process' has been extremely clear from the start no matter if you bury your head in the sand and ignore reasonable logic to suit these poor takes. | | | |
| Russell Martin ‘ I told you we would get better’ We told you too ! on 00:16 - Nov 2 with 600 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Russell Martin ‘ I told you we would get better’ We told you too ! on 23:33 - Nov 1 by YouBackJastard |
Context is very much needed in the case of MK, Martin was essentially working with scraps for the majority of the windows he oversaw until this season when he was finally well backed (before he decided to move to a much bigger club), spending well over a million on one player (transfer record was £200k the summer before), securing Parrott & Watters loan deals to help sort their #9 crisis out and several other great deals without even mentioning getting one of the best players in the division on their books, Scott Twine. Genuine question - is it any real surprise the club is doing better after Martin established the groundwork and brought in much better players to the club for the next manager to work with? He took over a club resigned to relegation under Tisdale in November a few years back and going nowhere, and turned them into one of the most exciting and in form leagues in League One (sixth in the form table in their last twelve matches, sixth best team at home in the division over the entire season. I read that he was sixth in the form table over his last thirty games, but have been unable to verify) during his FIRST managerial gig.
The lack of credit he gets on this forum for his previous work is astounding, even reading comments from some saying that his philosophy 'achieved nothing' and was 'ego-stroking' (???), and that it could never have worked in the Championship. Our PPG last season over the last eight games was 1.38, this year our last six games have been 1.67. Martin has done a marvelous job after laying the groundwork that he established at MK in the first few months and his managerial approach means essentially guaranteed consistent success in the future, rather than form being something volatile that can change at any moment. Long may it continue, I say. |
I think the only ones really qualified to talk about his work at MK Dons will be the MK Dons fans who watched it week in week out. There are mixed comments but the ones that many would perceive as negative all had the same analytical conclusion to them, to ignore them would be deeply silly.
Why are you comparing our last 8 games last season to our last 6 games this season? This is the sort of nonsense that starts with an outcome and works backwards. Had those stats not been to your liking, no doubt you would have changed to “last 4 games” instead.
If you want to compare PPG then you take complete data sets, you don’t just compare good form against bad form, from different points of the season and try and pass them off as equals.
I’ll happily help you out with that, no clue what it will be myself as not had a reason to look…. but will post regardless.
Stand by. | |
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| Russell Martin ‘ I told you we would get better’ We told you too ! on 00:22 - Nov 2 with 597 views | Dr_Parnassus |
So an accurate like for like PPG comparison with last season is as follows:
First 15 games under Cooper: 1.73
First 15 games under Martin: 1.33
If you wish to use the excuse “Martin was a new manager with new players though”, then when if we compare to the year before where we also had a new manager and new players:
First 15 games of year previous: 1.86 | |
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| Russell Martin ‘ I told you we would get better’ We told you too ! on 00:26 - Nov 2 with 595 views | YouBackJastard |
| Russell Martin ‘ I told you we would get better’ We told you too ! on 00:16 - Nov 2 by Dr_Parnassus |
I think the only ones really qualified to talk about his work at MK Dons will be the MK Dons fans who watched it week in week out. There are mixed comments but the ones that many would perceive as negative all had the same analytical conclusion to them, to ignore them would be deeply silly.
Why are you comparing our last 8 games last season to our last 6 games this season? This is the sort of nonsense that starts with an outcome and works backwards. Had those stats not been to your liking, no doubt you would have changed to “last 4 games” instead.
If you want to compare PPG then you take complete data sets, you don’t just compare good form against bad form, from different points of the season and try and pass them off as equals.
I’ll happily help you out with that, no clue what it will be myself as not had a reason to look…. but will post regardless.
Stand by. |
Given how some have reacted to Cooper on here after he left with only two weeks of the season to go, it's reasonable to assume that many MK Dons fans would be bitter about Martin leaving when their first league game of the season was 2-5 days away. Of course I'm not saying I know more than someone who's watched them for years but I did watch as many MK games as I could catch last season as I was a fan of Martinball having heard praise from other people in the game, which does give me a slight leg up on people who pull up the final league table and make complete conclusions based off it.
I used those stats because they were the only ones I could find on soccerstats, tried to match them as best I could. There was no intention of manipulating data, if you have a site that has specific form tables from previous seasons that would be great if you could link, thank you. I would've linked Coopers and Martins last 30 otherwise, I don't know what either will tell you.
Don't you find it reasonable to compare one seasons 'final product' (the last eight games of the season) and the closest to a 'final product' we have here? I'm being more forgiving to the former in this scenario, no? | | | |
| Russell Martin ‘ I told you we would get better’ We told you too ! on 00:29 - Nov 2 with 593 views | YouBackJastard |
| Russell Martin ‘ I told you we would get better’ We told you too ! on 00:22 - Nov 2 by Dr_Parnassus |
So an accurate like for like PPG comparison with last season is as follows:
First 15 games under Cooper: 1.73
First 15 games under Martin: 1.33
If you wish to use the excuse “Martin was a new manager with new players though”, then when if we compare to the year before where we also had a new manager and new players:
First 15 games of year previous: 1.86 |
I don't remember our season being terribly hit by COVID during Coopers start, and as far as I recall he was given much, much more time. In fact, Cooper was hired on the 13th of June and his first League game was against Hull on the 3rd of August. These are not remotely comparable like you pretend they are. | | | |
| Russell Martin ‘ I told you we would get better’ We told you too ! on 00:29 - Nov 2 with 589 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Russell Martin ‘ I told you we would get better’ We told you too ! on 00:10 - Nov 2 by YouBackJastard |
...why are you so obsessed over our early style? It's evident from several interviews that Martin decided to work on nothing but defense when he came in as he only had very few days he had before Blackburn to train and work with the team, and that showed in the three 0-0 games between Hull, Derby and Millwall. The longer he got with his team, the more he was able to work on the transitional phase and in the end our attacking play (clear evidence from this - our improvement going forward after every single international break) coupled with building fitness has lead to recent results.
If you give it longer than two seconds thought you'd understand what Martin has been building here has not changed. He has not suddenly discovered the fundamentals of football after a few weeks. The 'process' has been extremely clear from the start no matter if you bury your head in the sand and ignore reasonable logic to suit these poor takes. |
Nothing to do with being “obsessed” with it. It’s about being accurate, and the comments people are highlighting now, we’re with regards to that early style. Not this one. It’s a very sly way to try and marry the two together.
This is a simplified version of what this whole thing is about. It’s like a manager putting Piroe in defence and people saying “Piroe will never score regularly when played in defence and needs to be up front”…. We are told “stick with it, he’ll get better, just needs time”.
Weeks of it being awful continue before the manager puts him up front and starts scoring. Instead of admitting those people were right, the narrative becomes “See, told you patience was all that was needed. Look at him scoring now, this was part of the plan all along obviously”.
It’s mind numbingly stupid.
The style he first brought did not work, we have been through this countless times. It was highlighted why it didn’t work and what needed to change. That change was brought in…. And it now starts to work.
It really isn’t rocket science. | |
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| Russell Martin ‘ I told you we would get better’ We told you too ! on 00:36 - Nov 2 with 585 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Russell Martin ‘ I told you we would get better’ We told you too ! on 00:29 - Nov 2 by YouBackJastard |
I don't remember our season being terribly hit by COVID during Coopers start, and as far as I recall he was given much, much more time. In fact, Cooper was hired on the 13th of June and his first League game was against Hull on the 3rd of August. These are not remotely comparable like you pretend they are. |
Each season has its challenges, for various different reasons. But people have to decide why the style of play was so bad when we started out this season.
Was the virus giving us instructions to not go direct at any costs, or was that an instruction from the manager? Assuming it wasn’t the first option, it’s hard to blame Covid for a style of play.
And I most certainly won’t be. | |
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