| Brentford and taking the knee 21:48 - Feb 13 with 11677 views | 1ASIN12 |
Just read this on the bbc
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/56057908
Wonder how it will be received and if more clubs will follow suit or will Brentford have a rethink?
Has the “taking the knee” lost the impact as Brentford have stated .
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| Brentford and taking the knee on 21:53 - Feb 17 with 1586 views | Saintsforeverj |
| Brentford and taking the knee on 21:12 - Feb 17 by Sadoldgit |
You don’t seem to be able to grasp the point that nobody is suggesting that all anybody has to combat racism is to kneel down. Some questions. 1. What harm does it do? 2. Why do people expressing their feelings against racism cause you to spend so much of your time arguing against it?
3. The Kick It Out campaign hasn’t worked so far. Why don’t you argue that it should be cancelled as it isn’t being effective? |
1) Some idiots rebell against it (for attention or whatever) or they interpret it as being lectured to. Call it reverse psychology or the forbidden fruit, only increasing racist incidents. Like you said, "it is increasing daily".
2) People expressing feelings against racism by choice, I strongly support. But footballers are doing it because they were told to. We don't know if they mean it or not. Do you think Souness and co would normally choose to wear a badge and rainbow laces, if they weren't told to? Is it sincere?
3) The kick out campaign did work as since the 80's racism has decreased. Only recently has it increased. Kick it out is more subtle and less forced.
I am strongly against racism, and happen to feel that we should be doing the things that stop it, not the things that don't have any impact. That's it.
[Post edited 18 Feb 2021 7:32]
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| Brentford and taking the knee on 15:16 - Feb 18 with 1479 views | Sadoldgit |
| Brentford and taking the knee on 21:53 - Feb 17 by Saintsforeverj |
1) Some idiots rebell against it (for attention or whatever) or they interpret it as being lectured to. Call it reverse psychology or the forbidden fruit, only increasing racist incidents. Like you said, "it is increasing daily".
2) People expressing feelings against racism by choice, I strongly support. But footballers are doing it because they were told to. We don't know if they mean it or not. Do you think Souness and co would normally choose to wear a badge and rainbow laces, if they weren't told to? Is it sincere?
3) The kick out campaign did work as since the 80's racism has decreased. Only recently has it increased. Kick it out is more subtle and less forced.
I am strongly against racism, and happen to feel that we should be doing the things that stop it, not the things that don't have any impact. That's it.
[Post edited 18 Feb 2021 7:32]
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I really have no idea if people do it because they want to or if they do it because they are told to. I doubt if you do either but suspect that Souness wouldn’t do or wear anything if he wasn’t onside with it. Do you wear a poppy in November? If so do you do it because you want to or because it is expected of you?
Still, we just go around in circles, but I will say finally that the fact that people are still discussing it shows that it is still raising awareness about racism, so it is still doing its job. |  | | |
| Brentford and taking the knee on 19:21 - Feb 18 with 1443 views | Saintsforeverj |
| Brentford and taking the knee on 15:16 - Feb 18 by Sadoldgit |
I really have no idea if people do it because they want to or if they do it because they are told to. I doubt if you do either but suspect that Souness wouldn’t do or wear anything if he wasn’t onside with it. Do you wear a poppy in November? If so do you do it because you want to or because it is expected of you?
Still, we just go around in circles, but I will say finally that the fact that people are still discussing it shows that it is still raising awareness about racism, so it is still doing its job. |
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2021/02/18/wilfried-za
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.rt.com/sport/515486-wilfried-zaha-black-lives-m
Taking the Knee - Degrading says Zaha.
You know you said we should listen to black people and you asked what the harm is, read this from Zaha just come out today. "It's degrading" - that answers question 1 quite well I think. Why should people be forced to do it? He is implying that they have been forced, just as I was saying.
That's from a black person, so we ought to listen like you said? I hear him and good job some people can see the harm that these campaigns are doing - degrading. How awful. Not working says Zaha, and it's also very harmful tokenism. So I agree with him, taking the knee is harmful, degrading, ineffective and we should focus our efforts on robustly stopping the racists. Not both. [Post edited 18 Feb 2021 21:03]
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| Brentford and taking the knee on 21:17 - Feb 18 with 1387 views | DorsetIan |
I think this demonstrates how important it is to have a defined end date for something like this. Or any good cause for that matter. Only because once people acknowledge that something is a good idea, it then becomes hard to say it's not any more.
It reminds me of a story I once heard Martin Clunes tell. He's gone to a party where he was late to arrive and found a stilted atmosphere with everyone sitting round the edge of the room on chairs. As he's the only one standing up he instinctively shakes the hand of the person sitting nearest to him, but then the next person reaches out and he shakes their hand, and then the next, and he ends up having to embarrassingly circumnavigate the entire room shaking everyone's hands. | |
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| Brentford and taking the knee on 21:23 - Feb 18 with 1380 views | Saintsforeverj |
| Brentford and taking the knee on 21:17 - Feb 18 by DorsetIan |
I think this demonstrates how important it is to have a defined end date for something like this. Or any good cause for that matter. Only because once people acknowledge that something is a good idea, it then becomes hard to say it's not any more.
It reminds me of a story I once heard Martin Clunes tell. He's gone to a party where he was late to arrive and found a stilted atmosphere with everyone sitting round the edge of the room on chairs. As he's the only one standing up he instinctively shakes the hand of the person sitting nearest to him, but then the next person reaches out and he shakes their hand, and then the next, and he ends up having to embarrassingly circumnavigate the entire room shaking everyone's hands. |
But does Zaha answer your question as to why some like me, suggest that taking the knee is potentially harmful? We don't want people feeling degraded do we. And as I said it's not real, not sincere, it's pretend - Zaha confirms it! Ticking a box he said. Anyone ever thought for one moment that black people arnt just some box to tick by a load people pretending to care. [Post edited 18 Feb 2021 21:36]
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| Brentford and taking the knee on 23:03 - Feb 18 with 1347 views | DorsetIan |
| Brentford and taking the knee on 21:23 - Feb 18 by Saintsforeverj |
But does Zaha answer your question as to why some like me, suggest that taking the knee is potentially harmful? We don't want people feeling degraded do we. And as I said it's not real, not sincere, it's pretend - Zaha confirms it! Ticking a box he said. Anyone ever thought for one moment that black people arnt just some box to tick by a load people pretending to care. [Post edited 18 Feb 2021 21:36]
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Clearly he doesn't like the symbolism of kneeling down but he does say...
'Zaha, 28, agreed the impact of the protest had diminished since it was introduced following Project Restart.'
and talking about it's impact being 'diminished', I would agree with. And he also says
“I think the meaning behind the whole thing is becoming something that we just do now.
And I would agree with that 'becoming' too.
But his is just one voice among many. The fact that some black players also choose to raise a fist as well as kneeling down would suggest to me that they don't find it so 'degrading'. Are they also 'pretending'? I may be wrong, but I am also assuming that those representing black players as part of the original decision to do this would not have allowed it if there had been a widespread view that it was degrading.
Fact is that there will be different views on everything and strong views both ways. I think there are lots of positives to it. You don't. We both seem to agree it has run it's course. | |
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| Brentford and taking the knee on 23:47 - Feb 18 with 1333 views | Sadoldgit |
| Brentford and taking the knee on 19:21 - Feb 18 by Saintsforeverj |
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2021/02/18/wilfried-za
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.rt.com/sport/515486-wilfried-zaha-black-lives-m
Taking the Knee - Degrading says Zaha.
You know you said we should listen to black people and you asked what the harm is, read this from Zaha just come out today. "It's degrading" - that answers question 1 quite well I think. Why should people be forced to do it? He is implying that they have been forced, just as I was saying.
That's from a black person, so we ought to listen like you said? I hear him and good job some people can see the harm that these campaigns are doing - degrading. How awful. Not working says Zaha, and it's also very harmful tokenism. So I agree with him, taking the knee is harmful, degrading, ineffective and we should focus our efforts on robustly stopping the racists. Not both. [Post edited 18 Feb 2021 21:03]
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Of course we should listen to the people on the sharp end and you have managed to find one person of colour who agrees with you. There may be more. Degrading? His view but if you listen to other black players they don’t mention feeling degraded by it. The point remains that this does not detract from the many other things that are being done to combat racism in football because they are still going on. As I keep saying, as much as you knock it it is still keeping the issue in the public eye.Yes it probably would make sense to have an agreed end date when it started but that didn’t happen. I still don’t understand why you think that it detracts from the message and is generally harmful to the cause. You are going to have to find a lot more than just Zaha to prove your point. If the majority of black players found it degrading do you really think it would have caught in as it did? It’s the abuse which is degrading and that is why the whole thing started in the first place.
I have just read the article that you posted in support of your argument and it says that the PFA and the England manager both feel that it is important that it continues. Perhaps you should take your argument to them?
If the PFA are still supporting it, why do you still insist that players are being “forced” to do it? [Post edited 19 Feb 2021 0:02]
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| Brentford and taking the knee on 00:10 - Feb 19 with 1318 views | Saintsforeverj |
| Brentford and taking the knee on 23:47 - Feb 18 by Sadoldgit |
Of course we should listen to the people on the sharp end and you have managed to find one person of colour who agrees with you. There may be more. Degrading? His view but if you listen to other black players they don’t mention feeling degraded by it. The point remains that this does not detract from the many other things that are being done to combat racism in football because they are still going on. As I keep saying, as much as you knock it it is still keeping the issue in the public eye.Yes it probably would make sense to have an agreed end date when it started but that didn’t happen. I still don’t understand why you think that it detracts from the message and is generally harmful to the cause. You are going to have to find a lot more than just Zaha to prove your point. If the majority of black players found it degrading do you really think it would have caught in as it did? It’s the abuse which is degrading and that is why the whole thing started in the first place.
I have just read the article that you posted in support of your argument and it says that the PFA and the England manager both feel that it is important that it continues. Perhaps you should take your argument to them?
If the PFA are still supporting it, why do you still insist that players are being “forced” to do it? [Post edited 19 Feb 2021 0:02]
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"because I’m not here just to tick boxes". What does Zaha mean by this then? If Zaha isnt being forced, why would he choose to do something he finds degrading? So in answer to your question how do I know players are being forced, well because he wouldn't choose to do a degrading activity would he? Don't you think he would look a bit stupid, saying that an activity he does by choice, is degrading? You seriously think people choose to do things they find degrading? It has been "forced" or "expected" whatever. Some might not mind or want to do it, but many might not. They haven't had a choice, all players had to do it and that's what is wrong. Here is another player unhappy with it. Players used as puppets he says. Puppets meaning being controlled.
https://www.skysports.com/watch/video/sports/football/12222304/players-used-as-p
And just for your interest, using the term "person of colour" is offensive to black people: it's black. [Post edited 19 Feb 2021 8:30]
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| Brentford and taking the knee on 10:10 - Feb 19 with 1246 views | GasGiant |
A few posts ago I ranted about whether the entire excercise was an engineered farce - making gestures to a few thousand extremists who aren't listening anyway. So here's the thing (again). Britain is not the USA. Anyone who has lived and worked in the US will know instantly that it is different. Of course there are racists in this country, always will be some, but the "old style" racists are getting older and their attitudes are not being passed on to our young people, and we had a good trajectory in Britain in schools, in the media and in the agencies of government (police, armed forces) and in politics of making racist thought unacceptable and racist action by commission or omission illegal. We did this partly in the media by tacitly agreeing to inflate minutiae way beyond reason (for instance sacking someone for saying someone is "coloured" rather than "of colour". And the goalposts of acceptability are movable to keep snaring the clumsy, the stupid and the unwary rather than people with old style hate in their hearts. It should be clear that real hard line racial hatred is confined to tiny groups of minimal influence who could barely manage to elect a handful of local councillors in a few northern enclaves and there is little sympathy for their message elsewhere. But there are some who need to keep inflating the race issue by seizing on any minor act or tactless indiscretion and using it to ensure they retain their ticket to power without responsibility, and George Floyd's death is the gift that keeps on giving. I am not saying racism isn't an issue. It has been for years all over the world so we aren't going to become a fully integrated society overnight, but the BLM model requires us to assume that instead of a few thousand bigots we have suddenly created another 5 or 10 million racists out of nowhere who are advancing on and undermining our tolerant society. Anyone who just blithely says we must continue to tackle racism by taking the knee or going on marches or whatever needs to ask themselves where are all these racists in our midst? Don't say twitter or facebook or instagram - that's an insane reason to take any action, let alone this one - no, where are the millions of real actual racists apparently living in our midst? Haven't you noticed that they are always in the next street or the next town or next county, rather than actually in your own neighbourhood? What does that tell you? That the imported US model of institutional racism did not and does not fit British society here and now. That is why, just as others are saying here, taking the knee is a hollow gesture | | | |
| Brentford and taking the knee on 10:22 - Feb 19 with 1241 views | DorsetIan |
| Brentford and taking the knee on 10:10 - Feb 19 by GasGiant |
A few posts ago I ranted about whether the entire excercise was an engineered farce - making gestures to a few thousand extremists who aren't listening anyway. So here's the thing (again). Britain is not the USA. Anyone who has lived and worked in the US will know instantly that it is different. Of course there are racists in this country, always will be some, but the "old style" racists are getting older and their attitudes are not being passed on to our young people, and we had a good trajectory in Britain in schools, in the media and in the agencies of government (police, armed forces) and in politics of making racist thought unacceptable and racist action by commission or omission illegal. We did this partly in the media by tacitly agreeing to inflate minutiae way beyond reason (for instance sacking someone for saying someone is "coloured" rather than "of colour". And the goalposts of acceptability are movable to keep snaring the clumsy, the stupid and the unwary rather than people with old style hate in their hearts. It should be clear that real hard line racial hatred is confined to tiny groups of minimal influence who could barely manage to elect a handful of local councillors in a few northern enclaves and there is little sympathy for their message elsewhere. But there are some who need to keep inflating the race issue by seizing on any minor act or tactless indiscretion and using it to ensure they retain their ticket to power without responsibility, and George Floyd's death is the gift that keeps on giving. I am not saying racism isn't an issue. It has been for years all over the world so we aren't going to become a fully integrated society overnight, but the BLM model requires us to assume that instead of a few thousand bigots we have suddenly created another 5 or 10 million racists out of nowhere who are advancing on and undermining our tolerant society. Anyone who just blithely says we must continue to tackle racism by taking the knee or going on marches or whatever needs to ask themselves where are all these racists in our midst? Don't say twitter or facebook or instagram - that's an insane reason to take any action, let alone this one - no, where are the millions of real actual racists apparently living in our midst? Haven't you noticed that they are always in the next street or the next town or next county, rather than actually in your own neighbourhood? What does that tell you? That the imported US model of institutional racism did not and does not fit British society here and now. That is why, just as others are saying here, taking the knee is a hollow gesture |
I don't mean to be rude but what your post is telling me is that you haven't made too much of an effort to engage with much of what has been written recently by an increasing number of published black writers about the black/immigrant experience in the UK.
In my opinion, to characterise the issue of racism in the UK as just a problem of a few thousand bigots/'old style' racists completely misses the point. It's a complacency about the subtle forms that racism take and how racism operates that is, in my opinion, part of the problem. | |
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| Brentford and taking the knee on 10:30 - Feb 19 with 1238 views | Sadoldgit |
Hollow gesture or not, it is the gesture that is important. As I have said before, this is about racial prejudice not a bunch of blokes kneeling down. Sadly some people prefer to dilute the actual message to make it all about the gesture. The gesture is a very small part of what is going on but you woupdnt know it reading this thread. No, we are not America, but we have our own issues about racial equality and they need dealing with. The Kick It Out campaign and the knee taking are a couple of things being done within the football community to demonstrate that racism is not acceptable. Sadly football seems to attract many of the type who think that is is perfectly acceptable to abuse people because of their racial background. Those who play the sport have chosen to demonstrate that it is not acceptable to them by adopting a certain gesture before matches. Some would have us believe that it is “degrading” despite the fact that the players very own union supported it and continue to do so. Some would have us believe that it is counter productive, as if people saying that racism is wrong somehow produces more racists. All I would say is that it is good that the football community are standing together and saying that enough is enough. For those who get agitated by a few people demonstrating their solidarity for a worthy cause, why does a harmless act both you so much? Perhaps it touches a nerve? | | | |
| Brentford and taking the knee on 10:48 - Feb 19 with 1231 views | Bison |
Without intruding on your lots deep and meaningful debate by old white men trying to solve whats good for our black brethren, the knee thing. When we watch the footy on the telly the kids have started doing it now as a lucky omen before the match , needless to say we will keep doing it until we eventually win a game .
SoGs to make a point and show it's not just posturing you should get a campaign together so everyone entering Tescos should take the knee before their big shop. Might need to get some carpet ends though so as not to get a wet knee. |  |
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| Brentford and taking the knee on 11:30 - Feb 19 with 1219 views | Bazza |
| Brentford and taking the knee on 10:30 - Feb 19 by Sadoldgit |
Hollow gesture or not, it is the gesture that is important. As I have said before, this is about racial prejudice not a bunch of blokes kneeling down. Sadly some people prefer to dilute the actual message to make it all about the gesture. The gesture is a very small part of what is going on but you woupdnt know it reading this thread. No, we are not America, but we have our own issues about racial equality and they need dealing with. The Kick It Out campaign and the knee taking are a couple of things being done within the football community to demonstrate that racism is not acceptable. Sadly football seems to attract many of the type who think that is is perfectly acceptable to abuse people because of their racial background. Those who play the sport have chosen to demonstrate that it is not acceptable to them by adopting a certain gesture before matches. Some would have us believe that it is “degrading” despite the fact that the players very own union supported it and continue to do so. Some would have us believe that it is counter productive, as if people saying that racism is wrong somehow produces more racists. All I would say is that it is good that the football community are standing together and saying that enough is enough. For those who get agitated by a few people demonstrating their solidarity for a worthy cause, why does a harmless act both you so much? Perhaps it touches a nerve? |
It does touch a nerve, the woke nerve that connects to tokenism and inhibits positive anti-racist action. You mention the PFA and the FA, both are fine examples of organisations that say something positive and then do nothing much. | | | |
| Brentford and taking the knee on 11:46 - Feb 19 with 1214 views | DorsetIan |
| Brentford and taking the knee on 11:30 - Feb 19 by Bazza |
It does touch a nerve, the woke nerve that connects to tokenism and inhibits positive anti-racist action. You mention the PFA and the FA, both are fine examples of organisations that say something positive and then do nothing much. |
'the woke nerve that connects to tokenism and inhibits positive anti-racist action'
Yes, because the ridiculous anti-woke movement is all about anti-racism.
The 'anti-woke' thing is just a nice way to dress up reactionary attitudes in the guise of a some sort of free speech concern. | |
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| Brentford and taking the knee on 12:07 - Feb 19 with 1202 views | Sadoldgit |
| Brentford and taking the knee on 11:30 - Feb 19 by Bazza |
It does touch a nerve, the woke nerve that connects to tokenism and inhibits positive anti-racist action. You mention the PFA and the FA, both are fine examples of organisations that say something positive and then do nothing much. |
The Kick It Out campaign was nothing much? Ok.
Going back to gestures, I remember clearly the clench fist “black power” salutes in the 1968 Olympics. It seemed quite an aggressive thing to do for me at the time as a Callie 14 year old. In comparison, taking a knee, although submissive, strikes a more conciliatory note I think. Many years later Tommie Smith explained that it wasn’t meant as a “black power” salute at all but was about human rights, something I see the taking of the knee and the slogan Black Lives Matter to be all about also. For the whites who jump up and down and say don’t our lives matter too, they have clearly completely missed the point. | | | |
| Brentford and taking the knee on 12:15 - Feb 19 with 1199 views | GasGiant |
| Brentford and taking the knee on 10:30 - Feb 19 by Sadoldgit |
Hollow gesture or not, it is the gesture that is important. As I have said before, this is about racial prejudice not a bunch of blokes kneeling down. Sadly some people prefer to dilute the actual message to make it all about the gesture. The gesture is a very small part of what is going on but you woupdnt know it reading this thread. No, we are not America, but we have our own issues about racial equality and they need dealing with. The Kick It Out campaign and the knee taking are a couple of things being done within the football community to demonstrate that racism is not acceptable. Sadly football seems to attract many of the type who think that is is perfectly acceptable to abuse people because of their racial background. Those who play the sport have chosen to demonstrate that it is not acceptable to them by adopting a certain gesture before matches. Some would have us believe that it is “degrading” despite the fact that the players very own union supported it and continue to do so. Some would have us believe that it is counter productive, as if people saying that racism is wrong somehow produces more racists. All I would say is that it is good that the football community are standing together and saying that enough is enough. For those who get agitated by a few people demonstrating their solidarity for a worthy cause, why does a harmless act both you so much? Perhaps it touches a nerve? |
If you can find anything in any of my posts that shows that active anti racism "touches a nerve" ie suggests a degree of racism on my part then either call it out or keep your mouth shut - because the one thing we've managed on this thread is to avoid that refuge of the slow witted - innuendo and insinuation - so don't hover in the shadows ready to throw a racism accusation at me and run away. Your post sounds as though you only consider current status, because one of the main points of my own overlong posts is that when you don't look at the ongoing story story of racial integration and plurality in the UK you strip away all the nuance that informs where we are right now - all the trends, trajectories, degrees, proportionality, context, comparisons - and you are just left with an argument that says we must still continue with an increasingly disproportionate "response" even when the door you are pushing is wide open and there is only one racist left. And if you think people would somehow slip back into racist views if the message is not constantly repeated with these gestures ask yourself does that apply to you as well? If not how are you so enlightened while millions of others apparently are not? | | | |
| Brentford and taking the knee on 12:22 - Feb 19 with 1196 views | DorsetIan |
| Brentford and taking the knee on 12:15 - Feb 19 by GasGiant |
If you can find anything in any of my posts that shows that active anti racism "touches a nerve" ie suggests a degree of racism on my part then either call it out or keep your mouth shut - because the one thing we've managed on this thread is to avoid that refuge of the slow witted - innuendo and insinuation - so don't hover in the shadows ready to throw a racism accusation at me and run away. Your post sounds as though you only consider current status, because one of the main points of my own overlong posts is that when you don't look at the ongoing story story of racial integration and plurality in the UK you strip away all the nuance that informs where we are right now - all the trends, trajectories, degrees, proportionality, context, comparisons - and you are just left with an argument that says we must still continue with an increasingly disproportionate "response" even when the door you are pushing is wide open and there is only one racist left. And if you think people would somehow slip back into racist views if the message is not constantly repeated with these gestures ask yourself does that apply to you as well? If not how are you so enlightened while millions of others apparently are not? |
You appear to think that the issue is largely solved.
Others, while acknowledging that there has been great progress, think that there is still more to be done.
That's a fundamental difference and it's bound to influence what, if anything, you think should happen next. | |
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| Brentford and taking the knee on 12:31 - Feb 19 with 1191 views | Sadoldgit |
| Brentford and taking the knee on 12:15 - Feb 19 by GasGiant |
If you can find anything in any of my posts that shows that active anti racism "touches a nerve" ie suggests a degree of racism on my part then either call it out or keep your mouth shut - because the one thing we've managed on this thread is to avoid that refuge of the slow witted - innuendo and insinuation - so don't hover in the shadows ready to throw a racism accusation at me and run away. Your post sounds as though you only consider current status, because one of the main points of my own overlong posts is that when you don't look at the ongoing story story of racial integration and plurality in the UK you strip away all the nuance that informs where we are right now - all the trends, trajectories, degrees, proportionality, context, comparisons - and you are just left with an argument that says we must still continue with an increasingly disproportionate "response" even when the door you are pushing is wide open and there is only one racist left. And if you think people would somehow slip back into racist views if the message is not constantly repeated with these gestures ask yourself does that apply to you as well? If not how are you so enlightened while millions of others apparently are not? |
No need to be so aggressive. I wasn’t talking about you personally, although something seems to have touched a nerve with you, I was talking about the negative reaction to taking a knee in general.
Don’t you find it strange that we spend so much time arguing about the way some people have chosen to show their attitude against racism and no time at all in discussing what we, as white people with a love of football, can do to help get it out of our sport?
Seriously, what is the major issue here? Racism or a gesture used to highlight and fight racism? It would appear that kneeling down is a more contentious issue given the time we spend arguing about it.
As for you point about “slipping back”. I am old enough to remember when drunk driving was the norm. It took 40 or 50 years of constant reinforcement to hammer home the message that it was socially unacceptable. Some people still think it is ok. It is the same with racism. The message needs to be constantly reinforced so that eventually it becomes socially unacceptable. Sadly you will still get some morons who think it is ok, but we obviously have a very long way to go before we can stop putting out the message. Oh, and I am no more enlightened than the millions you talk about, I am just a normal person sick to death that we are still dealing with racism both overt and closeted in 2021. [Post edited 19 Feb 2021 12:38]
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| Brentford and taking the knee on 13:07 - Feb 19 with 1169 views | Bazza |
| Brentford and taking the knee on 11:46 - Feb 19 by DorsetIan |
'the woke nerve that connects to tokenism and inhibits positive anti-racist action'
Yes, because the ridiculous anti-woke movement is all about anti-racism.
The 'anti-woke' thing is just a nice way to dress up reactionary attitudes in the guise of a some sort of free speech concern. |
'yes because the ridiculous anti-woke movement is all about anti-racism' I think there's one too many anti's in there.
Anyway I understand your point is pro-woke and think anti-woke is reactionary. Maybe by some people. Free speech is important and I personally have found that sadly just saying that promotes a blizzard of woke criticism especially from young people.
Football authorities have a poor record of dealing with racism, homophobia and abusive language. Going to a football match is like taking a step back in time especially compared to other sports. The FA/PFA promoting the knee seems a pathetic token response after years of lost opportunities. | | | |
| Brentford and taking the knee on 13:16 - Feb 19 with 1164 views | GasGiant |
| Brentford and taking the knee on 12:31 - Feb 19 by Sadoldgit |
No need to be so aggressive. I wasn’t talking about you personally, although something seems to have touched a nerve with you, I was talking about the negative reaction to taking a knee in general.
Don’t you find it strange that we spend so much time arguing about the way some people have chosen to show their attitude against racism and no time at all in discussing what we, as white people with a love of football, can do to help get it out of our sport?
Seriously, what is the major issue here? Racism or a gesture used to highlight and fight racism? It would appear that kneeling down is a more contentious issue given the time we spend arguing about it.
As for you point about “slipping back”. I am old enough to remember when drunk driving was the norm. It took 40 or 50 years of constant reinforcement to hammer home the message that it was socially unacceptable. Some people still think it is ok. It is the same with racism. The message needs to be constantly reinforced so that eventually it becomes socially unacceptable. Sadly you will still get some morons who think it is ok, but we obviously have a very long way to go before we can stop putting out the message. Oh, and I am no more enlightened than the millions you talk about, I am just a normal person sick to death that we are still dealing with racism both overt and closeted in 2021. [Post edited 19 Feb 2021 12:38]
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I appreciate your analogy with drink driving because it takes the heat out of the discussion and allows us to use it as a metaphor. Yes quite right, and I agree with you. The difference between us then is simply how far we have come. People do drink and drive but there is not one of them that thinks it is right to do so or doesn't know that the rules are there. That message over the years has sunk in, so all that was needed was the reminder "Don't drink and drive" In the same way I don't think there is anybody who does not know right from wrong when it comes to racism, and those who choose to ignore what we all agree is morally right do so wilfully, so the purpose of the gesture will not tell them anything new - unless they are certifiable they must recognise that their views are reprehensible to the overwhelming majority and outside of a BNP meeting they aren't going to win any support, so right up to that point you me, Ian et al are all on the same side. SFC used to put out the simple message "Racism Just Aint Saintly". The point was made to racists. "You are wrong. We aren't on your side. We don't want you or your views here". I thought that was unequivocal and proportionate. | | | |
| Brentford and taking the knee on 13:57 - Feb 19 with 1146 views | Sadoldgit |
| Brentford and taking the knee on 13:16 - Feb 19 by GasGiant |
I appreciate your analogy with drink driving because it takes the heat out of the discussion and allows us to use it as a metaphor. Yes quite right, and I agree with you. The difference between us then is simply how far we have come. People do drink and drive but there is not one of them that thinks it is right to do so or doesn't know that the rules are there. That message over the years has sunk in, so all that was needed was the reminder "Don't drink and drive" In the same way I don't think there is anybody who does not know right from wrong when it comes to racism, and those who choose to ignore what we all agree is morally right do so wilfully, so the purpose of the gesture will not tell them anything new - unless they are certifiable they must recognise that their views are reprehensible to the overwhelming majority and outside of a BNP meeting they aren't going to win any support, so right up to that point you me, Ian et al are all on the same side. SFC used to put out the simple message "Racism Just Aint Saintly". The point was made to racists. "You are wrong. We aren't on your side. We don't want you or your views here". I thought that was unequivocal and proportionate. |
Frankly GG, whatever anybody does that works or reinforces the message then it gets my vote. I hope that the day will come in my lifetime where we no longer have to talk about it. Progress has been made since the days of the 70’s but the anonymity afforded by various social media platforms has played into the hands of cowardly tw ats who sit in their lounges and dish out abuse with no come back. I expect a number of them arent even racists but just use the terminology because it is an effective form of abuse. Anyway, whittering away won’t get the Tesco’s shop done and I am sorry if it sounded like I was calling you a racist! 😘 | | | |
| Brentford and taking the knee on 14:50 - Feb 19 with 1139 views | DorsetIan |
| Brentford and taking the knee on 13:07 - Feb 19 by Bazza |
'yes because the ridiculous anti-woke movement is all about anti-racism' I think there's one too many anti's in there.
Anyway I understand your point is pro-woke and think anti-woke is reactionary. Maybe by some people. Free speech is important and I personally have found that sadly just saying that promotes a blizzard of woke criticism especially from young people.
Football authorities have a poor record of dealing with racism, homophobia and abusive language. Going to a football match is like taking a step back in time especially compared to other sports. The FA/PFA promoting the knee seems a pathetic token response after years of lost opportunities. |
I am not 'pro-woke'. As far as I can see 'woke' is only ever used in a pejorative context - shorthand for reactionary simpletons to avoid having to talk about the real issues.
The real issues are how best to reduce prejudice and inequality on the one hand, and the limits of free speech on the other.
Labelling liberal progressive views as 'woke' is about as interesting and helpful as labelling all 'conservative' views as 'fascist'. | |
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| Brentford and taking the knee on 16:20 - Feb 19 with 1120 views | Bazza |
| Brentford and taking the knee on 14:50 - Feb 19 by DorsetIan |
I am not 'pro-woke'. As far as I can see 'woke' is only ever used in a pejorative context - shorthand for reactionary simpletons to avoid having to talk about the real issues.
The real issues are how best to reduce prejudice and inequality on the one hand, and the limits of free speech on the other.
Labelling liberal progressive views as 'woke' is about as interesting and helpful as labelling all 'conservative' views as 'fascist'. |
Didn't you recently ask someone not to be aggressive! Pot and kettle.
I'll agree not to call you woke then but don't label someone you disagree with as a 'simpleton'. You've no idea who you're talking to; I could be a brain surgeon or a shelf stacker. So show a little respect if only as a fellow Saints addict.
Liberal progressive mm! | | | |
| Brentford and taking the knee on 16:21 - Feb 19 with 1120 views | GasGiant |
| Brentford and taking the knee on 13:57 - Feb 19 by Sadoldgit |
Frankly GG, whatever anybody does that works or reinforces the message then it gets my vote. I hope that the day will come in my lifetime where we no longer have to talk about it. Progress has been made since the days of the 70’s but the anonymity afforded by various social media platforms has played into the hands of cowardly tw ats who sit in their lounges and dish out abuse with no come back. I expect a number of them arent even racists but just use the terminology because it is an effective form of abuse. Anyway, whittering away won’t get the Tesco’s shop done and I am sorry if it sounded like I was calling you a racist! 😘 |
No need S.O.G we are good - and violently agreeing with each other in a stimulating debate. I think everyone on here comes from a good place. Have a good one. | | | |
| Brentford and taking the knee on 16:44 - Feb 19 with 1110 views | Sadoldgit |
| Brentford and taking the knee on 16:20 - Feb 19 by Bazza |
Didn't you recently ask someone not to be aggressive! Pot and kettle.
I'll agree not to call you woke then but don't label someone you disagree with as a 'simpleton'. You've no idea who you're talking to; I could be a brain surgeon or a shelf stacker. So show a little respect if only as a fellow Saints addict.
Liberal progressive mm! |
If you are a brain surgeon Bazza, could you sort me out a transplant please? Mine is in need of repair. If on the other hand, you are a shelf stacker, could you please sort out the lack of self bake olive ciabattas at Tescos in Park Farm? They are always sold out.Ta! | | | |
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