| FLA March Today 22:00 - Oct 7 with 18277 views | Rangersw12 |
Anyone from here go ?
Decent turn out from Rangers and a very peaceful march considering must have been 15k + |  | | |  |
| FLA March Today on 19:12 - Oct 10 with 2435 views | BromleyHoop |
| FLA March Today on 15:50 - Oct 10 by BrianMcCarthy |
Good post, Snipper.
You've nailed it when you say that the left-wing of today are often too consumed in identity politics than policies - "he's a racist", "she's a billionaire capitalist, "he's homophobic" etc.
Likewise, the right are often too consumed in beating the left and feeling sorry for themselves because PC has ruined their lives.
Meanwhile, while the populous is consumed with minutiae such as the above, Governments of both hues continue wars in the Middle East without even the remotest chance that they themselves will die in either the wars themselves or the terrorism that are their inevitable consequence. They delegate the dying to others.
It seems to me that marching against terrorism, though well-intentioned, is aimless and airy-fairy. It may even stoke up more hatred in the country you wish to protect and drive more people to take up arms on either side, thus prolonging and intensifying both the wars and the terrorism.
I personally think that the only march that might achieve anything is one on the government to demand that it withdraw from the Middle East already, which is, let's face it, the only thing that will stop the terrorism. |
I have to say I strongly disagree with your last sentence. It is a common mantra of left leaning, self flagulating Westerners that the problems of the Middle East are the West’s fault. This is not the case. There is Islamic fundamentalist terrorism committed in Nigeria, Phillipines, and several other countries that have n3ver set foot anywhere near the ME. Let’s also not forget the regular atrocities committed against Shia’s by Sunni’s and by Sunni’s against Shia’s. |  |
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| FLA March Today on 19:52 - Oct 10 with 2383 views | Ranger_Things |
| FLA March Today on 19:12 - Oct 10 by BromleyHoop |
I have to say I strongly disagree with your last sentence. It is a common mantra of left leaning, self flagulating Westerners that the problems of the Middle East are the West’s fault. This is not the case. There is Islamic fundamentalist terrorism committed in Nigeria, Phillipines, and several other countries that have n3ver set foot anywhere near the ME. Let’s also not forget the regular atrocities committed against Shia’s by Sunni’s and by Sunni’s against Shia’s. |
Flog some merchandise and a day out for Internet Casuals.
The message may differ from the EDL but it's the same business plan. |  | | |
| FLA March Today on 20:00 - Oct 10 with 2371 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| FLA March Today on 19:12 - Oct 10 by BromleyHoop |
I have to say I strongly disagree with your last sentence. It is a common mantra of left leaning, self flagulating Westerners that the problems of the Middle East are the West’s fault. This is not the case. There is Islamic fundamentalist terrorism committed in Nigeria, Phillipines, and several other countries that have n3ver set foot anywhere near the ME. Let’s also not forget the regular atrocities committed against Shia’s by Sunni’s and by Sunni’s against Shia’s. |
Yes, I agree with you. Let me phrase it better - if Britain withdraws from the Middle East the wars may continue but Britain will stop being a target. |  |
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| FLA March Today on 20:04 - Oct 10 with 2363 views | Brightonhoop |
| FLA March Today on 22:22 - Oct 9 by Lblock |
What?
You mean the 4th summer of love has arrived in Autumn?!?! Damn!
Give it a house beat, some repeteitve lyrics and a smattering of Gary Abletts and it'll be 1989 all over again.
(May I direct you to another thread covering this in initimate detail......  ) |
Ha! 4th summer of love, unlikely in our lifetimes but we can live in hope.
Still interesting it was achieved without Mr Gary A.
Point of order '88, wasn't there but it reached a west End club and people refused to leave at 'closing time' (imagine that, how quaint, Clubs with closing times...) and when the filth threw them all out they refused to leave the streets too and just danced. Old Bill didn't know what to do. haha. Grew from there having been a norvern t'ing. |  | | |
| FLA March Today on 20:39 - Oct 10 with 2307 views | CiderwithRsie |
| FLA March Today on 20:00 - Oct 10 by BrianMcCarthy |
Yes, I agree with you. Let me phrase it better - if Britain withdraws from the Middle East the wars may continue but Britain will stop being a target. |
I'm afraid not. France Belgium and Spain have all been the targets of attacks despite keeping out of the Middle East. Especially notable in the case of the 2004 Madrid train bombings. Back in August there was even an attack in Finland of all places.
There are plenty good reasons for wanting Britain out of involvement in Middle-Eastern wars - not least that it's none of our effing business - but Jihadists will attack Britain anyway because they see all western countries as the same. We would have stopped being a target for the IRA if we had withdrawn from NI, but that's because while the IRA (and of course the UDA et al) were vile they were sort of rationale - Jihadists just aren't. And let's face it the fact that we used to run half the place as part of the British Empire probably hasn't been forgotten.
Ireland would/will be a target too if they ever get the chance or think it will get them headlines. | | | |
| FLA March Today on 20:52 - Oct 10 with 2285 views | BromleyHoop |
| FLA March Today on 20:00 - Oct 10 by BrianMcCarthy |
Yes, I agree with you. Let me phrase it better - if Britain withdraws from the Middle East the wars may continue but Britain will stop being a target. |
Brian, I promise I’m not singling you out but I’m afraid I disagree with you again! Islamic fundamentalists will attack the West regardless of wether we are militarily involved in the Middle East or not or wether we have been in recent history. They dislike secular democracy, Christianity (I’m partially with them on that one) and Western liberal values. | |
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| FLA March Today on 20:57 - Oct 10 with 2273 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| FLA March Today on 20:39 - Oct 10 by CiderwithRsie |
I'm afraid not. France Belgium and Spain have all been the targets of attacks despite keeping out of the Middle East. Especially notable in the case of the 2004 Madrid train bombings. Back in August there was even an attack in Finland of all places.
There are plenty good reasons for wanting Britain out of involvement in Middle-Eastern wars - not least that it's none of our effing business - but Jihadists will attack Britain anyway because they see all western countries as the same. We would have stopped being a target for the IRA if we had withdrawn from NI, but that's because while the IRA (and of course the UDA et al) were vile they were sort of rationale - Jihadists just aren't. And let's face it the fact that we used to run half the place as part of the British Empire probably hasn't been forgotten.
Ireland would/will be a target too if they ever get the chance or think it will get them headlines. |
France was part of of the US-led coalition, though, as was Spain logistically and Ireland - as you rightly say - could also be a target as it has opened up its airports to US troops. Don't know anything about Finland or Belgium, to be honest.
I agree that nowhere is completely safe, especially as ISIS seems to be far from cohesive in its thinking and organisation, but pulling out of the Middle East would make Britain a far safer place, surely. | |
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| FLA March Today on 20:59 - Oct 10 with 2267 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| FLA March Today on 20:52 - Oct 10 by BromleyHoop |
Brian, I promise I’m not singling you out but I’m afraid I disagree with you again! Islamic fundamentalists will attack the West regardless of wether we are militarily involved in the Middle East or not or wether we have been in recent history. They dislike secular democracy, Christianity (I’m partially with them on that one) and Western liberal values. |
No hassle, Bromley.
See my answer below. Chat later. | |
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| FLA March Today on 21:32 - Oct 10 with 2206 views | MrSheen |
| FLA March Today on 20:57 - Oct 10 by BrianMcCarthy |
France was part of of the US-led coalition, though, as was Spain logistically and Ireland - as you rightly say - could also be a target as it has opened up its airports to US troops. Don't know anything about Finland or Belgium, to be honest.
I agree that nowhere is completely safe, especially as ISIS seems to be far from cohesive in its thinking and organisation, but pulling out of the Middle East would make Britain a far safer place, surely. |
France wasn't, Spain was. Both attacked. Italy and Poland were, neither attacked after, though Italy was attacked in the 1980s. Germany and Sweden weren't, both attacked. It's not as simple as you make out. |  | | |
| FLA March Today on 22:39 - Oct 10 with 2166 views | Brightonhoop |
| FLA March Today on 21:32 - Oct 10 by MrSheen |
France wasn't, Spain was. Both attacked. Italy and Poland were, neither attacked after, though Italy was attacked in the 1980s. Germany and Sweden weren't, both attacked. It's not as simple as you make out. |
Italy has been attacked since, and has foiled many attempts succesfully. Attackers from Germany have also escaed into Italy heading for safe houses. They're also exposed on the south from migration, a route isis use to Malta and into Italy from Libya.
Spain was, as you say, which formed Rumsfelds notorious 'old Europe' slur on France and Germany for not joining the fray in Iraq without UN Resolutions in place, and fell into dissaray after the Madrid train bombings on the eve of their National Elections, the right wing accusing ETA. The new left Spanish Gov then pulled out and Bush said the Spanish PM would never be invited to the White House whilst he was President and weren't. It's really simple, we're all a target, even other muslims. They dont care who they kill. Lots of sleeper cells ready to go as we saw in Barcelona recently. | | | |
| FLA March Today on 07:58 - Oct 11 with 2034 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| FLA March Today on 21:32 - Oct 10 by MrSheen |
France wasn't, Spain was. Both attacked. Italy and Poland were, neither attacked after, though Italy was attacked in the 1980s. Germany and Sweden weren't, both attacked. It's not as simple as you make out. |
No, I honestly wasn't trying to over-simplify it but I think it's fairly clear that being in the Middle-East increases the chances of terrorist attacks and withdrawal would lessen them, though maybe not stop them altogether, granted.
Incidentally, the French have been involved in the bombings as have Belgium. | |
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| FLA March Today on 08:26 - Oct 11 with 2001 views | Dorse |
| FLA March Today on 22:39 - Oct 10 by Brightonhoop |
Italy has been attacked since, and has foiled many attempts succesfully. Attackers from Germany have also escaed into Italy heading for safe houses. They're also exposed on the south from migration, a route isis use to Malta and into Italy from Libya.
Spain was, as you say, which formed Rumsfelds notorious 'old Europe' slur on France and Germany for not joining the fray in Iraq without UN Resolutions in place, and fell into dissaray after the Madrid train bombings on the eve of their National Elections, the right wing accusing ETA. The new left Spanish Gov then pulled out and Bush said the Spanish PM would never be invited to the White House whilst he was President and weren't. It's really simple, we're all a target, even other muslims. They dont care who they kill. Lots of sleeper cells ready to go as we saw in Barcelona recently. |
Two types of people in the world: people who will use any excuse to be dick and people who actively choose not to.
There is no direct connection between being a dick to other people and having a faith; in the same way as having no faith doesn't automatically make you a non-dick. A good example is when Grenfell happened: dicks in government outed; non-dicks elsewhere step up, whether organised through churches, mosques, synagogues, mandirs, gurdwaras or simply everyday decent folk who've never had a religious thought in their lives but have a definite faith in humankind. Not dicks.
Bombers, hate speakers of all stripes, people that fund all of the above etc are clearly dicks. The people that went on the march? It's pretty clear that some of them are but it doesn't have to apply to all of them. |  |
| 'What do we want? We don't know! When do we want it? Now!' |
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| FLA March Today on 09:14 - Oct 11 with 1969 views | isawqpratwcity |
| FLA March Today on 07:58 - Oct 11 by BrianMcCarthy |
No, I honestly wasn't trying to over-simplify it but I think it's fairly clear that being in the Middle-East increases the chances of terrorist attacks and withdrawal would lessen them, though maybe not stop them altogether, granted.
Incidentally, the French have been involved in the bombings as have Belgium. |
While British and French antagonism to Islam can easily be traced back to the Crusades, I think the wheels really fell off during and after WWl. It suited us to encourage indepence in the Middle East because it caused problems for our enemy, the dominant Muslim nation in the region, the Ottoman Empire.
With victory, we chose to renege on our promises of indepence and instead Britain and France carved up the region into countries of either British or French influence under the Sykes-Picot agreement. This involved drawing long straight borders on a map with scant regard for previous national or ethnic divsions. Add a century of economic exploitation as the world came to depend upon oil, and we have an explosive mix.
This isn't some left-wing breast beating, we can't undo the damage we've done. For that reason I don't think taking a policy of complete non-interference in the Middle East would reduce our terrorist threat greatly. Radical Islamic terrorism is more about gaining power and control than redressing grievances.
Nor do I think we have any particular prohibition to stay out of Middle Eastern affairs. Gulf War number one was indeed an unashamed and (imo) justified 'oil war'. Sadam Hussein deliberately made a play to become the biggest player in the oil market and his takedown was legitimately warranted because he attempted it by force. The mistake was not finishing the job first time around (worse, Bush snr incited anti-Hussein factions to rise up and then did nothing to aid them while a still-strong Hussein crushed internal opposition).
Afghanistan was also a reasonable intervention after 9/11 and the Taliban's unashamed giving aid and comfort to Bin Laden. It was just a mistake not to have an endgame strategy.
Gulf War number two was the shocker. It was a nakedly opportunistic attempt to correct a decade-old mistake of leaving a tyrant in place, completely unjustified by the evidence of the time. Personally, I also think this was Oil War number two, an intended and largely successful rationalisation of the oil market to suit Western Powers.
We can't undo past mistakes. I just hope we can make better decisions in the future. Meanwhile, the threat of radical Islamic terrorism is a fact of modern life, although an exaggerated one. Alienating and oppressing the broad and moderate Muslim community is a disastrous strategy, though, and must be resisted. |  |
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| FLA March Today on 13:09 - Oct 11 with 1874 views | FDC |
| FLA March Today on 08:26 - Oct 11 by Dorse |
Two types of people in the world: people who will use any excuse to be dick and people who actively choose not to.
There is no direct connection between being a dick to other people and having a faith; in the same way as having no faith doesn't automatically make you a non-dick. A good example is when Grenfell happened: dicks in government outed; non-dicks elsewhere step up, whether organised through churches, mosques, synagogues, mandirs, gurdwaras or simply everyday decent folk who've never had a religious thought in their lives but have a definite faith in humankind. Not dicks.
Bombers, hate speakers of all stripes, people that fund all of the above etc are clearly dicks. The people that went on the march? It's pretty clear that some of them are but it doesn't have to apply to all of them. |
The Dick Thesis. I actually think the world is better understood via analysis of class interests and power structures, although I'll concede there's no accounting for random dicks.
Edit: which is a fairly standard 'left' position - I don't recognise Brian's claim about identity politics at all to be honest. [Post edited 11 Oct 2017 13:10]
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| FLA March Today on 14:36 - Oct 11 with 1801 views | NW5Hoop |
| FLA March Today on 21:32 - Oct 10 by MrSheen |
France wasn't, Spain was. Both attacked. Italy and Poland were, neither attacked after, though Italy was attacked in the 1980s. Germany and Sweden weren't, both attacked. It's not as simple as you make out. |
France, however, has been making air strikes against Isis since 2014 … | | | |
| FLA March Today on 14:55 - Oct 11 with 1783 views | LythamR |
| FLA March Today on 09:14 - Oct 11 by isawqpratwcity |
While British and French antagonism to Islam can easily be traced back to the Crusades, I think the wheels really fell off during and after WWl. It suited us to encourage indepence in the Middle East because it caused problems for our enemy, the dominant Muslim nation in the region, the Ottoman Empire.
With victory, we chose to renege on our promises of indepence and instead Britain and France carved up the region into countries of either British or French influence under the Sykes-Picot agreement. This involved drawing long straight borders on a map with scant regard for previous national or ethnic divsions. Add a century of economic exploitation as the world came to depend upon oil, and we have an explosive mix.
This isn't some left-wing breast beating, we can't undo the damage we've done. For that reason I don't think taking a policy of complete non-interference in the Middle East would reduce our terrorist threat greatly. Radical Islamic terrorism is more about gaining power and control than redressing grievances.
Nor do I think we have any particular prohibition to stay out of Middle Eastern affairs. Gulf War number one was indeed an unashamed and (imo) justified 'oil war'. Sadam Hussein deliberately made a play to become the biggest player in the oil market and his takedown was legitimately warranted because he attempted it by force. The mistake was not finishing the job first time around (worse, Bush snr incited anti-Hussein factions to rise up and then did nothing to aid them while a still-strong Hussein crushed internal opposition).
Afghanistan was also a reasonable intervention after 9/11 and the Taliban's unashamed giving aid and comfort to Bin Laden. It was just a mistake not to have an endgame strategy.
Gulf War number two was the shocker. It was a nakedly opportunistic attempt to correct a decade-old mistake of leaving a tyrant in place, completely unjustified by the evidence of the time. Personally, I also think this was Oil War number two, an intended and largely successful rationalisation of the oil market to suit Western Powers.
We can't undo past mistakes. I just hope we can make better decisions in the future. Meanwhile, the threat of radical Islamic terrorism is a fact of modern life, although an exaggerated one. Alienating and oppressing the broad and moderate Muslim community is a disastrous strategy, though, and must be resisted. |
We have meddled, plotted and interfered continuously, funding and arming one faction and then another depending on how it has seemed to suit our own political and economic strategies, by we I dont just mean the UK, the US other european powers including Russia are all to blame to varying degrees.
The Genie is well out of the bottle now but would it not be a start if we stopped our continued funding, training and arming of these factions.
Part of the problem is that the interests of the people in general, to live in peace and relative security are at odds with the governments and their puppet masters the industrialists, armaments manufacturers and bankers. |  | | |
| FLA March Today on 18:43 - Oct 11 with 1686 views | BromleyHoop |
| FLA March Today on 14:55 - Oct 11 by LythamR |
We have meddled, plotted and interfered continuously, funding and arming one faction and then another depending on how it has seemed to suit our own political and economic strategies, by we I dont just mean the UK, the US other european powers including Russia are all to blame to varying degrees.
The Genie is well out of the bottle now but would it not be a start if we stopped our continued funding, training and arming of these factions.
Part of the problem is that the interests of the people in general, to live in peace and relative security are at odds with the governments and their puppet masters the industrialists, armaments manufacturers and bankers. |
So, after the battle against ISIS is over and the Iraqis and Turks start shelling and slaughtering the Kurdish people what would you suggest the West does? | |
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| FLA March Today on 18:55 - Oct 11 with 1674 views | LythamR |
| FLA March Today on 18:43 - Oct 11 by BromleyHoop |
So, after the battle against ISIS is over and the Iraqis and Turks start shelling and slaughtering the Kurdish people what would you suggest the West does? |
Stop providing them with the means to do so would be a start. Not a total solution but a step in the right direction, otherwise it never ends | | | |
| FLA March Today on 19:15 - Oct 11 with 1658 views | BromleyHoop |
| FLA March Today on 18:55 - Oct 11 by LythamR |
Stop providing them with the means to do so would be a start. Not a total solution but a step in the right direction, otherwise it never ends |
Ok. That’s a long term objective. What do you do when they start using the weapons and ordnance they currently have to kill tens of thousands of civilians who have done more than anyone to defeat IS?
Non intervention and Isolationism are I’m afraid no longer options for the world we live in now. I wish they were but they’re not.
How far have we gone off road with this thread??? | |
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| FLA March Today on 19:55 - Oct 11 with 1614 views | LythamR |
| FLA March Today on 19:15 - Oct 11 by BromleyHoop |
Ok. That’s a long term objective. What do you do when they start using the weapons and ordnance they currently have to kill tens of thousands of civilians who have done more than anyone to defeat IS?
Non intervention and Isolationism are I’m afraid no longer options for the world we live in now. I wish they were but they’re not.
How far have we gone off road with this thread??? |
Proper UN peacekeeping initiative combined with Sanctions to the same level as is being applied to North Korea with a view to forcing both Turkey and Iraq to allow the formation of a new Kurdistan
I am ok with sending our troops in as part of a UN force. I am not happy with arming both sides for profit while perpetuating the misery of civilian populations to the benefit of shareholders.
Thats a protest march I would be happy to go on | | | |
| FLA March Today on 21:02 - Oct 11 with 1554 views | BromleyHoop |
| FLA March Today on 19:55 - Oct 11 by LythamR |
Proper UN peacekeeping initiative combined with Sanctions to the same level as is being applied to North Korea with a view to forcing both Turkey and Iraq to allow the formation of a new Kurdistan
I am ok with sending our troops in as part of a UN force. I am not happy with arming both sides for profit while perpetuating the misery of civilian populations to the benefit of shareholders.
Thats a protest march I would be happy to go on |
Sadly the UN just doesn’t seem to be up to it these days. I also get the impression that Govts see it as a bit of an irrelevance. | |
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