| The Pound 13:57 - Sep 24 with 100722 views | Stanmiguel |
Well, the money markets didn't like the mini budget.
I met Liz Truss in a hotel in Monmouth a few years ago.
She said her solution to pensioner poverty would be to feed them on Pedigree Chum.
Not only would this save a lot of money, it would give them shiny coats and a nice cold nose. |  | | |  |
| The Pound on 14:49 - Oct 4 with 2882 views | SheffieldHoop |
| The Pound on 14:16 - Oct 4 by Sonofpugwash |
That's more like it,back to civility hopefully..
I should point out that there's an increase in visits by Our Shiny Boys in Blue,unwarranted searches and seizure of electronic equipment,all due to alleged "insulting messages" on social media and an objection lodged.
Please be very careful from now on. |
It's fine; I've got Lawrence Fox hiding out in my garage, ready to stream the whole thing live on Facebook. |  |
| "Someone despises me. That's their problem." Marcus Aurelius |
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| The Pound on 16:27 - Oct 4 with 2732 views | derbyhoop |
| The Pound on 14:49 - Oct 4 by SheffieldHoop |
It's fine; I've got Lawrence Fox hiding out in my garage, ready to stream the whole thing live on Facebook. |
Lawrence Fox, FFS.
I pity you. |  |
| "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the Earth all one's lifetime." (Mark Twain)
Find me on twitter @derbyhoop and now on Bluesky |
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| The Pound on 16:41 - Oct 4 with 2673 views | SheffieldHoop |
Uh Oh - Here come the DaneHoop/DerbyHoop aliases - Can either of you provide evidence that you're not just Bazza on a VPN? - Otherwise, I cannot possibly reply "in good faith"
I pity people who claim they care about the poor but then celebrate the devaluation of our currency. Evidently, the truth is they don't give a single shit about the poor, their true motivation is always jealousy of those who have a bit more than them. | |
| "Someone despises me. That's their problem." Marcus Aurelius |
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| The Pound on 16:42 - Oct 4 with 2696 views | Ranger_Things |
| The Pound on 14:49 - Oct 4 by SheffieldHoop |
It's fine; I've got Lawrence Fox hiding out in my garage, ready to stream the whole thing live on Facebook. |
I don’t judge but there is a time and a place. This is a football forum not Onlyfans. [Post edited 4 Oct 2022 16:53]
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| The Pound on 16:54 - Oct 4 with 2662 views | hubble |
Back to the original topic, I think there's a fundamental misunderstanding about fiat currencies here; they are, by their very nature, inflationary. And this is the underlying problem with the way all Western economies are now run; because currencies are no longer tethered to gold* all currencies lose value over time, and because banks can literally make money up out of nothing - and constantly do, when they loan money to anyone (it's not based on reserves) - and of course there's the dark art of 'quantitative easing', then the amount of 'money' in the system increases, year on year (I recently read a weighted average of an annual 14% increase in the amount of money in the global economies per year over the last 50 years), meaning fiat currencies can never be a reliable store of value. This means people no longer save money - what's the point? And if you have a society that runs on almost constant credit, then long-term, you're not only asking for trouble, but also creating a society that is uneasy and uncertain of itself, without a solid vested interest in the future, leading to constant short-term fixes, like QE and price controls and so on that only spiral into ever more debt.
All the short-term stuff discussed here - BoE interventions, interest rate changes etc. etc. are basically fiddling while Rome burns. But, and it's a very significant but, banks absolutely love fiat, because it means endless profits for them. For years now, governments have been in thrall to banks, whereas of course it should be the other way around; money is fundamentally a utility, an essential element of any functioning society, and therefore it should never be in the hands of private, profiteering and secretive institutions who operate outside of the normal laws of society.
*there's nothing else in the physical realm like gold, that's why until recently it was such an excellent store of value and the perfect standard, its main problems now, for modern economies, are lack of portability and slow verification. There is, ironically, a solution in plain sight, and that is bitcoin. I am well aware of the hostility towards bitcoin on this site and in the mainstream, but as far as I can see this comes from a serious lack of understanding about how it works and why it's actually an ideal store of value for the modern age. Just to identify the key reasons why it has such great potential as the new 'gold standard': impossible to counterfeit; deflationary - there will only be a finite number of coins mined; transparent blockchain - transactions cannot be fraudulent (and blockchain tech is ideal for transparent administrations, public accountability, etc.), easy and fast to verify, easy and fast exchanges globally. Someone will now harp on about it using a huge amount of energy, but this is a misleading argument; ALL tech uses vast amounts of energy and pretty much all currency is already digital - physical cash now amounts to about 20% of the money in the system. |  |
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| The Pound on 17:00 - Oct 4 with 2638 views | wood_hoop |
| The Pound on 13:56 - Oct 4 by SheffieldHoop |
Back on topic - The £ is now back at $1.14 - Higher than it was when this thread was started. No comments from the usual mob who were so delighted to see the country being made poorer last week. |
Have read this thread with great interest. I am not the brightest bulb on the tree, and has the BoE printing out £65 Billion helped or am I misreading the dosh they pumped out ? |  | | |
| The Pound on 17:37 - Oct 4 with 2562 views | JimmyR |
| The Pound on 17:00 - Oct 4 by wood_hoop |
Have read this thread with great interest. I am not the brightest bulb on the tree, and has the BoE printing out £65 Billion helped or am I misreading the dosh they pumped out ? |
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| The Pound on 17:46 - Oct 4 with 2542 views | R_from_afar |
| The Pound on 13:56 - Oct 4 by SheffieldHoop |
Back on topic - The £ is now back at $1.14 - Higher than it was when this thread was started. No comments from the usual mob who were so delighted to see the country being made poorer last week. |
The people to whom you are referring - some of whom may even be Tory voters because there is no way all those on the right are happy with how Truss et al are carrying on - may not like the current regime but I doubt they will be "delighted".
After all, if the country suffers, they suffer too through hits on their pension, their mortgage etc...
I don't like this government but I'd far rather they succeed than fail. I have seen what damage failing has done to my pension and retirement prospects in the last two weeks and it is pretty significant.
With two years to go until the next general election, I doubt either my finances or any other UK based posters' can take this government continuing to fail.
Whatever our politics, we really need them to get it right or we will be faced with a situation so desperate that it will not get fixed in the lifetime of many people on here, whichever party is in charge in the future. |  |
| "Things had started becoming increasingly desperate at Loftus Road but QPR have been handed a massive lifeline and the place has absolutely erupted. it's carnage. It's bedlam. It's 1-1." |
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| The Pound on 18:26 - Oct 4 with 2447 views | Sakura |
| The Pound on 16:54 - Oct 4 by hubble |
Back to the original topic, I think there's a fundamental misunderstanding about fiat currencies here; they are, by their very nature, inflationary. And this is the underlying problem with the way all Western economies are now run; because currencies are no longer tethered to gold* all currencies lose value over time, and because banks can literally make money up out of nothing - and constantly do, when they loan money to anyone (it's not based on reserves) - and of course there's the dark art of 'quantitative easing', then the amount of 'money' in the system increases, year on year (I recently read a weighted average of an annual 14% increase in the amount of money in the global economies per year over the last 50 years), meaning fiat currencies can never be a reliable store of value. This means people no longer save money - what's the point? And if you have a society that runs on almost constant credit, then long-term, you're not only asking for trouble, but also creating a society that is uneasy and uncertain of itself, without a solid vested interest in the future, leading to constant short-term fixes, like QE and price controls and so on that only spiral into ever more debt.
All the short-term stuff discussed here - BoE interventions, interest rate changes etc. etc. are basically fiddling while Rome burns. But, and it's a very significant but, banks absolutely love fiat, because it means endless profits for them. For years now, governments have been in thrall to banks, whereas of course it should be the other way around; money is fundamentally a utility, an essential element of any functioning society, and therefore it should never be in the hands of private, profiteering and secretive institutions who operate outside of the normal laws of society.
*there's nothing else in the physical realm like gold, that's why until recently it was such an excellent store of value and the perfect standard, its main problems now, for modern economies, are lack of portability and slow verification. There is, ironically, a solution in plain sight, and that is bitcoin. I am well aware of the hostility towards bitcoin on this site and in the mainstream, but as far as I can see this comes from a serious lack of understanding about how it works and why it's actually an ideal store of value for the modern age. Just to identify the key reasons why it has such great potential as the new 'gold standard': impossible to counterfeit; deflationary - there will only be a finite number of coins mined; transparent blockchain - transactions cannot be fraudulent (and blockchain tech is ideal for transparent administrations, public accountability, etc.), easy and fast to verify, easy and fast exchanges globally. Someone will now harp on about it using a huge amount of energy, but this is a misleading argument; ALL tech uses vast amounts of energy and pretty much all currency is already digital - physical cash now amounts to about 20% of the money in the system. |
May 2020 when the price of Bitcoin was $9,000 NorthernR sarcastically May 18th 2020 said on the infamous Corona thread:
"Just so I'm all caught up after the weekend - we're converting
our savings to cryptocurrency and arming ourselves to the
teeth?"
Putting aside the wars that were predicted then which have occurred and are escalating it’s almost as if his provably inaccurate usually political opinions usually inserted into a Rangers match report mean there is more than one poster on this board who's arrogant style is infuriating for others...
Since that typically arrogant and dismissive statement of his Bitcoin multiplied by 7. Since it's 'crash' it's 120% higher than when he laughed at others for backing it on the basis of points you are now touching on Hubble
Cheapest Bitcoin I ever bought was £290 worth pointing out so you are preaching to the choir Hubble
Ethereum I am a big fan of also has had an interesting path since then. Doing about a 24x from 200 to 4,809 and now about 6 times about that at 1,300. It now also doesn't have the energy issue. Has it's long term security problem solved (Bitcoin does not when the 21m total is reached). But I agree with your sentiment it's flexibility and actually inherent lack of wastefulness means it loses hard monetary properties
Bitcoins wastefulness with energy is actually a good signalling system in the same way a diamond engagement ring is three months wages even though you couldn' without a trained eye distinguish that from a 50p fake
We are i would say possibly near the bottom. Absolute worse case another 50% off that bottom but found to 10x minimum from there by 2025 so I would appreciate if you could save your shilling till then so we can dump on them then. I thank you [Post edited 4 Oct 2022 18:30]
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| The Pound on 18:47 - Oct 4 with 2421 views | hubble |
| The Pound on 18:26 - Oct 4 by Sakura |
May 2020 when the price of Bitcoin was $9,000 NorthernR sarcastically May 18th 2020 said on the infamous Corona thread:
"Just so I'm all caught up after the weekend - we're converting
our savings to cryptocurrency and arming ourselves to the
teeth?"
Putting aside the wars that were predicted then which have occurred and are escalating it’s almost as if his provably inaccurate usually political opinions usually inserted into a Rangers match report mean there is more than one poster on this board who's arrogant style is infuriating for others...
Since that typically arrogant and dismissive statement of his Bitcoin multiplied by 7. Since it's 'crash' it's 120% higher than when he laughed at others for backing it on the basis of points you are now touching on Hubble
Cheapest Bitcoin I ever bought was £290 worth pointing out so you are preaching to the choir Hubble
Ethereum I am a big fan of also has had an interesting path since then. Doing about a 24x from 200 to 4,809 and now about 6 times about that at 1,300. It now also doesn't have the energy issue. Has it's long term security problem solved (Bitcoin does not when the 21m total is reached). But I agree with your sentiment it's flexibility and actually inherent lack of wastefulness means it loses hard monetary properties
Bitcoins wastefulness with energy is actually a good signalling system in the same way a diamond engagement ring is three months wages even though you couldn' without a trained eye distinguish that from a 50p fake
We are i would say possibly near the bottom. Absolute worse case another 50% off that bottom but found to 10x minimum from there by 2025 so I would appreciate if you could save your shilling till then so we can dump on them then. I thank you [Post edited 4 Oct 2022 18:30]
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Not sure if it's fair to say here that I bought BTC in 2010 when it was a tenner... but I did. (Lucky punt I guess! Sold most of it now though... )
But I did start a long thread on crypto on the infamous (!) WATRB in 2013 when BTC was around the £300 mark... | |
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| The Pound on 19:01 - Oct 4 with 2404 views | distortR |
| The Pound on 11:48 - Oct 4 by JimmyR |
I agree, what you have described has been dubbed Rentier Capitalism, there’s a good book on it called the trouble with markets. Basically the trouble is, turns out, they don’t work efficiently if the top5/10% hold all the assets and are able to influence policy/regulations/rules, distort the market if their favour basically
If you are earning 100-125k then you can get your personal allowance back by contributing the 25k over 100k into a pension and get 40% tax relief on it plus your 12.5 PA back, this is tax relief effectively of 60%. So as you say could well be cost neutral on HRT
But benefits/state pensions are almost certainly going to have to be cut to get anywhere near the tax cuts proposed, those in recipient of these benefits tend to spend them. So this will reduce aggregate demand at a time when aggregate supply has already taken a hit due to supply chain/covid.
Releasing all this info and saying we will give you the specifics of saving 60/70bn in November & no we won’t release the OBR report is unbelievable really |
'The Corruption of Capitalism' by Guy Standing is my one book on this subject. Like most non-fiction books I acquire, I read the intro, have every intention................and then end up with Sharpe, Aubrey etc, foiling Napoleon's plans! | | | |
| The Pound on 13:24 - Oct 5 with 2118 views | traininvain |
| The Pound on 13:03 - Oct 5 by Northernr |
Well that's the last time I go out of my way to stick up for you  |
I reckon he’s your alter ego and it’s a double bluff to convince us all otherwise |  | | |
| The Pound on 14:14 - Oct 5 with 2035 views | Sonofpugwash |
| The Pound on 18:26 - Oct 4 by Sakura |
May 2020 when the price of Bitcoin was $9,000 NorthernR sarcastically May 18th 2020 said on the infamous Corona thread:
"Just so I'm all caught up after the weekend - we're converting
our savings to cryptocurrency and arming ourselves to the
teeth?"
Putting aside the wars that were predicted then which have occurred and are escalating it’s almost as if his provably inaccurate usually political opinions usually inserted into a Rangers match report mean there is more than one poster on this board who's arrogant style is infuriating for others...
Since that typically arrogant and dismissive statement of his Bitcoin multiplied by 7. Since it's 'crash' it's 120% higher than when he laughed at others for backing it on the basis of points you are now touching on Hubble
Cheapest Bitcoin I ever bought was £290 worth pointing out so you are preaching to the choir Hubble
Ethereum I am a big fan of also has had an interesting path since then. Doing about a 24x from 200 to 4,809 and now about 6 times about that at 1,300. It now also doesn't have the energy issue. Has it's long term security problem solved (Bitcoin does not when the 21m total is reached). But I agree with your sentiment it's flexibility and actually inherent lack of wastefulness means it loses hard monetary properties
Bitcoins wastefulness with energy is actually a good signalling system in the same way a diamond engagement ring is three months wages even though you couldn' without a trained eye distinguish that from a 50p fake
We are i would say possibly near the bottom. Absolute worse case another 50% off that bottom but found to 10x minimum from there by 2025 so I would appreciate if you could save your shilling till then so we can dump on them then. I thank you [Post edited 4 Oct 2022 18:30]
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Sorry but if it don't scratch a window it ain't money. |  |
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| The Pound on 14:38 - Oct 5 with 1988 views | Sakura |
| The Pound on 18:47 - Oct 4 by hubble |
Not sure if it's fair to say here that I bought BTC in 2010 when it was a tenner... but I did. (Lucky punt I guess! Sold most of it now though... )
But I did start a long thread on crypto on the infamous (!) WATRB in 2013 when BTC was around the £300 mark... |
Didn't think it had made it as high as that in 2010
Anyway, cycle repeats. Joe Rogan was laughing at Bitcoin on his podcast this week. He first had one of the most respected people in this space on his podcast talking about it in 2014 when it had just reached its then all time high of $500
So him now laughing at it at 19/20k is a good sign for where we are in the cycle 😅 | | | |
| The Pound on 14:40 - Oct 5 with 1986 views | Sakura |
| The Pound on 14:14 - Oct 5 by Sonofpugwash |
Sorry but if it don't scratch a window it ain't money. |
I must remember that when I next go to the bar and it’s card only. Cannot give them money then I cannot pay. Cheers | | | |
| The Pound on 14:47 - Oct 5 with 1969 views | Sonofpugwash |
| The Pound on 14:40 - Oct 5 by Sakura |
I must remember that when I next go to the bar and it’s card only. Cannot give them money then I cannot pay. Cheers |
And how many pints can you quaff when your card is declined?
"Bitcoin?That'll do nicely" [Post edited 5 Oct 2022 14:53]
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| The Pound on 14:52 - Oct 5 with 1961 views | colinallcars |
I can remember when people would bite a coin to see if it was genuine. |  | | |
| The Pound on 14:56 - Oct 5 with 1948 views | CroydonCaptJack |
| The Pound on 14:52 - Oct 5 by colinallcars |
I can remember when people would bite a coin to see if it was genuine. |
So was that then a bit coin? |  | | |
| The Pound on 14:58 - Oct 5 with 1932 views | danehoop |
| The Pound on 14:52 - Oct 5 by colinallcars |
I can remember when people would bite a coin to see if it was genuine. |
The same time that dentists were very busy and presumably rich people. |  |
| Never knowingly understood |
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| The Pound on 15:12 - Oct 5 with 1887 views | Sakura |
| The Pound on 14:47 - Oct 5 by Sonofpugwash |
And how many pints can you quaff when your card is declined?
"Bitcoin?That'll do nicely" [Post edited 5 Oct 2022 14:53]
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I'm not arguing it's widely used as money yet. It's a speculative store of value. Lots of the reasons Hubble touches on our £ is becoming increasingly worthless
Bitcoin has a very liquid market. Weekly spot trading volume is around $10 billion a day in current bear market. I can sell on my Coinbase or binance app instantly or I can sell OTC in a few mins. Then instantly move this cash into my current account
Could do this for as small amount as a fiver (not that gets you a pint in many places now days) or tens of thousands no problem with little if any slippage.
Good luck doing that with gold. Maybe could hope the barman has a spectrometer and the tools to somehow carve off your £6.55 worth of gold that you've been lugging round with you.
But we I think we agree the £‘s trend is to become increasingly less valuable | | | |
| The Pound on 19:08 - Oct 5 with 1601 views | Sonofpugwash |
| The Pound on 15:12 - Oct 5 by Sakura |
I'm not arguing it's widely used as money yet. It's a speculative store of value. Lots of the reasons Hubble touches on our £ is becoming increasingly worthless
Bitcoin has a very liquid market. Weekly spot trading volume is around $10 billion a day in current bear market. I can sell on my Coinbase or binance app instantly or I can sell OTC in a few mins. Then instantly move this cash into my current account
Could do this for as small amount as a fiver (not that gets you a pint in many places now days) or tens of thousands no problem with little if any slippage.
Good luck doing that with gold. Maybe could hope the barman has a spectrometer and the tools to somehow carve off your £6.55 worth of gold that you've been lugging round with you.
But we I think we agree the £‘s trend is to become increasingly less valuable |
Not gold,silver. Some coins are affordable legal tender come the meltdown.
"Bitcoin has a very liquid market.",very good. 
When you're converting to cash,please be aware of CGT. | |
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| The Pound on 14:27 - Oct 6 with 1317 views | R_from_afar |
| The Pound on 21:15 - Oct 3 by Sakura |
I agree we need to develop our own fossil fuel projects where possible. Truss' licensing round a good start
You have hit on a core point of the green lobby on some of your nuclear criticisms. Impose as many regulations as possible to make it expensive as possible or impose negatives on alternatives. Restrict their funding access while encouraging and subsiding alternatives as much as possible
Of course France did alter this when it was needed...Aug 8 (Reuters) - "France's nuclear power regulator has extended temporary waivers allowing five power stations to continue discharging hot water into rivers"
The last time UK built a reservoir was in 1991 so maybe it's about time we did that. Rain is not something we are short of
Labour say 70% will be wind and solar. But they will need to have ready 100% of energy at any one time from not being wind or solar in case it is dark or too windy or not windy enough then we have no wind power. If it's not sunny then we don't have solar power as the grid can't rely on battery power there. Not even remotely close
For Essox, Vestas are the largest wind turbine manufacturer in the world. They are a Danish company but they have huge operations in China. Production will occur where there is cheap energy. The subsidised coal powered plants of China are more appealing
Also to really think about energy security you need to think about the rare Earth minerals needed. Same when you consider environmental impacts as it's a massive impact in extracting those minerals
Copper has many uses for society. If we try to expand the need for it with wind power to that extent the prices will rocket. As will the other rare Earth minerals that must be sourced abroad. Like the tungsten carbide drill bits needed for the blast holes through hard rock. Predominately made in China where they will rely on coal power stations for such an energy intensive process.
Consider to the ammonium nitrate needed for blasting in copper mining is also needed through fossil fuels. So saying Denmark are the leader. Consider the chain and where the work is actually done. The copper is just one aspect
The out of sight out of mind of environmental damage related to solar and wind. The lack of understanding of the availability of the rare Earth minerals needed and what Can and will happen to their prices as the supply demand trend continues
Particularly useful is the Resolution mine in Arizona example. This being one of the largest undeveloped copper projects in the world and of course it's being protested to not be developed by Green movement. Pretty funny really. As over their that would make the green industry more viable and give more value to the energy security argument
Instead they are suppressing development in countries with more strict environmental controls and instead let it get mined in countries that don't have regulatory protections in place like the US does
This all links back into the pound as we don't have energy security in this country. The Lib Dems particularly to blame there for preventing fracking and stopping new nuclear that would be online by now. Also Tory's push to try and get green leaning voters. So we need to buy a product priced in dollars buy printing around £130 billion this year potentially. That increase in money supply for that purpose devalues our currency
The well intentioned confusion I see on here is because people mix this up with being an electricity crisis and it's not it's an energy crisis. Natural gas is used at cogeneration plants to at industrial chemcial facilities (look at Bayers problems in Germany), it's used to make fertiliser (our last plant in country recently shut down) it's used
Payback period of 6 weeks for nuclear and 4 years for solar. The Americans have just blown up Nordsteam 1 and 2 not that you see potentially the biggest story of the year getting coverage much over in our MSM
Also, why don't the environmentalists push for a hydrogen economy around nuclear. I have my suspicions around who discourages that.
We could use hydrogen combustion engines to power our vehicles. Start with water use the electriliser powered by a nuclear power plant and get rid of vehicle related CO2 emissions. The technology for this exists. We use internal combustion engines to burn that hydrogen back to water. So we don't need to extract all these precious metals out of the ground and the harmful processes that entails
But big business and aims of centralised control can't work if we do that
(BBC Panorma tonight on the topic of how green our renewable really are) [Post edited 3 Oct 2022 21:17]
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Responses interleaved below...
WARNING! Contains points of agreement: Viewer discretion advised!
I agree we need to develop our own fossil fuel projects where possible. Truss' licensing round a good start
>>But the way licences are handed out means even if we make more of our fossil fuels available for extraction, private companies will be able to sell the stuff to whoever they choose, so, not necessarily to the UK
You have hit on a core point of the green lobby on some of your nuclear criticisms. Impose as many regulations as possible to make it expensive as possible or impose negatives on alternatives. Restrict their funding access while encouraging and subsiding alternatives as much as possible
>> The "green lobby" would need to have a House of Commons majority to impose regulations such as those you mention.
>> Fossil fuels have always been subsidised multiples more than renewables. As for nuclear subsidies, the government just stumped up £100m to make Sizewell C more attractive to EDF. We paid £50m just to build a wall round Hinckley C, ironically to protect it from the world’s second highest tidal range. Hmm, I wonder how we could’ve put that huge tidal range to use…
Of course France did alter this when it was needed...Aug 8 (Reuters) - "France's nuclear power regulator has extended temporary waivers allowing five power stations to continue discharging hot water into rivers"
The last time UK built a reservoir was in 1991 so maybe it's about time we did that. Rain is not something we are short of
>> A very good point about the reservoirs, although I believe one has just been finished somewhere in the south east. Now, if we just create some pairs of reservoirs - one higher than the other - we would have the potential to build more pumped storage energy solutions.
Labour say 70% will be wind and solar. But they will need to have ready 100% of energy at any one time from not being wind or solar in case it is dark or too windy or not windy enough then we have no wind power. If it's not sunny then we don't have solar power as the grid can't rely on battery power there. Not even remotely close
>> There are solar power stations in operation now which store energy in molten salt and provide power during the hours of darkness. Solar panels work when it is cloudy, mine have literally been doing that today, although unobstructed sunlight is obviously better. Wind energy and solar energy can also be "stored" by pumping water uphill. The Canary Island of El Hierro does this. Battery storage has also moved on a lot, this vanadium flow battery is already grid-connected and can supply enough juice for 200,000 people!
https://newatlas.com/energy/worlds-largest-flow-battery-grid-china/
For Essox, Vestas are the largest wind turbine manufacturer in the world. They are a Danish company but they have huge operations in China. Production will occur where there is cheap energy. The subsidised coal powered plants of China are more appealing
>> But this is true about most manufactured goods. That said, I would rather we manufactured as much stuff as possible in the UK, using green energy.
Also to really think about energy security you need to think about the rare Earth minerals needed. Same when you consider environmental impacts as it's a massive impact in extracting those minerals
>> Green energy and green products should really be called greener not green because it is virtually impossible to manufacture anything which is perfectly green. I know lithium mining is a dirty process in most cases but so is fossil fuel extraction. Have you seen the tar sands? Bear in mind too that lithium is used in a vast range of devices, including 'phones, laptops, power tools, toothbrushes...
Copper has many uses for society. If we try to expand the need for it with wind power to that extent the prices will rocket. As will the other rare Earth minerals that must be sourced abroad. Like the tungsten carbide drill bits needed for the blast holes through hard rock. Predominately made in China where they will rely on coal power stations for such an energy intensive process.
>> Copper is used for lots of applications, like electronic components and wiring. Using it to provide green energy, with its attendant climate, clean air and energy security benefits, is a good application.
>> As I said above, I would prefer the UK to source as many things as possible from local manufacturers, but on the subject of the Chinese, they part own our Hinckley C and Sizewell C nuclear power stations.
Consider to the ammonium nitrate needed for blasting in copper mining is also needed through fossil fuels. So saying Denmark are the leader. Consider the chain and where the work is actually done. The copper is just one aspect
The out of sight out of mind of environmental damage related to solar and wind. The lack of understanding of the availability of the rare Earth minerals needed and what Can and will happen to their prices as the supply demand trend continues
>> I would accept that solar and wind have environmental downsides but they are outweighed by the upsides. The manufacturing processes could certainly be made greener.
>> As with everything, security of supply needs to be looked at but rare earth metals have very broad applications which are in no way limited to “green” stuff. I started looking at those applications, working down the Wikipedia list and, as a taster, we have:
- Scandium: Radioactive tracing agent in oil refineries
- Yttrium: Metal alloys used in jet engines
- Lanthanum: Fluid catalytic cracking catalyst for oil refineries
NB: I know there are other rare earth metals, I went down the Wikipedia list in the order it appeared
Particularly useful is the Resolution mine in Arizona example. This being one of the largest undeveloped copper projects in the world and of course it's being protested to not be developed by Green movement. Pretty funny really. As over their that would make the green industry more viable and give more value to the energy security argument
>> Good point, that is ironic. One thing I have learned from writing this screed is that many materials are used in products and processes which would never occur to most people, including of course me.
Instead they are suppressing development in countries with more strict environmental controls and instead let it get mined in countries that don't have regulatory protections in place like the US does
>> Yes, this is an issue. The west has historically tended to outsource a lot of the dirty and carbon-intensive manufacturing to far-flung lands.
This all links back into the pound as we don't have energy security in this country. The Lib Dems particularly to blame there for preventing fracking and stopping new nuclear that would be online by now. Also Tory's push to try and get green leaning voters. So we need to buy a product priced in dollars buy printing around £130 billion this year potentially. That increase in money supply for that purpose devalues our currency
The well intentioned confusion I see on here is because people mix this up with being an electricity crisis and it's not it's an energy crisis. Natural gas is used at cogeneration plants to at industrial chemcial facilities (look at Bayers problems in Germany), it's used to make fertiliser (our last plant in country recently shut down) it's used
Payback period of 6 weeks for nuclear and 4 years for solar. The Americans have just blown up Nordsteam 1 and 2 not that you see potentially the biggest story of the year getting coverage much over in our MSM
>> Where did you get those payback figures? As an example, Hinckley C will cost between £25-26bn, we surely can’t recoup those costs in six weeks.
>> I agree that the Nordstream 1 and 2 thing is major news, but I don’t think there is any proof that it was the US.
Also, why don't the environmentalists push for a hydrogen economy around nuclear. I have my suspicions around who discourages that.
We could use hydrogen combustion engines to power our vehicles. Start with water use the electriliser powered by a nuclear power plant and get rid of vehicle related CO2 emissions. The technology for this exists. We use internal combustion engines to burn that hydrogen back to water. So we don't need to extract all these precious metals out of the ground and the harmful processes that entails
>> I don’t have anything against hydrogen but I think the current lack of a broad distribution network, and cost of creating one, is playing against it, as is the momentum in the electric vehicle market. I think hydrogen probably makes sense for point to point transport of freight, so, where it’s point a to point b and there is no need for a large number of hydrogen depots.
But big business and aims of centralised control can't work if we do that
(BBC Panorma tonight on the topic of how green our renewable really are)
>> I didn’t see it but I think it was about the Drax power station and its use of imported wood. The plant is supposed to use waste products but the operators have been found to be cutting down primary forests in Canada. I totally agree, that is not green, it’s madness! | |
| "Things had started becoming increasingly desperate at Loftus Road but QPR have been handed a massive lifeline and the place has absolutely erupted. it's carnage. It's bedlam. It's 1-1." |
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| The Pound on 14:55 - Oct 6 with 1275 views | Sonofpugwash |
| The Pound on 14:27 - Oct 6 by R_from_afar |
Responses interleaved below...
WARNING! Contains points of agreement: Viewer discretion advised!
I agree we need to develop our own fossil fuel projects where possible. Truss' licensing round a good start
>>But the way licences are handed out means even if we make more of our fossil fuels available for extraction, private companies will be able to sell the stuff to whoever they choose, so, not necessarily to the UK
You have hit on a core point of the green lobby on some of your nuclear criticisms. Impose as many regulations as possible to make it expensive as possible or impose negatives on alternatives. Restrict their funding access while encouraging and subsiding alternatives as much as possible
>> The "green lobby" would need to have a House of Commons majority to impose regulations such as those you mention.
>> Fossil fuels have always been subsidised multiples more than renewables. As for nuclear subsidies, the government just stumped up £100m to make Sizewell C more attractive to EDF. We paid £50m just to build a wall round Hinckley C, ironically to protect it from the world’s second highest tidal range. Hmm, I wonder how we could’ve put that huge tidal range to use…
Of course France did alter this when it was needed...Aug 8 (Reuters) - "France's nuclear power regulator has extended temporary waivers allowing five power stations to continue discharging hot water into rivers"
The last time UK built a reservoir was in 1991 so maybe it's about time we did that. Rain is not something we are short of
>> A very good point about the reservoirs, although I believe one has just been finished somewhere in the south east. Now, if we just create some pairs of reservoirs - one higher than the other - we would have the potential to build more pumped storage energy solutions.
Labour say 70% will be wind and solar. But they will need to have ready 100% of energy at any one time from not being wind or solar in case it is dark or too windy or not windy enough then we have no wind power. If it's not sunny then we don't have solar power as the grid can't rely on battery power there. Not even remotely close
>> There are solar power stations in operation now which store energy in molten salt and provide power during the hours of darkness. Solar panels work when it is cloudy, mine have literally been doing that today, although unobstructed sunlight is obviously better. Wind energy and solar energy can also be "stored" by pumping water uphill. The Canary Island of El Hierro does this. Battery storage has also moved on a lot, this vanadium flow battery is already grid-connected and can supply enough juice for 200,000 people!
https://newatlas.com/energy/worlds-largest-flow-battery-grid-china/
For Essox, Vestas are the largest wind turbine manufacturer in the world. They are a Danish company but they have huge operations in China. Production will occur where there is cheap energy. The subsidised coal powered plants of China are more appealing
>> But this is true about most manufactured goods. That said, I would rather we manufactured as much stuff as possible in the UK, using green energy.
Also to really think about energy security you need to think about the rare Earth minerals needed. Same when you consider environmental impacts as it's a massive impact in extracting those minerals
>> Green energy and green products should really be called greener not green because it is virtually impossible to manufacture anything which is perfectly green. I know lithium mining is a dirty process in most cases but so is fossil fuel extraction. Have you seen the tar sands? Bear in mind too that lithium is used in a vast range of devices, including 'phones, laptops, power tools, toothbrushes...
Copper has many uses for society. If we try to expand the need for it with wind power to that extent the prices will rocket. As will the other rare Earth minerals that must be sourced abroad. Like the tungsten carbide drill bits needed for the blast holes through hard rock. Predominately made in China where they will rely on coal power stations for such an energy intensive process.
>> Copper is used for lots of applications, like electronic components and wiring. Using it to provide green energy, with its attendant climate, clean air and energy security benefits, is a good application.
>> As I said above, I would prefer the UK to source as many things as possible from local manufacturers, but on the subject of the Chinese, they part own our Hinckley C and Sizewell C nuclear power stations.
Consider to the ammonium nitrate needed for blasting in copper mining is also needed through fossil fuels. So saying Denmark are the leader. Consider the chain and where the work is actually done. The copper is just one aspect
The out of sight out of mind of environmental damage related to solar and wind. The lack of understanding of the availability of the rare Earth minerals needed and what Can and will happen to their prices as the supply demand trend continues
>> I would accept that solar and wind have environmental downsides but they are outweighed by the upsides. The manufacturing processes could certainly be made greener.
>> As with everything, security of supply needs to be looked at but rare earth metals have very broad applications which are in no way limited to “green” stuff. I started looking at those applications, working down the Wikipedia list and, as a taster, we have:
- Scandium: Radioactive tracing agent in oil refineries
- Yttrium: Metal alloys used in jet engines
- Lanthanum: Fluid catalytic cracking catalyst for oil refineries
NB: I know there are other rare earth metals, I went down the Wikipedia list in the order it appeared
Particularly useful is the Resolution mine in Arizona example. This being one of the largest undeveloped copper projects in the world and of course it's being protested to not be developed by Green movement. Pretty funny really. As over their that would make the green industry more viable and give more value to the energy security argument
>> Good point, that is ironic. One thing I have learned from writing this screed is that many materials are used in products and processes which would never occur to most people, including of course me.
Instead they are suppressing development in countries with more strict environmental controls and instead let it get mined in countries that don't have regulatory protections in place like the US does
>> Yes, this is an issue. The west has historically tended to outsource a lot of the dirty and carbon-intensive manufacturing to far-flung lands.
This all links back into the pound as we don't have energy security in this country. The Lib Dems particularly to blame there for preventing fracking and stopping new nuclear that would be online by now. Also Tory's push to try and get green leaning voters. So we need to buy a product priced in dollars buy printing around £130 billion this year potentially. That increase in money supply for that purpose devalues our currency
The well intentioned confusion I see on here is because people mix this up with being an electricity crisis and it's not it's an energy crisis. Natural gas is used at cogeneration plants to at industrial chemcial facilities (look at Bayers problems in Germany), it's used to make fertiliser (our last plant in country recently shut down) it's used
Payback period of 6 weeks for nuclear and 4 years for solar. The Americans have just blown up Nordsteam 1 and 2 not that you see potentially the biggest story of the year getting coverage much over in our MSM
>> Where did you get those payback figures? As an example, Hinckley C will cost between £25-26bn, we surely can’t recoup those costs in six weeks.
>> I agree that the Nordstream 1 and 2 thing is major news, but I don’t think there is any proof that it was the US.
Also, why don't the environmentalists push for a hydrogen economy around nuclear. I have my suspicions around who discourages that.
We could use hydrogen combustion engines to power our vehicles. Start with water use the electriliser powered by a nuclear power plant and get rid of vehicle related CO2 emissions. The technology for this exists. We use internal combustion engines to burn that hydrogen back to water. So we don't need to extract all these precious metals out of the ground and the harmful processes that entails
>> I don’t have anything against hydrogen but I think the current lack of a broad distribution network, and cost of creating one, is playing against it, as is the momentum in the electric vehicle market. I think hydrogen probably makes sense for point to point transport of freight, so, where it’s point a to point b and there is no need for a large number of hydrogen depots.
But big business and aims of centralised control can't work if we do that
(BBC Panorma tonight on the topic of how green our renewable really are)
>> I didn’t see it but I think it was about the Drax power station and its use of imported wood. The plant is supposed to use waste products but the operators have been found to be cutting down primary forests in Canada. I totally agree, that is not green, it’s madness! |
Silver is more necessary than copper - an inordinate amount needed for future solar panels and nuclear warheads.
We have to rely on current supplies since it's not economical to dig the stuff out of the ground due to Comex restrictions.Musk owns a silver mine and has interest else where - Tesla gobbles up loads of silver.
You try and get it in quantity though,even major companies like Bullion By Post are struggling.All you get are the "out of stock" "awaiting stock" messages.Everybody going into tangibles,there's a very wealthy lady(Texas billionairess) in the States ordered 90,000 Siver Eagles as part of a billion Dollar order.She ordered them off Miles Franklin but they could only supply half of them so the poor dear had to make do with gold and second hand silver.
By law the States have to produce 5million Silver Eagles per year but have
struggled to make half of that this time.In fact the US Mint has allegedly made the announcement they're not going to be making any more of that marque - ever.
There's a storm brewing. | |
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