| Not in a disrespectful way, far from it - Three years with Warbs on 15:31 - May 11 with 3087 views | PlanetHonneywood |
Very well balanced and leaves the reader who either agrees or disagrees with his departure, fully informed of what the other side of the equation as it were.
I think we’re again at a crossroads…I fear we might not be ‘equipped’ to choose and traverse the road ahead. |  |
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| Not in a disrespectful way, far from it - Three years with Warbs on 15:45 - May 11 with 3050 views | TheChef |
| Not in a disrespectful way, far from it - Three years with Warbs on 14:26 - May 11 by THEBUSH |
Excellent article, as usual. I think you explained your position, regarding MW plainly.
My position initially was to stick with him, but knowing what Ive read recently, I think it was correct, not to renew his contract.
In his interviews, I always felt there was no fun, in what he was doing, which is a shame. |
Hmmm yes while he always presented himself in the media very professionally and respectfully (sorry), it did feel like a bit of a façade, that you couldn't really get to know the real Warburton. Does he have a sense of humour? Is he maybe a bit too earnest and did that grate with the players?
We will never know... |  |
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| Not in a disrespectful way, far from it - Three years with Warbs on 19:24 - May 11 with 2806 views | stainrods_elbow |
| Not in a disrespectful way, far from it - Three years with Warbs on 15:45 - May 11 by TheChef |
Hmmm yes while he always presented himself in the media very professionally and respectfully (sorry), it did feel like a bit of a façade, that you couldn't really get to know the real Warburton. Does he have a sense of humour? Is he maybe a bit too earnest and did that grate with the players?
We will never know... |
We may never know for sure, sure, but we can speculate (as WLS, Clive and lots of others have been doing in recent days re the 'behind the scenes' picture). It seems clear at least that, in the last three months of his tenure, MW wasn't getting his message over to the players while continuing to praise them to the skies to the bitter end. The bottom line is that we had the play-offs in our sights all season and f*cked it up something horrible then blamed losing one or two players (and, OK, more goalkeepers than you could shake Keith Stroud's white stick at) to cover our blushes - see the tellingly over determined anger in that late post-match interview after the Sheff United game when a journalist asks a reasonable quesiton as to why we couldn't match the opponent's intensity. That was when I (and quite possibly the Board) could see his goose was cooked. We were missing Dieng, Barbet and Dickie, but what about Johansen, Adomah, Field, Dunne, Austin and Chair? And so it goes on. The players stepped down or couldn't cope when the going got tough, and this happened in game after game. That either shows the coaching team lost their way, the players aren't good or committed enough, or - most worryingly - both.
As for Warbs, it's reasonable to infer the two things were/are connected. If, just once, he'd agreed Charlie needs to get better and fitter, or Jojo had to exert more influence on games, or asked why Dickie had stopped making forays from the back, rather than relentlessly wrapping them in cotton wool to the fanbase, Nick London and other media, could this really have led to a worse outcome than it did? The game has got so wrapped up with 'protecting' players (both their bodies and egos) it's becoming sickening. Read Pat Nevin's biography on playing big games on consecutive days and doing extra training on his own to help make himself the best, who, before the snowflakes start fluttering around my ears, is still walking around with mind and body in decent shape as far as I know. Quite honestly, apart from his many good qualities, Warburton needs to learn how to use the rough end of his tongue in public, reel in the platitudes and evolve his style or methods to deal with injuries and downturns, while Eustace is so bland he could make tofu look like the spicy menu option. In many ways, Warburton reminds me of Ray Wilkins - gentlemanly, cultured, and serious. I like that grace in its place, but, as with Super Ray, it isn't necessarily a winning recipe when it comes to the cut and thrust of football management.
Whoever now comes in I'd like him to be stern, sharp, demanding, charismatic and above all ambitious - I'm thinking Tommy Docherty meets Neil Warnock, with a tasty sprinkle of Sexton-esque progressive coaching influence (the one thing MW seemed to bring to the party, though you'd not have known it when things started to go south). Is he out there? I don't know, but I'm not paid to know. However, reality begins in imagining, fantasising and knowing what you want and why you want it. Whether people like it or not, I suspect there are people in positions at the club who are not unequivocal about wanting promotion, popularity and success. Our CEO can't even organise POY events, charges us a stupid sum to put the name of a former employee on a stand infinitely more important to many QPR fans than his petty administrator's mind could understand, or sell tickets properly for games. His head would probably explode if we entered the Premiership.
Treat the above as a bit of polemic and a few well-chosen brickbats, if you will, as I'm as upset as anyone with the outcome. Some will get my drift, while the above mentioned snowflakes can settle themselves in a drift of their own making. (Like Wendy James, I don't care.) [Post edited 11 May 2022 22:33]
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| Not in a disrespectful way, far from it - Three years with Warbs on 20:16 - May 11 with 2792 views | ed_83 |
Think this might be one of the best things you’ve ever written, Clive. Fascinatingly detailed, scrupulously fair in assessing the positive and negatives of Warburton’s time here, hilarious in parts and heartfelt in others. Completely agree with your overall judgment on the last three years, really hope it’s not a decision we come to regret. |  | | |
| Not in a disrespectful way, far from it - Three years with Warbs on 21:02 - May 11 with 2720 views | MungoJezza |
| Not in a disrespectful way, far from it - Three years with Warbs on 15:28 - May 11 by DannytheR |
But is that point not a little undermined by one of the people you're talking about being an absolute disaster and laughing stock, whose decision-making while manager not only failed to take the club forwards, but actually damaged it even after he left? (And who hasn't managed another club since.) |
Granted, McLaren's spell as manager was a complete car crash, but he has been successful at other clubs and been widely recognised as a good coach of young players (Man Utd for example).
The fact that successive managers have decided to adopt a similar approach to using (or better not using) Academy players suggests that they're not impressed with the quality of these players, and that Ramsey and others are not doing a particularly good job or the club are simply not recruiting enough young players that have what it takes to play football at this level. | | | |
| Not in a disrespectful way, far from it - Three years with Warbs on 21:36 - May 11 with 2675 views | OldPedro |
| Not in a disrespectful way, far from it - Three years with Warbs on 21:02 - May 11 by MungoJezza |
Granted, McLaren's spell as manager was a complete car crash, but he has been successful at other clubs and been widely recognised as a good coach of young players (Man Utd for example).
The fact that successive managers have decided to adopt a similar approach to using (or better not using) Academy players suggests that they're not impressed with the quality of these players, and that Ramsey and others are not doing a particularly good job or the club are simply not recruiting enough young players that have what it takes to play football at this level. |
I guess one question might be, what percentage of young players actually make it at senior level generally (not just at QPR). The big clubs such as Man City hoover up 100's of youngsters, but how many of them actually go on to have a professional career? |  |
| Extra mature cheddar......a simple cheese for a simple man |
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| Not in a disrespectful way, far from it - Three years with Warbs on 21:44 - May 11 with 2646 views | nix |
Brilliant article Clive: balanced and fair. Excellently well researched reminders of what got us to where we are now.
For what it's worth, I'll miss him too.
I hope we won't regret it as much as I fear we will. |  | | |
| Not in a disrespectful way, far from it - Three years with Warbs on 23:08 - May 11 with 2543 views | colinallcars |
A towering article - thank you Clive. |  | | |
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| Not in a disrespectful way, far from it - Three years with Warbs on 08:16 - May 12 with 2368 views | R_from_afar |
| Not in a disrespectful way, far from it - Three years with Warbs on 19:24 - May 11 by stainrods_elbow |
We may never know for sure, sure, but we can speculate (as WLS, Clive and lots of others have been doing in recent days re the 'behind the scenes' picture). It seems clear at least that, in the last three months of his tenure, MW wasn't getting his message over to the players while continuing to praise them to the skies to the bitter end. The bottom line is that we had the play-offs in our sights all season and f*cked it up something horrible then blamed losing one or two players (and, OK, more goalkeepers than you could shake Keith Stroud's white stick at) to cover our blushes - see the tellingly over determined anger in that late post-match interview after the Sheff United game when a journalist asks a reasonable quesiton as to why we couldn't match the opponent's intensity. That was when I (and quite possibly the Board) could see his goose was cooked. We were missing Dieng, Barbet and Dickie, but what about Johansen, Adomah, Field, Dunne, Austin and Chair? And so it goes on. The players stepped down or couldn't cope when the going got tough, and this happened in game after game. That either shows the coaching team lost their way, the players aren't good or committed enough, or - most worryingly - both.
As for Warbs, it's reasonable to infer the two things were/are connected. If, just once, he'd agreed Charlie needs to get better and fitter, or Jojo had to exert more influence on games, or asked why Dickie had stopped making forays from the back, rather than relentlessly wrapping them in cotton wool to the fanbase, Nick London and other media, could this really have led to a worse outcome than it did? The game has got so wrapped up with 'protecting' players (both their bodies and egos) it's becoming sickening. Read Pat Nevin's biography on playing big games on consecutive days and doing extra training on his own to help make himself the best, who, before the snowflakes start fluttering around my ears, is still walking around with mind and body in decent shape as far as I know. Quite honestly, apart from his many good qualities, Warburton needs to learn how to use the rough end of his tongue in public, reel in the platitudes and evolve his style or methods to deal with injuries and downturns, while Eustace is so bland he could make tofu look like the spicy menu option. In many ways, Warburton reminds me of Ray Wilkins - gentlemanly, cultured, and serious. I like that grace in its place, but, as with Super Ray, it isn't necessarily a winning recipe when it comes to the cut and thrust of football management.
Whoever now comes in I'd like him to be stern, sharp, demanding, charismatic and above all ambitious - I'm thinking Tommy Docherty meets Neil Warnock, with a tasty sprinkle of Sexton-esque progressive coaching influence (the one thing MW seemed to bring to the party, though you'd not have known it when things started to go south). Is he out there? I don't know, but I'm not paid to know. However, reality begins in imagining, fantasising and knowing what you want and why you want it. Whether people like it or not, I suspect there are people in positions at the club who are not unequivocal about wanting promotion, popularity and success. Our CEO can't even organise POY events, charges us a stupid sum to put the name of a former employee on a stand infinitely more important to many QPR fans than his petty administrator's mind could understand, or sell tickets properly for games. His head would probably explode if we entered the Premiership.
Treat the above as a bit of polemic and a few well-chosen brickbats, if you will, as I'm as upset as anyone with the outcome. Some will get my drift, while the above mentioned snowflakes can settle themselves in a drift of their own making. (Like Wendy James, I don't care.) [Post edited 11 May 2022 22:33]
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However, neither you, nor I, nor anyone else knows what he said to the players behind closed doors.
There are plenty of managers who are publicly supportive of their players but speak very plainly to them in the dressing room. |  |
| "Things had started becoming increasingly desperate at Loftus Road but QPR have been handed a massive lifeline and the place has absolutely erupted. it's carnage. It's bedlam. It's 1-1." |
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| Not in a disrespectful way, far from it - Three years with Warbs on 08:18 - May 12 with 2367 views | R_from_afar |
| Not in a disrespectful way, far from it - Three years with Warbs on 15:30 - May 11 by Nushnool |
I also see it as managers get sacked after a poor run of results, and just don’t feel secure enough to rely on untested youth players. What we need is a structure in place where the manager is supported enough when young players are blooded, and maybe results aren’t as good as they would be with loaned-in known quantities. I thought we had that structure and security with Warburton, but maybe not as much as we’d been led to believe. |
"What we need is a structure in place where the manager is supported enough when young players are blooded, and maybe results aren’t as good as they would be with loaned-in known quantities".
This is a good idea, I think, but we fans would also have to do our bit by being patient. Tricky... | |
| "Things had started becoming increasingly desperate at Loftus Road but QPR have been handed a massive lifeline and the place has absolutely erupted. it's carnage. It's bedlam. It's 1-1." |
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| Not in a disrespectful way, far from it - Three years with Warbs on 09:20 - May 12 with 2290 views | terryb |
From Stainrod's elbow "I'm thinking Tommy Docherty meets Neil Warnock"
I think we can do without the mention of the man who makes Mullery, Hughes & Redknapp look like good appointments that the club has made! And no, I'm not on about Neil Warnock.
I base this not just on his time as manager of our club, but from what I was told by an England international that he tried to sign for Manchester United. I do hope that our new manager has different priorities in life to THAT MAN. [Post edited 12 May 2022 9:22]
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| Not in a disrespectful way, far from it - Three years with Warbs on 10:30 - May 12 with 2220 views | CliveWilsonSaid |
Thanks Clive. It's a rare thing at QPR to have a manager to be really proud of. Similar with Captains. Shame it hasn't worked out although 3 seasons is quite good for us! A hard act to follow as you say. |  |
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| Not in a disrespectful way, far from it - Three years with Warbs on 10:58 - May 12 with 2177 views | eastside_r |
Can’t really add to the comments above but you absolutely nailed the negatives. As you say ‘No Plan B’ was a wrong cliché but stubborn - oh yes and I would add oddly passive aggressive, especially in his interviews with you.
Two traits I recognise in me (sadly) so easy to spot in others. |  | | |
| Not in a disrespectful way, far from it - Three years with Warbs on 11:04 - May 12 with 2173 views | Northernr |
| Not in a disrespectful way, far from it - Three years with Warbs on 10:58 - May 12 by eastside_r |
Can’t really add to the comments above but you absolutely nailed the negatives. As you say ‘No Plan B’ was a wrong cliché but stubborn - oh yes and I would add oddly passive aggressive, especially in his interviews with you.
Two traits I recognise in me (sadly) so easy to spot in others. |
I never minded that though. I much preferred it to the drek McClaren came out with, or Redknapp just sitting there lying to you, or Holloway telling that bloody Swindon story again.
He'd also talk very openly off mic to explain why. |  | | |
| Not in a disrespectful way, far from it - Three years with Warbs on 14:52 - May 12 with 1954 views | Benny_the_Ball |
A good piece, Clive, that reflects how torn I am with the club's decision. Usually these decisions are pretty clear cut but in the case of Warburton you can argue a strong case either way. If it were played out on the pitch then a draw would be a fair result but that outcome isn't available off-the-pitch.
Whilst I understand that you may not be privy to all of the facts, I would have liked to seen more coverage of the dynamic between manager and board. Despite his amenable nature, Warburton can be prickly. You have witnessed this first hand but you've blamed yourself rather than question Mark's character or temperament. In any job, upward relationships are key. If you don't get on with your bosses then it's bound to end badly, regardless of performance.
I myself lost a job under similar circumstances despite smashing all of my targets. I had to take that learning into the next role to avoid a repeat occurrence. Mark, for some reason, doesn't appear to be learning. He's struggled to forge meaningful relationships with executives at previous clubs and it appears that the same thing has happened at QPR. Is it a basic character flaw? Having secured his financial future in the City, is Mark too self-assured? Given the short-term nature of first team managerial roles does he even care? Or should we be asking questions of the DoF? Whatever the truth of the matter, there was a clear disconnect that became evident in interviews from the turn of the year (Ferdinand's "we offered him a striker" being an obvious example).
Ultimately we can dissect results, performances, tactics, and selections until the cows come home but in such power struggles there is only ever going to be one winner. I just hope and pray that the QPR board hasn't cut its nose off to spite its face. [Post edited 12 May 2022 14:53]
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| Not in a disrespectful way, far from it - Three years with Warbs on 14:54 - May 12 with 1951 views | Benny_the_Ball |
| Not in a disrespectful way, far from it - Three years with Warbs on 11:04 - May 12 by Northernr |
I never minded that though. I much preferred it to the drek McClaren came out with, or Redknapp just sitting there lying to you, or Holloway telling that bloody Swindon story again.
He'd also talk very openly off mic to explain why. |
What was his explanation? IMHO his changes were too often reactive rather than proactive. Changes in formation would typically come after a dire sequence of results during which Warburton would insist that the players do the same things, only better. Mark almost lost his job in Christmas 2020 when QPR were hovering precariously above the relegation zone and sinking like a stone. Some January acquisitions and a switch to a back 3 kickstarted an excellent run and saved Mark's job. Given the players at his disposal (Barbet in particular comes to mind), one has to ask why Warburton wasn't selecting a formation that suited his squad in the first place, and why he took so long to make the switch. | | | |
| Not in a disrespectful way, far from it - Three years with Warbs on 15:14 - May 12 with 1933 views | Northernr |
| Not in a disrespectful way, far from it - Three years with Warbs on 14:54 - May 12 by Benny_the_Ball |
What was his explanation? IMHO his changes were too often reactive rather than proactive. Changes in formation would typically come after a dire sequence of results during which Warburton would insist that the players do the same things, only better. Mark almost lost his job in Christmas 2020 when QPR were hovering precariously above the relegation zone and sinking like a stone. Some January acquisitions and a switch to a back 3 kickstarted an excellent run and saved Mark's job. Given the players at his disposal (Barbet in particular comes to mind), one has to ask why Warburton wasn't selecting a formation that suited his squad in the first place, and why he took so long to make the switch. |
Well in the case of him getting cross about the 'overdraft' comment the explanation is in the piece...
Frustrated after an interview with LFW that had gone rather south towards the end thanks to me being a provocative, clever little sht, Warburton patiently explained off mic that he didn’t think enough credit and attention was being paid to exactly what he was up against. A week out from a home game with Nottingham Forest he had only Dykes as a recognised forward, and he’d been injured on international duty with Scotland. Forest meanwhile had added £30,000-a-week Loyal Taylor to £45,000-a-week Lewis Grabban, and agreed to pick up 100% of loanee Luke Freeman’s Premier League wage as well, as part of another mad and expensive summer trolley dash. When pushed on why we kept conceding from set pieces he pointed out there was a striker in this league on £107,000 a week (Mitrovic) who he was marking with the likes of Conor Masterson (not in a disrespectful way, far from it). Rangers beat Nottingham Forest 2-0, and rallied through the second half of the season to finish ninth. | | | |
| Not in a disrespectful way, far from it - Three years with Warbs on 17:39 - May 12 with 1753 views | Benny_the_Ball |
| Not in a disrespectful way, far from it - Three years with Warbs on 15:14 - May 12 by Northernr |
Well in the case of him getting cross about the 'overdraft' comment the explanation is in the piece...
Frustrated after an interview with LFW that had gone rather south towards the end thanks to me being a provocative, clever little sht, Warburton patiently explained off mic that he didn’t think enough credit and attention was being paid to exactly what he was up against. A week out from a home game with Nottingham Forest he had only Dykes as a recognised forward, and he’d been injured on international duty with Scotland. Forest meanwhile had added £30,000-a-week Loyal Taylor to £45,000-a-week Lewis Grabban, and agreed to pick up 100% of loanee Luke Freeman’s Premier League wage as well, as part of another mad and expensive summer trolley dash. When pushed on why we kept conceding from set pieces he pointed out there was a striker in this league on £107,000 a week (Mitrovic) who he was marking with the likes of Conor Masterson (not in a disrespectful way, far from it). Rangers beat Nottingham Forest 2-0, and rallied through the second half of the season to finish ninth. |
Did he ever explain his preference for particular formations and why he would generally stick to one for prolonged periods? In his early stint he preferred 4-3-1-2 before a poor sequence of results at the back end of 2020 saw him switch to 3-5-2 in January 2021. He largely stuck with this formation through 2022 with a switch to a more conventional 4-4-2/4-4-1-1 only coming once the play-off horse had bolted. | | | |
| Not in a disrespectful way, far from it - Three years with Warbs on 17:52 - May 12 with 1743 views | NorthantsHoop |
In the modern game for Warbs to last 3 years at a club especially with QPR's managerial track record is pretty impressive. Personally think he stabilised the club on the playing front. Although thought he did a great job and for me formations aside think he made us a decent team away from home, but probably his achilles heel was the home form, that just needed improvement, we tended to look brittle at times and even the earlier wins at home this last season were not without a bit of a struggle at times, but overall a good manager for us. |  | | |
| Not in a disrespectful way, far from it - Three years with Warbs on 09:38 - May 13 with 1541 views | TheChef |
| Not in a disrespectful way, far from it - Three years with Warbs on 14:52 - May 12 by Benny_the_Ball |
A good piece, Clive, that reflects how torn I am with the club's decision. Usually these decisions are pretty clear cut but in the case of Warburton you can argue a strong case either way. If it were played out on the pitch then a draw would be a fair result but that outcome isn't available off-the-pitch.
Whilst I understand that you may not be privy to all of the facts, I would have liked to seen more coverage of the dynamic between manager and board. Despite his amenable nature, Warburton can be prickly. You have witnessed this first hand but you've blamed yourself rather than question Mark's character or temperament. In any job, upward relationships are key. If you don't get on with your bosses then it's bound to end badly, regardless of performance.
I myself lost a job under similar circumstances despite smashing all of my targets. I had to take that learning into the next role to avoid a repeat occurrence. Mark, for some reason, doesn't appear to be learning. He's struggled to forge meaningful relationships with executives at previous clubs and it appears that the same thing has happened at QPR. Is it a basic character flaw? Having secured his financial future in the City, is Mark too self-assured? Given the short-term nature of first team managerial roles does he even care? Or should we be asking questions of the DoF? Whatever the truth of the matter, there was a clear disconnect that became evident in interviews from the turn of the year (Ferdinand's "we offered him a striker" being an obvious example).
Ultimately we can dissect results, performances, tactics, and selections until the cows come home but in such power struggles there is only ever going to be one winner. I just hope and pray that the QPR board hasn't cut its nose off to spite its face. [Post edited 12 May 2022 14:53]
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Good points BtB.
Seems fairly clear he is good at managing down (I think he always had the players onside and didn't lose the dressing room) but as you say has issues managing up. | |
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| Not in a disrespectful way, far from it - Three years with Warbs on 09:52 - May 13 with 1522 views | Northernr |
| Not in a disrespectful way, far from it - Three years with Warbs on 17:39 - May 12 by Benny_the_Ball |
Did he ever explain his preference for particular formations and why he would generally stick to one for prolonged periods? In his early stint he preferred 4-3-1-2 before a poor sequence of results at the back end of 2020 saw him switch to 3-5-2 in January 2021. He largely stuck with this formation through 2022 with a switch to a more conventional 4-4-2/4-4-1-1 only coming once the play-off horse had bolted. |
Well I think he would disagree with the premise that he stuck with them too long. He was always quick to say to me that he prefers 4-2-3-1/4-3-3 but switched to a back three because "you can't be stubborn". Whereas you and I think he probably stuck with things that weren't working a little bit longer than perhaps he might. | | | |
| Not in a disrespectful way, far from it - Three years with Warbs on 09:54 - May 13 with 1517 views | TheChef |
| Not in a disrespectful way, far from it - Three years with Warbs on 09:52 - May 13 by Northernr |
Well I think he would disagree with the premise that he stuck with them too long. He was always quick to say to me that he prefers 4-2-3-1/4-3-3 but switched to a back three because "you can't be stubborn". Whereas you and I think he probably stuck with things that weren't working a little bit longer than perhaps he might. |
Hmmm "you can't be stubborn", but perhaps he'd like to be more than is good for him/the team? | |
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| Not in a disrespectful way, far from it - Three years with Warbs on 15:54 - May 13 with 1379 views | Myke |
It would be interesting, Clive, to do one final interview with Warburton. Get him to summarise his three years and in particular the last three months. Be great to hear 'from the horses mouth' which, if any, of the issues raised by WLS, were real or perceived. | | | |
| Not in a disrespectful way, far from it - Three years with Warbs on 16:21 - May 13 with 1349 views | stainrods_elbow |
| Not in a disrespectful way, far from it - Three years with Warbs on 15:54 - May 13 by Myke |
It would be interesting, Clive, to do one final interview with Warburton. Get him to summarise his three years and in particular the last three months. Be great to hear 'from the horses mouth' which, if any, of the issues raised by WLS, were real or perceived. |
Nice idea, but I'm inclined to say 'and pigs might fly', especially from the Warburton's hyper-diplomatic mouth. Even decades after that Milk Cup Final that never happened, the likes of Peter Hucker were refusing to do more than allude to 'people at QPR wanting us to lose the game' without doing anything as dangerous as naming and shaming a single employee. What it is about football that treats its paying customers as if they were peering in on matter of national secutrity beats me - it's both risible and exasperating, and what leads to people talking with hushed gratitude about largely speculative 'behind the scenes' pieces on QPR in West London Sport as if they were somehow lid-lifting. [Post edited 13 May 2022 16:23]
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| Not in a disrespectful way, far from it - Three years with Warbs on 19:25 - May 13 with 1251 views | Northernr |
| Not in a disrespectful way, far from it - Three years with Warbs on 15:54 - May 13 by Myke |
It would be interesting, Clive, to do one final interview with Warburton. Get him to summarise his three years and in particular the last three months. Be great to hear 'from the horses mouth' which, if any, of the issues raised by WLS, were real or perceived. |
The way football is anyway, this stuff now comes out 10 years down the line on patreon interviews or Under the Cosh. Warburton is so tightly wound I don’t think he’d even tell you then. He doesn’t about his Brentford exit which is a long time ago now.
I still think ten years from now somebody will go “oh yeh A fcked Bs wife and it all fell apart.” | | | |
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