| The Hillsborough Saga 16:21 - Nov 28 with 5199 views | SuddenLad |
Chief Superintendent David Duckenfield found 'not guilty' of gross negligence manslaughter.
It has taken 30 years to establish justice, but finally it's over.
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| “It is easier to fool people, than to convince them that they have been fooled†|
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| The Hillsborough Saga on 14:48 - Nov 29 with 1486 views | firgrovedale51 |
| The Hillsborough Saga on 09:10 - Nov 29 by SuddenLad |
Well, the jury decided otherwise and ultimately, it is their decision that counts. Opinions are one thing, facts and evidence are something else... |
So whose fault was it?
It was reported that statements were tampered with and some went missing I wonder why and who would do such a thing ? |  | | |
| The Hillsborough Saga on 15:58 - Nov 29 with 1434 views | SuddenLad |
I may be wrong, but I think that involves a company of solicitors who were representing South Yorkshire Police in respect of public liability matters.
It would be wrong to comment further, because I think the case is still live and on-going.
Best leave it there for now, but whatever the case involves, it has/had no bearing on the Duckenfield trial. | |
| “It is easier to fool people, than to convince them that they have been fooled†|
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| The Hillsborough Saga on 17:10 - Nov 29 with 1372 views | tony_roch975 |
| The Hillsborough Saga on 15:58 - Nov 29 by SuddenLad |
I may be wrong, but I think that involves a company of solicitors who were representing South Yorkshire Police in respect of public liability matters.
It would be wrong to comment further, because I think the case is still live and on-going.
Best leave it there for now, but whatever the case involves, it has/had no bearing on the Duckenfield trial. |
I don't agree - had the police not carried out a cover-up operation to hide the truth about the incident and to deliberately throw the blame on to the fans; had they not been given the role of a pseudo-militia by Margaret Thatcher in the decade leading up to Hillsborough; had Mr Duckinfield not lied for over 25 years about his responsibility for the opening of the gate and the failure to close the tunnel - then justice would have been done. The fact that Mr Duckinfield was deemed by the jury as not singularly responsible for gross negligence manslaughter does not mean he had no responsibility but the culture of demonisation of working class folk (miners, steel workers or football fans) by Thatcher and the rest of the elite is the real responsibility. | |
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| The Hillsborough Saga on 17:17 - Nov 29 with 1364 views | tony_roch975 |
| The Hillsborough Saga on 08:50 - Nov 29 by firgrovedale51 |
He did not give the order to open the gate , the person that give that order is ultimately to blame along with the safety officer , the council and the stadium managers .
Without that gate being opened the rush simply would not have occurred . |
He did - "The court was played audio of the retired chief superintendent giving evidence to inquests in 2015. In those hearings, he accepted he should have taken steps to close the tunnel to the central pens after ordering the opening of the exit gate." from the Court report. | |
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| The Hillsborough Saga on 17:25 - Nov 29 with 1342 views | D_Alien |
Can i ask a simple question of those who still persist in dragging this out?
Q. Do you think the jurymen & women were corrupt, stupid, or misled? |  |
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| The Hillsborough Saga on 17:25 - Nov 29 with 1348 views | tony_roch975 |
| The Hillsborough Saga on 17:25 - Nov 29 by D_Alien |
Can i ask a simple question of those who still persist in dragging this out?
Q. Do you think the jurymen & women were corrupt, stupid, or misled? |
No, no & no | |
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| The Hillsborough Saga on 17:27 - Nov 29 with 1329 views | D_Alien |
| The Hillsborough Saga on 17:25 - Nov 29 by tony_roch975 |
No, no & no |
So if you were simply correcting something posted earlier, fair enough
That's all been established now
Is there anything else to say, that hasn't already been repeated multiple times? | |
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| The Hillsborough Saga on 17:46 - Nov 29 with 1306 views | SuddenLad |
| The Hillsborough Saga on 17:10 - Nov 29 by tony_roch975 |
I don't agree - had the police not carried out a cover-up operation to hide the truth about the incident and to deliberately throw the blame on to the fans; had they not been given the role of a pseudo-militia by Margaret Thatcher in the decade leading up to Hillsborough; had Mr Duckinfield not lied for over 25 years about his responsibility for the opening of the gate and the failure to close the tunnel - then justice would have been done. The fact that Mr Duckinfield was deemed by the jury as not singularly responsible for gross negligence manslaughter does not mean he had no responsibility but the culture of demonisation of working class folk (miners, steel workers or football fans) by Thatcher and the rest of the elite is the real responsibility. |
As you point out elsewhere Duckenfield admitted that he ordered the opening of the gate. He also admitted that he failed to order the closure of the tunnel.
These facts were well known at the time of the trial and the jury were aware of this.
They still returned a not guilty verdict.
Nobody has said he doesn't bear some responsibility, (he himself has accepted that), only that he wasn't criminally negligent. The consequences of his decisions could not have been reasonably foreseen.
As for the political /demonisation argument, it has nothing to do with Duckenfield or his trial. It's merely an opinion.
Alternatively, if football fans hadn't behaved like marauding thugs on countless occasions in the decade leading up to Hillsborough, creating havoc and serious public disorder, then the policing of football matches would have been very different.
Again, just an opinion, but no less valid. | |
| “It is easier to fool people, than to convince them that they have been fooled†|
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| The Hillsborough Saga on 18:01 - Nov 29 with 1290 views | tony_roch975 |
| The Hillsborough Saga on 17:46 - Nov 29 by SuddenLad |
As you point out elsewhere Duckenfield admitted that he ordered the opening of the gate. He also admitted that he failed to order the closure of the tunnel.
These facts were well known at the time of the trial and the jury were aware of this.
They still returned a not guilty verdict.
Nobody has said he doesn't bear some responsibility, (he himself has accepted that), only that he wasn't criminally negligent. The consequences of his decisions could not have been reasonably foreseen.
As for the political /demonisation argument, it has nothing to do with Duckenfield or his trial. It's merely an opinion.
Alternatively, if football fans hadn't behaved like marauding thugs on countless occasions in the decade leading up to Hillsborough, creating havoc and serious public disorder, then the policing of football matches would have been very different.
Again, just an opinion, but no less valid. |
I haven't challenged the verdict. But the demonisation argument does have something to do with Duckinfield - it explains why he with his South Yorkshire Police colleagues felt above the law and able to justify 95 'unlawful killings'. That 'prejudgment' (ie prejudice) of deciding a group (Liverpool fans @ Hillsborough) must be unworthy of a duty of care because some other members of their 'tribe' have behaved badly, which you repeat, is the pervasive and unhealthy basis to all prejudice - against Jews, Muslims, football fans or the working class. The old adage still applies - 2 wrongs don't make a right. | |
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| The Hillsborough Saga on 18:13 - Nov 30 with 1130 views | Tappers |
There was a flag at Anfield today
'Justice Delayed ' This is not over. Ask
Yourself if you would accept no one found
responsible for your loved one. No one
should go to a game and not come
home whoever you support. I watched
Hillsborough unfold when i was at work
know 3 families that lost a loved one inc
a young boy. Tell them its over. | | | |
| The Hillsborough Saga on 18:31 - Nov 30 with 1099 views | D_Alien |
| The Hillsborough Saga on 18:13 - Nov 30 by Tappers |
There was a flag at Anfield today
'Justice Delayed ' This is not over. Ask
Yourself if you would accept no one found
responsible for your loved one. No one
should go to a game and not come
home whoever you support. I watched
Hillsborough unfold when i was at work
know 3 families that lost a loved one inc
a young boy. Tell them its over. |
We've had 30 years of this, and no resolution is going to be found
The only people who will continue to be hurt beyond the already desperate 30 years of hurt are those who continue to hope for someone to be found guilty
It's not going to happen, or extremely unlikely given the latest verdict
In answer to your question, i personally would wish to now finally move on. I'd wish that for others too, hence my previous posts | |
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| The Hillsborough Saga on 19:01 - Nov 30 with 1063 views | firgrovedale51 |
| The Hillsborough Saga on 18:31 - Nov 30 by D_Alien |
We've had 30 years of this, and no resolution is going to be found
The only people who will continue to be hurt beyond the already desperate 30 years of hurt are those who continue to hope for someone to be found guilty
It's not going to happen, or extremely unlikely given the latest verdict
In answer to your question, i personally would wish to now finally move on. I'd wish that for others too, hence my previous posts |
As Sudden wrote he admitted his guilt therefore the jury got it wrong in saying not guilty , again he admitted it . If a jury can not say guilty when the defendant admits it then we could have all sorts of criminals running around free.
We have had longer threads than this . [Post edited 30 Nov 2019 19:05]
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| The Hillsborough Saga on 19:42 - Nov 30 with 1020 views | D_Alien |
| The Hillsborough Saga on 19:01 - Nov 30 by firgrovedale51 |
As Sudden wrote he admitted his guilt therefore the jury got it wrong in saying not guilty , again he admitted it . If a jury can not say guilty when the defendant admits it then we could have all sorts of criminals running around free.
We have had longer threads than this . [Post edited 30 Nov 2019 19:05]
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I'm afraid that's a serious misinterpretation of what Duckenfield admitted to
He admitted that it was his decisions regarding the gates to the perimeter of the ground and the enclosure where the crush took place
He did not admit guilt to manslaughter - otherwise why would he be on trial? It'd just have been a matter of sentencing had he admitted guilt to that charge
The jury (successive juries) have found him not guilty of that charge
Please move on*, the length of threads is irrelevant
* I daresay you won't, but at least be appraised of the actual facts
[Post edited 30 Nov 2019 19:43]
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| The Hillsborough Saga on 19:58 - Nov 30 with 994 views | firgrovedale51 |
| The Hillsborough Saga on 19:42 - Nov 30 by D_Alien |
I'm afraid that's a serious misinterpretation of what Duckenfield admitted to
He admitted that it was his decisions regarding the gates to the perimeter of the ground and the enclosure where the crush took place
He did not admit guilt to manslaughter - otherwise why would he be on trial? It'd just have been a matter of sentencing had he admitted guilt to that charge
The jury (successive juries) have found him not guilty of that charge
Please move on*, the length of threads is irrelevant
* I daresay you won't, but at least be appraised of the actual facts
[Post edited 30 Nov 2019 19:43]
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He admitted giving the order to open the gate his fault by his own admission end of | | | |
| The Hillsborough Saga on 20:32 - Nov 30 with 972 views | nordenblue |
| The Hillsborough Saga on 18:13 - Nov 30 by Tappers |
There was a flag at Anfield today
'Justice Delayed ' This is not over. Ask
Yourself if you would accept no one found
responsible for your loved one. No one
should go to a game and not come
home whoever you support. I watched
Hillsborough unfold when i was at work
know 3 families that lost a loved one inc
a young boy. Tell them its over. |
While I agree it's a terrible tragedy and some still require blame attached,for those who've lost love ones it sadly won't reverse what's happened, similarly the events that unfolded at Heysel where by all accounts some would say proper justice has never been served either, yet with Liverpool fans held solely responsible for the disaster it's never discussed anywhere near at length as Hillsborough and very much still the elephant in the room? | | | |
| The Hillsborough Saga on 20:54 - Nov 30 with 944 views | D_Alien |
| The Hillsborough Saga on 19:58 - Nov 30 by firgrovedale51 |
He admitted giving the order to open the gate his fault by his own admission end of |
Those juries really missed out on your input... | |
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| The Hillsborough Saga on 08:48 - Dec 1 with 857 views | firgrovedale51 |
| The Hillsborough Saga on 20:54 - Nov 30 by D_Alien |
Those juries really missed out on your input... |
They certainly did. | | | |
| The Hillsborough Saga on 08:58 - Dec 1 with 849 views | James1980 |
Was opening the gate the only cause of this tragic event though? | |
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