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If we said brexit was off the table tomorrow we'd be booming and we'd all be enjoying a pay rise. We are in for a gloomy few years all for nothing. It p1sses me off.
1) It is not in Scotland's interest. All of the growth recorded in Scotland in the last 20 or so years is attributed to rising demand in the UK for Scottish products. Scotland are not getting anything from the EU except more UK subsidy (paid via the EU) on top of the already heavy subsidy they get under the Barnett formula. If Scotland left the UK for the EU tomorrow they would be a basket case and at the mercy of the EU states who pay in...those paying attention will know that they don't have much of an appetite for subsidising weak states at the moment...and this is unlikely to change anytime soon. They are a mess. They would also have to adopt the Euro, have hard borders with the UK, a trade barrier between us and them (imposed by the EU), and would see UK government relocate many highly paid jobs to the UK. It would be suicide and anyone who says otherwise is deluded.
2) You cannot ignore that EU money coming into Wales is in fact UK money coming back to us because it is a FACT...AND WE ARE PART OF THE UK, IT WOULD NOT BE IN UK GOVERNMENT'S INTEREST TO KEEP THAT MONEY AFTER BREXIT, FOR POLITICAL REASONS AND ECONOMIC REASONS.
A big part of the Welsh economy is farming...the UK is subsidising their competition in France. Let that sink in. I know a farmer personally. He says he was for Brexit and so are most of the farmers he meets.
Another pillar of the Welsh economy is manufacturing....the weaker pound is to their advantage (see the Steel industry), doing trade deals with the parts of the global economy that are actually growing is in their interest...I know, I know, "the supply chains"...f*ck the European supply chains (if they don't want to do a trade deal and business with us) Business and the government should be investing here so we can do it all ourselves Investment + Education/Training = Jobs and higher wages.
There is nothing sourced in Europe that can't be sourced somewhere else, and usually cheaper.
3) "taking back control"
How about what the government has set out as regards fishing? It has put a lot of EU noses out of joint. Why? Because they have been shafting us in this area for so long.
How about refusing to be under the jurisdiction of the ECJ? Brussels is proposing that after we leave their citizens living here will still be under the jurisdiction of the ECJ... They are also proposing that they have the right to impose retrospective fines on us.. This is stuff from colonial times from the German Empire that is the EU. Doesn't their cheek make you angry? It should do. Wars were fought over this kind of thing.
Why are so many of you siding with a group of countries trying to impose their rule even after we leave their club, a group of countries who threaten to economically strangle us if we dare to resist?
...and let's talk about the EU; - terrible unemployment - stagnant economies - bank bailouts in Italy against their own rules - migration crisis that is easily solved but they can't seem to manage it (even Bill Gates has come around to the idea that you have to stop the boats and make it more difficult for people to stay in the EU...he directly blamed the EU for so many migrant deaths yesterday) - Currency that needs billions of Euros printed monthly to support it - the Greeks forced to endure HUGE cuts and poverty in order that German and French banks don't have to take the hit for their stupid investment decisions. - Economy shrinking as a percentage of the Global economy - Leaders removed at the behest of the commision, bankers put in their place - referendums ignored routinely - "Parliament" (in fact it is like the Lords, they rubber stamp what the commission dishes up to them) that doesn't function...supposed to oversee the Commission, Junker said this week in response to the speaker of the parliament pointing this out to him; "There are few people in the World that can control the Commission" ...he then went on to rubbish the institution - Routine lies told to electorates in the EUs defence...see Macron, who wont reform anything about the EU that Germany itself hasn't already decided they want to change...and who will have to make cuts in France despite saying the opposite in the campaign, he will have to because Germany says he has to - Lying about the EU army which they are now putting together post haste...perhaps they intend to use it on us. - Eastern Europe being dictated to and cast in the role of spongers - Encouraging Ukraine to believe they could be part of the EU which has led to the Russian annexation of Crimea and thousands of deaths. - The TOTAL lack of accountability - Barnier stating that the UK is "deluded" for thinking that we could leave the EU and still trade on good terms. Straight up racketeering.
....and I could go on.
The only negatives of Brexit to our economy is this period of uncertainty....investment will flow when they know what the rules are going to be. The only impediment to a quick solution is the EU they would rather damage everyone's economies and risk war than get on with building their deeply unpopular superstate without us...tells you something.
This is comment. Now please post any positive news story re incoming investment, trade deals etc post vote and any evidence to back your assertions.
European Commission - Speech - [Check Against Delivery] Speech by Michel Barnier at the European Economic and Social Committee
Brussels, 6 July 2017
[Full EN version further below] Â - Checked against delivery -
Mr President, dear Georges Dassis,
Dear Members of the European Economic and Social Committee, Ladies and gentlemen,
I am very happy to be back here today and to address your plenary session.
Many of you, as entrepreneurs, trade unionists, leaders of NGOs, or leaders of the civil society, know that Brexit means uncertainty — for citizens first, for businesses, and for jobs.
There will be no business as usual.
Today I want to talk frankly and sincerely about the need for economic and social actors to prepare and face this uncertainty. Each of you has an important role in raising awareness and making the link with civil society. And I will continue to support your work by ensuring the transparency of the negotiations.
But there are also a few certainties.
The UK will become a third country at the end of March 2019.
The UK government has defined a number of "red lines" for the future relationship: -no more free movement for EU citizens, -full autonomy over UK laws, -autonomy to conclude its own trade agreements, -no role for the European Court of Justice.
This implies leaving the single market and leaving the EU Customs Union.
On the EU side, we made three things very clear:
- The free movement of persons, goods, services and capital are indivisible. We cannot let the single market unravel.
- There can be no sector by sector participation in the single market: you cannot leave the single market and then opt-in to those sectors you like most — say, the automobile industry or financial services. You cannot be half-in and half-out of the single market.
- The EU must maintain full sovereignty for deciding regulations: the EU is not only a big marketplace. It is also an economic and social community where we adopt common standards. All third countries must respect our autonomy to set rules and standards. And I say this at the moment when the UK has decided to leave this community and become a third country.
These three points were already made clear — very clear — by the European Council and the European Parliament. But I am not sure whether they have been fully understood across the Channel.
I have heard some people in the UK argue that one can leave the single market and keep all of its benefits — that is not possible.
I have heard some people in the UK argue that one can leave the single market and build a customs union to achieve "frictionless trade" — that is not possible.
The decision to leave the EU has consequences. And we have to explain to citizens, businesses and civil society on both sides of the Channel what these consequences mean for them.
Let me be clear: these consequences are the direct result of the choices made by the UK, not by the EU. There is no punishment for Brexit. And of course no spirit of revenge.
But Brexit has a cost, also for business in the EU27.
And business should assess, with lucidity, the negative consequences of the UK's choice on trade and investment. And prepare to manage them.
European Commission - Speech - [Check Against Delivery] Speech by Michel Barnier at the European Economic and Social Committee
Brussels, 6 July 2017
[Full EN version further below] Â - Checked against delivery -
Mr President, dear Georges Dassis,
Dear Members of the European Economic and Social Committee, Ladies and gentlemen,
I am very happy to be back here today and to address your plenary session.
Many of you, as entrepreneurs, trade unionists, leaders of NGOs, or leaders of the civil society, know that Brexit means uncertainty — for citizens first, for businesses, and for jobs.
There will be no business as usual.
Today I want to talk frankly and sincerely about the need for economic and social actors to prepare and face this uncertainty. Each of you has an important role in raising awareness and making the link with civil society. And I will continue to support your work by ensuring the transparency of the negotiations.
But there are also a few certainties.
The UK will become a third country at the end of March 2019.
The UK government has defined a number of "red lines" for the future relationship: -no more free movement for EU citizens, -full autonomy over UK laws, -autonomy to conclude its own trade agreements, -no role for the European Court of Justice.
This implies leaving the single market and leaving the EU Customs Union.
On the EU side, we made three things very clear:
- The free movement of persons, goods, services and capital are indivisible. We cannot let the single market unravel.
- There can be no sector by sector participation in the single market: you cannot leave the single market and then opt-in to those sectors you like most — say, the automobile industry or financial services. You cannot be half-in and half-out of the single market.
- The EU must maintain full sovereignty for deciding regulations: the EU is not only a big marketplace. It is also an economic and social community where we adopt common standards. All third countries must respect our autonomy to set rules and standards. And I say this at the moment when the UK has decided to leave this community and become a third country.
These three points were already made clear — very clear — by the European Council and the European Parliament. But I am not sure whether they have been fully understood across the Channel.
I have heard some people in the UK argue that one can leave the single market and keep all of its benefits — that is not possible.
I have heard some people in the UK argue that one can leave the single market and build a customs union to achieve "frictionless trade" — that is not possible.
The decision to leave the EU has consequences. And we have to explain to citizens, businesses and civil society on both sides of the Channel what these consequences mean for them.
Let me be clear: these consequences are the direct result of the choices made by the UK, not by the EU. There is no punishment for Brexit. And of course no spirit of revenge.
But Brexit has a cost, also for business in the EU27.
And business should assess, with lucidity, the negative consequences of the UK's choice on trade and investment. And prepare to manage them.
I think it encapsulates the problem we're in at present, it's a thoroughly depressing period. We have both major parties obsessed by ideology and not to coin a phrase "what works"
brexit is a faith, it is not based on any concrete foundations. It is a belief system, it a lust for the past for a time which has now gone and will never come back.
Today the EU signed a trade deal with Japan, it has already signed one with Canada it is starting to recover after the great financial shocks. The great power game we're seeing in the World is between the yanks, Russians, China & the EU.
Instead of being a leading player we're pulling away in some bygone belief in the old Commonwealth and Empire. Those days are long gone.
I expect 60% plus to support remain by Christmas, but even in that scenario in might be too late because we've put our trust in the Thatcherite right wing of the tory party and who voted for it in spades, old labour supporters. Words fail.
I think it encapsulates the problem we're in at present, it's a thoroughly depressing period. We have both major parties obsessed by ideology and not to coin a phrase "what works"
brexit is a faith, it is not based on any concrete foundations. It is a belief system, it a lust for the past for a time which has now gone and will never come back.
Today the EU signed a trade deal with Japan, it has already signed one with Canada it is starting to recover after the great financial shocks. The great power game we're seeing in the World is between the yanks, Russians, China & the EU.
Instead of being a leading player we're pulling away in some bygone belief in the old Commonwealth and Empire. Those days are long gone.
I expect 60% plus to support remain by Christmas, but even in that scenario in might be too late because we've put our trust in the Thatcherite right wing of the tory party and who voted for it in spades, old labour supporters. Words fail.
You say it is the Brexiteers who are lusting for the empire of the past and yet it is those who believe in the EU who long for a seat at the top table jousting with the US, China, Russia and India (who you missed out but who will also be at that table by mid century).
I've got news for you. We haven't been at the top table since WWII and in the context of the EU were sidelined by France and Germany from the start. They have steadfastly ripped us off and ignored our wishes for the EU's direction of travel ALL THE WAY ALONG. That is what is so laughable whenever some politician claims that he wants to stay in but reform it from the inside...that hasn't worked. It used to be France and Germany who called the shots but now it is just Germany who wields all the power. That is reality.
Evidence?
Here is two examples;
- Reform of the CAP...Tony Blair gave up billions (more!) of UK taxpayers cash on the promise it would be reformed. They soft soaked us. Around 40% of the EU budget still gets spent on CAP and French farmers still take most of it.
- Completion of the Single Market in services....we have been arguing for this since the late 80s (30 f-u-c-k-i-n-g years). It hasn't happened because it would be good for the UK and bad for the Germans and the French. Plain and simple, naked protectionism...which is what the EU is all about of course.
....and by the way your desire to be a leading player in an EU that competes with the likes of China is pure fantasy. China is unified. It's citizens share a language, a culture, a history. It is successful economically. It's influence and power is growing. They have the largest standing army in the World. They are the world's 3rd military power and hope to one day be number one. Their citizens would die for China. They are dominating their neighbours and see South East Asia as their sphere of influence, they think they will set the rules in that part of the World and there is nothing to suggest that they have got that one wrong.
The EU? Is a shambles, different factions, they can't agree on anything...a multitude of languages, cultures...a shared history of war with each other. A currency that serves only one of it's states, Germany...zombie banks, debt laden states that can't or won't stick to the fiscal rules of the EU...mass unemployment...unelected unaccountable socialists stymying the economy...it's share of the World economy shrinking, it's population shrinking. It hasn't invested in armed forces (happy to take the free ride on the Americans under the Nato umbrella..while simultaneously its left wing political parties openly dissent against US "imperialism" and chip away at that alliance to the extent where the The Us and their military are like dirty words among the chattering classes and the student population...despite the US riding to their rescue in two world wars)...it hopes to have an EU army one day but has to use clandestine tactics to get there as the idea is so unpopular. Outside Brussels nobody would die for the idea of the EU, I'm not even sure some of the fanatical "believers" who work in their civil service would to be honest. No backbone. The EU is being chipped away at and threatened on all sides. Russia, Turkey, Islamic terrorists of the Middle East and North Africa...they are slowly managing to turn the US against them also. The EU cannot even defend it's borders. The EU would like to dictate the rules to everyone else in the region but they can't even get their own member states to comply, frankly... and now the state who is their 2nd biggest contributor, the UK...the architects of the single market and their strongest military partner have had enough of not being listened too...had enough of having the p*ss taken out of us and have had enough of being dictated to by people who have NO democratic authority...are walking. The EU is a joke.
Only the remaining believers in "the faith" can't see it and it is you lot who are "lusting for the past". Brexiters are for moving on and branching out.
This is comment. Now please post any positive news story re incoming investment, trade deals etc post vote and any evidence to back your assertions.
We can't sign trade deals until we actually leave. Many, many countries have indicated that they will gladly negotiate trade deals with us.
Mark Carney himself has said that conditions in the UK are perfect for investment, it is the only way companies can further expand in the current climate...Sterling has been devalued and so foreign investment will see us as a good bet at a nice price. The hold up is the negotiations with the EU as people need to know what the rules are before they commit large amounts of money. The EU could sign a trade deal with us by the end of the summer if they wanted to (our economy is harmonised with theirs as it stands)...instead they want to play at being our imperial masters and are attempting to hold a gun to our head. Problem with that being is that the gun is likely to blow up in their own face. They are bitter, irresponsible and have no respect for democracy. The EU is falling apart around them and they want to blame us for leaving...they need a long hard look in the mirror.
Some positives already; - manufacturing is growing as a share of our economy - Factory orders are currently the highest they have been since 1987 - The drop in Sterling is helping to inflate our national debt away at a quicker rate. - The UK government has set out it's stall on OUR fishing grounds. In 2 years we will see that sector grow. - In 2 years we will no longer hand over £10bn + every year to people (who set the rules of the club) who want us to fail and their own economies to prosper - The UK government has set out it's stall on the ECJ...no more ageing hippy dipsh*t European judges overruling our courts...usually in favour of the criminal/terrorist. - The UK government has set out it's stall on freedom of movement. We will control our borders and the EU can carry on with the chaos if they like. - No more of this drunken old corrupt c*nt...
The new Philip Hammond tactic, kick the can down the road and it seems to have gathered momentum. I'm, beginning to think this could actually be stopped.
BTW I'd like to congratulate Kerouac having the balls to debate this and not hide behind slogans.
We've been debating this every day for what seems like 467 years. Everything that could have been said has been said. You think it's a terrible thing and everything will be terrible forever, others think it's a good thing. The reality will be in the middle. We just have to wait and see what happens.
The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.
You say it is the Brexiteers who are lusting for the empire of the past and yet it is those who believe in the EU who long for a seat at the top table jousting with the US, China, Russia and India (who you missed out but who will also be at that table by mid century).
I've got news for you. We haven't been at the top table since WWII and in the context of the EU were sidelined by France and Germany from the start. They have steadfastly ripped us off and ignored our wishes for the EU's direction of travel ALL THE WAY ALONG. That is what is so laughable whenever some politician claims that he wants to stay in but reform it from the inside...that hasn't worked. It used to be France and Germany who called the shots but now it is just Germany who wields all the power. That is reality.
Evidence?
Here is two examples;
- Reform of the CAP...Tony Blair gave up billions (more!) of UK taxpayers cash on the promise it would be reformed. They soft soaked us. Around 40% of the EU budget still gets spent on CAP and French farmers still take most of it.
- Completion of the Single Market in services....we have been arguing for this since the late 80s (30 f-u-c-k-i-n-g years). It hasn't happened because it would be good for the UK and bad for the Germans and the French. Plain and simple, naked protectionism...which is what the EU is all about of course.
....and by the way your desire to be a leading player in an EU that competes with the likes of China is pure fantasy. China is unified. It's citizens share a language, a culture, a history. It is successful economically. It's influence and power is growing. They have the largest standing army in the World. They are the world's 3rd military power and hope to one day be number one. Their citizens would die for China. They are dominating their neighbours and see South East Asia as their sphere of influence, they think they will set the rules in that part of the World and there is nothing to suggest that they have got that one wrong.
The EU? Is a shambles, different factions, they can't agree on anything...a multitude of languages, cultures...a shared history of war with each other. A currency that serves only one of it's states, Germany...zombie banks, debt laden states that can't or won't stick to the fiscal rules of the EU...mass unemployment...unelected unaccountable socialists stymying the economy...it's share of the World economy shrinking, it's population shrinking. It hasn't invested in armed forces (happy to take the free ride on the Americans under the Nato umbrella..while simultaneously its left wing political parties openly dissent against US "imperialism" and chip away at that alliance to the extent where the The Us and their military are like dirty words among the chattering classes and the student population...despite the US riding to their rescue in two world wars)...it hopes to have an EU army one day but has to use clandestine tactics to get there as the idea is so unpopular. Outside Brussels nobody would die for the idea of the EU, I'm not even sure some of the fanatical "believers" who work in their civil service would to be honest. No backbone. The EU is being chipped away at and threatened on all sides. Russia, Turkey, Islamic terrorists of the Middle East and North Africa...they are slowly managing to turn the US against them also. The EU cannot even defend it's borders. The EU would like to dictate the rules to everyone else in the region but they can't even get their own member states to comply, frankly... and now the state who is their 2nd biggest contributor, the UK...the architects of the single market and their strongest military partner have had enough of not being listened too...had enough of having the p*ss taken out of us and have had enough of being dictated to by people who have NO democratic authority...are walking. The EU is a joke.
Only the remaining believers in "the faith" can't see it and it is you lot who are "lusting for the past". Brexiters are for moving on and branching out.
So much wrong with that I barely know where to start: - you start off arguing the point rockin was actually making - we're not a superpower and you've both agreed on that. EU membership gives us some collective clout, and we are one of the three top nations in the EU. - there's much wrong with CAP (such as some rich tory and kipper landowners taking over £0.5m a year), but based on a per-land area basis France are subsidised less than many other countries. - Can't compete with China? The EU has a larger economy than China already - the EU can agree on plenty - their agreement on Brexit position being far quicker than even the Tories could manage within their own party being just one example. - of course it doesn't invest extensively in armed forces - it post-dates Nato and was never intended to replace it, nor relace national defence. On the one hand you're saying you want it to operate as a unified state and spend more on militarily to defend its borders, but then you're against greater unification and an EU army. That makes no sense. Which is it? - France is the strongest military partner, we're second (just to be pedantic ) - the reason we're leaving is as much a result of clever and pervasive marketing by UKIP and Tory internal division as it is a genuine rejection of our relationship with the EU. I suspect a lot of people don't even know how we operate within the EU. - the remain vote is based on knowing how we work with our neighbours now. It's the opposite of faith as its backed up by empirical evidence. The EU organisations aren't perfect by any stretch of the imagination. But like any marriage it's give and take as you work towards something thats greater than the sum of the parts. Brexit is uncharted territory and therefore very much requires faith in a belief without any evidence.
Edit - your arguments seem all very military based. Seems a bit strange given that it's not a priority for most people, and we're probably no better or worse off militarily either way.
This is comment. Now please post any positive news story re incoming investment, trade deals etc post vote and any evidence to back your assertions.
Ok. I've got one for you. EDF and CGN have invested £19.6 billion, building Hinkley point C. The F.I.D (final investment decision) was made post Brexit.
Ok. I've got one for you. EDF and CGN have invested £19.6 billion, building Hinkley point C. The F.I.D (final investment decision) was made post Brexit.
[Post edited 6 Jul 2017 20:26]
Hmm, bit early to be praising this deal.
“The Department has committed electricity consumers and taxpayers to a high cost and risky deal in a changing energy marketplace. Time will tell whether the deal represents value for money, but we cannot say the Department has maximised the chances that it will be.”
Amyas Morse, head of the National Audit Office, 23 June 2017
Ok. I've got one for you. EDF and CGN have invested £19.6 billion, building Hinkley point C. The F.I.D (final investment decision) was made post Brexit.
[Post edited 6 Jul 2017 20:26]
Thats very reassuring, and its changed my mind completely.
We need a red, white, and blue Brexit. Strong and stable. Repeat, repeat,
“The Department has committed electricity consumers and taxpayers to a high cost and risky deal in a changing energy marketplace. Time will tell whether the deal represents value for money, but we cannot say the Department has maximised the chances that it will be.”
Amyas Morse, head of the National Audit Office, 23 June 2017
You must have misunderstood what I said. I'll say it again for you, and that is that EDF and CGN , two huge foreign companies, have invested at least £19.6 billion into the U.K. And that decision was made post Brexit. Never once praised the deal.
Thats very reassuring, and its changed my mind completely.
We need a red, white, and blue Brexit. Strong and stable. Repeat, repeat,
25,000 well paid jobs during the construction of HPC and thousands of apprenticeships. Not forgetting the supply chain , at least 100,000 tones of welsh steel from South Wales will be used. All confirmed post Brexit.
You must have misunderstood what I said. I'll say it again for you, and that is that EDF and CGN , two huge foreign companies, have invested at least £19.6 billion into the U.K. And that decision was made post Brexit. Never once praised the deal.
It's not being praised because it's a rip off for the consumer according to the ONS. The job opportunities will be welcome for sure, but at a cost that the likes of the rest of us will have to bear. In or out of the EU it's not a good deal (for us, but EDF energy will do very nicely)
It's not being praised because it's a rip off for the consumer according to the ONS. The job opportunities will be welcome for sure, but at a cost that the likes of the rest of us will have to bear. In or out of the EU it's not a good deal (for us, but EDF energy will do very nicely)
That's regardless, the oracle asked where is the investment post Brexit and I just pointed out that there still is huge investment coming into the U.K. Post Brexit. I.e Hinkley point.
A few other investments since Brexit into the U.K. :- Australian company Peak resources have invested £100m in a new minerals refinery in the tees valley. DONG Energy , a Danish company have also committed £12 billion to renewable energy projects in the U.K. By 2020. Chinese firm CNBM has also committed to investing £2.5 billion into development of 25000 modular homes in the U.K..
This Brexit ain't nowhere near as bad as the EU loving zealots are making it out to be. I'm more optimistic now than before the Brexit vote.
That's regardless, the oracle asked where is the investment post Brexit and I just pointed out that there still is huge investment coming into the U.K. Post Brexit. I.e Hinkley point.
Fair enough. I'd be more interested in whether they're good investments, but that sounds like a different discussion.
Fair enough. I'd be more interested in whether they're good investments, but that sounds like a different discussion.
It is a different discussion altogether. We have also had poor inward investment before Brexit too. If we stick to the question that was asked and not move the goalposts to suit, would be great. ðŸ‘
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