| Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? 23:08 - Feb 19 with 45212 views | GloryHunter |
I was 22 in 1975, and I voted "No". This was based on my political heroes Michael Foot and Tony Benn warning against the dangers of entering the EU. After that, I softened my opposition somewhat. I like the fact that I can now cross most European borders without being searched and showing my passport, and I have since acquired a German wife, who is free to live and work in the UK (although she is not allowed to vote here, despite having paid UK taxes for 25 years). But, to be honest, I am thinking of voting "Out". What do other posters on here think? |  | | |  |
| Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 08:39 - Feb 20 with 3281 views | Gloucs_R |
Out. Take control of our borders, our economy, our fishing quota, our laws and decide our own future. |  |
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| Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 08:47 - Feb 20 with 3257 views | essextaxiboy |
| Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 08:11 - Feb 20 by wortonranger |
I feel this thread is very premature and raises in me a huge concern about a decision that will impact on me and mine for generations. Whilst my gut reaction is IN based on a lifetime where I have increasingly enjoyed the benefits of breaking down the artificial boundaries that divide us whilst preserving the diversity that makes life worthwhile, this is a hugely complex topic that, I sense, the great majority have little real understanding of. The arguments are many and varied and primed for politicians of all hues to make short term capital from. I pray that both sides of the debate present their cases in a clear way to help us to understand the issues as well as we can and that's when people should decide. |
Why is this premature? The agreement was last night ,the campaign starts today . If the issues are as complex as you say the more debate the better surely? What are these artificial boundaries ? Assuming you are in the UK get in your car , start driving and you will reach a very natural boundary. |  | | |
| Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 08:57 - Feb 20 with 3253 views | nix |
So many things annoy me about the EU: the fact that ECJ judgements always seem to go against us; the Common Agricultural Policy; MEPs; the French/German power axis.
But my gut says we should stay. I don't feel I want to align myself with the reactionary crowd; I want to be part of Europe, not looking towards the U.S (who are seriously contemplating voting for Donald Trump ffs; I want us to be part of the negotiations for Europe, not a bystander. I'd like my kids to be able to live easily in other parts of Europe if they wanted to. |  | | |
| Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 09:16 - Feb 20 with 3209 views | dodge_stoke_r |
I think that the whole european union is at the end of its shelf life. The origional idea of free movement, trade deals etc was a good one. But it has just grown "to big" to be truely effective. If it means I have to fill in an imigration card and show my passport to enter Spain, then so be it. Another more simplified way of deciding is a maths question. What does it cost to stay in vrs what it will cost to leave. The trouble is no politician will ever tell us the truth on thoughs figures. |  | | |
| Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 09:20 - Feb 20 with 3204 views | distortR |
We're in for a torrid time, fact and counter fact, statistics and lies.
We had kinnock telling us that we'd be mad to leave, the eu counts for over 50% of our exports but a much smaller % of imports. But on the other hand, we have a £ balance of trade deficit with the eu.
I do take exception to the view that outers are fat tories, there are good left wing reasons to leave, and capitalistic reasons to stay.
Is free movement simply in place to keep wages down?
I've got too much free time at work at the moment, and am working my way through the sharpe novels. He'd sort it out. Wouldn't it be nice to have someone you can relate to handling our negotiations? Not career politicians, hogs with their snouts in the trough. Maybe the real issue is the corruption that seems to pervade everything?
Personally, I would love to see frank fields leading the labour party. Won't happen though. |  | | |
| Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 09:41 - Feb 20 with 3156 views | essextaxiboy |
| Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 09:20 - Feb 20 by distortR |
We're in for a torrid time, fact and counter fact, statistics and lies.
We had kinnock telling us that we'd be mad to leave, the eu counts for over 50% of our exports but a much smaller % of imports. But on the other hand, we have a £ balance of trade deficit with the eu.
I do take exception to the view that outers are fat tories, there are good left wing reasons to leave, and capitalistic reasons to stay.
Is free movement simply in place to keep wages down?
I've got too much free time at work at the moment, and am working my way through the sharpe novels. He'd sort it out. Wouldn't it be nice to have someone you can relate to handling our negotiations? Not career politicians, hogs with their snouts in the trough. Maybe the real issue is the corruption that seems to pervade everything?
Personally, I would love to see frank fields leading the labour party. Won't happen though. |
Is free movement to keep wages down ?
Of course
Exploitative business owners pay 3 days on the minimum wage for the books and expect the rest of the week for free with a room rented out to keep the outgoings down still further.
This wage is still higher than they can earn at home so they take it . If our kids were offered that deal we would tell them to run a mile . Then were hear that UK teenagers "dont want to do low skilled jobs " ........ so we need immigrant labour ..
I think Frank Fields has come out on the "leave" side . Has Mr Corbyn planted his flag yet ? [Post edited 20 Feb 2016 9:42]
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| Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 09:43 - Feb 20 with 3148 views | essextaxiboy |
| Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? (n/t) on 08:11 - Feb 20 by danehoop |
[Post edited 20 Feb 2016 17:07]
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Isnt your second paragraph a scare story ? | | | |
| Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 09:47 - Feb 20 with 3153 views | MedwayR |
Out.
Most of the media discussion regarding the merits of staying or leaving revolves around business/economy. The core principle of business is supply and demand not who's club you happen to be in, there is clearly demand for uk products & services and therefore there will be demand for trade agreements from within the EU if we leave. Our trade & economy works in our favour in this instance and there are plenty of others to trade with too.
What annoys me is countries like Poland & Czech Republic getting the hump regarding changes to our benefits system. What the f**k has it got to do with them, we pay our taxes & only we should decide how those taxes are spent. It also highlights how much money gets taken out of the U.K. Economy by migrants sending money home rather than spending their money here.
I don't think there will be much of a negative impact on the uk if we leave, and I don't think there will be a big change if we leave, but at least we'll have control over our own country & will stop these ridiculous payments to the EU, we have local & national government wasting enough of our money, we don't need a European government wasting even more of it!
The EU needs us far more than we need them imo. Who knows, if we leave maybe others will question their membership of the eu & the whole thing could collapse or radically change. The eu could be great but it's not because no one knows what it's purpose is so how can you measure its success, a good example being the immigration crisis which completely caught the eu off guard, probably because they were preoccupied with wonky fruit.
I love Europe, but not the EU. Over and out. [Post edited 20 Feb 2016 10:35]
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| Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 09:49 - Feb 20 with 3145 views | richranger |
Funny how things have changed since the last vote on Europe. As you said, last time left wingers like Benn and Foot wanted out, and right wing Tories wanted in. Now the situation has reversed. I think this is largely due to the social policies of the EU.
Personally, I'm an internationalist and think we are better off in than out. However, I don't like the way that Cameron has based his campaign on this renegotiation and personalised the process. This could backfire big time. Would be interesting to see who leads the Britain out camp..... | | | |
| Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 09:55 - Feb 20 with 3132 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 08:28 - Feb 20 by RangersDave |
European Union is communism, pure and simple.
Ironic really as Germany is still really right wing! |
I think the opposite, Dave.
The EU is pro-business and pro-capital. As Ireland has seen it will, given the chance, cut government spending, increase inequitable taxes but fault to clamp down on tax-dodging by the elite, it will transfer capital from citizens to the wealthy elite and trample on the wishes of the people eg second Nice and Evans Lisbon treaty votes.
I view it as an elitist, right-wing capitalist superstate.
But then both the Irish and British governments are similar! [Post edited 20 Feb 2016 9:55]
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| Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 09:56 - Feb 20 with 3128 views | Mark1 |
Out.
I see Neil Woodford the investment bod says it'll make no difference economically if we leave. | | | |
| Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 09:58 - Feb 20 with 3126 views | johncharles |
No matter what the outcome, Cameron will claim it as a personal victory. |  |
| Strong and stable my arse. |
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| Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 10:00 - Feb 20 with 3120 views | Aitch |
| Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? (n/t) on 08:11 - Feb 20 by danehoop |
[Post edited 20 Feb 2016 17:07]
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But it's not just UKIP saying we should leave. If the likes of cabinet ministers Iain Duncan Scumbag and Michael Gove think we should be out then the benefits of staying in are clearly not that obvious. |  |
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| Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 10:01 - Feb 20 with 2529 views | Discodroids |
Ingenious methods at play by Tusk and his underlings . A Coup D'etat That would have George Smileys Circus weeping with admiration.s Plucked from Perpetual limbo By an EU Roger de Courcey to be a fixed jaw mouthpiece on a 400,00 euro yearly Tariff.
Vichy Dave, Strapped in and under the pump from a collective of MEP'S who were former Plant Hire bought ledger clerks (A to E) From Portakabins in Gdansk , now strutting their stuff and laying down the law to our Prime Minister by falling asleep and letting go charcuterie scented farts after a 18 hour lunch discussing the regulation size of potato ricers with a 98 year old civil servant Belgian corpse.
Vichy Dave femnized by his EU handlers who will this morning be computating the data to his sickening self serving Cabinet, who will be digesting his primary orders like an 8 byte punch card.
If the E.U lord Haw Haw , vichy Dave came out with a treaty demanding that our young are rendered down for their Innocent waters , for Junckers fcking tulips, i wont be surprised. A quisling familiar of some magnitude. A set of Bugenhagen Knives in the shoulder blades from this awful Estrogen cheeked supplicant of a Prime minister.
If a net contribution of £14 billion to the EU in the fiscal year 2014 inc rebates is a good deal, then this poster will chew bark for its anesthetic properties .
Supposedly in return for our 55 million quid a day we are given a 'Gateway' to trade in europe, what the fcks that mean?. £55 million a day to clear a bit of tin pot legislation and red tape. please fck off .
For the first time since these records were recorded , figures were released in oct 2015 that We now export more outside of the EU than within , yet We dont pay £55 million a day to trade outside the EU, so why pay this Behemoth sum to trade within it??. In addition these clueless lounge lizard sleezebags who exist in some kind of EUtopia seem impervious to the greek tragedy of the ceausescu orphanges of their creation
Vichy Daves EU negotiations With Tusk come to a climax ..
They say 'the best things in life are free' , yet I would happily pay £50 sterling to see That cnt Cameron being mauled by a Bengal tiger.
For the love of all thats holy, OUT. [Post edited 20 Feb 2016 10:07]
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| Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 10:03 - Feb 20 with 2509 views | essextaxiboy |
| Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 10:00 - Feb 20 by Aitch |
But it's not just UKIP saying we should leave. If the likes of cabinet ministers Iain Duncan Scumbag and Michael Gove think we should be out then the benefits of staying in are clearly not that obvious. |
But George Osborne is in the stay camp .
For Left Wing voters who make up their minds based on personality its a bit of a bummer really . | | | |
| Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 10:36 - Feb 20 with 2479 views | jonno |
Gove is a fellow R so based on that I agree with him.
Seriously though, I see that eight out ten of the largest companies want to stay in, and I wonder why that is. My suspicion is that it is because with the uncontrolled influx of workers from the EU they can continue to employ people on subsistence wages and that will keep wages down generally.
It's obvious Cameron has really got nothing in the negotiations, he was never going to despite all the big talk ahead of them. But he will stillwant to stay in because that is what big business wants.
Everything the EU have offered still depends on being agreed with a vote from all EU members and so will never go our way. Anyone with any balls would have walked away from the negotiations as it is obvious the EU needs us far more than we need them.
From my own perspective, I will be moving very soon to Cyprus, who are in the EU, and as a country that has done pretty well out of joining the EU, no doubt partly due to the massive UK contributions, it would probably be in my interest for the UK to stay in. Also not least because also when I move all my stuff over there will be no import duty to pay as both countries are in the EU. Before Cyprus joined the EU I would have been hit for some major import duties by the Cyprus government. However, as a Brit and considering the interests of the U.K. alone I now feel we would be better off getting out. |  | | |
| Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 10:38 - Feb 20 with 2474 views | Dorse |
| Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 10:00 - Feb 20 by essextaxiboy |
He has had the courage of his convictions , putting aside his personal friendship with DC aside to do what he thinks is right . You are not cynical but you do have a grudge. Even if he made errors in Education does that make him wrong now ?
Has there been an Education Minister that the teachers havent scrapped with ?
Contrary to your belief I think he is a massive boost to the out campaign. |
A grudge? Me? Shall we say, pistols at dawn, sir?
I take your point and, in general, I have nothing but respect for what I would deem 'conscience politicians' (think, say, Ann Widdecombe).
Most issues within education are fairly minor and most Education Ministers are decent sorts. He, on the other hand, went in and attempted to undermine everything that successive generations of students had achieved by claiming that it was in some way a dumbing down / race to the bottom caused by exam board competition. This calls into question student attainment and he laid that at the door of the profession. In order to change this he introduces more testing in Primaries, even to the point that my local Primary is asking the pre-School to teach school-level EYFS to 3 and 4 year olds prior to School. Not for the benefit of the student, but to potentially raise the School's measurement in government statistics.
SATS and levels of attainment in Primaries are all-encompassing. They coach and coach and coach again to ensure students get the standard they're after on one single day of their KS1 / 2 lives. My son's class, going from KS1 to 2 spent, I kid you not, 3 weeks doing nothing but numeracy and literacy prior to assessment. No PE. No Art. No Humanities. No PSHE. No Music. Not even any Science. Once they got what they were after, everything else came back. And for what? As soon as they get to Secondary, they do CAT tests which often show up the holes in this game. The only reason the Primaries do it, is to tick government boxes not to ensure the rounded education of the child.
Students in mainstream Secondaries were assessed to National Levels (1-8) in KS3. These, they scrapped with no replacement. Let me repeat that. Our children will be assessed locally to no agreed standard other than that of the Head or Governors. What. The. Fcuk.
He tried to bully the Ebacc through the system which effectively devalued every subject that wasn't English, Maths, Science or a Language. Even the Humanities, that all students sit (RE, Geog, Hist) weren't given equal status! It was kicked into the long grass because the Schools pointed out that they already measured student progress in those terms anyway!!! Why? Because the government had already imposed it as the measurement good attainment (5 GCSEs, C and above, including Maths and English. The other measurement by RAISE Online is in 5 GCSEs - English (Lang, Lit), Science (Double) and Maths).
Add to this the sheer piss-up in a brewery situation of telling all exam boards to 'make their exams tougher', changing the attainment banding to 1-9 and then changing their minds about what it is, exactly, they want to measure hasn't helped any student attain anything. The level of student attainment hasn't gone up. It is simply measured differently. If the measurement is skewed and attainment levels drop, it will not be his problem.
People are paying (in London) c.£69 p/h to have their kids tutored because class sizes have got bigger and bigger and the profession is haemorrhaging experienced and 'Outstanding' teachers. Just the marking is getting ridiculous.
I am leaving because of the way that I nearly, literally, killed myself in that job. It has had a massive effect on my mental health and on my family. I only teach part-time in two of my local Schools. The first of them, is one at which I was an HoD and Asst Year Head, prior to my move to my last place. They called me and asked if I wanted to come back on my terms. Of course I said yes. The other is a special school with kids who have complex learning difficulties and, in some cases, severe physical impairment.
I am leaving the game to people who still have the energy to fight people like Gove. I wish them all the very best. Stay focused on the kids.
Sorry Essex - didn't mean to unload on you there. Rant over. See why I don't get involved now?  |  |
| 'What do we want? We don't know! When do we want it? Now!' |
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| Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 10:47 - Feb 20 with 2465 views | Nov77 |
is this union based purely on geographical location? never understood why twenty six different countries, with 26 different languages and 26 different cultures thought political and social union would work. The assumption of staying in meaning we would have 'a voice' in europe is laughable, we get outvoted every time
Productive northern european countries promising to cover the debts of less productive southern european countries was a great idea wasn't it? no wonder the greeks had such a party.
as for freedom of movement, well freedom of movement doesn't mean equal movement, you are always going to get people from less desirable locations moving to where they think they will be better off. thats ok in manageable numbers, but unlimited? Was any thought given to the consequences on infrastructure, housing, services caused by such increased relocation?
Then there is the question of being in charge of your own destiny, why don't North America seek a political union with the south american countries? the idea seems absurd, but we are expected to hand over our right to self determination to a bunch of unelected eurocrats who are so dishonest that their financial accounts have never been signed off
I hope everyone ignores the rhetoric of the self interested politicians who will try and persuade you that what's good for them is good for you (never ask a barber if they think you need a haircut). we already pay one lot of shysters in westminster to make decisions for us, why are we are having to pay another load of unelected politicians who we can't even vote out?
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| Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 10:48 - Feb 20 with 2465 views | billericaydicky |
| Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 09:20 - Feb 20 by distortR |
We're in for a torrid time, fact and counter fact, statistics and lies.
We had kinnock telling us that we'd be mad to leave, the eu counts for over 50% of our exports but a much smaller % of imports. But on the other hand, we have a £ balance of trade deficit with the eu.
I do take exception to the view that outers are fat tories, there are good left wing reasons to leave, and capitalistic reasons to stay.
Is free movement simply in place to keep wages down?
I've got too much free time at work at the moment, and am working my way through the sharpe novels. He'd sort it out. Wouldn't it be nice to have someone you can relate to handling our negotiations? Not career politicians, hogs with their snouts in the trough. Maybe the real issue is the corruption that seems to pervade everything?
Personally, I would love to see frank fields leading the labour party. Won't happen though. |
Kinnock telling us we'd be mad to leave? Quelle surprise! He and his family have their noses well and truly in the European trough. Lord Hypocrite of Tredegar.
Goldman Sachs Et al throwing money at the In campaign was significant for me.
Good debate to be had and some strange bed fellows on both sides.
I'm still out.
Come on u Rsss! |  | | |
| Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 11:26 - Feb 20 with 2420 views | ozexile |
I'm too far away to have a valid opinion. But fantastic debate guys to listen to all sides. This is why I love this site. | | | |
| Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 11:26 - Feb 20 with 2420 views | Gloucs_R |
We allow and continue to allow immigrants to claim benefits for children not living in this country. Utter madness. | |
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| Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 11:57 - Feb 20 with 2399 views | SomersetHoops |
| Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 08:28 - Feb 20 by JAPRANGERS |
Can't vote butttt if I could, it would be OUT OUT OUT.
I shall watch from afar. |
Well I'm at my place in France right now heading back later today. What I can't understand is the way the British government and courts show so much deference to Europe and its rules and laws. The French tend to ignore or re-interpret what doesn't suit them and so do many other countries in the EU, but we rigidly accept them and implement them. For example the Muslim face masks are not permitted in France. Not that France is perfect but its interface between local and national government is far better than ours. The French get issued for free a national identity card that allows then unrestricted travel throughout Europe. All the talk in Britain about the human rights issues regarding identity cards don't mention the benefits other countries with them enjoy and I think to some extent its to retain the extortionate rate we are charged for passports.
There is a lot of talk about us adopting lower alcohol driving limits, but although the limit in France is lower if you are caught and unless are massively over the limit, its just a few points on your licence. If we are to stay in Europe we need to learn how to bend the rules as our European partners do.
My view is that Cameron should not be going to Europe 'cap in hand' to ask for his pathetic list of slight variations. Rather he should go there and tell them what we really want as a minimum: Superiority of British courts over any other, reintroduction of our choice of who we let into our country, reintroduction of our rights to control fishing in our waters and the right to control dumping of food, steel and other products into our market to support our own producers and factories. It seems to me that we could have a close, but looser arrangement with the rest of Europe based on these principals and we would be a better country for it.
If we vote out I am likely to find it more difficult to visit my French property, although President Hollande has increased taxes for overseas owners of French property to suggest he doesn't want us anyway, although we have found the French people in our area to be very helpful and friendly. I am torn between the in or out options, but would vote in in the unlikely event we would take a more flexible European attitude to the rules that don't suit us. |  |
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| Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 12:10 - Feb 20 with 2384 views | Doughnut |
Dear oh dear...the whole thing is so very choreographed .
Step 1 :Give the rabble a vote to show how 'democratic' we all are
Step 2 : Go to Europe and pretend we're negotiating hard for Britain...what a hero DC is!!
Step 3: Come out and announce that 'in spite of some hard negotiating we've got a fantastic deal'..what a suprise!!!
Step 4: Announce a referendum date (which strangely enough, is already known by the media tosserati)
Step 4: Get said media tosserati/poling agencies...etc to show what a near run thing it's gonna be...'could go either way'
Step 5 : Have referendum and get the people to rubber stamp the whole thing with the seal of 'democracy'
Step 6: Announce the stay in campaign has won, after all and carry on as normal!
Cameron has had armies of civil servants working on this for months....just so he can say its all above board and YOU voted for it.
It doesnt matter what you vote for..the outcomes been agreed already! |  | | |
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