| Match Thread - Northampton Away (FA Cup) 13:57 - Nov 8 with 19656 views | ChaffRAFC |
Teams when they come through. |  |
| If I hadn't seen such riches, I could live with being poor |
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| Match Thread - Northampton Away (FA Cup) on 21:46 - Nov 9 with 1728 views | TVOS1907 |
| Match Thread - Northampton Away (FA Cup) on 21:40 - Nov 9 by Nafelad |
Just like them all to know the laws, and especially the wording of the laws, and apply them consistently. |
I'm fairly sure they wouldn't be where they are without knowing the Laws.
Take the Joe Hart incident yesterday, for instance.
And they are the only impartial people in the stadium, whatever people think. |  |
| When I was your age, I used to enjoy the odd game of tennis. Or was it golf? |
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| Match Thread - Northampton Away (FA Cup) on 21:53 - Nov 9 with 1712 views | Nafelad |
| Match Thread - Northampton Away (FA Cup) on 21:46 - Nov 9 by TVOS1907 |
I'm fairly sure they wouldn't be where they are without knowing the Laws.
Take the Joe Hart incident yesterday, for instance.
And they are the only impartial people in the stadium, whatever people think. |
Perhaps, after another 60 years of watching , I'll learn to think like you. |  |
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| Match Thread - Northampton Away (FA Cup) on 22:01 - Nov 9 with 1696 views | TVOS1907 |
| Match Thread - Northampton Away (FA Cup) on 21:53 - Nov 9 by Nafelad |
Perhaps, after another 60 years of watching , I'll learn to think like you. |
60? I was thinking more in the region of 62. | |
| When I was your age, I used to enjoy the odd game of tennis. Or was it golf? |
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| Match Thread - Northampton Away (FA Cup) on 22:13 - Nov 9 with 1658 views | love_the_dale |
http://www.fifa.com/aboutfifa/footballdevelopment/technicalsupport/refereeing/la
Page 36
Law 12 — Fouls and Misconduct
Sending-off offences -
"A player, substitute or substituted player is sent off if he commits any of the following seven offences:"
(The one which is relevant here is) -
"- violent conduct"
Page 61 -
Interpretation of the Laws of
the Game and Guidelines for Referees
Page 127 -
"A player is guilty of violent conduct if he uses excessive force or brutality
against an opponent when not challenging for the ball."
"A player, substitute or substituted player who is guilty of violent conduct must be sent off."
Before we can discuss the meaning of "excessive force or brutality", we need to know does it mean "(excessive force) or (brutality)" or does it mean "excessive (force or brutality)"? We also need to know what the lawmakers mean by "force" and what they mean by "brutality". The Interpretation of the Law is not doing a very good job and it is no wonder there are so many different understandings among players, spectators, referees and pundits. In addition it would be a good idea for FIFA to produce a video of real incidents, saying "this is an ignore","this is a talking to", "this is yellow", "this is red". |  | | |
| Match Thread - Northampton Away (FA Cup) on 01:30 - Nov 10 with 1561 views | Brierls |
| Match Thread - Northampton Away (FA Cup) on 20:47 - Nov 9 by Nafelad |
Good example of inconsistency yesterday: George kicks opponent violently - red card. Hendo flicks out his foot towards opponent - red card. |
Eh? How is that an example of inconsistency? Both players kicked out, both players received red cards!?!? |  | | |
| Match Thread - Northampton Away (FA Cup) on 09:51 - Nov 10 with 1478 views | ParkinsGimp |
Donnellys was very violent , but still no argument if you lash out you get red.
We now need to sort it out for the replay if we get a tasty 2nd round draw.
My worry is we might see Andrew on the pitch seeing as Bunney had another sub standard showing. |  | | |
| Match Thread - Northampton Away (FA Cup) on 09:53 - Nov 10 with 1471 views | Nafelad |
| Match Thread - Northampton Away (FA Cup) on 01:30 - Nov 10 by Brierls |
Eh? How is that an example of inconsistency? Both players kicked out, both players received red cards!?!? |
The answer is in the earlier posts on this thread: George's kick was with excessive force and made contact with the opponent, and therefore deserved red according to the wording of the law. Hendo's kick was not (the opponent's minimal reaction showed that Hendo hadn't made contact (or hardly made any contact - watch the You Tube clip).
The 'inconsistency' is that one referee applies the law, as it is worded, correctly, but the other does not.
As someone else posted, the law in this case is open to too much interpretation by the referee. Different referees seem to have in inconsistent view of what is excessive or 'brutal' force. A different referee could have gone to Hendo and warned him, or given him a yellow card. Saturday's referee rushed over, as if to 'nip in the bud' any over-reaction by players involved, but he had a red card out before he got there. I'm sure he saw the kick-out, but was in such a rush to get the red card out, that he didn't weigh up whether it was excessive or brutal. | |
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| Match Thread - Northampton Away (FA Cup) on 10:01 - Nov 10 with 1449 views | TVOS1907 |
| Match Thread - Northampton Away (FA Cup) on 09:53 - Nov 10 by Nafelad |
The answer is in the earlier posts on this thread: George's kick was with excessive force and made contact with the opponent, and therefore deserved red according to the wording of the law. Hendo's kick was not (the opponent's minimal reaction showed that Hendo hadn't made contact (or hardly made any contact - watch the You Tube clip).
The 'inconsistency' is that one referee applies the law, as it is worded, correctly, but the other does not.
As someone else posted, the law in this case is open to too much interpretation by the referee. Different referees seem to have in inconsistent view of what is excessive or 'brutal' force. A different referee could have gone to Hendo and warned him, or given him a yellow card. Saturday's referee rushed over, as if to 'nip in the bud' any over-reaction by players involved, but he had a red card out before he got there. I'm sure he saw the kick-out, but was in such a rush to get the red card out, that he didn't weigh up whether it was excessive or brutal. |
He didn't rush at all. He strolled over as though he was on a Sunday afternoon meander over the hills. You've been listening to our manager too much. | |
| When I was your age, I used to enjoy the odd game of tennis. Or was it golf? |
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| Match Thread - Northampton Away (FA Cup) on 10:13 - Nov 10 with 1432 views | Brierls |
| Match Thread - Northampton Away (FA Cup) on 09:53 - Nov 10 by Nafelad |
The answer is in the earlier posts on this thread: George's kick was with excessive force and made contact with the opponent, and therefore deserved red according to the wording of the law. Hendo's kick was not (the opponent's minimal reaction showed that Hendo hadn't made contact (or hardly made any contact - watch the You Tube clip).
The 'inconsistency' is that one referee applies the law, as it is worded, correctly, but the other does not.
As someone else posted, the law in this case is open to too much interpretation by the referee. Different referees seem to have in inconsistent view of what is excessive or 'brutal' force. A different referee could have gone to Hendo and warned him, or given him a yellow card. Saturday's referee rushed over, as if to 'nip in the bud' any over-reaction by players involved, but he had a red card out before he got there. I'm sure he saw the kick-out, but was in such a rush to get the red card out, that he didn't weigh up whether it was excessive or brutal. |
I've read the earlier posts. Your ability to C&P the laws of the game are admirable, but I'm really not sure where you're going with comments on inconsistency. It would be been inconsistent if Donnelly had been sent off but Hendo not, or vice versa. Both players needlessly gave the referee a decision to make, and both players were sent off. It really is that simple.
How do you propose the laws of the game are amended so it leaves less to the interpretation of the referee? Does a player have to make contact? Draw blood? Inflict injury? If so, a player could attempt to roundhouse an opponent, but miss, and escape with a talking to! There's nothing wrong with the law, players know what they can and can't get away with.
I've seen the You Tube clip, and my first thought was "fair play to the Northampton player(s) for not overreacting and surrounding the referee". I didn't see the incident at the time, and as Hilly said it's handbags, but we really can't complain because Hendo did kick out. | | | |
| Match Thread - Northampton Away (FA Cup) on 10:26 - Nov 10 with 1416 views | Nafelad |
| Match Thread - Northampton Away (FA Cup) on 10:13 - Nov 10 by Brierls |
I've read the earlier posts. Your ability to C&P the laws of the game are admirable, but I'm really not sure where you're going with comments on inconsistency. It would be been inconsistent if Donnelly had been sent off but Hendo not, or vice versa. Both players needlessly gave the referee a decision to make, and both players were sent off. It really is that simple.
How do you propose the laws of the game are amended so it leaves less to the interpretation of the referee? Does a player have to make contact? Draw blood? Inflict injury? If so, a player could attempt to roundhouse an opponent, but miss, and escape with a talking to! There's nothing wrong with the law, players know what they can and can't get away with.
I've seen the You Tube clip, and my first thought was "fair play to the Northampton player(s) for not overreacting and surrounding the referee". I didn't see the incident at the time, and as Hilly said it's handbags, but we really can't complain because Hendo did kick out. |
I would agree with you, and others sharing your opinion, if the law simply said kicking out at an opponent, whether making contact or not, is a red card offence. (But the law doesn't say that - which is the point I am trying to make). | |
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| Match Thread - Northampton Away (FA Cup) on 11:27 - Nov 10 with 1373 views | D_Alien |
| Match Thread - Northampton Away (FA Cup) on 10:26 - Nov 10 by Nafelad |
I would agree with you, and others sharing your opinion, if the law simply said kicking out at an opponent, whether making contact or not, is a red card offence. (But the law doesn't say that - which is the point I am trying to make). |
Is there a law on the appropriate punishment for beheading an opponent?
Ridiculous? Yes, but only by making provision for every eventuality can there be no room for interpretation.
That's why referees have to make a decision and if players give them cause to invoke the law they've only got themselves to blame. |  |
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| Match Thread - Northampton Away (FA Cup) on 12:06 - Nov 10 with 1338 views | Nafelad |
| Match Thread - Northampton Away (FA Cup) on 11:27 - Nov 10 by D_Alien |
Is there a law on the appropriate punishment for beheading an opponent?
Ridiculous? Yes, but only by making provision for every eventuality can there be no room for interpretation.
That's why referees have to make a decision and if players give them cause to invoke the law they've only got themselves to blame. |
I agree with you on this. So, as Hendo's kick-out was NOT an excessive or brutal one, he didn't 'invoke' the law that describes the kind of aggressive, violent action deserving a red card. In other words, Hendo's action should have been dealt with according to other laws about unsporting or ungentlemanly behaviour, deserving cautions or yellow cards. | |
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| Match Thread - Northampton Away (FA Cup) on 12:10 - Nov 10 with 1330 views | Scunnydale |
| Match Thread - Northampton Away (FA Cup) on 12:06 - Nov 10 by Nafelad |
I agree with you on this. So, as Hendo's kick-out was NOT an excessive or brutal one, he didn't 'invoke' the law that describes the kind of aggressive, violent action deserving a red card. In other words, Hendo's action should have been dealt with according to other laws about unsporting or ungentlemanly behaviour, deserving cautions or yellow cards. |
Aiming a kick at someone seems a bit excessive to me, whether he connected or not.
He was given a red, the lack of conclusive video evidence to support an appeal would suggest he's going to miss three games.
Let's move on. |  | | |
| Match Thread - Northampton Away (FA Cup) on 12:14 - Nov 10 with 1321 views | D_Alien |
| Match Thread - Northampton Away (FA Cup) on 12:06 - Nov 10 by Nafelad |
I agree with you on this. So, as Hendo's kick-out was NOT an excessive or brutal one, he didn't 'invoke' the law that describes the kind of aggressive, violent action deserving a red card. In other words, Hendo's action should have been dealt with according to other laws about unsporting or ungentlemanly behaviour, deserving cautions or yellow cards. |
But just to take the extreme example to illustrate why you're wrong:
If a player flicked a sword towards an opponents neck but missed, would the ref not be entitled to produce a red card since the intent was to behead?
If you can answer "No" to the above, you're right. If not, you're wrong. | |
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| Match Thread - Northampton Away (FA Cup) on 12:23 - Nov 10 with 1297 views | Nafelad |
| Match Thread - Northampton Away (FA Cup) on 12:14 - Nov 10 by D_Alien |
But just to take the extreme example to illustrate why you're wrong:
If a player flicked a sword towards an opponents neck but missed, would the ref not be entitled to produce a red card since the intent was to behead?
If you can answer "No" to the above, you're right. If not, you're wrong. |
Think everyone will be pleased to know that I am going to burn my copy of laws of the game. | |
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| Match Thread - Northampton Away (FA Cup) on 12:30 - Nov 10 with 1284 views | D_Alien |
| Match Thread - Northampton Away (FA Cup) on 12:23 - Nov 10 by Nafelad |
Think everyone will be pleased to know that I am going to burn my copy of laws of the game. |
Do it gently. | |
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| Match Thread - Northampton Away (FA Cup) on 12:39 - Nov 10 with 1270 views | 442Dale |
| Match Thread - Northampton Away (FA Cup) on 12:30 - Nov 10 by D_Alien |
Do it gently. |
Doesn't matter, it would still be more than is necessary or normal and therefore excessive. |  |
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| Match Thread - Northampton Away (FA Cup) on 13:24 - Nov 10 with 1224 views | dingdangblue |
| Match Thread - Northampton Away (FA Cup) on 21:17 - Nov 9 by TVOS1907 |
If Donnelly had still been with Dale, people would have said it was the wrong decision.
Coventry's 'keeper also sent-off for kicking out an opponent. Seems ours was the only wrong one again. |
Disagree - Donnelly really swung a boot at their player and shoved him into the advertising hoardings - Id imagine we'd be calling him a stupid prick. Henderson was stupid for aiming a flick at their player but it really looks like a nothing incident on Cols video link - certainly not serious foul play when you consider some of the hefty challenges you see that get yellow cards each week. |  |
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| Match Thread - Northampton Away (FA Cup) on 13:32 - Nov 10 with 1217 views | Nafelad |
Dingdangblue, wish you'd posted a lot earlier, when everyone else was disagreeing with my opinion! [Post edited 10 Nov 2014 13:35]
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| Match Thread - Northampton Away (FA Cup) on 14:24 - Nov 10 with 1172 views | D_Alien |
| Match Thread - Northampton Away (FA Cup) on 13:32 - Nov 10 by Nafelad |
Dingdangblue, wish you'd posted a lot earlier, when everyone else was disagreeing with my opinion! [Post edited 10 Nov 2014 13:35]
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Unfortunately, dingdangblue's point isn't relevant in this case.
The hefty challenges he refers to are when the players are competing for the ball.
The ball wasn't in play when Hendo committed the act that got him red carded.
[Post edited 10 Nov 2014 14:26]
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| Match Thread - Northampton Away (FA Cup) on 15:05 - Nov 10 with 1124 views | dingdangblue |
| Match Thread - Northampton Away (FA Cup) on 14:24 - Nov 10 by D_Alien |
Unfortunately, dingdangblue's point isn't relevant in this case.
The hefty challenges he refers to are when the players are competing for the ball.
The ball wasn't in play when Hendo committed the act that got him red carded.
[Post edited 10 Nov 2014 14:26]
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The relevance of comparing Donnelly's act and Henderson's still stands though - No one in there right mind could defend what Donnelly did had he still been here. | |
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| Match Thread - Northampton Away (FA Cup) on 15:08 - Nov 10 with 1122 views | D_Alien |
| Match Thread - Northampton Away (FA Cup) on 15:05 - Nov 10 by dingdangblue |
The relevance of comparing Donnelly's act and Henderson's still stands though - No one in there right mind could defend what Donnelly did had he still been here. |
Totally agree, it's just hillanddale's use of your "hefty challenge" point to support his case that wasn't relevant - I should've made that clear | |
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| Match Thread - Northampton Away (FA Cup) on 15:16 - Nov 10 with 1105 views | TVOS1907 |
| Match Thread - Northampton Away (FA Cup) on 13:24 - Nov 10 by dingdangblue |
Disagree - Donnelly really swung a boot at their player and shoved him into the advertising hoardings - Id imagine we'd be calling him a stupid prick. Henderson was stupid for aiming a flick at their player but it really looks like a nothing incident on Cols video link - certainly not serious foul play when you consider some of the hefty challenges you see that get yellow cards each week. |
My post was more tongue in cheek than anything else, as every red card we've had since the start of last season seems to have been wrong in a lot of eyes.
Donnelly obviously can't kick with the same finesse as Henderson, either. | |
| When I was your age, I used to enjoy the odd game of tennis. Or was it golf? |
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| Match Thread - Northampton Away (FA Cup) on 16:01 - Nov 10 with 1065 views | Nafelad |
| Match Thread - Northampton Away (FA Cup) on 14:24 - Nov 10 by D_Alien |
Unfortunately, dingdangblue's point isn't relevant in this case.
The hefty challenges he refers to are when the players are competing for the ball.
The ball wasn't in play when Hendo committed the act that got him red carded.
[Post edited 10 Nov 2014 14:26]
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The ball wasn't in play when Donnelly made his hefty challenge.
But, no matter, I've burnt my laws of the game book, and will believe all the referees' decisions are correct in future. | |
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| Match Thread - Northampton Away (FA Cup) on 16:28 - Nov 10 with 1037 views | D_Alien |
| Match Thread - Northampton Away (FA Cup) on 16:01 - Nov 10 by Nafelad |
The ball wasn't in play when Donnelly made his hefty challenge.
But, no matter, I've burnt my laws of the game book, and will believe all the referees' decisions are correct in future. |
Donnelly didn't make a hefty challenge though, he made an assault off the ball.
Hendo also tried to make an assault off the ball.
Your burnt law book won't make referees any less liable to get things wrong in the future, it's just they didn't in this case. | |
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