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Match Thread - Northampton Away (FA Cup) on 12:55 - Nov 9 by TVOS1907
Doesn't matter if there was contact or not. Aiming a kick at an opponent with no intention to play the ball, however trivial, is a sending-off offence. I'm afraid Henderson was guilty of that.
Why are all our red cards deemed as wrong decisions?
[Post edited 9 Nov 2014 12:58]
I agree that it doesn't matter whether there is contact or not. However, for a RED card, it has to be violent. The Laws of the Game define this as "A player is guilty of violent conduct if he uses excessive force or brutality against an opponent when not challenging for the ball." Flicking out with a foot does not fall under this definition. It should have been a YELLOW. Having said that, I agree with the people who said that it is something that he needs to cut out of his game.
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Match Thread - Northampton Away (FA Cup) on 15:22 - Nov 9 with 1922 views
Match Thread - Northampton Away (FA Cup) on 15:07 - Nov 9 by love_the_dale
I agree that it doesn't matter whether there is contact or not. However, for a RED card, it has to be violent. The Laws of the Game define this as "A player is guilty of violent conduct if he uses excessive force or brutality against an opponent when not challenging for the ball." Flicking out with a foot does not fall under this definition. It should have been a YELLOW. Having said that, I agree with the people who said that it is something that he needs to cut out of his game.
Well in the absence of any video footage, unless another camera angle has emerged, we're going to have to go with what we saw at the time. I said straight away to R17, "He's going off here."
If he hadn't done it and just walked away after the most insignifcant of nudges from Tozer, he wouldn't have given the referee any decision to make.
When I was your age, I used to enjoy the odd game of tennis. Or was it golf?
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Match Thread - Northampton Away (FA Cup) on 15:29 - Nov 9 with 1912 views
Match Thread - Northampton Away (FA Cup) on 15:07 - Nov 9 by love_the_dale
I agree that it doesn't matter whether there is contact or not. However, for a RED card, it has to be violent. The Laws of the Game define this as "A player is guilty of violent conduct if he uses excessive force or brutality against an opponent when not challenging for the ball." Flicking out with a foot does not fall under this definition. It should have been a YELLOW. Having said that, I agree with the people who said that it is something that he needs to cut out of his game.
Sorry love-the-dale, but at the risk of repeating something I've posted in another thread:
It's all very well agreeing that it'd be a good idea for Hendo to cut out the retaliatory foot flick from his game, just like Christmas and apple pie are nice ideas; but it's a basic part of the make-up of instinctive people that they can't do so, or at least not easily.
I'm sure we'd all agree that Hendo will be giving himself a severe talking to, but will it help next time an opponent rattles him? Almost certainly not. The very instinctiveness that allows him to score great goals will almost certainly prevent him from being able to restrain himself in the millisecond it takes to flick his foot out when he feels an opponent is preventing him from playing the beautiful game.
Match Thread - Northampton Away (FA Cup) on 15:22 - Nov 9 by TVOS1907
Well in the absence of any video footage, unless another camera angle has emerged, we're going to have to go with what we saw at the time. I said straight away to R17, "He's going off here."
If he hadn't done it and just walked away after the most insignifcant of nudges from Tozer, he wouldn't have given the referee any decision to make.
My previous post, where I quoted the Laws, was a response to the statement - "Doesn't matter if there was contact or not. Aiming a kick at an opponent with no intention to play the ball, however trivial, is a sending-off offence. I'm afraid Henderson was guilty of that." To requote, for a red it has to be "excessive force or brutality", and it DOES matter how trivial the offence is.
With respect, I think by saying - "Well in the absence of any video footage, unless another camera angle has emerged, we're going to have to go with what we saw at the time." you are now agreeing with my post. I thought it was a flick, you thought it was excessive force or brutality. One of us is wrong in what our observation, but that is academic to the discussion as to whether the triviality or otherwise come into it.
We are also agreed and I said so in a previous post that "If he hadn't done it and just walked away after the most insignifcant of nudges from Tozer, he wouldn't have given the referee any decision to make."
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Match Thread - Northampton Away (FA Cup) on 16:23 - Nov 9 with 1839 views
Match Thread - Northampton Away (FA Cup) on 16:13 - Nov 9 by love_the_dale
My previous post, where I quoted the Laws, was a response to the statement - "Doesn't matter if there was contact or not. Aiming a kick at an opponent with no intention to play the ball, however trivial, is a sending-off offence. I'm afraid Henderson was guilty of that." To requote, for a red it has to be "excessive force or brutality", and it DOES matter how trivial the offence is.
With respect, I think by saying - "Well in the absence of any video footage, unless another camera angle has emerged, we're going to have to go with what we saw at the time." you are now agreeing with my post. I thought it was a flick, you thought it was excessive force or brutality. One of us is wrong in what our observation, but that is academic to the discussion as to whether the triviality or otherwise come into it.
We are also agreed and I said so in a previous post that "If he hadn't done it and just walked away after the most insignifcant of nudges from Tozer, he wouldn't have given the referee any decision to make."
I'm confused now whether you think I agree or disagree with you!
All I know is that at the time of the incident, I thought it was a sending-off and I stand by that as I can only post on my memory of what I saw at the time.
When I was your age, I used to enjoy the odd game of tennis. Or was it golf?
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Match Thread - Northampton Away (FA Cup) on 17:22 - Nov 9 with 1798 views
Match Thread - Northampton Away (FA Cup) on 12:55 - Nov 9 by TVOS1907
Doesn't matter if there was contact or not. Aiming a kick at an opponent with no intention to play the ball, however trivial, is a sending-off offence. I'm afraid Henderson was guilty of that.
Why are all our red cards deemed as wrong decisions?
[Post edited 9 Nov 2014 12:58]
Good point. If an opposition player did that to one of our players, we would want/expect them to be sent off. That is the law of the game. It is up to Kieth Hill, and other managers to campaign that such incidents are not deemed as sending off offenses, IF they think like that. Otherwise instruct their players to not be so petulant, and accept the decision. Maybe such incidents should not be classed as sending offs, but they are, well at least sometimes they are, so one has to play to the rules of the game, as they are, not how we would like them to be.
IF KH belongs it was a wrong sending off, then appeal the red card-simple put up or shut up. Obviously he can't if no video evidence to back up his thoughts.
Just to add, the 3 game ban is enough punishment, I do not think Hendo needs a fine as well now. Well done Dale in getting through the tie.
Match Thread - Northampton Away (FA Cup) on 16:23 - Nov 9 by TVOS1907
I'm confused now whether you think I agree or disagree with you!
All I know is that at the time of the incident, I thought it was a sending-off and I stand by that as I can only post on my memory of what I saw at the time.
We are only disagreed in what we observed. I saw it as flick. You saw it as violent, as defined by the laws - excessive force or brutality. People often see events differently, as do cameras when they are at different angles.
Otherwise, I think we are totally agreed. If the kick was a flick, it was a yellow, whether contact was made or not. If the kick was violent (see above), it was a red, whether contact was made or not.
Match Thread - Northampton Away (FA Cup) on 17:35 - Nov 9 by love_the_dale
We are only disagreed in what we observed. I saw it as flick. You saw it as violent, as defined by the laws - excessive force or brutality. People often see events differently, as do cameras when they are at different angles.
Otherwise, I think we are totally agreed. If the kick was a flick, it was a yellow, whether contact was made or not. If the kick was violent (see above), it was a red, whether contact was made or not.
Very best wishes.
It seems we had yet another referee who doesn't know/read the laws of the game. What we all know is that nothing will happen to the referee.
Topcat
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Match Thread - Northampton Away (FA Cup) on 19:31 - Nov 9 with 1663 views
The evidence is in the strength of the kick - if Hendo's kick was violent or excessive then red was correct, but his kick wasn't and neither was the red card.
Topcat
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Match Thread - Northampton Away (FA Cup) on 19:51 - Nov 9 with 1610 views
Match Thread - Northampton Away (FA Cup) on 19:53 - Nov 9 by ColDale
its just about on here
He gives the ref a decision to make. Excessive force is all about interpretation of a situation, eg. when a player raise his hands or head into an opponents face there needn't be any force (not that the recipient won't use it to go down as though they're marking Mike Tyson).
Dictionary definition of excessive is more than is necessary, normal or desirable. What happened when the ball went out of play was more than was necessary, normal or desirable.
Match Thread - Northampton Away (FA Cup) on 19:58 - Nov 9 by 442Dale
He gives the ref a decision to make. Excessive force is all about interpretation of a situation, eg. when a player raise his hands or head into an opponents face there needn't be any force (not that the recipient won't use it to go down as though they're marking Mike Tyson).
Dictionary definition of excessive is more than is necessary, normal or desirable. What happened when the ball went out of play was more than was necessary, normal or desirable.
If the law said kicking out at an opponent is a red card offence, then I agree. The law, as currently worded, leaves it open to the referee's interpretation of what constitutes violence, etc, so there'll not be any consistency in referees' decisions.
Topcat
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Match Thread - Northampton Away (FA Cup) on 20:19 - Nov 9 with 1503 views
Seems like Northampton has become the place where Dale players get sent off on the whim of referees - Lund last season for celebrating his goal - Hendo this season for not kicking someone, good job we won't have to play there again this year.
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Match Thread - Northampton Away (FA Cup) on 20:47 - Nov 9 with 1462 views
Match Thread - Northampton Away (FA Cup) on 20:19 - Nov 9 by 49thseason
Seems like Northampton has become the place where Dale players get sent off on the whim of referees - Lund last season for celebrating his goal - Hendo this season for not kicking someone, good job we won't have to play there again this year.
But as 442 says, it's poor decision-making by our players.
Henderson DID kick out at their player and therefore ran the risk of being sent-off.
Last season Lund, who was already on a yellow card, went and celebrated his goal with the fans. Whether we agree or not (and there are very good reasons to stop crowds surging forward, whether it be 10 fans or 10000 fans), it can be a cautionable offence if the referee feels it is an excessive celebration or one that delays the restart of the game.
This is something I have followed quite closely on the highlights this season and yellow cards seem to have been issued for similar celebrations every time.
Minutes after that particular incident in March, with Dale 3-0 up, Donnelly got himself a yellow card by kicking the ball away. Poor decision-making.
Yesterday, Lund did the same at the far end of the ground and picked up a needless yellow card. Poor decision-making.
Our players are great and have given us so much pleasure over the last year or so, but, like all players, they aren't perfect, nor beyond reproach.
And we can't have Laws of the Game that only apply to opponents.
When I was your age, I used to enjoy the odd game of tennis. Or was it golf?
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Match Thread - Northampton Away (FA Cup) on 21:09 - Nov 9 with 1416 views
And poor decision making by referees. If the wording of the law had been applied to Hendo and the referee had made a good interpretation of his action, then it shouldn't have been a red card - IMO.
Topcat
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Match Thread - Northampton Away (FA Cup) on 21:17 - Nov 9 with 1392 views
Match Thread - Northampton Away (FA Cup) on 21:09 - Nov 9 by Nafelad
And poor decision making by referees. If the wording of the law had been applied to Hendo and the referee had made a good interpretation of his action, then it shouldn't have been a red card - IMO.
They've obviously all got it in for us. All we need to do now is replace Hill with Neil Warnock.
When I was your age, I used to enjoy the odd game of tennis. Or was it golf?
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Match Thread - Northampton Away (FA Cup) on 21:40 - Nov 9 with 1347 views
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