| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 11:41 - Jul 26 with 2135 views | simmo |
Give it a rest, Joey. FFS. |  |
| ask Beavis I get nothing Butthead |
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| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 11:53 - Jul 26 with 2118 views | MrSheen |
| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 10:00 - Jul 26 by kropotkin41 |
The Final Solution (to the "Jewish Question") was not put into action until 1942. Certainly there are parallels between the anti-Jewish policies of Nazi Germany and the anti-Palestinian policies of Israel and certainly some of the rhetoric of the most vehement Zionists.
It's worth knowing that one of the scenarios that the IDF use as a case-study for attacking Gaza is the Warsaw Ghetto Rising; they at least would not deny the analogous situation of the IDF to the Wehrmacht in Poland during WWII.
As for the question of genocide, it is an emotive term. Here are a couple of definitions:
gen·o·cide [jen-uh-sahyd] Show IPA
noun
the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group.
genocide (ˈdʒɛnəʊˌsaɪd)
– n
the policy of deliberately killing a nationality or ethnic group
Now it seems to me that it should be pretty uncontroversial if we examine the history of the Nakba ( http://lostislamichistory.com/the-nakba-the-palestinian-catastrophe-of-1948/ ) and of Israeli policy since we find a deliberate attempt to wipe Palestine from the face of the Earth, often by killing Palestinians in large numbers. This is no different to what has in recent times been called ethnic cleansing, or what we properly call genocide. Even the Nazis were happy to see Jewish people leave in the early days, applying the Final Solution only when getting millions of Polish Jews to actually leave became impossible.
Yes, what Israel has done and is doing to Palestine is genocide, but much like whether it's right to compare these actions to those of Nazi Germany is right or not, these are academic questions; it is the plight of Palestine that is important, the deaths of its children that should move us........... even if only to boycott and speak up against selling arms to or investing in Israel. |
You're torturing some of the definitions here, for instance the idea that "ethnic cleansing" is the same as "genocide". Germans were ethnically cleansed from Eastern Europe after the second world war, but was it genocide? Was the flight of Serbs from Croatia genocide, even though it involved violence and threats? It gets you to the point where you can define Israel as genocidal because of undoubted incidents in the past of ethnic cleansing, while at the same time it has 1.7m non-Jewish citizens (not occupied persons), of whom 85% are Muslims. If it is genocide to wipe the idea of "Palestine" from the face of the earth, I'm not sure what that means. Palestine the independent state never existed, it was always under the dominance of one foreign ruler or other.
I'm also puzzled by some of your historical references. Were the Nazis ever happy to see Jews leave, beyond the happiness of corrupt officials to take bribes to allow a few to escape, and their desire to evict Jews from particular areas they wanted to be Judenrein? Just because the IDF have studied the Warsaw Ghetto rising (some of the founders would have been involved in it) it's a massive leap to say they want same outcome as the Germans there, the death of every single occupant, rather than combatants. As someone has said, Hamas are really trying their hardest to kill ANY Israeli they can, without great success, which isn't the case of their hugely more powerful adversary. [Post edited 26 Jul 2014 11:54]
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| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 13:26 - Jul 26 with 2065 views | Aunt_Nelly |
| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 10:27 - Jul 26 by kysersosaqpr |
Reading the various comments on here, it struck me how most (not all) people seem to strike allegiances along differing polarity. One example of this is over in Belfast. My place of birth is a quite little place called Ardoyne. When last there I noticed Palestinian flags flying next to the tricolour. My cousin explained that the catholic areas generally fly the Palestinian flag next to the tricolour, and the Protestant areas fly the Israeli flag next to the Union Jack.
Weird eh |
It probably stems from the Catholic church's interpretation of the bible and anti-semitic doctrine.
Plus the Micks love a terrorist. Sorry 'freedom fighter'. They've trained up many all over the world, including the Palastinians, in the art of blowing up and killing innocent civilians. [Post edited 26 Jul 2014 16:24]
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| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 14:23 - Jul 26 with 2004 views | kropotkin41 |
| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 10:48 - Jul 26 by Watford_Ranger |
Mate, you can write the longest and most boring article in the world if you want. It won't change the fact that comparing Israel with Nazi Germany is ridiculous and wrong. There's no desire from Israelis/Jews to wipe out Muslims/Palestinians/Arabs (delete as you see fit). On the contrary, Hamas and others are intent on wiping Israel, and realistically Jews altogether, off the map.
Israel has to defend itself and put its own first. It is in an impossible situation. Hypothetically they could remove all restrictions on Gaza but then how long until that freedom is violently exploited? Probably about as long as it takes to write this post. |
I'm sorry to bore you, Watford.
The solution to Hamas was always and still is to lift the occupation and dismantle Israel's Apartheid system, creating either one state for both Jews and Arabs or two equal sovereign states.
You just re-state what you believe without advancing the discussion. I don't deny that there are those in Hamas who want to see Israel destroyed, but there are plenty of Israelis who have been very vocal about their wish to see all Palestinians dead or gone from Palestine.
It's as simple as this, mate, put yourself in the shoes of people who within living memory had their land stolen from them and are still being killed and ghettoised in tiny fragments of a country that should be theirs.
And - oh, am I boring you again? - the history of Muslim tolerance of Jewish people is far and away better than the history of Christian tolerance for either Jews or Muslims, and that's true in Palestine as well. |  |
| ‘morbid curiosity about where this is all going’ |
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| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 15:24 - Jul 26 with 1914 views | bullythebear |
Ah an article from Press TV, great source that...from that bastion of democracy, free speech and a free press... Iran!! |  | | |
| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 15:44 - Jul 26 with 1889 views | Watford_Ranger |
| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 14:23 - Jul 26 by kropotkin41 |
I'm sorry to bore you, Watford.
The solution to Hamas was always and still is to lift the occupation and dismantle Israel's Apartheid system, creating either one state for both Jews and Arabs or two equal sovereign states.
You just re-state what you believe without advancing the discussion. I don't deny that there are those in Hamas who want to see Israel destroyed, but there are plenty of Israelis who have been very vocal about their wish to see all Palestinians dead or gone from Palestine.
It's as simple as this, mate, put yourself in the shoes of people who within living memory had their land stolen from them and are still being killed and ghettoised in tiny fragments of a country that should be theirs.
And - oh, am I boring you again? - the history of Muslim tolerance of Jewish people is far and away better than the history of Christian tolerance for either Jews or Muslims, and that's true in Palestine as well. |
Is that really likely? Would Hamas just happily live either in one state with Israel or merrily alongside or would they just chip away and never allow peace. I've no doubt the average Palestinian and the average Israeli would gladly live next door to each other but personally I see Hamas as being the biggest deterrent to any peaceful solution.
The debate isn't really Jews v Muslims although anti-Israeli sentiment seems to too often become anti-Jew. For me, it's Israel v Palestine and one is represented by a government that refuses to recognise the other's existence.
Who are these Israelis calling for Palestine to be blown off the map (are they even on the map ?)? I've certainly not seen them but have seen numerous times calls for the same to happen to Israel.
Why should the country be "theirs"? What right do they have to it any more than those there now or their ancestors? Why were people happy to sell land to European settlers if they were so desperate to keep hold of it? |  | | |
| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 16:24 - Jul 26 with 1841 views | kysersosaqpr |
| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 13:26 - Jul 26 by Aunt_Nelly |
It probably stems from the Catholic church's interpretation of the bible and anti-semitic doctrine.
Plus the Micks love a terrorist. Sorry 'freedom fighter'. They've trained up many all over the world, including the Palastinians, in the art of blowing up and killing innocent civilians. [Post edited 26 Jul 2014 16:24]
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You may well be right. However it's probably that the N Ireland Protestants align themselves with Glasgow Rangers and Chelscum and for some perverse reason this somehow (don't ask me - ask someone from the Shankill) also links in with Afrikaners and Israel. But as I said your guess is as good as mine.
As an aside, one of the top UDA guys in the Shankill is an Arab (or of Arab descent) and it apparently drives him nuts to see the Israel flag up there.
Oh, and as a further aside the most civilians blown up during the troubles in a single incident was in Dublin - allegedly a UDA/UVF plot. Can't seem to remember who trained that lot.....??? Sure it'll come to me. | |
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| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 16:40 - Jul 26 with 1833 views | Aunt_Nelly |
| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 16:24 - Jul 26 by kysersosaqpr |
You may well be right. However it's probably that the N Ireland Protestants align themselves with Glasgow Rangers and Chelscum and for some perverse reason this somehow (don't ask me - ask someone from the Shankill) also links in with Afrikaners and Israel. But as I said your guess is as good as mine.
As an aside, one of the top UDA guys in the Shankill is an Arab (or of Arab descent) and it apparently drives him nuts to see the Israel flag up there.
Oh, and as a further aside the most civilians blown up during the troubles in a single incident was in Dublin - allegedly a UDA/UVF plot. Can't seem to remember who trained that lot.....??? Sure it'll come to me. |
Yeah the Blues Brothers, Chelsea, Glasgow Rangers and Linfield thing with all their King Billy and C18 bollocks is proper cvnty. | | | |
| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 17:05 - Jul 26 with 1807 views | kropotkin41 |
| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 15:24 - Jul 26 by bullythebear |
Ah an article from Press TV, great source that...from that bastion of democracy, free speech and a free press... Iran!! |
Find me a bastion of democracy and I'll post a source from it. Look into the woman's politics before you dismiss the story. | |
| ‘morbid curiosity about where this is all going’ |
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| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 17:16 - Jul 26 with 1798 views | kropotkin41 |
| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 11:53 - Jul 26 by MrSheen |
You're torturing some of the definitions here, for instance the idea that "ethnic cleansing" is the same as "genocide". Germans were ethnically cleansed from Eastern Europe after the second world war, but was it genocide? Was the flight of Serbs from Croatia genocide, even though it involved violence and threats? It gets you to the point where you can define Israel as genocidal because of undoubted incidents in the past of ethnic cleansing, while at the same time it has 1.7m non-Jewish citizens (not occupied persons), of whom 85% are Muslims. If it is genocide to wipe the idea of "Palestine" from the face of the earth, I'm not sure what that means. Palestine the independent state never existed, it was always under the dominance of one foreign ruler or other.
I'm also puzzled by some of your historical references. Were the Nazis ever happy to see Jews leave, beyond the happiness of corrupt officials to take bribes to allow a few to escape, and their desire to evict Jews from particular areas they wanted to be Judenrein? Just because the IDF have studied the Warsaw Ghetto rising (some of the founders would have been involved in it) it's a massive leap to say they want same outcome as the Germans there, the death of every single occupant, rather than combatants. As someone has said, Hamas are really trying their hardest to kill ANY Israeli they can, without great success, which isn't the case of their hugely more powerful adversary. [Post edited 26 Jul 2014 11:54]
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1. The academic endeavour to differentiate ethnic cleansing from genocide is sophistry IMO
2. Arabs who live in Israel suffer a huge amount of discrimination entirely in keeping with the nature of Israeli Apartheid and the destruction, culturally and ethnically of Palestine.
3. The historical existence of an independent Palestine is immaterial. Palestine existed, culturally and linguistically, and was created a British mandate to become independent. If the British Empire had done the right thing after the collapse of Ottoman power then Palestine would have become an independent state.
4. The official policy of the Third Reich until 1941 was to encourage Jewish emigration.
5. If the IDF doesn't want to kill Palestinians indiscriminately it should stop firing on schools and hospitals and stop using flechette shells and white phosphorous. Actually in terms of combatants killed in Gaza it's rather difficult to tell who is winning; in terms of who has butchered the most women and children Israel is way out in front.
You talk a good game in defence of Israel, Mr Sheen, good name for someone interested in wiping away nasty stains. Unfortunately your position can't hide the war crimes of Israel, the 69 UN resolutions Israel has contravened or the genocidal nature of the Israeli state. The attempt to justify Israel by reference to the extremism of Hamas is laughable, as you know very well that Israel could have long ago had peace through negotiation with the PLO. If you want peace you do not occupy; if you want peace you don't go on stealing land; if you want peace you don't treat a whole people like animals.............. but Israel doesn't want peace, it wants the natural gas that's off the coast in Gaza's territorial waters and it wants a Greater Israel from the sea to the Jordan. | |
| ‘morbid curiosity about where this is all going’ |
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| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 17:32 - Jul 26 with 1786 views | Aunt_Nelly |
| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 18:34 - Jul 25 by kropotkin41 |
Oh, and for what it's worth I wouldn't want another Israeli to play for QPR until there is justice for Palestine which in my opinion would mean the Right of Return and the dismantling of the Israeli apartheid apparatus entirely.......... one country for Jews and Arabs in Palestine/Israel.
No Justice, No Peace. |
That "No justice, No peace" bollocks is all good when you're thousands of miles away sitting safely behind your solar powered macbook pro with a bowl of organic gluten free lentils and a copy of 'How to knit a lifesize model of Khaled Meshaal from hemp and placenta'. But on the ground the very people you claim to be concerned about will be killed because they are being deliberately put in the firing line by Hamas. Used as human shields, tunnels and arms depots under their houses, pregnant women used for suicide bombing. | | | |
| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 18:27 - Jul 26 with 1750 views | DylanP |
| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 18:58 - Jul 25 by kropotkin41 |
I'm not laughing. Syria has been plunged into a war by proxy largely set off by the US policy of trying to dominate energy supplies in the Middle East and beyond. Israel is a State in contravention of more than 60 UN resolutions currently involved in a murderous campaign against what is in effect a concentration camp. You quite simply have no idea and appear unwilling to educate yourself. |
What an ignorant thing to say. Do you try and make your posts as ignorant as possible? or does it just come naturally?
The conflict in Syria has nothing to do with America. The Syrian people tried to rise up and throw off the shackles of a repressive tyrant. In the early days things looked quite hopeful; the Syrian government, fearing reprisals from the West,were fairly restrained. However, when it became clear that they would be protected from UN action by Russia and China, the Syrian government let lose. So far they have slaughtered 150,000 Syrian people. Apparently, that is fine. Apparently, you would rather spout out some stupid slogans about America.
And how is the Gaza Strip a concentration camp? Clearly you don't know what a concentration camp is. Israel withdrew from the Gaza Strip 9 years ago and left the people of Gaza to govern themselves. Israel has almost never blockaded Gaza. The blockade is primarily imposed by Egypt. If you knew anything about the region, instead of just spouting dumb slogans, you would know that the largest and most important land border to Gaza is Rafa, which Egypt has kept closed kept closed since Hamas took over Gaza (except for a few weeks in 2011). That is how virtually everyone goes from the north to Egypt. That is how I travelled when I lived in Egypt. There are 4 other border crossings to Gaza -- one goes to Egypt, 2 freight crossings into Israel, that have never been closed, and the Eretz crossing into Israel that was open even throughout he first weeks of the war, until Hamas closed it. |  |
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| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 20:11 - Jul 26 with 1705 views | exiled_dictator |
get the impression that kropotkin41 is a bbc correspondent sitting in his bumker in lewisham.
he clearly knows fcuk all about what is really happening in the region and within the conflict.
but then again, that's what the bbc stand for, and that's how they report.
right kropotkin41? |  |
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| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 20:21 - Jul 26 with 1697 views | timcocking |
| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 20:11 - Jul 26 by exiled_dictator |
get the impression that kropotkin41 is a bbc correspondent sitting in his bumker in lewisham.
he clearly knows fcuk all about what is really happening in the region and within the conflict.
but then again, that's what the bbc stand for, and that's how they report.
right kropotkin41? |
My guess Is he's a student  |  | | |
| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 20:43 - Jul 26 with 1689 views | THEBUSH |
| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 20:21 - Jul 26 by timcocking |
My guess Is he's a student |
No matter how many times you justify the killing of innocent's, don't make it right.
Without the backing of the USA, Israel would have to abide by International Law and stop the killing.
Israel have shown their true colours by turning down the latest ceasefire proposals. |  | | |
| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 22:51 - Jul 26 with 1625 views | timcocking |
| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 20:43 - Jul 26 by THEBUSH |
No matter how many times you justify the killing of innocent's, don't make it right.
Without the backing of the USA, Israel would have to abide by International Law and stop the killing.
Israel have shown their true colours by turning down the latest ceasefire proposals. |
It doesn't matter how many times nobody is justifying it, you'll still try to say they are justifying it lol. It's Hamas who's policy is kill the innocents, as you know already. | | | |
| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 06:18 - Jul 27 with 1592 views | exiled_dictator |
nobody is saying that killing women & children is right, but you just have to look a little deeper at what is really happening in the region beyond israel, gaza & west bank.
and despinet what crapnuts69 is saying or trying to justify, he IS anti-semetic & anti-zionist. you can spread it with as much marmalade as you want, but if you read what he says, he would be delighted to gas all the jews (again), and drive them into the sea and handover all the land to terrorists. he is undoubtedly an unofficial mouthpiece for terrorism.
as a muslim, i believe in the state of israel as the homeland for the jews; it says so in the koran. cannot get away from it, as the jews were there thousands of years before Muhammed was. the land has always been fought over, and often administered by groups who were not jewish. but jews were always there. look it up.
i say again, i am not happy when any human dies, but you just cannot look at the situation with closed eyes.
it will be interesting to see responses, but i wonder how many people have the balls to actually say that the jews are entitled to a homeland, and i am more than happy to see the state of israel in existence, and the people defending themselves against terrorist aggression.
genocide? what a load of bollokkks. genocide is what is happening in syria, which you so conveniently refuse to mention or condemn. as someone already said, when does school start again? | |
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| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 08:17 - Jul 27 with 1565 views | batmanhoop |
| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 11:41 - Jul 26 by simmo |
Give it a rest, Joey. FFS. |
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| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 10:05 - Jul 27 with 1521 views | kropotkin41 |
| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 17:32 - Jul 26 by Aunt_Nelly |
That "No justice, No peace" bollocks is all good when you're thousands of miles away sitting safely behind your solar powered macbook pro with a bowl of organic gluten free lentils and a copy of 'How to knit a lifesize model of Khaled Meshaal from hemp and placenta'. But on the ground the very people you claim to be concerned about will be killed because they are being deliberately put in the firing line by Hamas. Used as human shields, tunnels and arms depots under their houses, pregnant women used for suicide bombing. |
You can f*ck right off. And when I'm in Gaza - which I intend to be in the near future - I'll send you a postcard.
The line "No justice, no peace" comes from the Palestinians, many of them women, standing in the ruins of their own homes shouting defiance at the IDF and the Zionist State. | |
| ‘morbid curiosity about where this is all going’ |
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| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 10:38 - Jul 27 with 1502 views | Aunt_Nelly |
| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 10:05 - Jul 27 by kropotkin41 |
You can f*ck right off. And when I'm in Gaza - which I intend to be in the near future - I'll send you a postcard.
The line "No justice, no peace" comes from the Palestinians, many of them women, standing in the ruins of their own homes shouting defiance at the IDF and the Zionist State. |
Go to Gaza? Fckin hilarious.
Best intentions perhaps but knowing your sort I seriously doubt it.
You'll most likely fashion a thobe from your Harrods egyptian cotton sheets to don with your organic cotton shemagh. Download The Lonely Planet (Vegan edition) to your Kindle HD, fill the Prius with homebrew Bio-fuel and then only make it as far as the local Farmers Market when you decide that picking up some ingredients to make a nice musakhan will probably be a better show of support for Palastine.
Postcard my arse. | | | |
| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 10:38 - Jul 27 with 1500 views | THEBUSH |
| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 22:51 - Jul 26 by timcocking |
It doesn't matter how many times nobody is justifying it, you'll still try to say they are justifying it lol. It's Hamas who's policy is kill the innocents, as you know already. |
I don't like Hamas, I don't like the Israel Coalition Government, they are both killers of the innocents.
I just see the bigger atrocities carried out by Israel, 75% of Palestinians deaths are innocent civilians, for me that's unacceptable.
You have your agenda, I have mine, we will never agree, so that's it, back to good old QPR, my team. | | | |
| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 10:44 - Jul 27 with 1491 views | CanadaRanger |
http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/view/gaza-public-rejects-hama
"Today's headlines are that Hamas has just rejected Egypt's offer of a ceasefire with Israel and instead continues to fire rockets indiscriminately at Israeli towns and cities. Less known is a crucial fact: the people of Gaza are solidly against these Hamas policies. Indeed, by a very large majority, they oppose Hamas rule altogether. These findings are based on a June 15-17 survey by a highly respected Palestinian pollster, who conducted face-to-face interviews throughout Gaza using standard random geographical probability sampling. The poll included 450 Gazans, yielding a margin of error of approximately 4 percent...." [Post edited 27 Jul 2014 10:44]
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| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 10:57 - Jul 27 with 1474 views | Aunt_Nelly |
| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 10:44 - Jul 27 by CanadaRanger |
http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/view/gaza-public-rejects-hama
"Today's headlines are that Hamas has just rejected Egypt's offer of a ceasefire with Israel and instead continues to fire rockets indiscriminately at Israeli towns and cities. Less known is a crucial fact: the people of Gaza are solidly against these Hamas policies. Indeed, by a very large majority, they oppose Hamas rule altogether. These findings are based on a June 15-17 survey by a highly respected Palestinian pollster, who conducted face-to-face interviews throughout Gaza using standard random geographical probability sampling. The poll included 450 Gazans, yielding a margin of error of approximately 4 percent...." [Post edited 27 Jul 2014 10:44]
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I can believe that. Unlike our resident armchair revolutionary I've been there a few times and from first hand experience I can tell you that every Palastinian I met wanted Hamas to take their war elsewhere so the violence could end and they could get on with their lives. | | | |
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