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I would be interested to know if at any time, some of the players have said to McNulty they need to change the system and try something a little different. I would have taken the current points we have at the start of the season, but it just seems such a shame that we cant go to a plan B. I think when all fully fit, we have a decent side but this persistence to keep playing this style of play is crazy.
Jim seems an intelligent bloke, he must be able to see, that sometimes a different approach is needed.
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Style of play - Players interaction on 18:57 - Feb 15 with 2353 views
Style of play - Players interaction on 18:33 - Feb 15 by D_Alien
I expect they're happy to have found employment elsewhere
What criteria were used to employ them at Dale in the first place? Did they have targets to achieve? There were many posts on here a year or so ago about this issue, and furthermore... if they were earning more for the club than it took to employ them, why were they let go?
I love you DA.
At 18.10 it was the club were are fault for "employing several commercial staff (for instance) who achieved very little and with very little oversight"
At 18.33 you "expect they're happy to have found employment elsewhere."
Then asking "why were they let go?"
How can someone that isn't being given oversight be let go?
Could it be they handed in their notice like loads of us do and take another job with a different employer?
We simply don't know why they moved on but we do know they've moved to clubs in the EFL or at the same level. Those clubs must have seen something they liked to engage them.
Perhaps the economics of Rochdale and the economics of Oldham vastly differ on hospitality?
There will be lots of factors; our commercial revenue as judd noted in another post is about £0.3m a season and has been in that ball park for many years with many different individuals leading it.
[Post edited 15 Feb 18:57]
George Bernard Shaw had it right:
"He who can does; he who cannot, teaches."
https://www.visittheusa.co.uk/
Style of play - Players interaction on 18:57 - Feb 15 by RAFCBLUE
I love you DA.
At 18.10 it was the club were are fault for "employing several commercial staff (for instance) who achieved very little and with very little oversight"
At 18.33 you "expect they're happy to have found employment elsewhere."
Then asking "why were they let go?"
How can someone that isn't being given oversight be let go?
Could it be they handed in their notice like loads of us do and take another job with a different employer?
We simply don't know why they moved on but we do know they've moved to clubs in the EFL or at the same level. Those clubs must have seen something they liked to engage them.
Perhaps the economics of Rochdale and the economics of Oldham vastly differ on hospitality?
There will be lots of factors; our commercial revenue as judd noted in another post is about £0.3m a season and has been in that ball park for many years with many different individuals leading it.
[Post edited 15 Feb 18:57]
I'm afraid you failed to see the irony in my "let go" comment
The irony of posting repeatedly and at length about what the club have done they shouldn't have, or failed to do which they didn't is unmissable - one would've thought
Style of play - Players interaction on 19:06 - Feb 15 by D_Alien
I'm afraid you failed to see the irony in my "let go" comment
The irony of posting repeatedly and at length about what the club have done they shouldn't have, or failed to do which they didn't is unmissable - one would've thought
My bad DA.
George Bernard Shaw had it right:
"He who can does; he who cannot, teaches."
https://www.visittheusa.co.uk/
Style of play - Players interaction on 18:04 - Feb 15 by RAFCBLUE
Some good points in there but the crux we haven't addressed is that we are living outside of our relative means.
Published losses: 2018: Loss of £0.3m 2019: Loss of £1.2m 2020: Profit of £1.3m 2021: Loss of £1.2m 2022: Loss of £0.5m
I'll assume that 2023 will be a loss and 2024 will be a loss.
Assuming I am right on 2023 and 2024 that will be £2.9m loss plus 2023 and 2024 losses.
I'd go for it being cumulatively at least £4.0m if 2023 and 2024 combined is another £1.1m loss.
We used to laugh at bury for spending beyond their means but we are doing so here.
We've spent cumulatively about £4.0m more than we've earned over 7 years; about 10 grand a week.
The first step has to be to have a budget that doesn't make a loss; be that either reducing the wage bill and recruiting a lower wage cost set of players or increasing ticket prices or getting more people to come.
Otherwise you are just asking individual directors (historic and present) to bail out a loss making business and that is not a sustainable practice.
Some of the other club mentioned have owners who are offsetting football losses for tax against their other businesses.
There are not many who run at a surplus of revenue over costs.
I don't know what to believe anymore. Our cummulative losses aren't as bad as your numbers imply as we had reserves in 2020/21 to offset losses.
At the AGM we were told that the club was now breaking even at an operating level. But what does that mean? If you have heavy fixxed costs that are excluded it means we are still losing money. And as we know, many a profitable business has gone bust because of cashflow. But I believe that in cutting the budget and letting staff leave, the Board has reduced the run rate losses.
What has changed since the AGM? We have released another 50,000 shares for sale in January and not many have been sold as yet. There isn't an appetite it would seem for people to buy an odd thousand shares as individuals. Our hoped for player sale in January didn't happen either. And we are told that Simon is still bank rolling the club each month. So maybe the plan to break even is dependent on those two elements working. But I am not expecting losses of £0.5m each year. But any loss is unsustainable.
I won't go over old ground as it is tedious now. But we need to drive revenue, work our rocks off to get new fans, one by one, and try and take more revenue from our existing fan base in the meantime. If Jim wants more cash to build a team, he will need to earn it and start by targeting a cup run or two next season. Otherwise he reaps what he sows. In the meantime some attractive football and a fight to get back into the play-offs might just bring a few hundred back in.
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Style of play - Players interaction on 22:50 - Feb 15 with 2082 views
Style of play - Players interaction on 22:00 - Feb 15 by Dalenet
I don't know what to believe anymore. Our cummulative losses aren't as bad as your numbers imply as we had reserves in 2020/21 to offset losses.
At the AGM we were told that the club was now breaking even at an operating level. But what does that mean? If you have heavy fixxed costs that are excluded it means we are still losing money. And as we know, many a profitable business has gone bust because of cashflow. But I believe that in cutting the budget and letting staff leave, the Board has reduced the run rate losses.
What has changed since the AGM? We have released another 50,000 shares for sale in January and not many have been sold as yet. There isn't an appetite it would seem for people to buy an odd thousand shares as individuals. Our hoped for player sale in January didn't happen either. And we are told that Simon is still bank rolling the club each month. So maybe the plan to break even is dependent on those two elements working. But I am not expecting losses of £0.5m each year. But any loss is unsustainable.
I won't go over old ground as it is tedious now. But we need to drive revenue, work our rocks off to get new fans, one by one, and try and take more revenue from our existing fan base in the meantime. If Jim wants more cash to build a team, he will need to earn it and start by targeting a cup run or two next season. Otherwise he reaps what he sows. In the meantime some attractive football and a fight to get back into the play-offs might just bring a few hundred back in.
Those figures from 2018 to 2022 are from published audited accounts filed with Companies House.
The reason the cumulative losses don't tie in is because the club issued share capital and raised new capital in 2021 and 2022. It continues to do so.
At 30th June 2022, the club's net assets (the residual assets over liabilities) were just £0.4m. The Covid impact cannot be underestimated into how that damaged the club and other clubs, but the numbers from 2018 onwards don't lie.
I agree with the last few points of your final paragraphs. The club stands or falls on its home performances, its home attendances and its home results.
The two cup competitions were particularly disappointing as there's the chance for that to be lucrative. Those have to be a priority as we remain a non-league club and there is a large chance of a televised game given our non-league status.
Next season the climb gets steeper but as Chaff noted there are a lot of out of contract players so there is the opportunity to reshape. If the club can be profitable it can reinvest those profits over the coming decade ala Exeter and build back better.
There is though a point where you can't cut any further. Halifax have 36 staff (excluding players) and we are above that but not by many.
You're completely right with the need for the fans and the town needs to get back behind its team collectively and in some numbers if we are ever to get back to the EFL and to do so regularly not just for the attractive one-off.
George Bernard Shaw had it right:
"He who can does; he who cannot, teaches."
https://www.visittheusa.co.uk/
“ At April 2022, the club has a stable financial platform and cash reserves to be well positioned for next season. We have returned during 2021/22 to being a properly and prudently run football club”
“ We started shaping our squad for next season in January 2022 with the purchases of Tavhon Campbell, James Ball and Luke Charman and will continue to support Robbie Stockdale as far as possible as he builds his squad for next season this summer. The Board is planning for a significantly increased playing budget for next season.”
Wouldn’t a football club capitalise on a “stable financial position” and “reshape” then if any future-proof planning was going to identify possible risks to that stability?
Style of play - Players interaction on 22:50 - Feb 15 by RAFCBLUE
Those figures from 2018 to 2022 are from published audited accounts filed with Companies House.
The reason the cumulative losses don't tie in is because the club issued share capital and raised new capital in 2021 and 2022. It continues to do so.
At 30th June 2022, the club's net assets (the residual assets over liabilities) were just £0.4m. The Covid impact cannot be underestimated into how that damaged the club and other clubs, but the numbers from 2018 onwards don't lie.
I agree with the last few points of your final paragraphs. The club stands or falls on its home performances, its home attendances and its home results.
The two cup competitions were particularly disappointing as there's the chance for that to be lucrative. Those have to be a priority as we remain a non-league club and there is a large chance of a televised game given our non-league status.
Next season the climb gets steeper but as Chaff noted there are a lot of out of contract players so there is the opportunity to reshape. If the club can be profitable it can reinvest those profits over the coming decade ala Exeter and build back better.
There is though a point where you can't cut any further. Halifax have 36 staff (excluding players) and we are above that but not by many.
You're completely right with the need for the fans and the town needs to get back behind its team collectively and in some numbers if we are ever to get back to the EFL and to do so regularly not just for the attractive one-off.
On the cup competitions, I agree. I was looking forward to a debut in the FA Trophy and seeing where that took us. As it transpired, it was an embarrassingly heavy home defeat and no more.
This prompted the head coach to say, publicly, that the budget was such at the start of the season that he knew he wouldn’t be able to compete on three fronts, only one, that being the league.
If he’s being up front, and I’ve no reason to doubt he is, how do we overcome this catch 22 situation? We need the cups in order to be profitable, but that requires investment in the squad.
Interesting to see if that is rectified next season with so many players out of contract.
I dont get this thing about he can only focus on one front given his limited playing staff. Our cup games were both on weekends free of league games. Surely expecting to play once a week is not too much to ask of a playing staff.
Just another excuse for very poor results I think
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Style of play - Players interaction on 09:26 - Feb 16 with 1787 views
I think that was just an excuse as well. Pretty poor one too when you consider the commitments in the FA Trophy of part time teams in leagues below Dale. I know the squad was low on numbers but psychologically aren’t players going to feel tired when you keep telling them and us that they’re knackered?
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Style of play - Players interaction on 10:36 - Feb 16 with 1734 views
Style of play - Players interaction on 23:14 - Feb 15 by fitzochris
On the cup competitions, I agree. I was looking forward to a debut in the FA Trophy and seeing where that took us. As it transpired, it was an embarrassingly heavy home defeat and no more.
This prompted the head coach to say, publicly, that the budget was such at the start of the season that he knew he wouldn’t be able to compete on three fronts, only one, that being the league.
If he’s being up front, and I’ve no reason to doubt he is, how do we overcome this catch 22 situation? We need the cups in order to be profitable, but that requires investment in the squad.
Interesting to see if that is rectified next season with so many players out of contract.
I saw Jim's comments after that FA Trophy game as a bit of an excuse TBH.
When that game was played we hadn't played for 10 days and the original game was postponed on the Saturday so we had had three days of extra rest.
McNulty played his first choice eleven with the exceptions of Kelly (who played for Moulden) and Taylor (who played for Ebanks-Landsdell).
The rest of that 11 was broadly our best 11 available and at 3-0 down (55 minutes) McNulty started to bring on three youth prospects to save Clayton, Sinclair and Uchegbulam for the Saturday game.
It was 1-3 after the last sub and we subsequently got picked off twice in added time.
The damage was done at 0-3 down in a poor first 55 minutes and he put Moulden on the bench, so you have to assume that he could have played if needed but was conciousuly rested or/and Kelly given a game.
I don't think we would have lost 1-5 if Moulden had played a full 90 minutes.
At Hereford in the FA Cup in October we were turned over and should have done much better. Even if our strategy is to play for a draw and bring them back to Spotland we must maximise those opportunities. We had loads of possession, did nothing with it. The tale of this season.
I don't agree that speculative investment in the squad is the way to go as if you are knocked out early (as we have been) then how does that gap get funded?
The money in neither of these competitions is great until the later stages.
We have to do three things going forward in my mind: (1) Run at breakeven - even if that means we have to cut the playing budget to achieve that in 2025 (2) Prioritise the cup games vs the league games since in the National League you can and will lose some games. The feelgood factor alone and the extra games will help the club's morale and finances. (3) If we do get a cup windfall then that is seen as unusual and banked rather than needed to immediately balance the books in that season.
It will take 3-5 years of that approach and a modicum of luck. We are due some good luck.
Chesterfield this year I believe have only used 24 players so it can't just be squad investment when they will be comfortably Champions, reached the 4th round of the FA Trophy and 3rd Round of the FA Cup.
That's as good as I think it will get at this level and cup games bring hope and commercial interest which we have not really had a lot of.
George Bernard Shaw had it right:
"He who can does; he who cannot, teaches."
https://www.visittheusa.co.uk/
Style of play - Players interaction on 10:36 - Feb 16 by RAFCBLUE
I saw Jim's comments after that FA Trophy game as a bit of an excuse TBH.
When that game was played we hadn't played for 10 days and the original game was postponed on the Saturday so we had had three days of extra rest.
McNulty played his first choice eleven with the exceptions of Kelly (who played for Moulden) and Taylor (who played for Ebanks-Landsdell).
The rest of that 11 was broadly our best 11 available and at 3-0 down (55 minutes) McNulty started to bring on three youth prospects to save Clayton, Sinclair and Uchegbulam for the Saturday game.
It was 1-3 after the last sub and we subsequently got picked off twice in added time.
The damage was done at 0-3 down in a poor first 55 minutes and he put Moulden on the bench, so you have to assume that he could have played if needed but was conciousuly rested or/and Kelly given a game.
I don't think we would have lost 1-5 if Moulden had played a full 90 minutes.
At Hereford in the FA Cup in October we were turned over and should have done much better. Even if our strategy is to play for a draw and bring them back to Spotland we must maximise those opportunities. We had loads of possession, did nothing with it. The tale of this season.
I don't agree that speculative investment in the squad is the way to go as if you are knocked out early (as we have been) then how does that gap get funded?
The money in neither of these competitions is great until the later stages.
We have to do three things going forward in my mind: (1) Run at breakeven - even if that means we have to cut the playing budget to achieve that in 2025 (2) Prioritise the cup games vs the league games since in the National League you can and will lose some games. The feelgood factor alone and the extra games will help the club's morale and finances. (3) If we do get a cup windfall then that is seen as unusual and banked rather than needed to immediately balance the books in that season.
It will take 3-5 years of that approach and a modicum of luck. We are due some good luck.
Chesterfield this year I believe have only used 24 players so it can't just be squad investment when they will be comfortably Champions, reached the 4th round of the FA Trophy and 3rd Round of the FA Cup.
That's as good as I think it will get at this level and cup games bring hope and commercial interest which we have not really had a lot of.
McNulty also said after that game that he would have rested more of his regular XI had he the squad depth to do so, but felt he had to "expose players" he wouldn't have otherwise. Rest or no rest, some players played that night who were carrying knocks and McNulty was clearly anxious as he wanted to prioritise the league game on the Saturday due to this perceived lack of squad depth.
I'm not completely condoning the defeat, as it was hard to justify whatever the mitigation, but McNulty's points do need consideration.
"I don't agree that speculative investment in the squad is the way to go as if you are knocked out early (as we have been) then how does that gap get funded?"
If only this had been considered last season, or the one before, no? Two well-backed managers who still failed - and with naught of a dissenting voice from certain people, I might add.
I'll say again, I'm prepared to cut McNulty more slack than previous managers precisely for this reason - and reiterate, he isn't the reason we are in the National League. He is carrying the consequence, budget-wise, of the failure of others.
The fact we are in the top half of the league, still with an outside chance of a top-seven finish, is overachievement.
Chesterfield's squad of 24 includes players such as Will Grigg also, so we are not on a financial pegging with them or a lot of other full-time teams at this level.
Gates aren't going to be improved when there's mixed messages coming out of the club about being 100% committed to winning every single game, irrespective of the competition
Players can't be switched off and back on, fans are being short-changed after turning up (especially to an away trip like Hereford - didn't include me) and the added thought that our "style of play" is rather more about conserving energy than entertaining seems like a penny dropping which can't be picked up again
Style of play - Players interaction on 10:36 - Feb 16 by RAFCBLUE
I saw Jim's comments after that FA Trophy game as a bit of an excuse TBH.
When that game was played we hadn't played for 10 days and the original game was postponed on the Saturday so we had had three days of extra rest.
McNulty played his first choice eleven with the exceptions of Kelly (who played for Moulden) and Taylor (who played for Ebanks-Landsdell).
The rest of that 11 was broadly our best 11 available and at 3-0 down (55 minutes) McNulty started to bring on three youth prospects to save Clayton, Sinclair and Uchegbulam for the Saturday game.
It was 1-3 after the last sub and we subsequently got picked off twice in added time.
The damage was done at 0-3 down in a poor first 55 minutes and he put Moulden on the bench, so you have to assume that he could have played if needed but was conciousuly rested or/and Kelly given a game.
I don't think we would have lost 1-5 if Moulden had played a full 90 minutes.
At Hereford in the FA Cup in October we were turned over and should have done much better. Even if our strategy is to play for a draw and bring them back to Spotland we must maximise those opportunities. We had loads of possession, did nothing with it. The tale of this season.
I don't agree that speculative investment in the squad is the way to go as if you are knocked out early (as we have been) then how does that gap get funded?
The money in neither of these competitions is great until the later stages.
We have to do three things going forward in my mind: (1) Run at breakeven - even if that means we have to cut the playing budget to achieve that in 2025 (2) Prioritise the cup games vs the league games since in the National League you can and will lose some games. The feelgood factor alone and the extra games will help the club's morale and finances. (3) If we do get a cup windfall then that is seen as unusual and banked rather than needed to immediately balance the books in that season.
It will take 3-5 years of that approach and a modicum of luck. We are due some good luck.
Chesterfield this year I believe have only used 24 players so it can't just be squad investment when they will be comfortably Champions, reached the 4th round of the FA Trophy and 3rd Round of the FA Cup.
That's as good as I think it will get at this level and cup games bring hope and commercial interest which we have not really had a lot of.
On those things you believe we have to do going forward, two questions:
Considering we had a “stable financial platform” at the end of the 21/22 season and then decided to plan “for a significantly increased playing budget” for the following campaign, was it a mistake for the club not to do the following: “Run at breakeven - even if that means we have to cut the playing budget”?
Also, doesn’t that really come under ‘cutting our cloth accordingly’ something we have rightly been proud of us a club in the past?
Style of play - Players interaction on 18:07 - Feb 16 by 442Dale
On those things you believe we have to do going forward, two questions:
Considering we had a “stable financial platform” at the end of the 21/22 season and then decided to plan “for a significantly increased playing budget” for the following campaign, was it a mistake for the club not to do the following: “Run at breakeven - even if that means we have to cut the playing budget”?
Also, doesn’t that really come under ‘cutting our cloth accordingly’ something we have rightly been proud of us a club in the past?
I wonder if the Boxing Day newbies have been offered a deal for the Borhamwood game on the 20th which is in half term and a later night is less of a problem with no school on Wednesday? Or even a double header family ticket for Saturday and Tuesday ... 2 adults and 2 kids £25...?
Financial stability is predicated on two factors.. numbers through through turnstiles and the Club's ability to engage local businesses and general population in revenue - producing activities.
We cant exist on the basis of 2000 people buying tickets, shirts and half-time draw tickets, shares, fighting fund, squad builder and all the rest of it. As in most businesses if you aren't growing you are going backwards and the false premise of holding the fort with a cup run or a player sale has simply not solved any of the inherent problems it has just papered over the cracks.
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Style of play - Players interaction on 19:36 - Feb 16 with 1207 views
Style of play - Players interaction on 19:11 - Feb 16 by 49thseason
I wonder if the Boxing Day newbies have been offered a deal for the Borhamwood game on the 20th which is in half term and a later night is less of a problem with no school on Wednesday? Or even a double header family ticket for Saturday and Tuesday ... 2 adults and 2 kids £25...?
Financial stability is predicated on two factors.. numbers through through turnstiles and the Club's ability to engage local businesses and general population in revenue - producing activities.
We cant exist on the basis of 2000 people buying tickets, shirts and half-time draw tickets, shares, fighting fund, squad builder and all the rest of it. As in most businesses if you aren't growing you are going backwards and the false premise of holding the fort with a cup run or a player sale has simply not solved any of the inherent problems it has just papered over the cracks.
Very true. So if we focus/focused on growing other revenue streams effectively alongside this route of ‘cutting our cloth’, wouldn’t that be what most of the fanbase have both been proud of and promoted for years?
If it’s an option now, it was an option when we were in a better position. Let’s establish that and look at what can be done.
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