| The Pound 13:57 - Sep 24 with 100051 views | Stanmiguel |
Well, the money markets didn't like the mini budget.
I met Liz Truss in a hotel in Monmouth a few years ago.
She said her solution to pensioner poverty would be to feed them on Pedigree Chum.
Not only would this save a lot of money, it would give them shiny coats and a nice cold nose. |  | | |  |
| The Pound on 11:47 - Sep 29 with 2122 views | connell10 |
| The Pound on 11:07 - Sep 29 by stevec |
Agree, they’ve all been complicit, Tories have been hopeless and should have been slowly increasing interest rates over the years when things were relatively calm, purely to control house prices from the obscene sums they’ve been reaching and also stimulate wage increases. They did none of that.
But ultimately and historically, it was Brown and Blair that made this catastrophic call. Given how much the left side of the argument generally thrives on the historical rather than the here and now, I’d thought you’d accept the significance. |
So all the shite we are in was caused by these two??? Mmmmm OK then , I blame Thatcher for all this for privatising the Energy, rail and water! |  |
| AND WHEN I DREAM , I DREAM ABOUT YOU AND WHEN I SCREAM I SCREAM ABOUT YOU!!!!! | | Poll: | best number 10 ever? |
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| The Pound on 11:48 - Sep 29 with 2118 views | plasmahoop |
| The Pound on 10:17 - Sep 29 by BazzaInTheLoft |
No fan of Blair or Brown but this is revisionism at it's finest.
I know we are all tribal beings by nature, but is there absolutely no regard for the fact that Brown was prime minister over a decade ago and that the economy has been in the same hands since then?
It was so long ago Kevin Gallen was still a QPR player when he was in charge. [Post edited 29 Sep 2022 10:19]
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I wont mention Gordon brown again, but many people still blame thatcher for everything so he is pretty recent in comparison. But yes, itt no way detracts from the complete disaster zone at the moment. Although 'same hands' isn't quite true either. The tories are getting worse with every pm, and have been truly dismal for a few years now. I'll defend Cameron and osborne, even Theresa may a bit, but since they are such a shower, I can't believe it | | | |
| The Pound on 11:51 - Sep 29 with 2063 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| The Pound on 11:48 - Sep 29 by plasmahoop |
I wont mention Gordon brown again, but many people still blame thatcher for everything so he is pretty recent in comparison. But yes, itt no way detracts from the complete disaster zone at the moment. Although 'same hands' isn't quite true either. The tories are getting worse with every pm, and have been truly dismal for a few years now. I'll defend Cameron and osborne, even Theresa may a bit, but since they are such a shower, I can't believe it |
I blame Thatcher for lots of things, but every PM since her has continued her ideology so yes you have a good point. |  | | |
| The Pound on 11:52 - Sep 29 with 2084 views | SydneyRs |
| The Pound on 10:47 - Sep 29 by Sonofpugwash |
I can remember a time (late seventies) when the mortgage rate hit 17%
Long way to go yet. |
This again...
You could also buy a house for 30k. | | | |
| The Pound on 11:59 - Sep 29 with 2061 views | JimmyR |
| The Pound on 10:31 - Sep 29 by Rs_Holy |
I'm am genuinely scared (for the first time in my life) about a UK Prime Minister... I am no financial expert (by any stretch of the imagination) but some of the things the current Government are doing are crazy... tax cuts which become totally negated by rising interest rates... Inflation rising because the Pound has bombed, which pushes up prices in the shops... Ignoring taxing energy companies which are making record profits... I mean a junior school child could grasp these things!
I've heard her interviewed a few times in the last few days... SHE HAS NOT GOT A FUNKING CLUE!!! [Post edited 29 Sep 2022 10:32]
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This. You should be, me too!
The Risk Free rate/BOE base rate is going to increase at a faster rate
The other parts that go into how much debt cost is the spread, this is what the market demands based on your profile and inflation expectations
Increasing the Rf rate will bring inflation down - Following this mini budget that was anything but mini they've let the world know they dont have a clue. Now the spread & inflation expectations are increasing as well, as a directly result of this budget. The effect of Rf increases have been wiped out so now they it will have to rise faster more quickly
What gets missed when we talk about 1trn of debt being refinanced is this just the face values it doesn't include the interest over the next 30ys
Basically the gov are taking debt that would give them a positive accounting balance -2/3% & swapping it for debt at 4/5%. Every 1% of a trillion in 10bn, this is going to be paid every year!!!
Once credibility has been lost, and jesus it's been lost, it's very difficult to get it back. The general consensus on here seems to be that its the government from 12/15 years ago to blame.
ABSOLUTELY. MAD! But i respect anyone's opinion if you don't like brown/blair fair enough but they never caused and economic crisis by basically mouthing off
Oh and options expire on the 3rd thursday of every month - So this is going to carry on indefinitely until something changes [Post edited 29 Sep 2022 12:01]
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| The Pound on 12:02 - Sep 29 with 2023 views | SheffieldHoop |
| The Pound on 19:28 - Sep 28 by Superhoops2808 |
Or perhaps you could give Clive some respect when he asks that it stays on topic instead of continually stirring the pot as you often do  |
It's not me sitting on here giving it "Oh Britain, once again leading the race to the bottom" while the likes of Russia and China are engaged in genocide. A bit of context & perspective never hurt anyone. |  |
| "Someone despises me. That's their problem." Marcus Aurelius |
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| The Pound on 12:11 - Sep 29 with 2015 views | JimmyR |
| The Pound on 00:48 - Sep 29 by plasmahoop |
It is a statistical minefield, but on Wikipedia if you look up the budget for each year in 2009 after the financial crisis the deficit for the year was 175 billion. In the years preceding, it was 34 and 43 billion. Which to be fair wasn't anywhere near as big as I thought it was. But I think it was still bad, given there was a surplus at the end of the 90s. If they genuinely believed in Keynesian economics, they would have continued down this path to save for the better times.
But ultimately its quite small compared to recent borrowings, so although it has contributed, I think I'm letting my hatred of Gordon brown cloud my judgement. |
Fair play! i'm certainly not chief of the brown/blair fan club - But objectively i would say their record is on the economy is prudent. Certainly relative to the lastest 2 muppets - not a particularly glowing endorsement. [Post edited 29 Sep 2022 12:19]
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| The Pound on 12:11 - Sep 29 with 2012 views | robith |
No finer indication of how useless Truss is than her decision to go and get pummelled by local journos instead of just going on Today and getting a back rub off Nick Robinson.
I saw Sky report "Some in government are understood to see the market assault on the pound and government debt as a plot by the left, something which has surprised city traders."
A plot by the left! hahahahaha. We're 2 days away from the PM condemning "woke city traders" aren't we |  | | |
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| The Pound on 12:15 - Sep 29 with 1986 views | JimmyR |
| The Pound on 12:11 - Sep 29 by robith |
No finer indication of how useless Truss is than her decision to go and get pummelled by local journos instead of just going on Today and getting a back rub off Nick Robinson.
I saw Sky report "Some in government are understood to see the market assault on the pound and government debt as a plot by the left, something which has surprised city traders."
A plot by the left! hahahahaha. We're 2 days away from the PM condemning "woke city traders" aren't we |
haha wow... the tail is wagging the dog. | | | |
| The Pound on 12:20 - Sep 29 with 1962 views | CamberleyR |
I've thought for ages that Truss is a real life incarnation of the character Nicola Murray, the hapless PM from 'The Thick Of It'.
I'm sure that Armando Iannucci never actually thought that she would come to fruition ten years later. |  |
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| The Pound on 12:32 - Sep 29 with 1918 views | JimmyR |
| The Pound on 12:20 - Sep 29 by CamberleyR |
I've thought for ages that Truss is a real life incarnation of the character Nicola Murray, the hapless PM from 'The Thick Of It'.
I'm sure that Armando Iannucci never actually thought that she would come to fruition ten years later. |
Speaking to BBC Radio Nottingham, Liz Truss said it wasn't "fair to have a recession" or for people to not "get high paying jobs in the future".
Don't worry she says it's not fair to have a recession, so that will sort it. In the same breath as lower taxes for the richer will tackle inequality and make everyone richer. Despite the fact that this hasn't happened anywhere in the world ever in the last 50 years.
Unfortunately for her the market doesn't give f*ck what she thinks they follow the money & know a hell of a lot better than she does what is probable, about what is likely to happen in the future [Post edited 29 Sep 2022 12:36]
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| The Pound on 12:44 - Sep 29 with 1852 views | Wilkinswatercarrier |
I had no idea that Surrey pays more in tax per annum than Scotland. It does make me think that is it the amount we tax people or how the money is spent/wasted that means we have to borrow more and more?
Personally I think it is a combination of low tax at the very high end and chronic wastage at all levels of government including local. However, if taxes are cut, like now, or services slashed then the left scream, if the opposite happens then it is the right kicking off. So nothing really changes over 30 odd years and we walk into this mess. I'm going to hibernate for 6 months, wake me when its over. | | | |
| The Pound on 12:46 - Sep 29 with 1846 views | vanrrrr |
There is always a Thick of It clip to summarize the day in politics
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| The Pound on 12:59 - Sep 29 with 1784 views | Juzzie |
| The Pound on 11:52 - Sep 29 by SydneyRs |
This again...
You could also buy a house for 30k. |
And salaries were 2s 6d a week. It's more about the proportion between income vs outgoings that's important. Was it higher then or is it higher now? |  | | |
| The Pound on 13:04 - Sep 29 with 1761 views | Lblock |
Saw this the other day which I found quite thought provoking as a countenance to all those shouting that tax cuts only benefit the rich.
Sure it won’t go down well in some quarters and be derided by many with superior intellect to myself. For me, I think it’s right that people should aspire and perspire to actually BE a high rate tax payer….it should not be something to be sneered at or attacked with, dare I say, some jealousy
Here goes:-
Reminds me of a tax beer anology from years ago…
Suppose that once a week, ten men go out for beer and the bill for all ten comes to £100. If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this...
The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing.
The fifth would pay £1.
The sixth would pay £3.
The seventh would pay £7.
The eighth would pay £12.
The ninth would pay £18.
And the tenth man (the richest) would pay £59.　
So, that's what they decided to do.
The ten men drank in the bar every week and seemed quite happy with the arrangement until, one day, the owner caused them a little problem. "Since you are all such good customers," he said, "I'm going to reduce the cost of your weekly beer by £20." Drinks for the ten men would now cost just £80.
The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes. So the first four men were unaffected. They would still drink for free but what about the other six men? The paying customers? How could they divide the £20 windfall so that everyone would get his fair share?
They decided to follow the principle of the tax system they had been using and they proceeded to work out the amounts that each should now pay.
And so, the fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing (a100% saving).
The sixth man now paid £2 instead of £3 (a 33% saving).
The seventh man now paid £5 instead of £7 (a 28% saving).
The eighth man now paid £9 instead of £12 (a 25% saving).
The ninth man now paid £14 instead of £18 (a 22% saving).
And the tenth man now paid £49 instead of £59 (a 16% saving).　
Each of the last six was better off than before with the first four continuing to drink for free.　
But, once outside the bar, the men began to compare their savings. "I only got £1 out of the £20 saving," declared the sixth man. He pointed to the tenth man, "but he got £10!"　
"Yeah, that's right," exclaimed the fifth man. "I only saved a £1 too. It's unfair that he got ten times more benefit than me!"　
"That's true!" shouted the seventh man. "Why should he get £10 back, when I only got £2? The wealthy get all the breaks!"　
"Wait a minute," yelled the first four men in unison, "we didn't get anything at all. This new tax system exploits the poor!" The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up.　
The next week the tenth man didn't show up for drinks, so the nine sat down and had their beers without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered something important - they didn't have enough money between all of them to pay for even half of the bill!　
The people who already pay the highest taxes will naturally get the most benefit from a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy and they just might not show up anymore. In fact, they might start drinking overseas, where the atmosphere is somewhat friendlier. [Post edited 29 Sep 2022 13:06]
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| Cherish and enjoy life.... this ain't no dress rehearsal |
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| The Pound on 13:09 - Sep 29 with 1733 views | derbyhoop |
I didn't listen to Truss but all the reports indicate she had a script to get through and no realisation of the damage caused. Unfortunately for her, local journos wanted answers that would satisfy their listeners (also known as voters).)
God knows what will be said at Tory conference next week. |  |
| "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the Earth all one's lifetime." (Mark Twain)
Find me on twitter @derbyhoop and now on Bluesky |
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| The Pound on 13:18 - Sep 29 with 1701 views | CamberleyR |
| The Pound on 13:04 - Sep 29 by Lblock |
Saw this the other day which I found quite thought provoking as a countenance to all those shouting that tax cuts only benefit the rich.
Sure it won’t go down well in some quarters and be derided by many with superior intellect to myself. For me, I think it’s right that people should aspire and perspire to actually BE a high rate tax payer….it should not be something to be sneered at or attacked with, dare I say, some jealousy
Here goes:-
Reminds me of a tax beer anology from years ago…
Suppose that once a week, ten men go out for beer and the bill for all ten comes to £100. If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this...
The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing.
The fifth would pay £1.
The sixth would pay £3.
The seventh would pay £7.
The eighth would pay £12.
The ninth would pay £18.
And the tenth man (the richest) would pay £59.　
So, that's what they decided to do.
The ten men drank in the bar every week and seemed quite happy with the arrangement until, one day, the owner caused them a little problem. "Since you are all such good customers," he said, "I'm going to reduce the cost of your weekly beer by £20." Drinks for the ten men would now cost just £80.
The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes. So the first four men were unaffected. They would still drink for free but what about the other six men? The paying customers? How could they divide the £20 windfall so that everyone would get his fair share?
They decided to follow the principle of the tax system they had been using and they proceeded to work out the amounts that each should now pay.
And so, the fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing (a100% saving).
The sixth man now paid £2 instead of £3 (a 33% saving).
The seventh man now paid £5 instead of £7 (a 28% saving).
The eighth man now paid £9 instead of £12 (a 25% saving).
The ninth man now paid £14 instead of £18 (a 22% saving).
And the tenth man now paid £49 instead of £59 (a 16% saving).　
Each of the last six was better off than before with the first four continuing to drink for free.　
But, once outside the bar, the men began to compare their savings. "I only got £1 out of the £20 saving," declared the sixth man. He pointed to the tenth man, "but he got £10!"　
"Yeah, that's right," exclaimed the fifth man. "I only saved a £1 too. It's unfair that he got ten times more benefit than me!"　
"That's true!" shouted the seventh man. "Why should he get £10 back, when I only got £2? The wealthy get all the breaks!"　
"Wait a minute," yelled the first four men in unison, "we didn't get anything at all. This new tax system exploits the poor!" The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up.　
The next week the tenth man didn't show up for drinks, so the nine sat down and had their beers without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered something important - they didn't have enough money between all of them to pay for even half of the bill!　
The people who already pay the highest taxes will naturally get the most benefit from a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy and they just might not show up anymore. In fact, they might start drinking overseas, where the atmosphere is somewhat friendlier. [Post edited 29 Sep 2022 13:06]
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That's all well and good but even before Kwarteng's cut, the UK had one of the lowest top rates of tax in Europe. Belgium, France, Germany, Spain, Italy, Netherlands, Ireland, Sweden, Finland, Austria, Denmark, Greece, Portugal all have a higher top tax rate. | |
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| The Pound on 13:24 - Sep 29 with 1662 views | derbyhoop |
| The Pound on 13:18 - Sep 29 by CamberleyR |
That's all well and good but even before Kwarteng's cut, the UK had one of the lowest top rates of tax in Europe. Belgium, France, Germany, Spain, Italy, Netherlands, Ireland, Sweden, Finland, Austria, Denmark, Greece, Portugal all have a higher top tax rate. |
The elimination of the 45% top rate wasn't that expensive compared to the Covid and energy bailouts.
However, it was politically naive. Are top earners likely to be seduced to the UK because they have to pay 40p on the £ compared to 45p? | |
| "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the Earth all one's lifetime." (Mark Twain)
Find me on twitter @derbyhoop and now on Bluesky |
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| The Pound on 13:25 - Sep 29 with 1653 views | JimmyR |
| The Pound on 13:18 - Sep 29 by CamberleyR |
That's all well and good but even before Kwarteng's cut, the UK had one of the lowest top rates of tax in Europe. Belgium, France, Germany, Spain, Italy, Netherlands, Ireland, Sweden, Finland, Austria, Denmark, Greece, Portugal all have a higher top tax rate. |
it's also not how we do our taxes - Regressive vs progressive. I agree with the sentiment though, ppl should try and earn more, pay HRT, trouble is not everyone starts at the same place
Fair doesn't mean equal. Fair is equitable | | | |
| The Pound on 13:28 - Sep 29 with 1620 views | Lblock |
| The Pound on 13:24 - Sep 29 by derbyhoop |
The elimination of the 45% top rate wasn't that expensive compared to the Covid and energy bailouts.
However, it was politically naive. Are top earners likely to be seduced to the UK because they have to pay 40p on the £ compared to 45p? |
Yes.
Look at the wave of French who headed to London a few years back when the rates there for top earners became massive.
Totally agree on the politics - it doesn't make for good headlines | |
| Cherish and enjoy life.... this ain't no dress rehearsal |
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| The Pound on 13:33 - Sep 29 with 1582 views | 222gers |
| The Pound on 13:24 - Sep 29 by derbyhoop |
The elimination of the 45% top rate wasn't that expensive compared to the Covid and energy bailouts.
However, it was politically naive. Are top earners likely to be seduced to the UK because they have to pay 40p on the £ compared to 45p? |
We should get some advice from that prominent Spanish economist Fidel Metaxes. |  | | |
| The Pound on 13:35 - Sep 29 with 1575 views | Benny_the_Ball |
| The Pound on 10:47 - Sep 29 by Sonofpugwash |
I can remember a time (late seventies) when the mortgage rate hit 17%
Long way to go yet. |
Thank you for adding a bit of perspective to the debate.
The UK has been enjoying ridiculously low interest rates for some time now, but no credit is given to the governing parties for this. As soon as they rise, the knives come out.
Regardless of your political persuasion I doubt there are many who would relish leading in the current climate as you're on a hiding to nothing. The Covid-19 pandemic and Ukraine war are seismic events beyond the UK's control. Their impact is being felt across the world; even gas pipelines in the Baltic are being sabotaged. Frankly Jeremy Corbyn must now be thanking his lucky stars that he didn't win the general election. |  | | |
| The Pound on 13:48 - Sep 29 with 1509 views | Watford_Ranger |
| The Pound on 13:35 - Sep 29 by Benny_the_Ball |
Thank you for adding a bit of perspective to the debate.
The UK has been enjoying ridiculously low interest rates for some time now, but no credit is given to the governing parties for this. As soon as they rise, the knives come out.
Regardless of your political persuasion I doubt there are many who would relish leading in the current climate as you're on a hiding to nothing. The Covid-19 pandemic and Ukraine war are seismic events beyond the UK's control. Their impact is being felt across the world; even gas pipelines in the Baltic are being sabotaged. Frankly Jeremy Corbyn must now be thanking his lucky stars that he didn't win the general election. |
The knives are out because the interest rate rise and more is a direct consequence of fiscal policy. Fiscal policy that wouldn’t have been put in place under a moderate Conservative Party (Sunak called it during the leadership election) let alone any other Party. | | | |
| The Pound on 13:52 - Sep 29 with 1477 views | wood_hoop |
This years rise 3% instead of 9%, was promised by the Tories this years 'triple lock' was safe ,
so should be around 10% for next year.
ho hum......nothing to see here.
https://t.co/Y2Huvs2Ttn |  | | |
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