| The end of the beginning — Column on 16:31 - Aug 29 with 2284 views | Northernr |
| The end of the beginning — Column on 12:54 - Aug 29 by stevec |
Interesting discussion on both sides of the argument and get the concept of unconscious bias, particularly Hunters good explanation of tackling it.
However, I have a question, genuine because I really don’t know the answer.
If next season say, a black player happens to be having a good or bad game, how do white fans comment on this without it being interpreted as unconscious bias? Should we reserve our comments for white players only?
Not being flippant by the way, I, like virtually everybody else, treat black or white players equally, good or bad, to me they are purely Queens Park Rangers footballers, or at least that’s what I thought.
I know people mean well but enacting double speak is a dangerous game, particularly when the accusers are effectively acting as a higher moral authority, passing judgment on what they perceive as wrongful thought.
In the case of Eze he has a particularly unique style. That some have interpreted that as lazy doesn’t make them right but neither does it give anyone the right to interpret this as anything more sinister.
For the record, a lot of fans used to call Rodney Marsh lazy.
I am sure you meant well Clive but you’re wrong on this. |
Well look I obviously don't agree with you, or Benny higher up, but you've both given me a lot to think about and expressed your points eruditely. I'm pleased I did leave it in because this thread has been really interesting, thought provoking and worthwhile IMO. Grown up discussion without descending into usual internet tropes.
Also, Marcus Bean worth reading in The Athletic’s long read on Eze today...
This post has been edited by an administrator |  | |  |
| The end of the beginning — Column on 18:16 - Aug 29 with 2176 views | QPR_Jim |
| The end of the beginning — Column on 12:54 - Aug 29 by stevec |
Interesting discussion on both sides of the argument and get the concept of unconscious bias, particularly Hunters good explanation of tackling it.
However, I have a question, genuine because I really don’t know the answer.
If next season say, a black player happens to be having a good or bad game, how do white fans comment on this without it being interpreted as unconscious bias? Should we reserve our comments for white players only?
Not being flippant by the way, I, like virtually everybody else, treat black or white players equally, good or bad, to me they are purely Queens Park Rangers footballers, or at least that’s what I thought.
I know people mean well but enacting double speak is a dangerous game, particularly when the accusers are effectively acting as a higher moral authority, passing judgment on what they perceive as wrongful thought.
In the case of Eze he has a particularly unique style. That some have interpreted that as lazy doesn’t make them right but neither does it give anyone the right to interpret this as anything more sinister.
For the record, a lot of fans used to call Rodney Marsh lazy.
I am sure you meant well Clive but you’re wrong on this. |
"the accusers are effectively acting as a higher moral authority, passing judgment on what they perceive as wrongful thought."
I agree reading the comments has been an interesting discussion. I don't think the above extract is a fair assessment of the situation though, it's just an external observation from someone not a condemnation of you as a person. Pointing it out when other people do it doesn't mean that you think you're better than them either, we all have our own biases. By it's nature if you're acting subconsciously then you're not going to be able to spot it on your own.
Great report too, going to miss Eze but also looking forward to seeing what he can do in the top division. |  | | |
| The end of the beginning — Column on 18:46 - Aug 29 with 2146 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| The end of the beginning — Column on 18:16 - Aug 29 by QPR_Jim |
"the accusers are effectively acting as a higher moral authority, passing judgment on what they perceive as wrongful thought."
I agree reading the comments has been an interesting discussion. I don't think the above extract is a fair assessment of the situation though, it's just an external observation from someone not a condemnation of you as a person. Pointing it out when other people do it doesn't mean that you think you're better than them either, we all have our own biases. By it's nature if you're acting subconsciously then you're not going to be able to spot it on your own.
Great report too, going to miss Eze but also looking forward to seeing what he can do in the top division. |
I agree Jim. Subconscious bias happens, and it's hard to spot it.
I fancied a girl once. We were both 16. I asked her out and she said no. She was black and admitted that she didn't want to go out with a white boy. I was upset and the reason was that subconsciously it had never occurred to me that a black girl would feel superior to a white boy.
Not a nice thing to learn about myself. |  |
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| The end of the beginning — Column on 18:57 - Aug 29 with 2127 views | NW5Hoop |
| The end of the beginning — Column on 12:54 - Aug 29 by stevec |
Interesting discussion on both sides of the argument and get the concept of unconscious bias, particularly Hunters good explanation of tackling it.
However, I have a question, genuine because I really don’t know the answer.
If next season say, a black player happens to be having a good or bad game, how do white fans comment on this without it being interpreted as unconscious bias? Should we reserve our comments for white players only?
Not being flippant by the way, I, like virtually everybody else, treat black or white players equally, good or bad, to me they are purely Queens Park Rangers footballers, or at least that’s what I thought.
I know people mean well but enacting double speak is a dangerous game, particularly when the accusers are effectively acting as a higher moral authority, passing judgment on what they perceive as wrongful thought.
In the case of Eze he has a particularly unique style. That some have interpreted that as lazy doesn’t make them right but neither does it give anyone the right to interpret this as anything more sinister.
For the record, a lot of fans used to call Rodney Marsh lazy.
I am sure you meant well Clive but you’re wrong on this. |
You say he’s having a shit game. It’s not stereotyping anyone to say they had a shit game. No one’s asking anyone to be mealy mouthed. Just sometimes think about motivations. That’s all. And if your criticism is recurrent and dwells on a single characteristic commonly ascribed to black players, is that criticism fair? No one is saying a black player cannot be lazy. Players of all ethnicities can unite in common laziness. But be prepared to argue the case that they are lazy with more recourse to factual illustration than is common on the internet! |  | | |
| The end of the beginning — Column on 20:56 - Aug 29 with 2052 views | Northolt_Rs |
Wow! A simply fantastic piece of writing and a truly fitting QPR ‘epitaph’ for Ebere. He has been a constant source of joy in some pretty dismal times. I just really hope Hodgson doesn’t cock it up for him....I want to see him fulfil all of his enormous potential. Fully expect to see him in an England shirt sometime soon. [Post edited 29 Aug 2020 20:58]
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| Scooters, Tunes, Trainers and QPR. |
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| The end of the beginning — Column on 21:08 - Aug 29 with 2047 views | Northernr |
| The end of the beginning — Column on 20:56 - Aug 29 by Northolt_Rs |
Wow! A simply fantastic piece of writing and a truly fitting QPR ‘epitaph’ for Ebere. He has been a constant source of joy in some pretty dismal times. I just really hope Hodgson doesn’t cock it up for him....I want to see him fulfil all of his enormous potential. Fully expect to see him in an England shirt sometime soon. [Post edited 29 Aug 2020 20:58]
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Imagine if he ends up going to the Euros. | | | |
| The end of the beginning — Column on 22:17 - Aug 29 with 1971 views | GloryHunter |
| The end of the beginning — Column on 16:31 - Aug 29 by Northernr |
Well look I obviously don't agree with you, or Benny higher up, but you've both given me a lot to think about and expressed your points eruditely. I'm pleased I did leave it in because this thread has been really interesting, thought provoking and worthwhile IMO. Grown up discussion without descending into usual internet tropes.
Also, Marcus Bean worth reading in The Athletic’s long read on Eze today...
This post has been edited by an administrator |
Clive, you were absolutely right to refer to Eze's skin colour in your excellent piece, because it obviously IS relevant. For the fact that he was released by Arsenal, and then Millwall (Hahaha - their massive loss), and not even considered by Reading and Sunderland and whoever else.
(I'm hesitant about using the term "race", btw, because some scientists say there's no such thing - all human beings have a common 99.999% of DNA, and skin colour is a relatively minor recessive gene.)
It would be nice to think that QPR supporters are all colour-blind, and, to be fair, we are probably in the top five percent. But even in the normally sedate Upper Loft I have heard "Lazy Black C**t" shouted at Eze more often than I would care to mention.
The boy has had to battle against prejudice to get where he is today. No question about it. There must be so many talented young black footballers who have not had the determination that Eze had, or the good luck to be picked up by QPR just when he was about to pack it all in and stack shelves at Tesco. It is fantastic for us QPR supporters that we have a respected and experienced team of black coaching staff at youth level, which is able to win the trust of rejected youngsters such as Eze, and help them get the most from their talents. |  | | |
| The end of the beginning — Column on 23:26 - Aug 29 with 1921 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| The end of the beginning — Column on 16:31 - Aug 29 by Northernr |
Well look I obviously don't agree with you, or Benny higher up, but you've both given me a lot to think about and expressed your points eruditely. I'm pleased I did leave it in because this thread has been really interesting, thought provoking and worthwhile IMO. Grown up discussion without descending into usual internet tropes.
Also, Marcus Bean worth reading in The Athletic’s long read on Eze today...
This post has been edited by an administrator |
Thanks for that tip-off, Clive.
I'm reading it now. Not sure that's a good idea at this time of night. | |
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| The end of the beginning — Column on 00:49 - Aug 30 with 1861 views | qpr_1968 |
i've watched qpr in the 60's, 70's and 80's when the players were nearly 100% white.
i've heard rodney marsh called a lazy fat c..t, bowlsey a drunken slob, waddock a ginger doughnut, irish, scottish and welsh players and many more in that era abused when they've been OFF their game.
Up to the 90's, 00's until now, when we've had as many if not more black players in the team, and that has resulted in them being called lazy so and so's, if want for a better word.
ferdinand, adel, onuha, even sinclair and of course eze amongst others.
All these players i've mentioned have one thing in common, they are talented and when they are playing under par, not often, we as fans expect more from them, frustration sets in and the abuse starts, whether its a groan or something worse, in my eyes its wrong and i for one have never ever got on a players back with abuse, but it is showing a kind of respect in the wrong way.
you've probably gathered that i'm not very good with words on these forums, but i do speak from the heart.
northern, your posts are top notch and your views, the same as everyone else's, are each to their own.
keep up the good work......at the end of the day we are all qpr.....till the end. | |
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| The end of the beginning — Column on 08:22 - Aug 30 with 1775 views | daveB |
For what it's worth I thought Eze being called lazy was a lot more to do with his running style and how McClaren played him making the ball a hot potato and all about defensive shape rather than him being black but it would be daft to suggest we don't have problems at QPR.
You only have to remember the reaction every time Les Ferdinand hired a black coach or a black manager to know the issue is always bubbling under the surface and a look around twitter and facebook to comments from QPR fans about Black Lives Matters is pretty frightening, I'm convinced when crowds are back in plenty of our fans are going to boo when they take the knee |  | | |
| The end of the beginning — Column on 08:22 - Aug 30 with 1772 views | nix |
Brilliant discussion. As said previously, it's fantastic that people are listening to each other's views and while not necessarily agreeing, are being respectful. I'm not black, so can't claim to understand that experience but I am a woman, so can speak a bit about unconscious bias and how it can impact you being labelled in a different way. So women are often called hysterical when a man would be called annoyed or pissed off (no need to be hysterical luv). Women are often being aggressive or ball-breaking when a man would be assertive and standing his ground (why is she such a ball breaking bitch?). Women are sluts and slags when a man is a player or a lad (the village bike) or sometimes frigid, so you can't win either way. Women are hormonal when a man is irritated or tetchy (don't men have hormones???).
No one would call men (and sometimes women!) using these terms raving misogynists or even that they didn't respect or like women (well, maybe the sluts, slags and bikes trope). But it does impact how you feel and behave, in the workplace, in the street, even at home. It impacts your behaviour (I don't want to voice my opinion for fear of being labelled difficult or aggressive, so I play nice but don't get that great role or promotion). It may not be designed to be hurtful but it's wearing and belittling, frankly, and reductive.
I can't tell you how pissed off I get when watching TV how often the man has the idea and saves the day, rescuing the woman from certain death (and I'm not talking about physical strength here).In real life I'm surrounded by intelligent, lateral thinking, resourceful women who can deal with crises. Look out for it. It happens even when the writers are female (I've checked).
I wonder if that's how black people feel every single day. When they're called lazy; when they're told they just have to work harder, have more qualifications to get ahead (it's a level playing field/it should be the best candidate) while watching inadequate white people getting ahead of them; when they're good enough to be players but not coaches or managers but somehow Sam Allardyce, or Allan Pardew or Harry Redknapp get job after job, fail and yet still get invited on TV for their insights. If you haven't seen the interviews with Les and Chris Ramsey on the offish, watch it to see how very weary they are and how it IS a thing.
Maybe we should police our language a bit. At least until black people are called lazy no more often than white people for behaving the same way. Or that black players are told they read the game well or have an intelligent touch at least as much as they're called strong and powerful. It really won't cost us anything at all but it may make the world of difference to our black players and fans. |  | | |
| The end of the beginning — Column on 08:56 - Aug 30 with 1734 views | Northolt_Rs |
| The end of the beginning — Column on 21:08 - Aug 29 by Northernr |
Imagine if he ends up going to the Euros. |
Apparently he was very impressive in the friendly Palarse played yesterday so it’s going in the right direction already.... | |
| Scooters, Tunes, Trainers and QPR. |
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| The end of the beginning — Column on 10:18 - Aug 30 with 1668 views | Antti_Heinola |
| The end of the beginning — Column on 08:22 - Aug 30 by nix |
Brilliant discussion. As said previously, it's fantastic that people are listening to each other's views and while not necessarily agreeing, are being respectful. I'm not black, so can't claim to understand that experience but I am a woman, so can speak a bit about unconscious bias and how it can impact you being labelled in a different way. So women are often called hysterical when a man would be called annoyed or pissed off (no need to be hysterical luv). Women are often being aggressive or ball-breaking when a man would be assertive and standing his ground (why is she such a ball breaking bitch?). Women are sluts and slags when a man is a player or a lad (the village bike) or sometimes frigid, so you can't win either way. Women are hormonal when a man is irritated or tetchy (don't men have hormones???).
No one would call men (and sometimes women!) using these terms raving misogynists or even that they didn't respect or like women (well, maybe the sluts, slags and bikes trope). But it does impact how you feel and behave, in the workplace, in the street, even at home. It impacts your behaviour (I don't want to voice my opinion for fear of being labelled difficult or aggressive, so I play nice but don't get that great role or promotion). It may not be designed to be hurtful but it's wearing and belittling, frankly, and reductive.
I can't tell you how pissed off I get when watching TV how often the man has the idea and saves the day, rescuing the woman from certain death (and I'm not talking about physical strength here).In real life I'm surrounded by intelligent, lateral thinking, resourceful women who can deal with crises. Look out for it. It happens even when the writers are female (I've checked).
I wonder if that's how black people feel every single day. When they're called lazy; when they're told they just have to work harder, have more qualifications to get ahead (it's a level playing field/it should be the best candidate) while watching inadequate white people getting ahead of them; when they're good enough to be players but not coaches or managers but somehow Sam Allardyce, or Allan Pardew or Harry Redknapp get job after job, fail and yet still get invited on TV for their insights. If you haven't seen the interviews with Les and Chris Ramsey on the offish, watch it to see how very weary they are and how it IS a thing.
Maybe we should police our language a bit. At least until black people are called lazy no more often than white people for behaving the same way. Or that black players are told they read the game well or have an intelligent touch at least as much as they're called strong and powerful. It really won't cost us anything at all but it may make the world of difference to our black players and fans. |
Excellent post nix.
The film thing is a great example - I saw a thing once that said to watch out for how when a group is on mortal danger it's nearly always the woman who turns to the man and says 'now what do we do?'. After I read that it was staggering to see how often it happens.
Attitudes towards black players/coaches go back to the infamous Ron Noades quote about how the black lads are fast and great athletes but need the brains of the white players on the pitch with them. Sadly, there's still a residue of that today.
As an example, there was a real outcry on here when Nedum Onuoha was made captain of the club. A better man, a more respected man you could not wish to have as a captain. But he wasn't seen as a 'leader' by many. Yet last summer when Hall was made captain, there was barely a murmur, despite Hall being at least as quiet as Ned on the pitch, and arguably having much less credentials. Now that wasn't all about race - after all, I don't remember complaints about Danny Maddix being captain (although that was before social media, so who knows!), and since then plenty have been scornful of Barbet being captain. But at the time, the reaction to me was incedible, and I can't really understand it in any other way than a conscious or unconscious bias. |  |
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| The end of the beginning — Column on 12:34 - Aug 30 with 1566 views | derbyhoop |
I'm sure I read an interview with Eze where he said the coaching staff were on at him about not working hard enough and him admitting that he got released by previous clubs because he didn't do enough
Whether it was the coaching at QPR or his own growing maturity, but he developed into a top player over the last 2 years, combining real talent and work-rate. It's amazing how often players like Ainsworth or Mackie are praised for their work rate while naturally talented players like Ebs get abuse, because they make the game look easy.
Applying the black adjective is almost incidental but there are easy stereotypes to use. To some extent Clive's piece was only pointing out those perceptions held by other clubs but not completely excluded from a minority at QPR. |  |
| "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the Earth all one's lifetime." (Mark Twain)
Find me on twitter @derbyhoop and now on Bluesky |
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| The end of the beginning — Column on 12:47 - Aug 30 with 1550 views | NW5Hoop |
The surest measure that our club has problems, like all others, was the "Les's black mates" response to the Hasselbaink and Ramsay appointments. When, as is absolutely evident from the stats around coaching appointments, it is infinitely more likely that people appoint their white mates. And terrible white managers are just terrible managers. They never become "terrible managers who were only appointed because they were white".
Redknapp stacked his coaching staff with his actual mates. Who were all white. And no one complained about "Harry's white mates". That's because if you are white you are pretty much conditioned to see our world as white — all of us; not excluding myself. So when someone black is doing something we associate with white people (such as, per repeated examples from footballers in recent interviews, boarding a first class carriage) it gets questioned. [Post edited 30 Aug 2020 13:18]
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| The end of the beginning — Column on 13:10 - Aug 30 with 1527 views | Esox_Lucius |
| The end of the beginning — Column on 12:47 - Aug 30 by NW5Hoop |
The surest measure that our club has problems, like all others, was the "Les's black mates" response to the Hasselbaink and Ramsay appointments. When, as is absolutely evident from the stats around coaching appointments, it is infinitely more likely that people appoint their white mates. And terrible white managers are just terrible managers. They never become "terrible managers who were only appointed because they were white".
Redknapp stacked his coaching staff with his actual mates. Who were all white. And no one complained about "Harry's white mates". That's because if you are white you are pretty much conditioned to see our world as white — all of us; not excluding myself. So when someone black is doing something we associate with white people (such as, per repeated examples from footballers in recent interviews, boarding a first class carriage) it gets questioned. [Post edited 30 Aug 2020 13:18]
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That was one of the issues that really irked me about the "All lives matter" response to "Black Lives Matter"; it's not a demand for superiority, it's a demand for equality. |  |
| The grass is always greener. |
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| The end of the beginning — Column on 13:19 - Aug 30 with 1514 views | NW5Hoop |
| The end of the beginning — Column on 13:10 - Aug 30 by Esox_Lucius |
That was one of the issues that really irked me about the "All lives matter" response to "Black Lives Matter"; it's not a demand for superiority, it's a demand for equality. |
Yes, it's a reminder to value black lives as much as white lives. That is all. | | | |
| The end of the beginning — Column on 13:46 - Aug 30 with 1487 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| The end of the beginning — Column on 13:10 - Aug 30 by Esox_Lucius |
That was one of the issues that really irked me about the "All lives matter" response to "Black Lives Matter"; it's not a demand for superiority, it's a demand for equality. |
Came across this on Friday while reading a Red Sox blog. I think it's succinct and memorable.
Doug Williford, an American author:
"If my wife comes to me in obvious pain and asks "Do you love me?", an answer of "I love everyone" would be truthful, but also hurtful and cruel in the moment. If a co-worker comes to me upset and says "My father just died," a response of "Everyone's parents die" would be truthful, but hurtful and cruel in the moment. So when a friend speaks up in a time of obvious pain and hurt and says "Black lives matter," a response of "All lives matter" is truthful. But it's hurtful and cruel in the moment." | |
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| The end of the beginning — Column on 23:28 - Aug 30 with 1252 views | Myke |
| The end of the beginning — Column on 08:22 - Aug 30 by nix |
Brilliant discussion. As said previously, it's fantastic that people are listening to each other's views and while not necessarily agreeing, are being respectful. I'm not black, so can't claim to understand that experience but I am a woman, so can speak a bit about unconscious bias and how it can impact you being labelled in a different way. So women are often called hysterical when a man would be called annoyed or pissed off (no need to be hysterical luv). Women are often being aggressive or ball-breaking when a man would be assertive and standing his ground (why is she such a ball breaking bitch?). Women are sluts and slags when a man is a player or a lad (the village bike) or sometimes frigid, so you can't win either way. Women are hormonal when a man is irritated or tetchy (don't men have hormones???).
No one would call men (and sometimes women!) using these terms raving misogynists or even that they didn't respect or like women (well, maybe the sluts, slags and bikes trope). But it does impact how you feel and behave, in the workplace, in the street, even at home. It impacts your behaviour (I don't want to voice my opinion for fear of being labelled difficult or aggressive, so I play nice but don't get that great role or promotion). It may not be designed to be hurtful but it's wearing and belittling, frankly, and reductive.
I can't tell you how pissed off I get when watching TV how often the man has the idea and saves the day, rescuing the woman from certain death (and I'm not talking about physical strength here).In real life I'm surrounded by intelligent, lateral thinking, resourceful women who can deal with crises. Look out for it. It happens even when the writers are female (I've checked).
I wonder if that's how black people feel every single day. When they're called lazy; when they're told they just have to work harder, have more qualifications to get ahead (it's a level playing field/it should be the best candidate) while watching inadequate white people getting ahead of them; when they're good enough to be players but not coaches or managers but somehow Sam Allardyce, or Allan Pardew or Harry Redknapp get job after job, fail and yet still get invited on TV for their insights. If you haven't seen the interviews with Les and Chris Ramsey on the offish, watch it to see how very weary they are and how it IS a thing.
Maybe we should police our language a bit. At least until black people are called lazy no more often than white people for behaving the same way. Or that black players are told they read the game well or have an intelligent touch at least as much as they're called strong and powerful. It really won't cost us anything at all but it may make the world of difference to our black players and fans. |
Superb post nix - really great insight into the normal daily experiences of a perceived 'weaker' group. The sexist thing is quite interesting. I think most men have at this stage have been educated to at least not be blatantly sexist in their comment and attitudes, but I sometimes find the opposite is not true. I was a stay -at - home dad for ten years when my kids were small. My male friends (as all males like to do (sexist comment alert!) avoided the issue entirely, but my female buddies or wive's of male buddies were much more vocal in their 'surprise' (aka disapproval). "Oh my husband would never be able to do that he wouldn't have the patience' 'Sure my old man would burn water never mind cook a dinner' etc etc. There was almost a pride in the 'manliness' of their men, and I was somehow a lesser man than them. It made me think, if I was getting these less than subtle disapproving vibes for being at home while my wife worked, in the 21st century, how did my grandfather manage in the forties and fifties raising my father and uncle on his own, after his wife died from TB aged 32.? | | | |
| The end of the beginning — Column (n/t) on 08:26 - Aug 31 with 1155 views | nix |
| The end of the beginning — Column on 23:28 - Aug 30 by Myke |
Superb post nix - really great insight into the normal daily experiences of a perceived 'weaker' group. The sexist thing is quite interesting. I think most men have at this stage have been educated to at least not be blatantly sexist in their comment and attitudes, but I sometimes find the opposite is not true. I was a stay -at - home dad for ten years when my kids were small. My male friends (as all males like to do (sexist comment alert!) avoided the issue entirely, but my female buddies or wive's of male buddies were much more vocal in their 'surprise' (aka disapproval). "Oh my husband would never be able to do that he wouldn't have the patience' 'Sure my old man would burn water never mind cook a dinner' etc etc. There was almost a pride in the 'manliness' of their men, and I was somehow a lesser man than them. It made me think, if I was getting these less than subtle disapproving vibes for being at home while my wife worked, in the 21st century, how did my grandfather manage in the forties and fifties raising my father and uncle on his own, after his wife died from TB aged 32.? |
[Post edited 31 Aug 2020 17:30]
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| The end of the beginning — Column on 09:00 - Aug 31 with 1128 views | NorthantsHoop |
Exactly Clive, it has been an absolute pleasure to watch Ebere Eze from my upper loft seat for the last 2 and a half years. I never saw him as a lazy player, for me he just had talent, he deserves his big chance. I will continue to watch his development with great interest and will continue to get updates from one of my friends who is
a Palace season ticket holder. [Post edited 31 Aug 2020 9:03]
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| The end of the beginning — Column on 23:08 - Sep 3 with 738 views | CliveWilsonSaid |
| The end of the beginning — Column on 09:00 - Aug 31 by NorthantsHoop |
Exactly Clive, it has been an absolute pleasure to watch Ebere Eze from my upper loft seat for the last 2 and a half years. I never saw him as a lazy player, for me he just had talent, he deserves his big chance. I will continue to watch his development with great interest and will continue to get updates from one of my friends who is
a Palace season ticket holder. [Post edited 31 Aug 2020 9:03]
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Apparently he's pulled out of the England U-21 squad with a calf strain.
Looks like we've sold them a dud. Lol. |  |
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