| WELSH INDEPENDENCE 09:25 - May 16 with 4759 views | johnlangy |
This is the letter I had published in the Evening Post on Saturday night.
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Wales or West Anglia
In the not too distant future it’s quite likely that Scotland will be independent. It’s also possible that Northern Ireland may have become part of a united Ireland. If that happens the Welsh voice in the remaining ‘union’ will be almost non-existent. Wales would become a sort of West Anglia, just another region of England.
As that possible situation begins to emerge talk of a Welsh Independence referendum will inevitably start.
When faced with that question most people say we can’t afford it. And when you ask them why they believe that they say we have a large fiscal deficit, £15 billion at the last time of measuring. And that’s it. The most important question that could be asked of the Welsh people for centuries and most people look at two numbers as fed to us by the media, Welsh revenue and Welsh expenditure, and say it won’t work. And they don’t ask even the most blatantly obvious question, how are the two numbers calculated.
Welsh revenue means Welsh taxes. But not all Welsh taxes are paid in Wales so are not included in the total. Many companies with HQ’s outside Wales, which is the majority of large companies, pay their VAT and Corporation Tax where their HQ’s are based. So Tesco, for example, pay theirs in Hertfordshire. If you allow for all the other companies doing the same thing the amount to be added to the ‘Welsh Taxes’ figure would be huge.
Welsh Expenditure, you would probably imagine, would mean money spent in Wales. But it includes a huge amount that is not spent in Wales. If the UK government decides to spend on what they describe as a ‘UK’ project 5% is automatically allocated as Welsh expenditure, even though it’s not spent in Wales. For example, when Trident is built approximately £6 billion will be added to Welsh Expenditure (based on population percentage of the UK) even though that money will not be spent in Wales. Then there’s the High Speed rail projects, Crossrail etc etc. Even the Olympics cost us £500 million in Welsh Expenditure. And the benefit to Wales of all these projects was/is/will be minimal. As an independent country Wales would not be liable for these enormous costs.
Also consider what money a Welsh government would not spend. The Welsh ‘share’ of the cost of defence is around £2.3 billion. If Wales was independent our government would probably spend a fairly similar amount to Ireland. That would be about £500 million, an immediate saving of around £1.8 billion. And defence is just one example.
The truth is that the real deficit is far smaller than the £15 billion quoted. And, even though the REAL figure will be a large amount it’s a fact that just about every country in the World runs a fiscal deficit. Wales, as an independent country, would be no different.
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Thoughts ? |  | | |  |
| WELSH INDEPENDENCE on 15:22 - May 16 with 1308 views | trampie |
| WELSH INDEPENDENCE on 15:09 - May 16 by BytholWyn |
You're critique of the performance of the Labour Welsh Government has some merit SPboy - particularly in the areas of Education and Health - and the obvious conclusion would be to vote for another party in elections to the Senedd. However, like so many others you are so, so ready to forgive the appalling record of successive Westminster governments in its dealings with Wales.
Take the issue of infrastructure investment. To blame the Welsh Government on this front is laughable when you consider the manner in which successive Tory and Labour governments have ploughed pretty much all major transport spending into London and the South-East. A perfect example is Crossrail. One of Gordon Brown's last acts was to give the go-ahead for Crossrail - with £5.6billion of government funds - without Barnett formula consequentials (i.e. no extra funding for the Welsh Government). This is but one small example - which stands in stark contrast to the failure of the Westminster government to finance M4 improvements - for a modest £1 billion. And that isn't enough - what with Crossrail 2 and HS2 from London to Birmingham in the pipeline.
The plain truth is that the Tories and Labour alike have, in practice, acted as the London and Home Counties Nationalist party - masquerading as the British National Party (shame the name's taken...). I despair at the subservience of so many of my fellow countrymen and women, grasping desperately at whatever meagre crumbs that fall from the masters table.
Welsh independence is a pipedream for as long as we have so little self-respect and dignity. Something the Westminster parties understand only too well. |
Good post BytholWyn.  |  |
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| WELSH INDEPENDENCE on 15:25 - May 16 with 1307 views | BytholWyn |
I wonder how much of the "more than 40%" Government funding of a £500 billion infrastructure spend ( http://www.weholite.co.uk/2017/04/12/500-billion-spend/) will go on Welsh infrastructure projects? A tiny fraction I suggest, given that the headline projects mentioned (the Thames Tideway Tunnel -
aka the London Sewer - HS2, Crossrail) are all based in or around London. |  | | |
| WELSH INDEPENDENCE on 15:36 - May 16 with 1295 views | Private_Partz |
A very good ketter John and don't be put off by distractors. It won't happen right away but anyone who thinks May's hard Brexit will not result in the break up of the UK is extremely naive. It is very likely.
Our good friend Jac O The North thinks Wales would be better off independant and outside of the EU umbrella. I don't agree with that but I see no reason why within the EU we could not do an Estonia or an Eire.
I am actually in favour of keeping the Union but I fear Brexit will drive me down the Independabce route.
The biggest problem for me is our poor quality of Politician. Years of Welsh Labour means we could have these rank incompetents running the whole show if they jumped on the same bandwagon. I hope the electorate wake up long before that happens and ensure we have politicians of quality. I think the difference between ours and Scotland is very noticeable. |  |
| You have mission in life to hold out your hand,
To help the other guy out,
Help your fellow man.
Stan Ridgway
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| WELSH INDEPENDENCE on 16:06 - May 16 with 1274 views | SPboy |
| WELSH INDEPENDENCE on 15:09 - May 16 by BytholWyn |
You're critique of the performance of the Labour Welsh Government has some merit SPboy - particularly in the areas of Education and Health - and the obvious conclusion would be to vote for another party in elections to the Senedd. However, like so many others you are so, so ready to forgive the appalling record of successive Westminster governments in its dealings with Wales.
Take the issue of infrastructure investment. To blame the Welsh Government on this front is laughable when you consider the manner in which successive Tory and Labour governments have ploughed pretty much all major transport spending into London and the South-East. A perfect example is Crossrail. One of Gordon Brown's last acts was to give the go-ahead for Crossrail - with £5.6billion of government funds - without Barnett formula consequentials (i.e. no extra funding for the Welsh Government). This is but one small example - which stands in stark contrast to the failure of the Westminster government to finance M4 improvements - for a modest £1 billion. And that isn't enough - what with Crossrail 2 and HS2 from London to Birmingham in the pipeline.
The plain truth is that the Tories and Labour alike have, in practice, acted as the London and Home Counties Nationalist party - masquerading as the British National Party (shame the name's taken...). I despair at the subservience of so many of my fellow countrymen and women, grasping desperately at whatever meagre crumbs that fall from the masters table.
Welsh independence is a pipedream for as long as we have so little self-respect and dignity. Something the Westminster parties understand only too well. |
There is no forgiveness from me for Westminster past or present and especially not for Blair turning Labour into the Red Tory party, Gordon Brown for his stealth taxes on the working man or David Cameron for his cowardice after the Brexit vote.
My point about the Welsh Infrastructure projects is that the Welsh government are effectively in-fight & delaying the start of an essential route into & out of Wales. They are fighting among themselves about nimbys, greens, effects on wild-life, some even suggest there is no need for a relief road. In many developed & un-developed countries this project would have started & even close to completion by now. Our lot are still 'debating' it.
I wonder how long the WAG will delay rail electrification from Cardiff to Swansea for, now that they have to fund it. Why could the project not be started now? My guess is that they'll hold off, plead poverty & continue to point the finger elsewhere. It will not happen for many years.
When the Welsh government gives us something to respect them for, then and only then will they get my support for further devolution.
As for "crumbs that fall from the masters table", our lot need to get their act together or are you happy that are continually out-smarted by the English regions for centralised funding? |  | | |
| WELSH INDEPENDENCE on 16:41 - May 16 with 1262 views | BytholWyn |
| WELSH INDEPENDENCE on 16:06 - May 16 by SPboy |
There is no forgiveness from me for Westminster past or present and especially not for Blair turning Labour into the Red Tory party, Gordon Brown for his stealth taxes on the working man or David Cameron for his cowardice after the Brexit vote.
My point about the Welsh Infrastructure projects is that the Welsh government are effectively in-fight & delaying the start of an essential route into & out of Wales. They are fighting among themselves about nimbys, greens, effects on wild-life, some even suggest there is no need for a relief road. In many developed & un-developed countries this project would have started & even close to completion by now. Our lot are still 'debating' it.
I wonder how long the WAG will delay rail electrification from Cardiff to Swansea for, now that they have to fund it. Why could the project not be started now? My guess is that they'll hold off, plead poverty & continue to point the finger elsewhere. It will not happen for many years.
When the Welsh government gives us something to respect them for, then and only then will they get my support for further devolution.
As for "crumbs that fall from the masters table", our lot need to get their act together or are you happy that are continually out-smarted by the English regions for centralised funding? |
Given the huge sums involved it's absolutely right that the correct decisions are made about the M4 route. Much as I'm in favour of the improvements we need to make sure we make the best value for money decision - not least because the Labour government's preferred black route will mean less to spend on infrastructure projects elsewhere in Wales. But again, I ask why is the Welsh government being expected to fund this at all? Is Wales a part of the UK or not? You can't champion the British Nationalist cause and simultaneously say it's OK for successive Tory and Labour Westminster governments to wilfully neglect the marginal regions over decades. North-East and South-West England could make similar claims - but it's up to them to champion their cause, rather than elect career politicians such as Tony Blair who have no interest in representing the interests of the area that elected them.
Just as the divide between rich and poor has grown, so has the divide between the rich regions and the poorest (with the two things closely interlinked). It's shameful how the disparity between the GDP per head in Wales and London is now the same as between the poorest and richest regions of Germany. Remember how we laughed at the Trabants with their cotton waste doors? Yet, in under 30 years the Germans have gone a good way to bridging the enormous gulf in wealth on re-unification - because of an expensive meaningful commitment to reconstructing the East. Whereas the direction of travel for Germany is towards a diminishing divide in wealth, in the UK things are only going to get worse with HS2, Crossrail et al. A Westminster government that was genuinely committed to the prosperity of all of its citizens would prioritise infrastructure spending on the parts that need it most. That would manifest itself as a high speed network that starts at its extremities (Swansea, Newcastle, Plymouth, Liverpool) and works its way towards London. It's no surprise that what we will get is the exact opposite.
When Wales played Moldova last year the match-day commentator mentioned that Wales is one of only three European countries - along with Moldova and Albania - not to have a single mile of electrified railway. I guess I should be rejoicing that we will at some point leave this exclusive club...
We can agree on one thing SPboy - that we in Wales need to get our act together in arguing our case. But that shouldn't be an excuse for the charade that is the Westminster parties' claim that they represent the interests of Wales. Nothing could be further from the truth. | | | |
| WELSH INDEPENDENCE on 16:49 - May 16 with 1259 views | yescomeon |
Post-Brexit the economic argument against independence is moot. |  |
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| WELSH INDEPENDENCE on 17:40 - May 16 with 1234 views | johnlangy |
| WELSH INDEPENDENCE on 16:06 - May 16 by SPboy |
There is no forgiveness from me for Westminster past or present and especially not for Blair turning Labour into the Red Tory party, Gordon Brown for his stealth taxes on the working man or David Cameron for his cowardice after the Brexit vote.
My point about the Welsh Infrastructure projects is that the Welsh government are effectively in-fight & delaying the start of an essential route into & out of Wales. They are fighting among themselves about nimbys, greens, effects on wild-life, some even suggest there is no need for a relief road. In many developed & un-developed countries this project would have started & even close to completion by now. Our lot are still 'debating' it.
I wonder how long the WAG will delay rail electrification from Cardiff to Swansea for, now that they have to fund it. Why could the project not be started now? My guess is that they'll hold off, plead poverty & continue to point the finger elsewhere. It will not happen for many years.
When the Welsh government gives us something to respect them for, then and only then will they get my support for further devolution.
As for "crumbs that fall from the masters table", our lot need to get their act together or are you happy that are continually out-smarted by the English regions for centralised funding? |
Rail electrification is a Network Rail project, not a WAG one. | | | |
| WELSH INDEPENDENCE on 18:01 - May 16 with 1223 views | johnlangy |
| WELSH INDEPENDENCE on 16:41 - May 16 by BytholWyn |
Given the huge sums involved it's absolutely right that the correct decisions are made about the M4 route. Much as I'm in favour of the improvements we need to make sure we make the best value for money decision - not least because the Labour government's preferred black route will mean less to spend on infrastructure projects elsewhere in Wales. But again, I ask why is the Welsh government being expected to fund this at all? Is Wales a part of the UK or not? You can't champion the British Nationalist cause and simultaneously say it's OK for successive Tory and Labour Westminster governments to wilfully neglect the marginal regions over decades. North-East and South-West England could make similar claims - but it's up to them to champion their cause, rather than elect career politicians such as Tony Blair who have no interest in representing the interests of the area that elected them.
Just as the divide between rich and poor has grown, so has the divide between the rich regions and the poorest (with the two things closely interlinked). It's shameful how the disparity between the GDP per head in Wales and London is now the same as between the poorest and richest regions of Germany. Remember how we laughed at the Trabants with their cotton waste doors? Yet, in under 30 years the Germans have gone a good way to bridging the enormous gulf in wealth on re-unification - because of an expensive meaningful commitment to reconstructing the East. Whereas the direction of travel for Germany is towards a diminishing divide in wealth, in the UK things are only going to get worse with HS2, Crossrail et al. A Westminster government that was genuinely committed to the prosperity of all of its citizens would prioritise infrastructure spending on the parts that need it most. That would manifest itself as a high speed network that starts at its extremities (Swansea, Newcastle, Plymouth, Liverpool) and works its way towards London. It's no surprise that what we will get is the exact opposite.
When Wales played Moldova last year the match-day commentator mentioned that Wales is one of only three European countries - along with Moldova and Albania - not to have a single mile of electrified railway. I guess I should be rejoicing that we will at some point leave this exclusive club...
We can agree on one thing SPboy - that we in Wales need to get our act together in arguing our case. But that shouldn't be an excuse for the charade that is the Westminster parties' claim that they represent the interests of Wales. Nothing could be further from the truth. |
Very well said BytholWyn. | | | |
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| WELSH INDEPENDENCE on 21:15 - May 16 with 1198 views | Kilkennyjack |
Great letter John.
Clearly Wales will only move from its current bottom position in the uk league table, if welsh people take responsibility for their own country. The current model simply does not work for wales. The Tory English nationalist party knows little of wales ...and cares even less.
Its clear both Scotland and the north of Ireland will be free as a direct result of the bonkers Brexit vote. Wales has a small chance to save itself.
Defend Wales, and vote for our lovely leanne 👠|  |
| Beware of the Risen People
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| WELSH INDEPENDENCE on 22:02 - May 16 with 1179 views | SPboy |
| WELSH INDEPENDENCE on 17:40 - May 16 by johnlangy |
Rail electrification is a Network Rail project, not a WAG one. |
Rail electrification from London to Cardiff is being funded by central government. Anything else, valleys & further west is down to the devolved government assembly | | | |
| WELSH INDEPENDENCE on 23:04 - May 16 with 1165 views | BytholWyn |
| WELSH INDEPENDENCE on 22:02 - May 16 by SPboy |
Rail electrification from London to Cardiff is being funded by central government. Anything else, valleys & further west is down to the devolved government assembly |
Sorry to disappoint: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-39151392
No mention there of Welsh Government involvement - the delays on the Swansea and Valleys electrification down to Network Rail and the Department of Transport. Sounds like a Westminster government cock-up to me. Not the narrative you want perhaps... | | | |
| WELSH INDEPENDENCE on 09:33 - May 17 with 1139 views | johnlangy |
| WELSH INDEPENDENCE on 16:49 - May 16 by yescomeon |
Post-Brexit the economic argument against independence is moot. |
Could you expand on that ? | | | |
| WELSH INDEPENDENCE on 09:53 - May 17 with 1131 views | SPboy |
| WELSH INDEPENDENCE on 23:04 - May 16 by BytholWyn |
Sorry to disappoint: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-39151392
No mention there of Welsh Government involvement - the delays on the Swansea and Valleys electrification down to Network Rail and the Department of Transport. Sounds like a Westminster government cock-up to me. Not the narrative you want perhaps... |
Disappointed ? Not me ... your link states
"Welsh Government Economy Secretary Ken Skates said he was pressing Westminster for confirmation that electrification to Swansea will be delivered after Cardiff electrification is finished, and called for the Department of Transport to pass responsibility for rail infrastructure in Wales to the devolved institutions."
How confident are you it is going to happen? Original date was 2018, now it's between 2019 & 2024. As long as it reaches Cardiff do you think the WAG cares about the rest of Wales ? | | | |
| WELSH INDEPENDENCE on 12:21 - May 17 with 1116 views | johnlangy |
| WELSH INDEPENDENCE on 09:53 - May 17 by SPboy |
Disappointed ? Not me ... your link states
"Welsh Government Economy Secretary Ken Skates said he was pressing Westminster for confirmation that electrification to Swansea will be delivered after Cardiff electrification is finished, and called for the Department of Transport to pass responsibility for rail infrastructure in Wales to the devolved institutions."
How confident are you it is going to happen? Original date was 2018, now it's between 2019 & 2024. As long as it reaches Cardiff do you think the WAG cares about the rest of Wales ? |
I imagine what he's saying is that, at the moment it is Network Rails responsibility. If it gets devolved to the WAG then things might be different as you say. | | | |
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