| The Trust selling up 14:31 - Oct 23 with 26116 views | Darran |
Why are people saying the Trust won't sell up then?
Perhaps they will who knows?
Philip? [Post edited 23 Oct 2016 14:32]
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| The Trust selling up on 00:27 - Oct 26 with 1308 views | DwightYorkeSuperstar |
| The Trust selling up on 00:18 - Oct 26 by Darran |
Well you wouldn't have any applicants because I assume you'd have to be on the Trust for a certain amount of time.
Seriously though as bad as these revelations are they shouldn't deflect what's gone on with the shareholders.
The reason this club is currently in a massive mess on and off the field isn't because of the Trust.
"IN MY OPINION" |
But surely more members would have considered putting themselves forward if they were aware they would be financially compensated for their time and effort. It is appearing more and more likely that information was deliberately withheld to try and ensure Huw Cooze remained in the Supporters Director role.
I agree The Trust aren't the reason the club is in a mess off the field, however they are now a very big part of that mess. How can The Trust fight on behalf of its members when many now have little to no trust in the organisation? |  |
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| The Trust selling up on 00:35 - Oct 26 with 1296 views | Darran |
| The Trust selling up on 00:27 - Oct 26 by DwightYorkeSuperstar |
But surely more members would have considered putting themselves forward if they were aware they would be financially compensated for their time and effort. It is appearing more and more likely that information was deliberately withheld to try and ensure Huw Cooze remained in the Supporters Director role.
I agree The Trust aren't the reason the club is in a mess off the field, however they are now a very big part of that mess. How can The Trust fight on behalf of its members when many now have little to no trust in the organisation? |
I'm not sure they would if they had to spend (I think) two years putting the hard graft in.
So just for example the whole Trust board resign en masse in the morning what happens then? | |
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| The Trust selling up on 00:41 - Oct 26 with 1276 views | DwightYorkeSuperstar |
| The Trust selling up on 00:35 - Oct 26 by Darran |
I'm not sure they would if they had to spend (I think) two years putting the hard graft in.
So just for example the whole Trust board resign en masse in the morning what happens then? |
I think just Huw Cooze should resign. Any person in a position of importance at The Trust who knew and decided to keep it private are also hugely to blame, however like you implied, all resigning would be a terrible thing to happen right now. | |
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| The Trust selling up on 01:37 - Oct 26 with 1214 views | UplandsJack |
| The Trust selling up on 00:35 - Oct 26 by Darran |
I'm not sure they would if they had to spend (I think) two years putting the hard graft in.
So just for example the whole Trust board resign en masse in the morning what happens then? |
Iknow it's only a what if scenario Darren but I don't believe anybody, is calling for the ENTIRE trust board to resign. So therefore I wouldnt expect to hear that on mass they had. Why should they? By and large they work hard on our behalf and most grateful I am. But that all said that does not put them beyond question/accountability..... Lest we not forget, only a few years ago most fans thought HJ could walk on water for Christ sake.. Don't think there are more than a mini full who think it now though...
I strongly believe Huw Cooze needs to step down immediately. I also feel there are others higher up within the trust, Phil Summer, Jim White and frankly any other board members who were aware of these payments and keeping it from the people they represent, need to explain their reasons for frankly misleading us.....
Let's not forget this isn't the first time HC position as SD has been brought into question. Yet at no time was it disclosed he was being paid £40k per year for the last FIVE YEARS, to do a job that he was being credited for doing for basically nothing other than expenses...... Remember this snipit of the statement Jim put up on here on 24 December...
Jim White stated the following, in fact the full statement has been bumped on another thread.......
"""Some of the people who you have mentioned in your posts (PS and HC for example) do a MASSIVE amount for the trust completely UNPAID because they care. For example, both of those 2 guys i know spent some 6 hours in the car to get to London for a recent 10am Trust related meeting. That meant 5am starts and late finishes but they did it because they care about the trust and they care about the fans. They would never ask for this to be published but I am telling you it happened (the details of the meeting will be made known in the coming months as we mentioned in our e-Newsletter) and they did it from their own time. There are COUNTLESS other examples I could give you of Phil, Huw, Stuart, Nigel, Andy, Duncan, Cath, Alan, Viv (x 2), Ian, Will, Ron, Gwyn, David, Barbara and me giving up our own time at our own cost to try and do what we think is right to help the trust and club. """
Finally, I'm surprised and a little disappointed Phil hasn't come forward and commented since this has unfolded.... Seemingly leaving Uxbridge of face the music alone..... [Post edited 26 Oct 2016 2:07]
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| The Trust selling up on 06:57 - Oct 26 with 1155 views | barry_island |
Don't forget this is all unfolding against the background of the school half term when many Trust reps are as likely to be on leave as the rest of us. Uxbridge has done a phenomenal job this week and at times I feel as if he doesn't believe the party line himself.
We don't know if ithe Director's fee was £40k a year since 2011. It could be less, it could be more.
We don't know when others knew about the payments, it may have been since 2011 it may have been since last week so to call for resignations en masse is wrong. We do however need a new Trust SD immediately due to the perception if nothing else.
Transparency has to improve from the current lead shield position and I'm confident some steps are being made in this direction.
The Trust Board are without exception ALL better fans than me, I haven't maintained my trust membership over the years, I wasn't at the Patti, I wasn't there when we lost 4-0 at home to Kidderminster, I don't have a season ticket, haven't since we've been in the Prem. I have turned my back on the club numerous times but still get drawn back.
The current owners and departing shareholders must be rubbing their hands with glee as it distracts from the position the club is in, where they have put it.
This drama queen has never felt more detached from the club than now. I wish I could just smile. [Post edited 26 Oct 2016 7:09]
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| Swansea City, THE Austerity Club. |
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| The Trust selling up on 07:45 - Oct 26 with 1095 views | NeathJack |
| The Trust selling up on 01:37 - Oct 26 by UplandsJack |
Iknow it's only a what if scenario Darren but I don't believe anybody, is calling for the ENTIRE trust board to resign. So therefore I wouldnt expect to hear that on mass they had. Why should they? By and large they work hard on our behalf and most grateful I am. But that all said that does not put them beyond question/accountability..... Lest we not forget, only a few years ago most fans thought HJ could walk on water for Christ sake.. Don't think there are more than a mini full who think it now though...
I strongly believe Huw Cooze needs to step down immediately. I also feel there are others higher up within the trust, Phil Summer, Jim White and frankly any other board members who were aware of these payments and keeping it from the people they represent, need to explain their reasons for frankly misleading us.....
Let's not forget this isn't the first time HC position as SD has been brought into question. Yet at no time was it disclosed he was being paid £40k per year for the last FIVE YEARS, to do a job that he was being credited for doing for basically nothing other than expenses...... Remember this snipit of the statement Jim put up on here on 24 December...
Jim White stated the following, in fact the full statement has been bumped on another thread.......
"""Some of the people who you have mentioned in your posts (PS and HC for example) do a MASSIVE amount for the trust completely UNPAID because they care. For example, both of those 2 guys i know spent some 6 hours in the car to get to London for a recent 10am Trust related meeting. That meant 5am starts and late finishes but they did it because they care about the trust and they care about the fans. They would never ask for this to be published but I am telling you it happened (the details of the meeting will be made known in the coming months as we mentioned in our e-Newsletter) and they did it from their own time. There are COUNTLESS other examples I could give you of Phil, Huw, Stuart, Nigel, Andy, Duncan, Cath, Alan, Viv (x 2), Ian, Will, Ron, Gwyn, David, Barbara and me giving up our own time at our own cost to try and do what we think is right to help the trust and club. """
Finally, I'm surprised and a little disappointed Phil hasn't come forward and commented since this has unfolded.... Seemingly leaving Uxbridge of face the music alone..... [Post edited 26 Oct 2016 2:07]
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I think you'll find Phil is away on a family holiday.
People have lives outside of this bubble. |  | | |
| The Trust selling up on 08:13 - Oct 26 with 1055 views | Return_of_the_Jack |
| The Trust selling up on 07:45 - Oct 26 by NeathJack |
I think you'll find Phil is away on a family holiday.
People have lives outside of this bubble. |
Huw Cooze however, is employed and paid full time? [Post edited 26 Oct 2016 8:13]
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| The Trust selling up on 08:15 - Oct 26 with 1038 views | SwansNZ |
| The Trust selling up on 08:13 - Oct 26 by Return_of_the_Jack |
Huw Cooze however, is employed and paid full time? [Post edited 26 Oct 2016 8:13]
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You might not believe this, but I get paid while I'm on leave from work. |  |
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| The Trust selling up on 08:23 - Oct 26 with 1019 views | Return_of_the_Jack |
| The Trust selling up on 08:15 - Oct 26 by SwansNZ |
You might not believe this, but I get paid while I'm on leave from work. |
So you don't think as a PAID DIRECTOR he should put a statement out there, at the minimum on the trust website? All of which can be done via a computer?
He isn't a volunteer remember. | | | |
| The Trust selling up on 08:43 - Oct 26 with 988 views | monmouth |
| The Trust selling up on 00:18 - Oct 26 by Darran |
Well you wouldn't have any applicants because I assume you'd have to be on the Trust for a certain amount of time.
Seriously though as bad as these revelations are they shouldn't deflect what's gone on with the shareholders.
The reason this club is currently in a massive mess on and off the field isn't because of the Trust.
"IN MY OPINION" |
I totally agree that the real anger should be targeted at the old Board. They are beyond contempt.
Because of that though, we need a very strong - and different - Trust now. Phil and Ux have said this themselves, so nothing controversial there. In my experience strength comes from contention and dealing with it openly, not from papering over cracks. Trouble is it too often gets personal (or is taken personally - there is always a choice of how you take things and how you react) and that gets in the way of this healthy contention.
Some simmering 'boils' do need lancing in my opinion.
For example, I don't really care that HC gets 40K, but I would like to know why it was always portrayed implicitly as unpaid service - and it was. I just don't get that at all. What was the purpose behind not publicising this as a paid post for so long? I know the argument runs that we couldn't have got anyone better for the price, and this is no slight on HC, but we just don't know do we.
Also to implement any fresh approach we need, if we can find one, a new person for that SD role. HC is immensely valuable, but for both internal credibility and a fresh pair of eyes, not culturally conditioned (as we all get with time), change is needed. Clasey has summed this up well.
New blood is needed on the Trust (again echoed by all on the Trust). This clearly won't happen (the last elections proved it) without 'pump priming'. This can't just be left to elections where familiar names will be recycled, as that is the way of the world.
Of course, if the Trust is sidelined by the new bunch, some of this may not matter anyway as an SD would be pretty useless without an agreed mandate, and the battle plan will be different, but the Trust still needs to regenerate and show a strong strategy for the new world and (maybe severe) turbulence and argument is part of that.
We need the Trust more than ever. I think the vast majority have confidence in people like Phil and Andy to get us there. I do. But that doesn't mean trying to shut down criticism, in whatever form, but to see it in its context and place. Even hysterical criticism can be used as fuel for non-hysterical debate.
I know, sanctimonious and condescending in parts, and disjointed, but I wanted it out of my head early, so I can get on with other stuff. Also easy to chuck stones from the comfort of a chair, when others have to do the hard work.
Oh and just to repeat, imo the real anger and contempt should be aimed at the absolute pieces of shit (that's you Jenkins, Morgan, Dineen, Zwed et al, in case you are still in any doubt) that have put us in this position, not at the people trying to help get us out. |  |
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| The Trust selling up on 08:47 - Oct 26 with 975 views | SwansNZ |
| The Trust selling up on 08:23 - Oct 26 by Return_of_the_Jack |
So you don't think as a PAID DIRECTOR he should put a statement out there, at the minimum on the trust website? All of which can be done via a computer?
He isn't a volunteer remember. |
Yes, probably, although I'm not sure what he would say. | |
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| The Trust selling up on 08:50 - Oct 26 with 961 views | barry_island |
| The Trust selling up on 08:43 - Oct 26 by monmouth |
I totally agree that the real anger should be targeted at the old Board. They are beyond contempt.
Because of that though, we need a very strong - and different - Trust now. Phil and Ux have said this themselves, so nothing controversial there. In my experience strength comes from contention and dealing with it openly, not from papering over cracks. Trouble is it too often gets personal (or is taken personally - there is always a choice of how you take things and how you react) and that gets in the way of this healthy contention.
Some simmering 'boils' do need lancing in my opinion.
For example, I don't really care that HC gets 40K, but I would like to know why it was always portrayed implicitly as unpaid service - and it was. I just don't get that at all. What was the purpose behind not publicising this as a paid post for so long? I know the argument runs that we couldn't have got anyone better for the price, and this is no slight on HC, but we just don't know do we.
Also to implement any fresh approach we need, if we can find one, a new person for that SD role. HC is immensely valuable, but for both internal credibility and a fresh pair of eyes, not culturally conditioned (as we all get with time), change is needed. Clasey has summed this up well.
New blood is needed on the Trust (again echoed by all on the Trust). This clearly won't happen (the last elections proved it) without 'pump priming'. This can't just be left to elections where familiar names will be recycled, as that is the way of the world.
Of course, if the Trust is sidelined by the new bunch, some of this may not matter anyway as an SD would be pretty useless without an agreed mandate, and the battle plan will be different, but the Trust still needs to regenerate and show a strong strategy for the new world and (maybe severe) turbulence and argument is part of that.
We need the Trust more than ever. I think the vast majority have confidence in people like Phil and Andy to get us there. I do. But that doesn't mean trying to shut down criticism, in whatever form, but to see it in its context and place. Even hysterical criticism can be used as fuel for non-hysterical debate.
I know, sanctimonious and condescending in parts, and disjointed, but I wanted it out of my head early, so I can get on with other stuff. Also easy to chuck stones from the comfort of a chair, when others have to do the hard work.
Oh and just to repeat, imo the real anger and contempt should be aimed at the absolute pieces of shit (that's you Jenkins, Morgan, Dineen, Zwed et al, in case you are still in any doubt) that have put us in this position, not at the people trying to help get us out. |
Andy = Uxbridge?? | |
| Swansea City, THE Austerity Club. |
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| The Trust selling up on 08:54 - Oct 26 with 948 views | monmouth |
| The Trust selling up on 08:50 - Oct 26 by barry_island |
Andy = Uxbridge?? |
Yes | |
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| The Trust selling up on 08:55 - Oct 26 with 947 views | costalotta |
| The Trust selling up on 08:43 - Oct 26 by monmouth |
I totally agree that the real anger should be targeted at the old Board. They are beyond contempt.
Because of that though, we need a very strong - and different - Trust now. Phil and Ux have said this themselves, so nothing controversial there. In my experience strength comes from contention and dealing with it openly, not from papering over cracks. Trouble is it too often gets personal (or is taken personally - there is always a choice of how you take things and how you react) and that gets in the way of this healthy contention.
Some simmering 'boils' do need lancing in my opinion.
For example, I don't really care that HC gets 40K, but I would like to know why it was always portrayed implicitly as unpaid service - and it was. I just don't get that at all. What was the purpose behind not publicising this as a paid post for so long? I know the argument runs that we couldn't have got anyone better for the price, and this is no slight on HC, but we just don't know do we.
Also to implement any fresh approach we need, if we can find one, a new person for that SD role. HC is immensely valuable, but for both internal credibility and a fresh pair of eyes, not culturally conditioned (as we all get with time), change is needed. Clasey has summed this up well.
New blood is needed on the Trust (again echoed by all on the Trust). This clearly won't happen (the last elections proved it) without 'pump priming'. This can't just be left to elections where familiar names will be recycled, as that is the way of the world.
Of course, if the Trust is sidelined by the new bunch, some of this may not matter anyway as an SD would be pretty useless without an agreed mandate, and the battle plan will be different, but the Trust still needs to regenerate and show a strong strategy for the new world and (maybe severe) turbulence and argument is part of that.
We need the Trust more than ever. I think the vast majority have confidence in people like Phil and Andy to get us there. I do. But that doesn't mean trying to shut down criticism, in whatever form, but to see it in its context and place. Even hysterical criticism can be used as fuel for non-hysterical debate.
I know, sanctimonious and condescending in parts, and disjointed, but I wanted it out of my head early, so I can get on with other stuff. Also easy to chuck stones from the comfort of a chair, when others have to do the hard work.
Oh and just to repeat, imo the real anger and contempt should be aimed at the absolute pieces of shit (that's you Jenkins, Morgan, Dineen, Zwed et al, in case you are still in any doubt) that have put us in this position, not at the people trying to help get us out. |
Excellent post!
The thing is some have seen this coming for a long time and the reaction from the Trust to any questioning or critism has always been the same. I'm sure you know what I mean. Therefore I wonder if it's "cultural" within the trust itself? Now of course the Trust will say no. But it's not for the board members to decide the answer to that...it's the memebers and the fans of our beautiful club.
Also, I along with many fans are getting fed up with the same old same old stock answers to probing questions. It takes to at least two to enjoy fruitful relationships in any context. The Trust for their part have becom too comfortable in that respect, in their (our) relationship with the club board. Taken their eyes off the ball at the most crucial of times! [Post edited 26 Oct 2016 9:04]
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| The Trust selling up on 09:01 - Oct 26 with 930 views | TheResurrection |
| The Trust selling up on 08:43 - Oct 26 by monmouth |
I totally agree that the real anger should be targeted at the old Board. They are beyond contempt.
Because of that though, we need a very strong - and different - Trust now. Phil and Ux have said this themselves, so nothing controversial there. In my experience strength comes from contention and dealing with it openly, not from papering over cracks. Trouble is it too often gets personal (or is taken personally - there is always a choice of how you take things and how you react) and that gets in the way of this healthy contention.
Some simmering 'boils' do need lancing in my opinion.
For example, I don't really care that HC gets 40K, but I would like to know why it was always portrayed implicitly as unpaid service - and it was. I just don't get that at all. What was the purpose behind not publicising this as a paid post for so long? I know the argument runs that we couldn't have got anyone better for the price, and this is no slight on HC, but we just don't know do we.
Also to implement any fresh approach we need, if we can find one, a new person for that SD role. HC is immensely valuable, but for both internal credibility and a fresh pair of eyes, not culturally conditioned (as we all get with time), change is needed. Clasey has summed this up well.
New blood is needed on the Trust (again echoed by all on the Trust). This clearly won't happen (the last elections proved it) without 'pump priming'. This can't just be left to elections where familiar names will be recycled, as that is the way of the world.
Of course, if the Trust is sidelined by the new bunch, some of this may not matter anyway as an SD would be pretty useless without an agreed mandate, and the battle plan will be different, but the Trust still needs to regenerate and show a strong strategy for the new world and (maybe severe) turbulence and argument is part of that.
We need the Trust more than ever. I think the vast majority have confidence in people like Phil and Andy to get us there. I do. But that doesn't mean trying to shut down criticism, in whatever form, but to see it in its context and place. Even hysterical criticism can be used as fuel for non-hysterical debate.
I know, sanctimonious and condescending in parts, and disjointed, but I wanted it out of my head early, so I can get on with other stuff. Also easy to chuck stones from the comfort of a chair, when others have to do the hard work.
Oh and just to repeat, imo the real anger and contempt should be aimed at the absolute pieces of shit (that's you Jenkins, Morgan, Dineen, Zwed et al, in case you are still in any doubt) that have put us in this position, not at the people trying to help get us out. |
How on God's earth can you have faith in Phil?
I'm sorry but he was the Chairman throughout all this and fundamentally the call to keep this news quiet was his.
He's got to go and quick! |  |
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| The Trust selling up on 09:05 - Oct 26 with 913 views | costalotta |
| The Trust selling up on 09:01 - Oct 26 by TheResurrection |
How on God's earth can you have faith in Phil?
I'm sorry but he was the Chairman throughout all this and fundamentally the call to keep this news quiet was his.
He's got to go and quick! |
There is certainly a discussion to be had...
But that applies to the whole Trust board IMO. [Post edited 26 Oct 2016 9:06]
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| The Trust selling up on 09:13 - Oct 26 with 888 views | monmouth |
| The Trust selling up on 09:01 - Oct 26 by TheResurrection |
How on God's earth can you have faith in Phil?
I'm sorry but he was the Chairman throughout all this and fundamentally the call to keep this news quiet was his.
He's got to go and quick! |
It's a fair question that Chris. I don't know why really, as I've never met him. but all I've read and seen of the man, I believe he is a decent man, 100% committed to the cause, if cut would bleed Swansea City, and has a wealth of knowledge and experience that will be extraordinarily valuable in pioting the Trust through this, if he wants to. I just think the Trust would be much weaker without him being there. I don't like talking about others like this if I can help it so I'll stop at that.
As I said though, I would like this payment shit put to bed by the Trust, with a proper explanation of why it really wasn't public knowledge amongst Trust members, even if the reasons are unpalatable. [Post edited 26 Oct 2016 9:14]
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| The Trust selling up on 09:25 - Oct 26 with 840 views | JackUlation |
| The Trust selling up on 09:13 - Oct 26 by monmouth |
It's a fair question that Chris. I don't know why really, as I've never met him. but all I've read and seen of the man, I believe he is a decent man, 100% committed to the cause, if cut would bleed Swansea City, and has a wealth of knowledge and experience that will be extraordinarily valuable in pioting the Trust through this, if he wants to. I just think the Trust would be much weaker without him being there. I don't like talking about others like this if I can help it so I'll stop at that.
As I said though, I would like this payment shit put to bed by the Trust, with a proper explanation of why it really wasn't public knowledge amongst Trust members, even if the reasons are unpalatable. [Post edited 26 Oct 2016 9:14]
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problem is, what more is to come out ?
The Trust has lost Trust, unfortunately. | | | |
| The Trust selling up on 09:25 - Oct 26 with 840 views | waynekerr55 |
| The Trust selling up on 09:13 - Oct 26 by monmouth |
It's a fair question that Chris. I don't know why really, as I've never met him. but all I've read and seen of the man, I believe he is a decent man, 100% committed to the cause, if cut would bleed Swansea City, and has a wealth of knowledge and experience that will be extraordinarily valuable in pioting the Trust through this, if he wants to. I just think the Trust would be much weaker without him being there. I don't like talking about others like this if I can help it so I'll stop at that.
As I said though, I would like this payment shit put to bed by the Trust, with a proper explanation of why it really wasn't public knowledge amongst Trust members, even if the reasons are unpalatable. [Post edited 26 Oct 2016 9:14]
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Bang on the money again Monny.
And, let's not lose sight of the fact that those pieces of sh*t (Pinocchio, Mr Creosote et al.) have sold us down the river. |  |
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| The Trust selling up on 09:30 - Oct 26 with 830 views | UplandsJack |
| The Trust selling up on 07:45 - Oct 26 by NeathJack |
I think you'll find Phil is away on a family holiday.
People have lives outside of this bubble. |
That's a fair and totally valid point. However it does seem very strange that Phil was fully engaged on this very thread till 16.45 on the 23rd, then a short time later Lisa asked the question about Huw Cooze payments and then total silence..... | | | |
| The Trust selling up on 09:35 - Oct 26 with 831 views | JackUlation |
| The Trust selling up on 09:30 - Oct 26 by UplandsJack |
That's a fair and totally valid point. However it does seem very strange that Phil was fully engaged on this very thread till 16.45 on the 23rd, then a short time later Lisa asked the question about Huw Cooze payments and then total silence..... |
looking at properties in Marbella ? | | | |
| The Trust selling up on 09:41 - Oct 26 with 816 views | CopaMundial |
Also I don't buy Lisa's claim that this was just a random question based on experience,something going on here | | | |
| The Trust selling up on 09:45 - Oct 26 with 807 views | TheResurrection |
| The Trust selling up on 09:13 - Oct 26 by monmouth |
It's a fair question that Chris. I don't know why really, as I've never met him. but all I've read and seen of the man, I believe he is a decent man, 100% committed to the cause, if cut would bleed Swansea City, and has a wealth of knowledge and experience that will be extraordinarily valuable in pioting the Trust through this, if he wants to. I just think the Trust would be much weaker without him being there. I don't like talking about others like this if I can help it so I'll stop at that.
As I said though, I would like this payment shit put to bed by the Trust, with a proper explanation of why it really wasn't public knowledge amongst Trust members, even if the reasons are unpalatable. [Post edited 26 Oct 2016 9:14]
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Experience of openly deceiving the fans for so long?
You wouldn't think like this if he wasn't the site owner of the forum you spend every day on.
This is more serious than that. The Trust needs to be ripped open and fresh eyes and ideas need to be allowed in.
Phil will never be able to recover from this as it will always stay with him. | |
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| The Trust selling up on 09:47 - Oct 26 with 794 views | TheResurrection |
| The Trust selling up on 09:41 - Oct 26 by CopaMundial |
Also I don't buy Lisa's claim that this was just a random question based on experience,something going on here |
No chance, you're right.
No one can be trusted now. | |
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| The Trust selling up on 09:50 - Oct 26 with 787 views | TheResurrection |
Also I'll guarantee you they are all feverishly reading this message board and others. Family holidays my ass, lack of WiFi haha.
They are keeping out of the way, cowardly, because they know they have let everyone down. | |
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