| Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? 23:08 - Feb 19 with 42998 views | GloryHunter |
I was 22 in 1975, and I voted "No". This was based on my political heroes Michael Foot and Tony Benn warning against the dangers of entering the EU. After that, I softened my opposition somewhat. I like the fact that I can now cross most European borders without being searched and showing my passport, and I have since acquired a German wife, who is free to live and work in the UK (although she is not allowed to vote here, despite having paid UK taxes for 25 years). But, to be honest, I am thinking of voting "Out". What do other posters on here think? |  | | |  |
| Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 12:29 - Feb 20 with 2308 views | connell10 |
| Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 10:00 - Feb 20 by essextaxiboy |
He has had the courage of his convictions , putting aside his personal friendship with DC aside to do what he thinks is right . You are not cynical but you do have a grudge. Even if he made errors in Education does that make him wrong now ?
Has there been an Education Minister that the teachers havent scrapped with ?
Contrary to your belief I think he is a massive boost to the out campaign. |
The blokes a Kunt! |  |
| AND WHEN I DREAM , I DREAM ABOUT YOU AND WHEN I SCREAM I SCREAM ABOUT YOU!!!!! | | Poll: | best number 10 ever? |
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| Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 12:37 - Feb 20 with 2299 views | PunteR |
| Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 12:10 - Feb 20 by Doughnut |
Dear oh dear...the whole thing is so very choreographed .
Step 1 :Give the rabble a vote to show how 'democratic' we all are
Step 2 : Go to Europe and pretend we're negotiating hard for Britain...what a hero DC is!!
Step 3: Come out and announce that 'in spite of some hard negotiating we've got a fantastic deal'..what a suprise!!!
Step 4: Announce a referendum date (which strangely enough, is already known by the media tosserati)
Step 4: Get said media tosserati/poling agencies...etc to show what a near run thing it's gonna be...'could go either way'
Step 5 : Have referendum and get the people to rubber stamp the whole thing with the seal of 'democracy'
Step 6: Announce the stay in campaign has won, after all and carry on as normal!
Cameron has had armies of civil servants working on this for months....just so he can say its all above board and YOU voted for it.
It doesnt matter what you vote for..the outcomes been agreed already! |
This^..... Probably. |  |
| Occasional providers of half decent House music. |
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| Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 12:44 - Feb 20 with 2279 views | HollowayRanger |
Would not surprise me if the vote goes like this
in -----------------out
England 46-54
wales 58-42
Scotland 66-34
n.ireland 60-40
leaving us in England stuck in this crap
crazy thing is if we vote OUT scots will demand a new vote on the union
yet if the vote is to stay with more English wanting out WE WONT get an independence vote |  |
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| Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 12:58 - Feb 20 with 2252 views | zicoshoops |
Maybe the ballot question should be presented to the public in two parts.
1.
'Do you want to live in a Country in which the elected Government does not have the final say in governing the country?'
2.
'Do you want to live in a Country in which only the elected Government is answerable to it's Electorate? [Post edited 20 Feb 2016 13:04]
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| Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 13:01 - Feb 20 with 2242 views | CanadaRanger |
I listened to Cameron. He addressed a number of the EU irritations which he says will now be fixed. At least he has tried.
I was a young lad when Edward Heath took us into Europe. I've been here in Canada almost 30 years. I try to come back every year to see family and friends and QPR and Chesham United. As such I see snapshots of my country of birth, rather than being immersed in it the whole time.
I was able to come to Canada because I had a work skill that Canada needed. While I support family reunification and help to political (not economic) refugees, surely the majority of immigration to a country should be to meet its needs. Canada has this. It appears the UK lost it somewhere along the way.
Before being allowed into Canada, I was screened to make sure I had no criminal past. That's one way Canada keeps control of what type of people it lets in. It (generally) does not have the problem that the USA does of criminals running drugs across an open border. Canada will admit there have been problems with contraband cigarettes and guns being run through First Nations reserves that straddle the US/Canada border in Ontario, but nothing like USA/Mexico. It appears that the UK has lost its ability to keep criminals from neighbouring countries off of its soil.
Before I became a citizen of Canada, I was a Landed Immigrant. That meant I could not vote, hold certain positions in political parties, and could be evicted from Canada if I seriously broke the law. It appears the UK has lost this control somewhere along the way.
While the USA has a huge trade relationship with Canada, Canada keeps it sovereignty. We have our own currency, our own financial policy, our own military, etc, etc. We make our own laws. It appears the UK has lost a huge amount of sovereignty over the years I have been away.
Would Cameron's deal fix these things for the UK? Well, from my perspective, they try to go in the right direction, but I am not convinced they will be enough. If Britain comes out, it would shake the EU. I think, one way or another, it needs to be shaken.
If I were to return to England now, it is no longer the sovereign country I left. I think it needs that back.
But the fundamental question perhaps is equality. A chair is not comfortable if one of the legs is a special length, compared to all the others. Over here, when Quebec wanted to separate, we had Preston Manning suggesting a new deal, not just for Quebec but equally for all our provinces. It would have given all of the provinces powers back that the federal government had encroached on. A special deal for Quebec would lead only in inequality and resentment. Britain's problems are problems that other EU countries also face. They are not unique. Had Cameron's deal given powers back to all EU countries, or at least given them the option to reclaim those powers should they desire, then it would be stable. I can't see a "special deal" for one country (regardless of which one) being the best outcome.
Therefore, maybe the UK should come out... get back its sovereignty... watch the rest of Europe have to come to grips with the same problems and reach a new, saner equilibrium over the next 20 or so years. If the UK comes out, I think it will have to become a stronger country again and it will avoid a lot of the grief in Europe that is still to happen. [Post edited 20 Feb 2016 13:06]
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| Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 13:06 - Feb 20 with 2226 views | zicoshoops |
| Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 13:01 - Feb 20 by CanadaRanger |
I listened to Cameron. He addressed a number of the EU irritations which he says will now be fixed. At least he has tried.
I was a young lad when Edward Heath took us into Europe. I've been here in Canada almost 30 years. I try to come back every year to see family and friends and QPR and Chesham United. As such I see snapshots of my country of birth, rather than being immersed in it the whole time.
I was able to come to Canada because I had a work skill that Canada needed. While I support family reunification and help to political (not economic) refugees, surely the majority of immigration to a country should be to meet its needs. Canada has this. It appears the UK lost it somewhere along the way.
Before being allowed into Canada, I was screened to make sure I had no criminal past. That's one way Canada keeps control of what type of people it lets in. It (generally) does not have the problem that the USA does of criminals running drugs across an open border. Canada will admit there have been problems with contraband cigarettes and guns being run through First Nations reserves that straddle the US/Canada border in Ontario, but nothing like USA/Mexico. It appears that the UK has lost its ability to keep criminals from neighbouring countries off of its soil.
Before I became a citizen of Canada, I was a Landed Immigrant. That meant I could not vote, hold certain positions in political parties, and could be evicted from Canada if I seriously broke the law. It appears the UK has lost this control somewhere along the way.
While the USA has a huge trade relationship with Canada, Canada keeps it sovereignty. We have our own currency, our own financial policy, our own military, etc, etc. We make our own laws. It appears the UK has lost a huge amount of sovereignty over the years I have been away.
Would Cameron's deal fix these things for the UK? Well, from my perspective, they try to go in the right direction, but I am not convinced they will be enough. If Britain comes out, it would shake the EU. I think, one way or another, it needs to be shaken.
If I were to return to England now, it is no longer the sovereign country I left. I think it needs that back.
But the fundamental question perhaps is equality. A chair is not comfortable if one of the legs is a special length, compared to all the others. Over here, when Quebec wanted to separate, we had Preston Manning suggesting a new deal, not just for Quebec but equally for all our provinces. It would have given all of the provinces powers back that the federal government had encroached on. A special deal for Quebec would lead only in inequality and resentment. Britain's problems are problems that other EU countries also face. They are not unique. Had Cameron's deal given powers back to all EU countries, or at least given them the option to reclaim those powers should they desire, then it would be stable. I can't see a "special deal" for one country (regardless of which one) being the best outcome.
Therefore, maybe the UK should come out... get back its sovereignty... watch the rest of Europe have to come to grips with the same problems and reach a new, saner equilibrium over the next 20 or so years. If the UK comes out, I think it will have to become a stronger country again and it will avoid a lot of the grief in Europe that is still to happen. [Post edited 20 Feb 2016 13:06]
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If you've been there for 30 years, all I can say is that I'm envious.
Amazing Country.
You struck gold. | | | |
| Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 13:07 - Feb 20 with 2223 views | wortonranger |
| Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 08:47 - Feb 20 by essextaxiboy |
Why is this premature? The agreement was last night ,the campaign starts today . If the issues are as complex as you say the more debate the better surely? What are these artificial boundaries ? Assuming you are in the UK get in your car , start driving and you will reach a very natural boundary. |
The campaign hasn't really started yet has it? And if you want to look at how irrational and problematic boundaries are take a look at the Irish situation. Geopolitics is far more complex than you make it out to be. |  | | |
| Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 13:13 - Feb 20 with 2201 views | CanadaRanger |
| Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 13:06 - Feb 20 by zicoshoops |
If you've been there for 30 years, all I can say is that I'm envious.
Amazing Country.
You struck gold. |
An amazing country and very diverse. Also, huge, crossing multiple time zones. We still do stupid things like trying to cram too many people into cities. There are vast amounts of land and lower stress lifestyles available outside of the concrete jungle. We have about half the population of the UK, and a lot more room! [Post edited 20 Feb 2016 13:14]
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| Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 13:21 - Feb 20 with 2181 views | zicoshoops |
| Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 13:13 - Feb 20 by CanadaRanger |
An amazing country and very diverse. Also, huge, crossing multiple time zones. We still do stupid things like trying to cram too many people into cities. There are vast amounts of land and lower stress lifestyles available outside of the concrete jungle. We have about half the population of the UK, and a lot more room! [Post edited 20 Feb 2016 13:14]
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Second largest Country in the world by land mass.
Population 35+ million, 90% live within 100 miles of the USA boarder.
Friendly laid back people.
You're in paradise.
Loved it there.
In the lottery of life...................you won. | | | |
| Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 13:23 - Feb 20 with 2173 views | QPRDave |
OUT OUT OUT.....JFH OUT!!!
oops sorry  wrong thread and a bit early  |  | | |
| Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 14:14 - Feb 20 with 2105 views | oddball |
im voting in out in out shake it all about. | | | |
| Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 14:25 - Feb 20 with 2094 views | essextaxiboy |
| Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 13:07 - Feb 20 by wortonranger |
The campaign hasn't really started yet has it? And if you want to look at how irrational and problematic boundaries are take a look at the Irish situation. Geopolitics is far more complex than you make it out to be. |
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35620567
[Post edited 20 Feb 2016 14:33]
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| Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 15:14 - Feb 20 with 2044 views | QPR_John |
23rd June for referendum. If there is an out vote I wonder how soon after that the next "referendum" will be | | | |
| Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 15:29 - Feb 20 with 2020 views | CanadaRanger |
| Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 15:14 - Feb 20 by QPR_John |
23rd June for referendum. If there is an out vote I wonder how soon after that the next "referendum" will be |
Quebec separatists promised a state of "never-end-um referendum", but it didn't happen... | | | |
| Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 15:31 - Feb 20 with 2015 views | JackFrost |
I'm OUT
The EU is evolving. The 19 country Euro block led by Germany will become increasingly influential, and if the UK stays in, it will become marginalised. If the Euro Block want to run down London in favour of Frankfurt, they'll do so, and as an EU member we'd have to go along with it.
We've always been an outward-looking trading nation. We need to get back to our roots. |  | | |
| Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 15:50 - Feb 20 with 1989 views | isawqpratwcity |
| Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 15:31 - Feb 20 by JackFrost |
I'm OUT
The EU is evolving. The 19 country Euro block led by Germany will become increasingly influential, and if the UK stays in, it will become marginalised. If the Euro Block want to run down London in favour of Frankfurt, they'll do so, and as an EU member we'd have to go along with it.
We've always been an outward-looking trading nation. We need to get back to our roots. |
Until the end of WWII Britain was the militarist head of an empire for the benefit of the aristocracy and rich capitalists. Joining the EU was an admission of the passing of that era.
Your roots have gone. [Post edited 20 Feb 2016 15:57]
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| Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 15:58 - Feb 20 with 1977 views | JackFrost |
| Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 15:50 - Feb 20 by isawqpratwcity |
Until the end of WWII Britain was the militarist head of an empire for the benefit of the aristocracy and rich capitalists. Joining the EU was an admission of the passing of that era.
Your roots have gone. [Post edited 20 Feb 2016 15:57]
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Britain was also a maritime trading nation that navigated the world. There was not a nation with which it was restricted in doing business - unlike now.
We did not join the EU. We joined the Common Market. What we're in now is a perversion of it. | | | |
| Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 16:09 - Feb 20 with 1965 views | isawqpratwcity |
| Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 15:58 - Feb 20 by JackFrost |
Britain was also a maritime trading nation that navigated the world. There was not a nation with which it was restricted in doing business - unlike now.
We did not join the EU. We joined the Common Market. What we're in now is a perversion of it. |
Fine. But Britain is no longer a maritime nation, nor does it have the resources of an empire. Britain joined the joined the Common Market (as you correctly point out) because it recognised it no longer could stand alone. | |
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| Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 16:19 - Feb 20 with 1944 views | essextaxiboy |
| Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 10:38 - Feb 20 by Dorse |
A grudge? Me? Shall we say, pistols at dawn, sir?
I take your point and, in general, I have nothing but respect for what I would deem 'conscience politicians' (think, say, Ann Widdecombe).
Most issues within education are fairly minor and most Education Ministers are decent sorts. He, on the other hand, went in and attempted to undermine everything that successive generations of students had achieved by claiming that it was in some way a dumbing down / race to the bottom caused by exam board competition. This calls into question student attainment and he laid that at the door of the profession. In order to change this he introduces more testing in Primaries, even to the point that my local Primary is asking the pre-School to teach school-level EYFS to 3 and 4 year olds prior to School. Not for the benefit of the student, but to potentially raise the School's measurement in government statistics.
SATS and levels of attainment in Primaries are all-encompassing. They coach and coach and coach again to ensure students get the standard they're after on one single day of their KS1 / 2 lives. My son's class, going from KS1 to 2 spent, I kid you not, 3 weeks doing nothing but numeracy and literacy prior to assessment. No PE. No Art. No Humanities. No PSHE. No Music. Not even any Science. Once they got what they were after, everything else came back. And for what? As soon as they get to Secondary, they do CAT tests which often show up the holes in this game. The only reason the Primaries do it, is to tick government boxes not to ensure the rounded education of the child.
Students in mainstream Secondaries were assessed to National Levels (1-8) in KS3. These, they scrapped with no replacement. Let me repeat that. Our children will be assessed locally to no agreed standard other than that of the Head or Governors. What. The. Fcuk.
He tried to bully the Ebacc through the system which effectively devalued every subject that wasn't English, Maths, Science or a Language. Even the Humanities, that all students sit (RE, Geog, Hist) weren't given equal status! It was kicked into the long grass because the Schools pointed out that they already measured student progress in those terms anyway!!! Why? Because the government had already imposed it as the measurement good attainment (5 GCSEs, C and above, including Maths and English. The other measurement by RAISE Online is in 5 GCSEs - English (Lang, Lit), Science (Double) and Maths).
Add to this the sheer piss-up in a brewery situation of telling all exam boards to 'make their exams tougher', changing the attainment banding to 1-9 and then changing their minds about what it is, exactly, they want to measure hasn't helped any student attain anything. The level of student attainment hasn't gone up. It is simply measured differently. If the measurement is skewed and attainment levels drop, it will not be his problem.
People are paying (in London) c.£69 p/h to have their kids tutored because class sizes have got bigger and bigger and the profession is haemorrhaging experienced and 'Outstanding' teachers. Just the marking is getting ridiculous.
I am leaving because of the way that I nearly, literally, killed myself in that job. It has had a massive effect on my mental health and on my family. I only teach part-time in two of my local Schools. The first of them, is one at which I was an HoD and Asst Year Head, prior to my move to my last place. They called me and asked if I wanted to come back on my terms. Of course I said yes. The other is a special school with kids who have complex learning difficulties and, in some cases, severe physical impairment.
I am leaving the game to people who still have the energy to fight people like Gove. I wish them all the very best. Stay focused on the kids.
Sorry Essex - didn't mean to unload on you there. Rant over. See why I don't get involved now? |
I wouldnt have the front to argue any of your points . I just think he is right on this issue. | | | |
| Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 16:25 - Feb 20 with 1939 views | JackFrost |
| Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 16:09 - Feb 20 by isawqpratwcity |
Fine. But Britain is no longer a maritime nation, nor does it have the resources of an empire. Britain joined the joined the Common Market (as you correctly point out) because it recognised it no longer could stand alone. |
Britain joined the Common Market because the trading area was beneficial and there was minimal political interference. Maastricht and beyond changed that.
Resources? Britain is the fifth largest economy in the world. If the EU chains were taken off, it would trade globally, by sea and by air. Commercially, the EU is becoming less and less important to the UK. Whereas the UK is a vital customer to certain EU countries like Germany. | | | |
| Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 16:40 - Feb 20 with 1905 views | essextaxiboy |
| Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 16:09 - Feb 20 by isawqpratwcity |
Fine. But Britain is no longer a maritime nation, nor does it have the resources of an empire. Britain joined the joined the Common Market (as you correctly point out) because it recognised it no longer could stand alone. |
We wont stand alone , we are a part of the Commonwealth The G7 , Nato , United Nations and the , USA "special relationship" . We have the 5th largest economy in the World . Thats all without any trade agreements we sign .
We will still be part of Europe , just not in the EU .
Apart from that we import plenty from the EU Its in their interest to trade with us | | | |
| Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 16:46 - Feb 20 with 1891 views | FredManRave |
"OUT"
Ooops.....sorry, I thought this was the Bolton Match thread... |  |
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| Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 16:48 - Feb 20 with 1887 views | isawqpratwcity |
| Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 16:25 - Feb 20 by JackFrost |
Britain joined the Common Market because the trading area was beneficial and there was minimal political interference. Maastricht and beyond changed that.
Resources? Britain is the fifth largest economy in the world. If the EU chains were taken off, it would trade globally, by sea and by air. Commercially, the EU is becoming less and less important to the UK. Whereas the UK is a vital customer to certain EU countries like Germany. |
Britain's economy is overwhelmingly skewed towards services. I don't see that sector increasing significantly because of leaving the EU while I do predict manufacturing decreasing. | |
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| Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 16:50 - Feb 20 with 1869 views | THEBUSH |
I want to stay in Europe. so it's a big 'YES' from moi  |  | | |
| Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 16:52 - Feb 20 with 1864 views | essextaxiboy |
| Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 16:48 - Feb 20 by isawqpratwcity |
Britain's economy is overwhelmingly skewed towards services. I don't see that sector increasing significantly because of leaving the EU while I do predict manufacturing decreasing. |
We will have money to invest in manufacturing . We have some great brains . If we are innovative , make good quality products at a good price we will sell them all over the world . | | | |
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