| M&S on 10:35 - Nov 24 with 3041 views | isitme |
| M&S on 21:13 - Nov 23 by BURYFC_1885 |
Not to worry, you can visit Bury's new M&S instead!
Joking aside, where have Rochdale council gone wrong regarding the development of Rochdale as a place to shop? Bury is a smaller town than Rochdale yet enjoys a successful and expanding town centre. Bolton town centre has been declining for years and Rochdale has never been known for shopping. Maybe these factors have helped towns like Bury?
Bury I read is one of the fastest growing towns in the UK, not that this is particularly good... it depends who moves in of course, and causes further dilution of 'born and bred' Bury folk. Rochdale town centre I notice has undergone some redevelopment regarding the bridge over the River Roch and a new bus station. For the towns sake I hope businesses stay on board with this regeneration project as a town of Rochdale's size and location has real potential if done right.
Perhaps it's a case of reinventing the town? Now I don't admit to being a regular visitor of Rochdale but the town has always seemed to carry a stigma of being run down (said by some Rochdale friends). Yet there are some lovely areas around the town such as Littleborough, it's also not as much in the Manchester firing line as Bury (2 miles further north albeit there is now a metrolink) which could help create a more captive audience of shoppers... but where has it gone wrong for Dale if Bury seems to be booming... not a dig just curious. |
I think Bury had a forward looking Tory council who set the wheels in motion with the development of the Rock etc.
Unfortunately we are lumbered with the same time served councillors who have limited interest in improving our town.
How about having one councillor per ward making it a full time job using the current allowances to pay them. That way if they are not very good they get voted out and lose their job. It would also open up what people can stand for the council. If you have a full time job it would be difficult to do the role justice. |  | |  |
| M&S on 11:02 - Nov 24 with 2999 views | tony_roch975 |
| M&S on 10:35 - Nov 24 by isitme |
I think Bury had a forward looking Tory council who set the wheels in motion with the development of the Rock etc.
Unfortunately we are lumbered with the same time served councillors who have limited interest in improving our town.
How about having one councillor per ward making it a full time job using the current allowances to pay them. That way if they are not very good they get voted out and lose their job. It would also open up what people can stand for the council. If you have a full time job it would be difficult to do the role justice. |
The Rochdale Labour Party local elections manifesto in 1986 proposed the opening up of the river throughout the length of the Esplanade, demolishing the 'Black Box' and developing new town centre retail, leisure and accommodation - long before the waterside developments in Manchester, Leeds etc. Sadly the Party leadership at the time did not support the proposals. |  |
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| M&S on 11:08 - Nov 24 with 2988 views | BillyRudd |
| M&S on 22:12 - Nov 23 by mingthemerciless |
Visiting the M&S food store is one of the few reasons I have for going into the town centre. I just walk through the clothing section, I'm in my 60's now but I wouldn't be seen dead in any of their men's clothes.
I've already got a mobile phone and several pairs of trainers plus I don't want a tattoo. If M&S go that'll be it. [Post edited 23 Nov 2017 22:18]
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Could have added, don,t need a loan, debt advice, or both.
Perhaps the clue to what is really needed is the fact that people actually travel on coaches to visit Bury market. Its market forces, not rocket science. A big outdoor market needs minimal outlay compared to a piffling shopping complex competing with the Trafford Centre.
A market opening on alternate days to Bury plus Saturdays would drag footfall and spend into the town, then retailers further up the chain follow that footfall. Its all very well having transport infrastructure but unless there is something people want in Rochdale then the travel will only be outward. | | | |
| M&S on 11:28 - Nov 24 with 2959 views | rochdaleriddler |
| M&S on 10:35 - Nov 24 by isitme |
I think Bury had a forward looking Tory council who set the wheels in motion with the development of the Rock etc.
Unfortunately we are lumbered with the same time served councillors who have limited interest in improving our town.
How about having one councillor per ward making it a full time job using the current allowances to pay them. That way if they are not very good they get voted out and lose their job. It would also open up what people can stand for the council. If you have a full time job it would be difficult to do the role justice. |
Forward thinking tory! Oxymoron |  |
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| M&S on 11:41 - Nov 24 with 2955 views | mingthemerciless |
| M&S on 10:35 - Nov 24 by isitme |
I think Bury had a forward looking Tory council who set the wheels in motion with the development of the Rock etc.
Unfortunately we are lumbered with the same time served councillors who have limited interest in improving our town.
How about having one councillor per ward making it a full time job using the current allowances to pay them. That way if they are not very good they get voted out and lose their job. It would also open up what people can stand for the council. If you have a full time job it would be difficult to do the role justice. |
Mm, '" forward thinking " and " Tory ". It's not often you see those in the same sentence. Normally they're trying to take us back to about 1935. | | | |
| M&S on 12:38 - Nov 24 with 2908 views | D_Alien |
The above two comments are perfect
... examples of ignoring the actual evidence of the actions taken by the respective Bury and Rochdale councils, in securing a more prosperous future for their towns
Whatever your political persuasion, if you can't see the evidence in front of your noses, you're f*cked. A bit like the Tories taking forever to make the required changes to Universal Credit, most people just want politicians to do their job properly |  |
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| M&S on 12:45 - Nov 24 with 2898 views | finberty |
| M&S on 11:41 - Nov 24 by mingthemerciless |
Mm, '" forward thinking " and " Tory ". It's not often you see those in the same sentence. Normally they're trying to take us back to about 1935. |
Maybe so. But which of the two towns boastsenduring retail success, and which one is now scratching its head in bewilderment?
It'll be interesting to see how tightly Farnell's brigade have tied M&S into honouring the contract.
My bet is, not very. |  | | |
| M&S on 13:21 - Nov 24 with 2849 views | krafty80 |
Interesting discussion. Thought I'd add an observation as a Dale-born Dale fan who grew up in Bury when my family moved there in the early 80s. I've always thought that Bury in economic and social terms has an advantage by being smaller than both Rochdale and Bolton.
It seems to me that being bigger boroughs geographically, both Bolton and Rochdale have to face a greater share of social and economic problems, and maybe have a more spread out set of areas that are struggling (not wishing to denigrate anywhere in Rochdale mind). As a result it's maybe not surprising that social problems are more evident on a visit to Rochdale town centre than they are when in Bury, leaving aside the issues relating to Rochdale's planning blunders in the 70s etc.
Also Bury getting its Metrolink in 1991 rather than 2015 has, I think, been factor in encouraging day trippers to go to the market etc. Infrastructure is always seen as a vanity project when it's proposed but it does have a tendency to pay dividends over the long run.
That said, last time i was in Bury (I live down south now for my sins) I was actually quite concerned. The area between the interchange and the market is really struggling, and I am far from convinced by the new shopping complex, which just seems plastic and windswept to me. It's a very long walk from the original town centre (Silver Street etc), and has obviously leached business from it. As a small town, I do think Bury has overstretched with the Rock and as more shopping activity moves online, that could be a problem. As other posters have said, concentrating on redeveloping a smaller footprint in Rochdale around the river , town hall and tram stop might be the way to go.
I can understand people's pessimism about Rochdale's prospects, but I still believe it has potential, but maybe modest steps are what is needed, along with community support (not just carping about local politicians, tempting as that is!). |  | | |
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| M&S on 14:04 - Nov 24 with 2804 views | Tommy |
| M&S on 13:21 - Nov 24 by krafty80 |
Interesting discussion. Thought I'd add an observation as a Dale-born Dale fan who grew up in Bury when my family moved there in the early 80s. I've always thought that Bury in economic and social terms has an advantage by being smaller than both Rochdale and Bolton.
It seems to me that being bigger boroughs geographically, both Bolton and Rochdale have to face a greater share of social and economic problems, and maybe have a more spread out set of areas that are struggling (not wishing to denigrate anywhere in Rochdale mind). As a result it's maybe not surprising that social problems are more evident on a visit to Rochdale town centre than they are when in Bury, leaving aside the issues relating to Rochdale's planning blunders in the 70s etc.
Also Bury getting its Metrolink in 1991 rather than 2015 has, I think, been factor in encouraging day trippers to go to the market etc. Infrastructure is always seen as a vanity project when it's proposed but it does have a tendency to pay dividends over the long run.
That said, last time i was in Bury (I live down south now for my sins) I was actually quite concerned. The area between the interchange and the market is really struggling, and I am far from convinced by the new shopping complex, which just seems plastic and windswept to me. It's a very long walk from the original town centre (Silver Street etc), and has obviously leached business from it. As a small town, I do think Bury has overstretched with the Rock and as more shopping activity moves online, that could be a problem. As other posters have said, concentrating on redeveloping a smaller footprint in Rochdale around the river , town hall and tram stop might be the way to go.
I can understand people's pessimism about Rochdale's prospects, but I still believe it has potential, but maybe modest steps are what is needed, along with community support (not just carping about local politicians, tempting as that is!). |
The Rock is very well attended. It's only behind Manchester City centre and the Trafford Centre in footfall. Of course there is areas that aren't as good such as the area you mentioned but considering how easy it is to get to Manchester and the Trafford Centre via public transport and internet shopping I think Bury does pretty well. | | | |
| M&S on 17:25 - Nov 24 with 2683 views | BURYFC_1885 |
| M&S on 14:04 - Nov 24 by Tommy |
The Rock is very well attended. It's only behind Manchester City centre and the Trafford Centre in footfall. Of course there is areas that aren't as good such as the area you mentioned but considering how easy it is to get to Manchester and the Trafford Centre via public transport and internet shopping I think Bury does pretty well. |
Just to add, there is a new complex opening very soon next to the Rock with 3 new restaurants. Built on the site of the old Sol Viva night club. Bury does seem to be thriving at the moment both in housing developments and shopping. However it remains to see if it will last. The Rock has already taken some shops such as M&S and moved them to The Rock. TJ Hughes replaced it but this is due to close down.
Rochdale and Bolton will catch up eventually, especially Bolton which is much larger than Bury and has its own University and outdoor market. Money makes money though, and whilst Bury town centre (and smaller shops in Ramsbottom) enjoy sustained trade it gives the council more money and encourages further investment. A good cycle to be in when you're booming but a vicious one when the town isn't. | | | |
| M&S on 17:37 - Nov 24 with 2674 views | ColDale |
| M&S on 17:25 - Nov 24 by BURYFC_1885 |
Just to add, there is a new complex opening very soon next to the Rock with 3 new restaurants. Built on the site of the old Sol Viva night club. Bury does seem to be thriving at the moment both in housing developments and shopping. However it remains to see if it will last. The Rock has already taken some shops such as M&S and moved them to The Rock. TJ Hughes replaced it but this is due to close down.
Rochdale and Bolton will catch up eventually, especially Bolton which is much larger than Bury and has its own University and outdoor market. Money makes money though, and whilst Bury town centre (and smaller shops in Ramsbottom) enjoy sustained trade it gives the council more money and encourages further investment. A good cycle to be in when you're booming but a vicious one when the town isn't. |
I disagree about us catching up. Don't think developments like the Rock can survive purely on the footfall from Bury, and as such requires visitors from neighbouring towns, Therefore I doubt we'd have similar investment in the centre because they won't attract the visitors from neighbouring towns as they've already been catered for. |  | | |
| M&S on 19:13 - Nov 24 with 2602 views | rochdale_ranger |
| M&S on 07:44 - Nov 24 by EllDale |
I think that a lot of the success of Bury as a retail town hinges on the market.
And Rochdale is never going to replicate that.
As for "undesirables" floating round Rochdale town centre all I can say that me and my wife like to sit outside the Regal Moon on a sunny Saturday afternoon.
Some of the things that you see are enough to deter most people from visiting the town again although we just laugh.
People staggering about with obvious stains where they've peed themselves, shocking language from drunken middle women tanked up on lager and one classic last summer where this grossly obese women took off her top and paraded around in her bra which she must have thought doubled up as a bikini.
And I wouldn't come to Rochdale on train/bus/tram if I thought that Britain First or whatever their latest name is were marching up and down. This happened twice last year and more or less put the town centre in lockdown. |
Unfortunately for Rochdale laughing at the poor, the homeless and the handicapped doesn't have the same pull factor as a Shopping centre and few decent restaurants and Museums. [Post edited 24 Nov 2017 19:19]
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| M&S on 20:56 - Nov 24 with 2522 views | mingthemerciless |
| M&S on 12:38 - Nov 24 by D_Alien |
The above two comments are perfect
... examples of ignoring the actual evidence of the actions taken by the respective Bury and Rochdale councils, in securing a more prosperous future for their towns
Whatever your political persuasion, if you can't see the evidence in front of your noses, you're f*cked. A bit like the Tories taking forever to make the required changes to Universal Credit, most people just want politicians to do their job properly |
You might not like it but every progressive policy from abolishing kids going up chimneys to the minimum wage has been fought tooth and nail by the Tories. It's a long list between those two items but the Tories have been against all of them. If the cap fits they have to wear it. | | | |
| M&S on 21:50 - Nov 24 with 2488 views | isitme |
| M&S on 20:56 - Nov 24 by mingthemerciless |
You might not like it but every progressive policy from abolishing kids going up chimneys to the minimum wage has been fought tooth and nail by the Tories. It's a long list between those two items but the Tories have been against all of them. If the cap fits they have to wear it. |
The repeal of the Corn Laws by Robert Peel in 1846 would suggest otherwise. | | | |
| M&S on 22:00 - Nov 24 with 2476 views | mingthemerciless |
| M&S on 21:50 - Nov 24 by isitme |
The repeal of the Corn Laws by Robert Peel in 1846 would suggest otherwise. |
I think your reply has proved my point better than anything I could have written. | | | |
| M&S on 23:42 - Nov 24 with 2421 views | D_Alien |
| M&S on 20:56 - Nov 24 by mingthemerciless |
You might not like it but every progressive policy from abolishing kids going up chimneys to the minimum wage has been fought tooth and nail by the Tories. It's a long list between those two items but the Tories have been against all of them. If the cap fits they have to wear it. |
It's nowt to do with what I may or may not like
My post was about those with specific political allegiances being blind to evidence in front of their own eyes regarding what works and what doesn't, which is what most people are interested in, not dogma | |
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| M&S on 22:48 - Nov 25 with 2251 views | blackvincent |
| M&S on 23:36 - Nov 23 by Sandyman |
What worked in Rochdale for hundreds of years , and an integral part of our heritage, we lost in the 70's. It works now in bury and many other towns.
Get a proper indoor and outdoor market back instead of retail outlets you can find anywhere. |
Completely agree. Since then Rochdale has been playing catch up. The damage was done in the 70s when Rochdale centre was destroyed, and no council since has had the wisdom and guts to see it or attempt to put it right. Wouldn't it be nice to go for a pint in Luffies or the Clock Face, and to wander around the market(both markets!) spoiled for choice for what to buy (great cheese choices!). Things have changed but the council is busy fighting yesterdays wars with what they see as today's solutions. They sounded just as plausible in the 70s, we said it wouldn't work then, they didn't listen. It won't work now but they won't listen, because its all about their own political advancement. If I were M&S I'd be doing exactly the same, who in their right mind would trust a Rochdale council. I would love to think that Rochdale had the potential but we need to be realistic and honest. Pie in the sky using ratepayers money while social services starve isn't the way. | | | |
| M&S on 08:44 - Nov 26 with 2168 views | mingthemerciless |
| M&S on 22:48 - Nov 25 by blackvincent |
Completely agree. Since then Rochdale has been playing catch up. The damage was done in the 70s when Rochdale centre was destroyed, and no council since has had the wisdom and guts to see it or attempt to put it right. Wouldn't it be nice to go for a pint in Luffies or the Clock Face, and to wander around the market(both markets!) spoiled for choice for what to buy (great cheese choices!). Things have changed but the council is busy fighting yesterdays wars with what they see as today's solutions. They sounded just as plausible in the 70s, we said it wouldn't work then, they didn't listen. It won't work now but they won't listen, because its all about their own political advancement. If I were M&S I'd be doing exactly the same, who in their right mind would trust a Rochdale council. I would love to think that Rochdale had the potential but we need to be realistic and honest. Pie in the sky using ratepayers money while social services starve isn't the way. |
When you think back the planners had a lot to answer for in those days. I remember reading somewhere that a plan to knock down Manchester Town Hall in the 60's or 70's and replace it with a multi storey car park only failed to be passed by one vote ! | | | |
| M&S on 08:45 - Nov 26 with 2167 views | DiddyDave |
Death by a thousand cuts then? Just saying. | | | |
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