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Reply | Swindon 3 Dale 0
at 15:42 19 Oct 2016
Edit. Always best to check that family members aren't logged into an iPad before posting! [Post edited 19 Oct 2016 15:44]
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Reply | Ched Evans no longer a rapist.
at 19:10 15 Oct 2016
Sticking with 1. You've provided evidence that the crown prosecution on behalf of the queen made an accusation of rape.
If you'd accused the queen of crying rape for money you could build an defence on that evidence.
I am still unaware of your evidence the girl in question claimed to have been raped. |
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Reply | Ched Evans no longer a rapist.
at 18:27 15 Oct 2016
The only evidence she'd need to produce is a published statement that she had made a false rape claim for money.
Presuming you mean as respondent you'd provide the defence of truth, you'd require evidence that:
1. She had made a claim of having been raped
2. This claim was false
3. She was motivated to make this claim for financial gain
No, starting with 1, I'm not aware of that evidence [Post edited 15 Oct 2016 18:28]
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Reply | Ched Evans no longer a rapist.
at 14:16 15 Oct 2016
Re OP- No, theres no case for slander whatsoever.
She would however, certainly be successful if she chose to take action against anyone making public accusations that she cried rape for financial gain. [Post edited 15 Oct 2016 14:35]
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Reply | Black managers
at 14:23 7 Nov 2015
Go on then, i'll have another go.
No one, including me, is saying its about racist club directors refusing to appoint black managers, or giving/not sacking black managers jobs when theyre not seen as best for the job
theyre saying theres a systemic issue, which results in inequality of employment opportunity. As said in my first post - its not simply the boardroom choice of the 'best person for the job', its the level of opportunity and barriers along the way to becoming, and being recognised as that best person. That route from the bottom to the top which probably does still occasionally involve identifiably racist views/decisions, but also a multitude of incidents, choices, opinions, preconceptions, where in less obvious ways race can be a factor in the level of opportunity experienced. I suspect a big part of the solution is people becoming conscious of the issue, so they become less likely to act as such unconsciously.
to address it, it has to be accepted as existing- and I'll fully acknowledge that i personally dont know first hand if it does or not, im not aware of every experience someone of minority ethnicity trying to get into management has had. But equally those who have stated categorically that it doesnt exist have absolutely no idea either, and thats where the thread started- lots of people arrogantly dismissing it from a position of complete ignorance, and responding to someone who dared offer a different view far more disparagingly than any of my posts.
If you dont know something, dont state an opinion and expect it to be respected until you have first considered some evidence and have a rational argument based upon it.
The statistics referred to undeniably indicate a strong prevalence of inequality within football. if you recalibrate the bias involved to what should be an 'equal opportunity' coin-flip its consistently landing heads 9 times out of ten. Youd presume therefore the coin is weighted in someway.
but in addition to that, the concept of employment inequality itself is not football specific, and exists everywhere to varying extent. So unless its claimed football is a special exception despite the contrary evidence, theres a far wider pool of evidence that can be considered- and if you are to dismiss it completely, youre dismissing it existing in wider society too- which is a big call.
Statistics generally dont lie. there can be bad data collection, there can be bad analysis, and you could make a rational argument to challenge on those grounds if you found one- but studies usually follow fairly rigorous research procedures, peer review etc. Theres enough stuff out there to form a comprehensive case- and the notion its something invented by the political left is of course pathetic- when its existence and need to address it was a main point of camerons speech at the tory conference, its hardly playing to your audience- you can be pretty sure its happening.
I've not claimed to be an expert, or conducted research, just read bits- you dont have to look far outside mainstream media where it appears quite often, and its pretty obvious that if you want to hold a credible opinion based on the evidence- then existence of such inequality cant be denied. All the opinions expressed otherwise have been just that- individuals personal opinion with no valid basis, often expressed quite obnoxiously.
To see a cascade of posts outright refuting it as 'bollocks, pathetic, load of lefty shite' - 'skin colour doesnt matter anymore' - 'its because theyre not good enough' - well thats not good is it? it creates circular belief system resulting in a false consensus- and when the lack of awareness is part of the problem - and its a fairly significant society wide issue- then its important that gets challenged rather than respected as 'your opinion'
There were several 'nicer' posts by various people who did just that early in the thread- when those rational views get further dismissed as 'bollocks' again based on nothing but baseless personal opinion- I suggest thats whats arrogant, thats whats objectionable. rather than somebody who points out the truth of their opinion in response- albeit frankly.
Look at the nature of the other replies just within this thread, plenty similar/more objectionable that didnt raise an eyebrow, singling mine out as the worst in the history of the messageboard, along with the personal attacks was a little OTT. but there you go, its not a problem.
it was deliberately stated it in a manner that others might find as objectionable as I found their posts- to get it registered in the collective consciousness, if I offended a few sensibilities along the way to making a point then im sure theyll get over it. bobbyjoe insisted i play bad cop, to his good. blame him. Seems to have worked tho- id imagine an empirical study of the messageboards crass stupidity levels will find its dropped a little as a result of our excellent work.
other than that ive taken no moral position, claimed no superiority of opinion, accused no one of racism- thats what others are choosing to infer themselves. I just pointed out the statements being made were wrong, not morally wrong, not in my opinion wrong, but objectively identifiably not actually reality in any way - wrong.
As to addressing, theres plenty of action you can take which doesnt discriminate in anyway whatsoever. and the rooney rule is a perfectly acceptable thing to try
finished. might go watch some football. [Post edited 7 Nov 2015 17:27]
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Reply | Black managers
at 07:27 5 Nov 2015
Im not good at putting usernames to people. Im assuming youre calling me a w@nker and referring to something else? care to elaborate? |
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Reply | Black managers
at 00:08 5 Nov 2015
I shall try to explain my view again, without causing such apparent personal offence
Evidence shows a clear statistical anomaly with respect to race, sufficient to conclude that discrimination is highly likely to exist somewhere in the system. Thats not based on my opinion, its based on a substantive fact existent in real world data. It is data from which it can be reasonably deduced that actually 20% of jobs dont have the potentially best person due to issues of race.
Its an issue which many more studies have established occurs across society, and as the evidence indicates theres no reason to think football any different, it forms part of that wider issue. So I consider we are equally discussing the issue of ethnic discrimination in employment generally and dont think its something that should be lightly dismissed.
Its a problem, and part of that problem are those who steadfastly refuse to acknowledge it happens anymore. The large number of posts casually dismissing any possible notion of its existance, regardless of the evidence, simply because they choose to think otherwise isnt a rational position to hold, and has the damaging effect of adding to an accepted consensus that no problem exists.
I consider the notion that skin colour plays no role in the levels of opportunity, almost certainly ignorant of the evidence and naive to the reality, which is why I stated it as such. Previous posts, including those of others have explained as to why.
I suggested those dismissing the issue dont have a clue as to the reality, because it is highly likely they dont - they have no way of knowing- in reality, whether such discrimination exists or not- yet outright dismiss evidence and studies which indicates there to be such a reality. I doubt theyve reviewed the relevant material, conducted their own research, or developed a rational argument capable of challenging those that conclude otherwise- just refute it all as bollocks, but based on what? Naming black people who've had jobs doesnt add to the argument, the 25%-4% ratio is the question that requires explanation.
I also suspect they arent of an ethnic minority who have had to experience it- and informing those that may have, that regardless of the evidence or their experience, they have no entitlement to perceive prejudice exists, and must accept they just arent as good, may be seen as offensive to many.
I consider it a 'false personal opinion', because it doesnt concur with established facts, has no corroboratory external source, and doesnt come from from a position of knowledge. I dont consider it arrogant to state relevant facts to challenge such a consensus, certainly no more so than to declare the apparent statistical proof as 'bollocks' just because it conflicts with a self conceived narrative.
None of my posts were intended to offend nor were they, or this one, wished to be considered as aimed personally- im not sure the personal abuse in return is necessary- they were points made to challenge the general consensus of those happy to instantly dismiss the issue by instructing the world of how 'leftie-guardian-loadofpcbollox' completely made up it all is, without really knowing in the slightest as to whether such a view is valid.
Given this isnt a debate of the relevant facts, and that challenging opinion gets personal abuse in return, its perhaps best to leave it here.
[Post edited 5 Nov 2015 6:37]
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Reply | Black managers
at 23:33 3 Nov 2015
As previously stated in the thread, that ethnic discrimination exists with regard to employment opportunity is established in evidence.
Those who disagree are naive/ignorant as to true facts, and perhaps should educate themselves on matters before making incredibly weak, but still potentially damaging posts.
That the 'Colour of anyones skin matters not these days -its a load of Bollox' is a completely false personal opinion, based on no facts whatsoever, from someone who clearly doesnt have a clue as to what the reality is. [Post edited 3 Nov 2015 23:44]
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Reply | Black managers
at 16:30 1 Nov 2015
Then you misunderstood.
There was a developing consensus in this thread that no problem existed with regard to racial inequality in football management employment, and that any steps to address it were wrongful.
In argument to this I set out the basis and evidence on which such a problem does exist, and that it was therefore reasonable to consider positive action to redress.
Having made known the specific question to be answered for credible dispute of my argument, when none came forth I considered the argument won. I am still open to this occurring, but otherwise I suggest those holding the opposing view should recognise it wrong.
I do not consider steps to positively redress an inequality need be/are discriminative.
I have been wholly consistent in my views and posts.
I commented on the thread because I recognise that an ill-informed consensus of no problem existing, and the naivety and ignorance which gives rise to that view, is a big part of the problem itself.
Given the context of the thread I questioned the motivation of posts which appeared expressed, and invited others to find, humour in the perceived incompetence of individuals selected on the basis of race.Given the reply I do not consider it to have been anything malicious.
If you consider fans part of the football institution then this thread is a prime example of how institutionalised racism does exist.
I do not consider your personal view as to what constitutes racism as a reasonable one.
I do not consider you, in your rather angry and abusive posts, to have proved yourself suitably competent in providing a rational argument as to be taken seriously. [Post edited 1 Nov 2015 20:42]
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Reply | Black managers
at 20:08 31 Oct 2015
Point was made and argument won a while back. When you opted for name calling I went glib. Have a nice evening. |
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Reply | Black managers
at 19:14 31 Oct 2015
Thankyou for taking the effort to higlight my consistency. Positive action to redress, not positive discrimination.
Gotta stay positive, shouldnt discriminate comrade.
Dont worry JC still loves you, they both do. |
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Reply | Black managers
at 18:57 31 Oct 2015
Have not mentioned positive discrimination comrade, its not a term I agree with. I simply made known to those denying there was any kind of problem, that such a problem does exist, and that being the case football should be looking to redress it. |
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Reply | Black managers
at 18:49 31 Oct 2015
I draw opinions from rational analysis of empirical evidence. If conflicting evidence or a contrary, rational argument is made apparent I adjust accordingly comrade. [Post edited 31 Oct 2015 18:49]
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Reply | Black managers
at 18:40 31 Oct 2015
In a thread about addressing ethnic disparity within football management- why obtusely shift to discussing incompetent referees, naming just two who happen to be of ethnic minority? |
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Reply | Black managers
at 18:27 31 Oct 2015
Why pick out Singh and Rennie if its not to mock perceived competency based on racial grounds? |
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Reply | Black managers
at 17:31 31 Oct 2015
There is an issue, across society and in football, of an undeniable statistical disparity with regard to the race ratio within senior positions compared to the base pool from which candidates emerge. Something which is reasonably attributed to notions of institutionalised racism.
If you think that its not an issue, that opportunity is blind to skin colour, that racism has been fixed now, then you are naive and ignorant as to the reality. As Porlicks alludes, such ignorance and naivety can be racially profiled as a predominately white affliction.
It is not simply the boardroom choice of the 'best person for the job', it is level of opportunity and barriers along the way to becoming, and being recognised as that best person. When 25% of the pool from which senior coaches and managers emerge are black, yet only 4% in employment at that level, there is an issue to be addressed. It is reasonable to propose that football clubs, given the role they play in society, take positive action towards doing so.
Those posters claiming there to be no issue, and who even seem somewhat aggrieved that the matter be raised, perhaps need to explain the 25% / 4% disparity to lend themselves credibility- as they do seem to be suffering from the white affliction somewhat. |
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Reply | Hills Championship team?
at 12:33 10 Oct 2015
Heaton
Wiseman Dawson O'Connell Kennedy
Allen Perkins
Done
Buckley Hogan O'Grady
Dont think Murray meets the 'Hill brought into club' criteria does he? |
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Reply | Election result thread
at 19:08 12 May 2015
Labour didnt/dont want electoral reform at westminster or in unions, wheres the hypocrisy? |
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Reply | What would you like the Dale home kit to look like?
at 16:05 30 Apr 2015
It isn't irrelevant mathematically, most polls are conducted on far lower sample size percentages. In this case, with the numbers you mention, you can be 95% confident that a full survey would deliver a result within 10% of the results of this poll.
That a large majority of fans would prefer blue/black stripes cannot credibly be doubted. A valid question of relevancy would be as to how relevant fan opinion is/should be to club decision making. |
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Reply | George Donnelly
at 15:09 8 Jan 2015
Until he acknowledges his crimes and apologises I dont think any club should even consider signing him. Even then I think he's likely to re-offend in the future.
And for those who think he's not guilty of anything- I for one definitely did not consent to what he subjected me to.
He still has the right to earn a living- just not as a footballer. [Post edited 8 Jan 2015 15:10]
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