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Renato Sanches - just walks and ambles around the pitch on 02:49 - Sep 17 by E20Jack
This thread shows the mindset of many of our fans, if you think this thread is a solitary comment then again I believe you either to be disingenuous and incapable of holding your hands up or naive to a degree rarely seen. I hope its the latter.
Bony absolutely left us with the lazy tag, as did Scotland. How can a player be labelled lazy when he doesn't play? That is horrendously stupid to say he picked that tag up at Man City and Stoke. He was called lazy weeekly with us when we didnt win.
You are saying Llorente only escaped the lazy tag due to the amount of goals he scored? Which is also the same for Trundle yes? Then why did the goals Bony and Scotland score not save them? Funny that.
I most certainly am not remembering Trundle from his second spell here, in fact it is distinctly forgettable. He was never one to run and bust a gut off the ball harrying defenders and chasing lost causes, never. Yet that was fine. Again, funny that.
The poster above sums it up perfectly. Being called lazy from time to time is one thing, having a steroetype attached to your name is another completely.
Horrendously stupid?.
Not understanding why some fans (incorrectly) thought Bony and Scotland were lazy is horrendously stupid, at best grossly naive. In fact, the laziest thing about this thread is playing the race card when it's pretty obvious they had very distinct playing styles that made it look like they weren't putting the effort in.
Your post confirms you don't remember how Trundle played in his first spell. Chasing lost causes is irrelevant. Leon Knight didn't do a lot of that. Trundle popped up all over the place in attacking areas. People are naturally going to think a player who does that is working harder than one who sticks to a smaller area
The poster above does sum it up, he just got the reason wrong. Going on what he said, they were the only two with a reputation for laziness, I think it's fair to add Shelvey to that. The difference is, I think it's because they had similar playing styles that can't realistically be compared to anyone else, you think it's because they are black.
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Renato Sanches - just walks and ambles around the pitch on 08:11 - Sep 17 with 1497 views
Besides by one or two Bony wasn't labelled with the lazy brush, nor Barrow who was actually quite busy but unfortunately crap with it. Emnes wasn't lazy, nor Ady Forbes or Jonatan DeGuzman or Jason Scotland. JJ Price was never labelled lazy and in fact I vividly remember the encouragement he got from the North Bank as we all wanted to see a young localish boy do well, even though he wasn't very good. Luke Moore got beaten with the lazy stick but I'm not sure if he was, he had a languid style though.
So, in recent times the two players I think most often carrying the lazy tag are Llorente and Beattie. Hardly a compelling argument for institutionalised racism amongst Swans fans.
All in my opinion of course.
‘……. like a moth to Itchy’s flame ……’
Renato Sanches - just walks and ambles around the pitch on 08:53 - Sep 17 by ItchySphincter
Stupid f*cking argument again.
Besides by one or two Bony wasn't labelled with the lazy brush, nor Barrow who was actually quite busy but unfortunately crap with it. Emnes wasn't lazy, nor Ady Forbes or Jonatan DeGuzman or Jason Scotland. JJ Price was never labelled lazy and in fact I vividly remember the encouragement he got from the North Bank as we all wanted to see a young localish boy do well, even though he wasn't very good. Luke Moore got beaten with the lazy stick but I'm not sure if he was, he had a languid style though.
So, in recent times the two players I think most often carrying the lazy tag are Llorente and Beattie. Hardly a compelling argument for institutionalised racism amongst Swans fans.
All in my opinion of course.
There were plenty of people who labelled JdG as lazy. And a coward.
Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f*cking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back.
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Renato Sanches - just walks and ambles around the pitch on 09:27 - Sep 17 with 1421 views
Renato Sanches - just walks and ambles around the pitch on 08:10 - Sep 17 by jack247
Horrendously stupid?.
Not understanding why some fans (incorrectly) thought Bony and Scotland were lazy is horrendously stupid, at best grossly naive. In fact, the laziest thing about this thread is playing the race card when it's pretty obvious they had very distinct playing styles that made it look like they weren't putting the effort in.
Your post confirms you don't remember how Trundle played in his first spell. Chasing lost causes is irrelevant. Leon Knight didn't do a lot of that. Trundle popped up all over the place in attacking areas. People are naturally going to think a player who does that is working harder than one who sticks to a smaller area
The poster above does sum it up, he just got the reason wrong. Going on what he said, they were the only two with a reputation for laziness, I think it's fair to add Shelvey to that. The difference is, I think it's because they had similar playing styles that can't realistically be compared to anyone else, you think it's because they are black.
Yes horrendously stupid.
There is no playing of the race card. I hate PC culture if you look at my post history. I just contributed to the carnival thread where people dressed up as the Cool Runnings crew and clearly said race is not a barrier and they shoukd be allowed to. What I am commenting on is clear, not spurious.
Popping up all over the place in attacking areas is neither here nor there, so did Scotland. Scotland scored tap ins and the 30 yard screamer. I most certainly do remember Trundle in his first spell, I think it is you that is forgetting his slow walks back into an inside position and the subsequent 5 mins of hands on hips huffing and puffing until he is ready to go again. Watching a youtube clip of him catching the ball on his neck isnt going to alter history.
You also dont seem to remember Leon Knight, he was constantly playing on the shoukder of the defence and chasing lost causes into the corners and putting keeper under pressure. I am not sure what you are trying to do here but you have clearly made a stand and cannot back down in the face of quite clear evidence.
I will absolutely give you Shelvey. But that is the only white player that I think can genuinelly have that tag in the last 25 years. Considering most of our players have been white during that time the ratio is horrific, horrif and wholly unnatural to be just coincidential as you seem to be implying.
Renato Sanches - just walks and ambles around the pitch on 09:23 - Sep 17 by Dr_Winston
There were plenty of people who labelled JdG as lazy. And a coward.
Yes that is another, in fact, a great example. I remember being flummoxed by the abuse JdG used to get about his application and performances, especially considering he was our best midfielder for vast majority of games. They have to work twice as hard to get the same approval it seems.
There is a clear pattern and anyone suggesting otherwise soly does not want to see it, as it is practically slapping you in the face with its obviousness.
Bafe Gomis is another. Yet don't think I have ever seen anyone label Borja the same.
""Although I cannot promise or predict the future, I can guarantee one thing - the current board of directors will always fight, as we have done over the last 12 years, to work together as one with the Supporters Trust to make 100% sure that Swansea City football club remains the number one priority in all our thoughts and in every decision we make."
Renato Sanches - just walks and ambles around the pitch on 08:53 - Sep 17 by ItchySphincter
Stupid f*cking argument again.
Besides by one or two Bony wasn't labelled with the lazy brush, nor Barrow who was actually quite busy but unfortunately crap with it. Emnes wasn't lazy, nor Ady Forbes or Jonatan DeGuzman or Jason Scotland. JJ Price was never labelled lazy and in fact I vividly remember the encouragement he got from the North Bank as we all wanted to see a young localish boy do well, even though he wasn't very good. Luke Moore got beaten with the lazy stick but I'm not sure if he was, he had a languid style though.
So, in recent times the two players I think most often carrying the lazy tag are Llorente and Beattie. Hardly a compelling argument for institutionalised racism amongst Swans fans.
All in my opinion of course.
I stopped reading past "JJ Price used to get encouragement from the North Bank as they wanted to see a local boy do good".
My goodness gracious me. I don't think I have ever felt so sorry for a player in all my life as I have done with Jason Price, the abuse he was subjected to consistantly was something even now I am ashamed of, just being in that stand. He was often afraid to even get the ball. He was subjected to a torrent of racial abuse.
Renato Sanches - just walks and ambles around the pitch on 09:32 - Sep 17 by E20Jack
Yes that is another, in fact, a great example. I remember being flummoxed by the abuse JdG used to get about his application and performances, especially considering he was our best midfielder for vast majority of games. They have to work twice as hard to get the same approval it seems.
There is a clear pattern and anyone suggesting otherwise soly does not want to see it, as it is practically slapping you in the face with its obviousness.
Bafe Gomis is another. Yet don't think I have ever seen anyone label Borja the same.
See I agree with some of that but not all of it. Have you considered that some fans are just thick and wouldn't know a decent footballer from a carthorse, regardless of colour.
‘……. like a moth to Itchy’s flame ……’
Renato Sanches - just walks and ambles around the pitch on 09:36 - Sep 17 by E20Jack
I stopped reading past "JJ Price used to get encouragement from the North Bank as they wanted to see a local boy do good".
My goodness gracious me. I don't think I have ever felt so sorry for a player in all my life as I have done with Jason Price, the abuse he was subjected to consistantly was something even now I am ashamed of, just being in that stand. He was often afraid to even get the ball. He was subjected to a torrent of racial abuse.
Not as I recall and not from where I was standing but although I don't remember it I wouldn't argue that there could have been a knuckle dragging element that used to sing the pineapple song or suchlike. If you were a part of that you are right to feel ashamed.
‘……. like a moth to Itchy’s flame ……’
Renato Sanches - just walks and ambles around the pitch on 09:37 - Sep 17 by ItchySphincter
See I agree with some of that but not all of it. Have you considered that some fans are just thick and wouldn't know a decent footballer from a carthorse, regardless of colour.
Considered? Yes. Accepted that as the reason? No.
I think there is a subconscious misconception based on physical appearance. I don't think it is vindictive racism, it is racism born from ignorance.
Being a decent footballer doesn't seem to have anything to do with it. It is about work rate. Jason Scotland was clearly a decent footballer, he used to bang in 25+ a season, yet that didn't help him. He was called lazy every game, as was Gomis, as was De Guzman, as was Bony and as now is Sanches.
Renato Sanches - just walks and ambles around the pitch on 09:37 - Sep 17 by ItchySphincter
See I agree with some of that but not all of it. Have you considered that some fans are just thick and wouldn't know a decent footballer from a carthorse, regardless of colour.
That's probably closer to the truth, but like him or not E20 has a point. It does seem to be disproportionate.
Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f*cking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back.
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Renato Sanches - just walks and ambles around the pitch on 09:44 - Sep 17 with 1373 views
Renato Sanches - just walks and ambles around the pitch on 09:40 - Sep 17 by ItchySphincter
Not as I recall and not from where I was standing but although I don't remember it I wouldn't argue that there could have been a knuckle dragging element that used to sing the pineapple song or suchlike. If you were a part of that you are right to feel ashamed.
Eh? And if you are a nazi you should feel ashamed. What on earth made you say that?
To me, saying I cant remember Jason Price being abused game after game is like saying you cant remember Trundle doing any tricks. Just can't fathom it.
Renato Sanches - just walks and ambles around the pitch on 09:42 - Sep 17 by E20Jack
Considered? Yes. Accepted that as the reason? No.
I think there is a subconscious misconception based on physical appearance. I don't think it is vindictive racism, it is racism born from ignorance.
Being a decent footballer doesn't seem to have anything to do with it. It is about work rate. Jason Scotland was clearly a decent footballer, he used to bang in 25+ a season, yet that didn't help him. He was called lazy every game, as was Gomis, as was De Guzman, as was Bony and as now is Sanches.
So was Llorente, so was Beattie, so was Trundle ...........
It only correlates with race if you want it to. if it truly did why aren't discussing Leon Knight and Adrian Forbes, or John Williams, Nathan Dyer or Wayne Routledge?
I'm not denying that we're likely to have racist fans but sometimes people don't understand what they're seeing in front of them but that doesn't necessarily make them racist, subconsciously or otherwise.
‘……. like a moth to Itchy’s flame ……’
Renato Sanches - just walks and ambles around the pitch on 09:44 - Sep 17 by E20Jack
Eh? And if you are a nazi you should feel ashamed. What on earth made you say that?
To me, saying I cant remember Jason Price being abused game after game is like saying you cant remember Trundle doing any tricks. Just can't fathom it.
Say what now? You've just argued with me for agreeing with you.
‘……. like a moth to Itchy’s flame ……’
Renato Sanches - just walks and ambles around the pitch on 09:49 - Sep 17 by ItchySphincter
So was Llorente, so was Beattie, so was Trundle ...........
It only correlates with race if you want it to. if it truly did why aren't discussing Leon Knight and Adrian Forbes, or John Williams, Nathan Dyer or Wayne Routledge?
I'm not denying that we're likely to have racist fans but sometimes people don't understand what they're seeing in front of them but that doesn't necessarily make them racist, subconsciously or otherwise.
Llorente and Beattie had nowhere near the same level of laziness attached to their name, it just simply is not true to state they did. It is horrifically inaccurate. I would say Gomis ran more than Llorente did - I would love to have a count up of how many times Llorente has been called it and compared it with Gomis, I would hazard a guess at a ratio of 40:1 such is the disparity. Llorente will not be remembered as a lazy player and have rarely seen or heard anyone refer to him as such.
Trundle was labelled as unfit and overweight (because he clearly was) but never lazy, same with Andy Robinson, Jan Molby. They were out of shape for professional footballers.
You can try and reel off as many names to balance it out for some kind of debate game if you wish, but it wont change facts. The only in shape (relatively) caucasian player that will be remembered widely for being lazy in my opinion is Shelvey, and that is because he absolutely was.
The fact the majority of our players in history have been caucasian yet the "lazy abuse" seems to be attributed to our ethnic minority players at a rate far outweighing caucasian players regardless of whether they are or not says all there is to say. There is an issue.
Renato Sanches - just walks and ambles around the pitch on 09:27 - Sep 17 by E20Jack
Yes horrendously stupid.
There is no playing of the race card. I hate PC culture if you look at my post history. I just contributed to the carnival thread where people dressed up as the Cool Runnings crew and clearly said race is not a barrier and they shoukd be allowed to. What I am commenting on is clear, not spurious.
Popping up all over the place in attacking areas is neither here nor there, so did Scotland. Scotland scored tap ins and the 30 yard screamer. I most certainly do remember Trundle in his first spell, I think it is you that is forgetting his slow walks back into an inside position and the subsequent 5 mins of hands on hips huffing and puffing until he is ready to go again. Watching a youtube clip of him catching the ball on his neck isnt going to alter history.
You also dont seem to remember Leon Knight, he was constantly playing on the shoukder of the defence and chasing lost causes into the corners and putting keeper under pressure. I am not sure what you are trying to do here but you have clearly made a stand and cannot back down in the face of quite clear evidence.
I will absolutely give you Shelvey. But that is the only white player that I think can genuinelly have that tag in the last 25 years. Considering most of our players have been white during that time the ratio is horrific, horrif and wholly unnatural to be just coincidential as you seem to be implying.
I'm not accusing you of being an ultra PC snowflake. I'm disputing what you have said on this thread, where you have absolutely played the race card.
We have eventually agreed there have been 3 players in recent history whose reputations have been tarnished with the lazy tag. 2 of them are black. I think, we have agreed that the likes of Emnes, JdG, Hernandez and Orlandi were sometimes accused of it but not on the same scale as Bony, Scotland or Shelvey.
Where we differ, is that I think Bony and Scotland have had that stigma because they are powerful players who stay central and don't do a lot of running. You think it is because a significant section of our fans are either consciously or more likely subconsciously racist.
Leon Knight, by the way, used to sit on the shoulder and burst into life at the right time. As he absolutely should have done, he was superb at it. He didn't track back and was hardly on the go all the time.
What's happened here is you have made a throwaway comment without really thinking about it.
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Renato Sanches - just walks and ambles around the pitch on 10:01 - Sep 17 with 1330 views
Renato Sanches - just walks and ambles around the pitch on 09:54 - Sep 17 by E20Jack
Llorente and Beattie had nowhere near the same level of laziness attached to their name, it just simply is not true to state they did. It is horrifically inaccurate. I would say Gomis ran more than Llorente did - I would love to have a count up of how many times Llorente has been called it and compared it with Gomis, I would hazard a guess at a ratio of 40:1 such is the disparity. Llorente will not be remembered as a lazy player and have rarely seen or heard anyone refer to him as such.
Trundle was labelled as unfit and overweight (because he clearly was) but never lazy, same with Andy Robinson, Jan Molby. They were out of shape for professional footballers.
You can try and reel off as many names to balance it out for some kind of debate game if you wish, but it wont change facts. The only in shape (relatively) caucasian player that will be remembered widely for being lazy in my opinion is Shelvey, and that is because he absolutely was.
The fact the majority of our players in history have been caucasian yet the "lazy abuse" seems to be attributed to our ethnic minority players at a rate far outweighing caucasian players regardless of whether they are or not says all there is to say. There is an issue.
Ignore it if you like, no skin off my nose.
[Post edited 17 Sep 2017 9:59]
"Llorente and Beattie had nowhere near the same level of laziness attached to their name, it just simply is not true to state they did."
They did.
Just because you present it as fact it doesn't make it so.
‘……. like a moth to Itchy’s flame ……’
Renato Sanches - just walks and ambles around the pitch on 10:00 - Sep 17 by jack247
I'm not accusing you of being an ultra PC snowflake. I'm disputing what you have said on this thread, where you have absolutely played the race card.
We have eventually agreed there have been 3 players in recent history whose reputations have been tarnished with the lazy tag. 2 of them are black. I think, we have agreed that the likes of Emnes, JdG, Hernandez and Orlandi were sometimes accused of it but not on the same scale as Bony, Scotland or Shelvey.
Where we differ, is that I think Bony and Scotland have had that stigma because they are powerful players who stay central and don't do a lot of running. You think it is because a significant section of our fans are either consciously or more likely subconsciously racist.
Leon Knight, by the way, used to sit on the shoulder and burst into life at the right time. As he absolutely should have done, he was superb at it. He didn't track back and was hardly on the go all the time.
What's happened here is you have made a throwaway comment without really thinking about it.
Noting clear and obvious racism is not "playing the race card". You absolutely don't seem to understand what that phrase was invented for or indeed refers to. If the ratio was 1:1 and I stated that it was racism then you may be justified using that phrase.
I did not know we were compiling a final list. Can you add Gomis, Price, Moore and Sanches to that list please. That then becomes 6:1. All will be remembered for laziness of which I have very little doubt.
We have had many players that are powerful that stay in a central area none of which had the stigma of being lazy, even back to the Torpey days right the way through to players such as Pintado, Llorente and Graham (less of the power in his case but a very central player).
My comment was not throwaway what so ever, this is a view I have had for years and have almost certainly thought about it far more than you have the counter. To argue otherwise would suggest you have also noticed it has been an issue for a long time in order to consider that counter of course...which then, of course, sort of proves my point.
Renato Sanches - just walks and ambles around the pitch on 10:01 - Sep 17 by ItchySphincter
"Llorente and Beattie had nowhere near the same level of laziness attached to their name, it just simply is not true to state they did."
They did.
Just because you present it as fact it doesn't make it so.
I present it as a fact because it is. If you think Llorente has the same lazy stigma as Bony and Scotland then you are off your rocker. Similarly if you think Jason Price was regularly encouraged by the North Bank.
Renato Sanches - just walks and ambles around the pitch on 10:09 - Sep 17 by E20Jack
Noting clear and obvious racism is not "playing the race card". You absolutely don't seem to understand what that phrase was invented for or indeed refers to. If the ratio was 1:1 and I stated that it was racism then you may be justified using that phrase.
I did not know we were compiling a final list. Can you add Gomis, Price, Moore and Sanches to that list please. That then becomes 6:1. All will be remembered for laziness of which I have very little doubt.
We have had many players that are powerful that stay in a central area none of which had the stigma of being lazy, even back to the Torpey days right the way through to players such as Pintado, Llorente and Graham (less of the power in his case but a very central player).
My comment was not throwaway what so ever, this is a view I have had for years and have almost certainly thought about it far more than you have the counter. To argue otherwise would suggest you have also noticed it has been an issue for a long time in order to consider that counter of course...which then, of course, sort of proves my point.
[Post edited 17 Sep 2017 10:16]
Not really because I'd then have to add all the white players already listed that have been accused of laziness. Sanches has been here 2 weeks and you're already implying he gets more grief for laziness that any Caucasian bar Shelvey.
Danny Graham! You've lost it now. He was one of the hardest working centre forwards we've had. You think he would have been called lazy if he was black?
Your last comment makes no sense at all. You've posted what I consider to be bollocks on the internet and I've told you why I think it's bollocks. It's not a topic that had occurred to me before you posted it.
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Renato Sanches - just walks and ambles around the pitch on 10:16 - Sep 17 with 1290 views
Renato Sanches - just walks and ambles around the pitch on 10:09 - Sep 17 by E20Jack
Noting clear and obvious racism is not "playing the race card". You absolutely don't seem to understand what that phrase was invented for or indeed refers to. If the ratio was 1:1 and I stated that it was racism then you may be justified using that phrase.
I did not know we were compiling a final list. Can you add Gomis, Price, Moore and Sanches to that list please. That then becomes 6:1. All will be remembered for laziness of which I have very little doubt.
We have had many players that are powerful that stay in a central area none of which had the stigma of being lazy, even back to the Torpey days right the way through to players such as Pintado, Llorente and Graham (less of the power in his case but a very central player).
My comment was not throwaway what so ever, this is a view I have had for years and have almost certainly thought about it far more than you have the counter. To argue otherwise would suggest you have also noticed it has been an issue for a long time in order to consider that counter of course...which then, of course, sort of proves my point.
[Post edited 17 Sep 2017 10:16]
Part of the problem for Gomis was that he wasn't Wilf. Some people took against him as they saw him as inferior, despite having a different style. He was seen as inadequate compared to Wilf but not because he was black. In my opinion.
I'm not disagreeing with you for the sake of it, or even disagreeing with all elements of your argument but it's not as black and white as you're making it.
‘……. like a moth to Itchy’s flame ……’
Renato Sanches - just walks and ambles around the pitch on 10:16 - Sep 17 by ItchySphincter
Part of the problem for Gomis was that he wasn't Wilf. Some people took against him as they saw him as inferior, despite having a different style. He was seen as inadequate compared to Wilf but not because he was black. In my opinion.
I'm not disagreeing with you for the sake of it, or even disagreeing with all elements of your argument but it's not as black and white as you're making it.
Yet both have the lazy stigma in bucket loads. So the fact one wasn't the other doesnt really compute.
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