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with it seeming increasingly likely that the donald will pull out of the paris climate deal, opinions are totally irrelevant, unless you happen to be a governor in an area where coal, gas or oil contribute heavily to the local population, and you have some interesting pictures in the safe of a well known lawyer. so, is the truth out there? can there be a rational argument when emotions get in the way? or is it all down to the green bucks, and besides, any real effect won't happen till I'm long gone.
should the general public have a genuine say in how our leaders decide our future, or should we just leave it up to the lobbyists?
It's not what you've got; it's where you stick it.
I'm just pissed off that a country the size of ours which on an average sized classroom globe can't even be drawn accurately, seem to have politicians that think we should be taxed to the hilt to pay for the whole world to put it right, we could have zero emissions in the U.K. And it wouldn't make a blind bit of difference.
favourite cheese mature Cheddar. FFS there is no such thing as the EPL
The concept that it's something we can control is the con trick of all time. These politicians who have taxed us on it should be put on trial.
There's a big yellow ball in the sky, way beyond our comprehension, and it controls life on Earth 100%.
This planet has existed for 4.5 BILLION years. It'll go on for another 4.5 BILLION years, yet there's oiks born in the last Century who apparently have the answer to life itself. It's about time these fckers were run out of town.
Oh boy, this thread could really open Pandora's box
So, a few points: Tax - We are not being heavily taxed to support renewables plus there is a long history of tax regimes being used to support the energy market ingeneral. Globally, fossil fuels are subsidised around six times more heavily than renewables. Here in the UK, the government has granted tax concessions to the fossil fuel industry and this now also applies to fracking. Hinckley C will also be very heavily subsidised and then there is also the £70bn + cost of decommissioning Sellafield. We, as a country, will pay for that. Historically, the cost of nuclear power and fossil fuels rises, whereas the cost of renewables falls. The cheapest new source of energy in the UK is now onshore wind, bar none.
The sun and climate - The sun obviously plays a big role but so also does the composition of the atmosphere. CO2 is undeniably a greenhouse gas - we have known this since Tyndall discovered that in the 18th century, so yes, we can influence the climate and global temperatures.
The Chinese hoax - An incredible claim from Trump given that most of the climate scientists who discovered the impact human activity is having on the climate and global temperatures are actually American. Michael Mann, he of hockey stick graph fame/infamy, works at Penn State University.
The coal industry and American jobs - Renewables are generating more jobs than the fossil fuel industry these days, including in the US. The coal industry became heavily mechanised in the 70s anyway so it's a fallacy to say that putting the emphasis on coal will create a load of jobs.
What doesn't get mentioned often in connection with fossil fuels is the number of premature deaths they cause due to air pollution. I believe the figure is something like 40,000 just in the UK. Then there's also the cost of caring for those affected by air pollution.
Even if you don't agree with any of the above, energy security should be a very good reason to support renewables. Do we want to be reliant on gas or other fuels supplied by dubious regimes and which has to be shipped halfway round the world, past flashpoints and through regions patrolled by pirates?
RFA
"Things had started becoming increasingly desperate at Loftus Road but QPR have been handed a massive lifeline and the place has absolutely erupted. it's carnage. It's bedlam. It's 1-1."
On the subject of renewable energy. Wind farms, can't see why people moan about them so much, much more pleasing on the eye than the old fashioned pylons that blot the countryside and interfere with car radios when driving anywhere near them, sort of a modern day windmill.
favourite cheese mature Cheddar. FFS there is no such thing as the EPL
The climate has always been changing. But now there's a group of people with vested interests in pretending they can stop it changing any further.
I'm not sure who you mean by "vested interests". The IPCC does not consist of green pressure groups, it's universities and the like. I actually searched the PDF listing all the contributors and Friends of the Earth and Greenpeace, as examples, were not in it.
RFA
"Things had started becoming increasingly desperate at Loftus Road but QPR have been handed a massive lifeline and the place has absolutely erupted. it's carnage. It's bedlam. It's 1-1."
The concept that it's something we can control is the con trick of all time. These politicians who have taxed us on it should be put on trial.
There's a big yellow ball in the sky, way beyond our comprehension, and it controls life on Earth 100%.
This planet has existed for 4.5 BILLION years. It'll go on for another 4.5 BILLION years, yet there's oiks born in the last Century who apparently have the answer to life itself. It's about time these fckers were run out of town.
It's terrifying how much traction the 'man-made climate change is a hoax' conspiracy theory has got over the last decade. The number of people who will ignore the vast phalanx of scientists and science because of the bits and pieces they've picked up from very vocal climate change denial lobby groups.
It's terrifying how much traction the 'man-made climate change is a hoax' conspiracy theory has got over the last decade. The number of people who will ignore the vast phalanx of scientists and science because of the bits and pieces they've picked up from very vocal climate change denial lobby groups.
of course there is climate change, there has been forever. My point is it's futile pretending the little any of us can do will make any difference, it won't.
Don't be sucked in by these modern day witch doctors, man made climate change won't make a blind bit of difference, mountains won't explode if you don't do what they say any more than you ll go to hell if you don't follow religious practice, rulers rule by fear, by divide and rule, it's what they do.
I'm starting to get why I'm a left leaning libertariate, it's the climate fascists whose the real right wing authoritarians.
It's an absolute no brainer that if we can get energy that is clean AND renewable then we should. The technology improvements will make it a financial imperative soon enough.
The causes of climate change and whether man can do much about it is soon to be a pointless debate if my first sentence is correct. Although we can always step up the pressure on those farting sheep.
As for Trump. The country that has Tesla and Google at the forefront of electric vehicle technology has a dinosaur in the Whitehouse.
It's astonishing how many people seem to want to believe whatever theory there's the least evidence for. I suppose this is how OJ Simpson escaped his double muder rap.
Even if you haven't eamined any of the arguments, the very fact that all the most powerful vested interests are on the denial side (ie the fossil fuel industry) should tell you everything you need to know.
It's an absolute no brainer that if we can get energy that is clean AND renewable then we should. The technology improvements will make it a financial imperative soon enough.
The causes of climate change and whether man can do much about it is soon to be a pointless debate if my first sentence is correct. Although we can always step up the pressure on those farting sheep.
As for Trump. The country that has Tesla and Google at the forefront of electric vehicle technology has a dinosaur in the Whitehouse.
You're right it's already a pointless debate.
If Stevec and Loftboy ignored the word climate change and replaced it with air pollution then they'd the answer to why it's necessary to try and prevent pollution (not climate change itself) through taxation. When China and other countries decide to do the same (it is a when not an if, China themselves are at the forefront of research for smog and have started introducing legislation to reduce pollution in built up areas) we COULD be at the forefront of an emerging market but it will take investment (again it might mean borrowing but there should be a return on that so I'll use the word invest) by the government into green energy which would also create jobs and make the technology affordable to us now, helping us improve our environment into the equation.
No wait, sod it give the money to Hincley C and French government instead.
The concept that it's something we can control is the con trick of all time. These politicians who have taxed us on it should be put on trial.
There's a big yellow ball in the sky, way beyond our comprehension, and it controls life on Earth 100%.
This planet has existed for 4.5 BILLION years. It'll go on for another 4.5 BILLION years, yet there's oiks born in the last Century who apparently have the answer to life itself. It's about time these fckers were run out of town.
The planet's survival isn't in doubt. It will disappear eventually. Meantime, humans are trying to make it a more pleasant place to live on if they can. Seems reasonable.
If Stevec and Loftboy ignored the word climate change and replaced it with air pollution then they'd the answer to why it's necessary to try and prevent pollution (not climate change itself) through taxation. When China and other countries decide to do the same (it is a when not an if, China themselves are at the forefront of research for smog and have started introducing legislation to reduce pollution in built up areas) we COULD be at the forefront of an emerging market but it will take investment (again it might mean borrowing but there should be a return on that so I'll use the word invest) by the government into green energy which would also create jobs and make the technology affordable to us now, helping us improve our environment into the equation.
No wait, sod it give the money to Hincley C and French government instead.
The cost of solar energy has been coming down steadily for a while now, and is going to speed up as the Chinese drive it forward. Their incredible growth over the last 2 decades has resulted in abominable pollution levels and now their huge middle class are complaining about the horrific air quality. Hence the Chinese government investing in solar (& other renewable) energy supplies and driving down the price. There are also some major developments on the horizon in these fields.
As usual, however, Britain and the USA are following the vested interests of the fossil fuel industry and dragging their feet. The consequence is we're being left behind in the technological stakes. Businesses (and jobs) of the future? Nah, we're fine where we are.
Shooting from the hip not intending to offend but possibly will, the loudest advocates lived In mansions and burned lights all night and turned graphs upside down. The evidence is decidedly dodgy, and the hectoring from the greatest consumers of energy, that yank that did not become President most of all. The green thing was hitler in Munich 20 years ago and totally turned me off. Total agenda. No idea what it is apart from airline taxes. There's serious consequences to mismanaged climate but what the fck is th untrustworthy agenda? For me it can fck right off, climate has always changed. We have to be responsible personally, nationally and internationally. But the whole hectoring blood can fck off. If there's a problem the messenger royally faked up. Water here in this part of Spain is a proper traded resource, people sell land with water rights and charge accordingly. Nice olives, liquid gold, no water no gold. It's harsh, but life. The fat ya in his mansion lit 24 hours daily can fck right off.. I unplug my microwave and turn off the bedside light. That cnt consumes whilst he sleeps. The whole green thing has a problem. Fat yanks just for a start. No offence untended to the believers, another narrative exists.
Oh boy, this thread could really open Pandora's box
So, a few points: Tax - We are not being heavily taxed to support renewables plus there is a long history of tax regimes being used to support the energy market ingeneral. Globally, fossil fuels are subsidised around six times more heavily than renewables. Here in the UK, the government has granted tax concessions to the fossil fuel industry and this now also applies to fracking. Hinckley C will also be very heavily subsidised and then there is also the £70bn + cost of decommissioning Sellafield. We, as a country, will pay for that. Historically, the cost of nuclear power and fossil fuels rises, whereas the cost of renewables falls. The cheapest new source of energy in the UK is now onshore wind, bar none.
The sun and climate - The sun obviously plays a big role but so also does the composition of the atmosphere. CO2 is undeniably a greenhouse gas - we have known this since Tyndall discovered that in the 18th century, so yes, we can influence the climate and global temperatures.
The Chinese hoax - An incredible claim from Trump given that most of the climate scientists who discovered the impact human activity is having on the climate and global temperatures are actually American. Michael Mann, he of hockey stick graph fame/infamy, works at Penn State University.
The coal industry and American jobs - Renewables are generating more jobs than the fossil fuel industry these days, including in the US. The coal industry became heavily mechanised in the 70s anyway so it's a fallacy to say that putting the emphasis on coal will create a load of jobs.
What doesn't get mentioned often in connection with fossil fuels is the number of premature deaths they cause due to air pollution. I believe the figure is something like 40,000 just in the UK. Then there's also the cost of caring for those affected by air pollution.
Even if you don't agree with any of the above, energy security should be a very good reason to support renewables. Do we want to be reliant on gas or other fuels supplied by dubious regimes and which has to be shipped halfway round the world, past flashpoints and through regions patrolled by pirates?
It's astonishing how many people seem to want to believe whatever theory there's the least evidence for. I suppose this is how OJ Simpson escaped his double muder rap.
Even if you haven't eamined any of the arguments, the very fact that all the most powerful vested interests are on the denial side (ie the fossil fuel industry) should tell you everything you need to know.
Not really true....energy companies are exactly that, they'll make returns for shareholders on whatever fuel source is making a profit (or even a loss if you know how to shake down a government agency). Many of the old school companies have very large stakes in solar, wind farms etc, came as something of a surprise to me some years ago to find I held paper in solar when I thought I'd invested in fracking!. Indeed I think it does an injustice to American entrepreneurs by suggesting they'll discontinue research & development just because a President or bureaucrat isn't going to slap them on the back.
even kingdoms in the Middle East are beginning to come round to the fact they need to start.
Trump is a f*cking moron but we already knew that. It's not like the Paris accords will save the world but when even China is adhering to them you have to look at yourself and think, in the words of Mitchell and Webb, are we the baddies? and May is just as bad for not slamming him for doing so. John bloody Major had more of a backbone than her.
Like I said, Paris won't save the world but you have to try don't you. Scientists think the great barrier reef is already done for which is very odd to hear... We're one of the largest islands in the world. We should be pioneers in terms of wind and tidal energy but we do the bare minimum. It's embarrassing.
“The thing about football - the important thing about football - is that it is not just about football.â€
even kingdoms in the Middle East are beginning to come round to the fact they need to start.
Trump is a f*cking moron but we already knew that. It's not like the Paris accords will save the world but when even China is adhering to them you have to look at yourself and think, in the words of Mitchell and Webb, are we the baddies? and May is just as bad for not slamming him for doing so. John bloody Major had more of a backbone than her.
Like I said, Paris won't save the world but you have to try don't you. Scientists think the great barrier reef is already done for which is very odd to hear... We're one of the largest islands in the world. We should be pioneers in terms of wind and tidal energy but we do the bare minimum. It's embarrassing.
Same scientists who can tell you the weather in a couple of hundred years but haven't a clue if it's raining next Wednesday?
Granted, I've had a drink. But unless I'm missing something here, our Planet has been in an Ice age for the last 2 point 4 million years. With the ice sheets moving North and South roughly every ten thousand years. ( so called Ice Age)
But if the truth be told.. .. In the morning..... And at the going down of the Sun....
Granted, I've had a drink. But unless I'm missing something here, our Planet has been in an Ice age for the last 2 point 4 million years. With the ice sheets moving North and South roughly every ten thousand years. ( so called Ice Age)
But if the truth be told.. .. In the morning..... And at the going down of the Sun....
I don't really give a toss.
What's going on?
We should be told
Sort it out
Has the ice in your brandy melted, diabolical liberty, fck Trump.
of course there is climate change, there has been forever. My point is it's futile pretending the little any of us can do will make any difference, it won't.
Don't be sucked in by these modern day witch doctors, man made climate change won't make a blind bit of difference, mountains won't explode if you don't do what they say any more than you ll go to hell if you don't follow religious practice, rulers rule by fear, by divide and rule, it's what they do.
I'm starting to get why I'm a left leaning libertariate, it's the climate fascists whose the real right wing authoritarians.
"Don't be sucked in by these modern day witch doctors, man made climate change won't make a blind bit of difference"
There's a reason why every country except Nicaragua* and Syria signed the Paris climate treaty: It's because the science is clear. Mankind is having a clear and major effect on the climate. We know that some gases have a greenhouse effect, we have been measuring the levels of them in the atmosphere for many years, and we have a temperature record which indicates that global average temperatures are rising. We have correlation and causation.
Our impact on the climate is leading to increasingly extreme weather, higher temperatures, altered rainfall patterns and rising sea levels. The changing climate has already made some places uninhabitable and we are just at the start. The world's coastal mega cities are in real trouble. Pumps are running almost constantly in New York, as an example, trying to stop the subway from flooding and as for Florida, that is on death row. Miami will be permanently underwater by the 2030s.
Don't see wanting to protect our environment and our climate as a political thing. The Left should not be seen as owning the green stuff. There are plenty on the right who recognise the need to act. I say this as a socialist...
RFA
* Nicaragua didn't sign it because they thought it was too weak.
"Things had started becoming increasingly desperate at Loftus Road but QPR have been handed a massive lifeline and the place has absolutely erupted. it's carnage. It's bedlam. It's 1-1."
Not really true....energy companies are exactly that, they'll make returns for shareholders on whatever fuel source is making a profit (or even a loss if you know how to shake down a government agency). Many of the old school companies have very large stakes in solar, wind farms etc, came as something of a surprise to me some years ago to find I held paper in solar when I thought I'd invested in fracking!. Indeed I think it does an injustice to American entrepreneurs by suggesting they'll discontinue research & development just because a President or bureaucrat isn't going to slap them on the back.
Many of the world's major fossil fuel companies have publically stated that they agree that our greenhouse gas emissions are causing CC and GW....
RFA
"Things had started becoming increasingly desperate at Loftus Road but QPR have been handed a massive lifeline and the place has absolutely erupted. it's carnage. It's bedlam. It's 1-1."
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