| End of Term Report 22/23 — "Defence" on 17:09 - May 19 with 2136 views | eastside_r |
Not much that I would disagree with here but I would add this to the Dickie discussion.
Obviously last two seasons he has been first choice. PBBC comes in and signs two of his boys. Dickie starts the season on the bench.
Right from the very start Dickie had a face like thunder when warming up he was obviously very unhappy about something and I surmise it's the above. (otherwise it's something else in his personal life?)
As you have said, at the end of the season (last two away games) he was perhaps getting his mojo back. If GA et al can get him back to performing anything like his 'old form' then he is one of the best CBs in this division.
Maybe it is a need for some TLC but I agree the drop-off was alarming. Please can we have the old Rob back. |  | |  |
| End of Term Report 22/23 — "Defence" on 17:17 - May 19 with 2111 views | TheChef |
| End of Term Report 22/23 — "Defence" on 17:09 - May 19 by eastside_r |
Not much that I would disagree with here but I would add this to the Dickie discussion.
Obviously last two seasons he has been first choice. PBBC comes in and signs two of his boys. Dickie starts the season on the bench.
Right from the very start Dickie had a face like thunder when warming up he was obviously very unhappy about something and I surmise it's the above. (otherwise it's something else in his personal life?)
As you have said, at the end of the season (last two away games) he was perhaps getting his mojo back. If GA et al can get him back to performing anything like his 'old form' then he is one of the best CBs in this division.
Maybe it is a need for some TLC but I agree the drop-off was alarming. Please can we have the old Rob back. |
Unfortunately I think Dickie just has one of those worried-looking faces. Even playing well he had the same look. |  |
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| End of Term Report 22/23 — "Defence" on 17:31 - May 19 with 2082 views | Antti_Heinola |
| End of Term Report 22/23 — "Defence" on 16:08 - May 19 by Northernr |
Bit too close to Redknapp that conclusion mate. For me it's about balance, and our balance is wholly out of whack at the moment. |
Clive, the last line was very tongue in cheek :)
Totally agree, it is about balance. |  |
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| End of Term Report 22/23 — "Defence" on 17:32 - May 19 with 2084 views | Northernr |
| End of Term Report 22/23 — "Defence" on 17:31 - May 19 by Antti_Heinola |
Clive, the last line was very tongue in cheek :)
Totally agree, it is about balance. |
I did wonder. Congrats, landed me  |  | | |
| End of Term Report 22/23 — "Defence" on 17:53 - May 19 with 2014 views | CateLeBonR |
| End of Term Report 22/23 — "Defence" on 15:58 - May 19 by Northernr |
Well there's no As and no Bs at this point, one B/C, three Cs... a couple of Es. |
With a DD for Chris Martin. |  | | |
| End of Term Report 22/23 — "Defence" on 18:05 - May 19 with 1987 views | sprocket |
Thanks Clive.
I have to say though I thought you were fairly restrained and generous with the ratings. |  | | |
| End of Term Report 22/23 — "Defence" on 20:25 - May 19 with 1874 views | ParkRoyalR |
Excellent write up, really appreciate, but imo, giving Dunne the same score for the season as Kakay is very very harsh (and like you, I am a fan of Kakay as a squad defender and / or old fashioned right midfielder)
I think saying Dunne and Dickie come as a pair could be why you've scored Dunne down, as really they should'nt and don't, unless Dunne's been told to look after his little brother (which is what it looked like for most of the season) as their performances this season are fathoms apart, with one standing up to fight and the other shrinking and disappearing.
Likewise saying they are both slow, when one is morbidly slow and the other was played at right-back in the words of GA because he has pace (i don't think he's quick, but he covers the ground quick enough just has a very laboured gait), even if you re-watch the clips posted you can see just how slow Dickie moves by comparison to Dunne,
I finally gave up on Dickie as a defender for that 1st goal away at Rotherham (players makes mistakes but that was schoolboy stuff on so many levels) and just now wonder how he ever coped with the physicality of League 1 (or maybe my view of League 1 is out-dated and the Championship is a more physical league)
There was a home-game prior to that where Dunne looked to play the ball to Dickie out of defence and Dickie deliberately turned his back on him, and I knew then his confidence was shot. But when your low on confidence or its not going your way, in the words of Roy Keane just start kicking people, and Rob just has'nt even got the dog in him to do that.
Even Dickie's supposed renaissance at Burnley was in most part doing for me what he should'nt have been doing, leaving his man un-marked and rushing to the line on the off-chance he might be able to block the inevitable header or shot.
If Dickie is to play in a 3 next year, we have to play to his strength, which is travelling with the ball, playing long passes or shooting, rather than relying on his defensive ability.
Unless we get a world-class Right Back and Left Footed Centre Back to cover him, there is no way he can play in a Back 4. | | | |
| End of Term Report 22/23 — "Defence" on 20:45 - May 19 with 1856 views | derbyhoop |
Any review of our defence, that conceded 71 goals, was never going to be pretty. I thought it wasn't as vitriolic as I expected.
The lack of availability/commitment by certain.individuals was totally valid. |  |
| Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the Earth all one’s lifetime. (Mark Twain)
Find me on twitter @derbyhoop |
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| End of Term Report 22/23 — "Defence" on 21:31 - May 19 with 1808 views | distortR |
| End of Term Report 22/23 — "Defence" on 15:58 - May 19 by Northernr |
Well there's no As and no Bs at this point, one B/C, three Cs... a couple of Es. |
A couple of E's is the only way to watch the R's. | | | |
| End of Term Report 22/23 — "Defence" on 23:54 - May 19 with 1672 views | Northernr |
| End of Term Report 22/23 — "Defence" on 20:25 - May 19 by ParkRoyalR |
Excellent write up, really appreciate, but imo, giving Dunne the same score for the season as Kakay is very very harsh (and like you, I am a fan of Kakay as a squad defender and / or old fashioned right midfielder)
I think saying Dunne and Dickie come as a pair could be why you've scored Dunne down, as really they should'nt and don't, unless Dunne's been told to look after his little brother (which is what it looked like for most of the season) as their performances this season are fathoms apart, with one standing up to fight and the other shrinking and disappearing.
Likewise saying they are both slow, when one is morbidly slow and the other was played at right-back in the words of GA because he has pace (i don't think he's quick, but he covers the ground quick enough just has a very laboured gait), even if you re-watch the clips posted you can see just how slow Dickie moves by comparison to Dunne,
I finally gave up on Dickie as a defender for that 1st goal away at Rotherham (players makes mistakes but that was schoolboy stuff on so many levels) and just now wonder how he ever coped with the physicality of League 1 (or maybe my view of League 1 is out-dated and the Championship is a more physical league)
There was a home-game prior to that where Dunne looked to play the ball to Dickie out of defence and Dickie deliberately turned his back on him, and I knew then his confidence was shot. But when your low on confidence or its not going your way, in the words of Roy Keane just start kicking people, and Rob just has'nt even got the dog in him to do that.
Even Dickie's supposed renaissance at Burnley was in most part doing for me what he should'nt have been doing, leaving his man un-marked and rushing to the line on the off-chance he might be able to block the inevitable header or shot.
If Dickie is to play in a 3 next year, we have to play to his strength, which is travelling with the ball, playing long passes or shooting, rather than relying on his defensive ability.
Unless we get a world-class Right Back and Left Footed Centre Back to cover him, there is no way he can play in a Back 4. |
Mate, this is a great post, which I agree with almost completely, and I appreciate you taking the time to make it. It's exactly the sort of debate these articles are meant to provoke. I much prefer this to the standard Twitter "A 6? FOR THAT? YOU CNT, IT WAS A 5 AT BEST" replies you tend to get for match ratings or grades. The nuance is in the words, and it's pretty soul destroying to spend Sunday night doing 2,500 words on QPR 1 Blackburn 3 only for the comments and WhastApp messages to then immediately stream in about why somebody was a 4 and not a 3 or a 5.
On your points specifically...
Yes, Dunne and Kakay have the same C/D grade, but they're being judged against different standards. I'm in no way saying Kakay's input, performances or influence have been the same as Dunne's. I'm saying that kakay is the reserve right back/utility defender, 10-20 apps expected, and here's my assessment of him in that role; Dunne is the starting centre back, signed from a Premier League team, 35-45 apps expected, and here's my assessment of him in that role.
Yes, I have basically paired Dickie and Dunne up for the reasons I've given in the piece, but I was very careful and deliberate to give Dickie a lower mark than Dunne, for all the reasons you've given in your post. I, like you, am a big fan of Dunne, whereas I think Dickie has played like a complete prat all year.
I suspect you think Dickie should have been more of an E, Dunne more of a C, a bigger gap between the two. You may well be right. Let me explain our thinking.
There will be no As. You don't have the season we've just had and go around awarding As. I don't think there will be Bs. Possibly Field, we've got him on a B/C at the moment and the highest, but the more we think and talk about Chair we think maybe he gets a B/C annd Field is our only B. There is then a tier below Field - Tim maybe, Paal maybe, Dykes maybe - who we think might be worthy of recognition of a C. Everything else is variations of D, E, F.
We have chosen to punish unavailability. It's been the team's biggest problem this year, and I think it's been blatantly obvious in multiple cases that this unavailability has been through choice, cowardice and self preservation, rather than actual injuries. I think watching the club, and the manager, basically chuck the medical team under the bus, which they're now blatantly doing, to cover and excuse what's gone on, is despicable. And so players who did at least turn up for work are getting higher grades, which is why Dickie is perhaps a D rather than an E, which then nudges him closer to Dunne.
We're also aware of "recency bias". This is a big thing in Chris Willock's mark. If he'd had his first eight games of the season as his last eight games of the season, we'd be creaming our pants about what's in store for him next season, talking about his goals, losing our sht. Without his performances at the start of the season we'd be down. So do we hammer him for what's happened since? Or do we remember what happened before? This was a big debate with Ethan Laird as well. Are those two Ds, Es? I remember Mass Luongo getting player of the year here by playing well in the last 10 games, when it was obviously Freeman. Dickie got goal of the season, when it was obviously Ball. Through recency bias. So we're concious of that.
And it genuinely is "we". There are a good 20-30 of us now in the Crown every Saturday, some post on here, some Twitter accounts, some neither. There are WhatsApp groups. OzRanger has been to almost every game with me this year and believe me he tells me straight away when he thinks the ratings are slightly off. We've all collectively spent the last month debating whether Chair is a B or a C, how hard we go in on Roberts. I've been asking repeatedly, every conversation I have with journalists, people at the club, on and off the record, what's the score with Richards. It's not just me sitting here lazily just attributing a C/D to Dunne, there's genuine thought and process in it.
This post has been edited by an administrator | | | |
| End of Term Report 22/23 — "Defence" on 08:19 - May 20 with 1509 views | distortR |
| End of Term Report 22/23 — "Defence" on 23:54 - May 19 by Northernr |
Mate, this is a great post, which I agree with almost completely, and I appreciate you taking the time to make it. It's exactly the sort of debate these articles are meant to provoke. I much prefer this to the standard Twitter "A 6? FOR THAT? YOU CNT, IT WAS A 5 AT BEST" replies you tend to get for match ratings or grades. The nuance is in the words, and it's pretty soul destroying to spend Sunday night doing 2,500 words on QPR 1 Blackburn 3 only for the comments and WhastApp messages to then immediately stream in about why somebody was a 4 and not a 3 or a 5.
On your points specifically...
Yes, Dunne and Kakay have the same C/D grade, but they're being judged against different standards. I'm in no way saying Kakay's input, performances or influence have been the same as Dunne's. I'm saying that kakay is the reserve right back/utility defender, 10-20 apps expected, and here's my assessment of him in that role; Dunne is the starting centre back, signed from a Premier League team, 35-45 apps expected, and here's my assessment of him in that role.
Yes, I have basically paired Dickie and Dunne up for the reasons I've given in the piece, but I was very careful and deliberate to give Dickie a lower mark than Dunne, for all the reasons you've given in your post. I, like you, am a big fan of Dunne, whereas I think Dickie has played like a complete prat all year.
I suspect you think Dickie should have been more of an E, Dunne more of a C, a bigger gap between the two. You may well be right. Let me explain our thinking.
There will be no As. You don't have the season we've just had and go around awarding As. I don't think there will be Bs. Possibly Field, we've got him on a B/C at the moment and the highest, but the more we think and talk about Chair we think maybe he gets a B/C annd Field is our only B. There is then a tier below Field - Tim maybe, Paal maybe, Dykes maybe - who we think might be worthy of recognition of a C. Everything else is variations of D, E, F.
We have chosen to punish unavailability. It's been the team's biggest problem this year, and I think it's been blatantly obvious in multiple cases that this unavailability has been through choice, cowardice and self preservation, rather than actual injuries. I think watching the club, and the manager, basically chuck the medical team under the bus, which they're now blatantly doing, to cover and excuse what's gone on, is despicable. And so players who did at least turn up for work are getting higher grades, which is why Dickie is perhaps a D rather than an E, which then nudges him closer to Dunne.
We're also aware of "recency bias". This is a big thing in Chris Willock's mark. If he'd had his first eight games of the season as his last eight games of the season, we'd be creaming our pants about what's in store for him next season, talking about his goals, losing our sht. Without his performances at the start of the season we'd be down. So do we hammer him for what's happened since? Or do we remember what happened before? This was a big debate with Ethan Laird as well. Are those two Ds, Es? I remember Mass Luongo getting player of the year here by playing well in the last 10 games, when it was obviously Freeman. Dickie got goal of the season, when it was obviously Ball. Through recency bias. So we're concious of that.
And it genuinely is "we". There are a good 20-30 of us now in the Crown every Saturday, some post on here, some Twitter accounts, some neither. There are WhatsApp groups. OzRanger has been to almost every game with me this year and believe me he tells me straight away when he thinks the ratings are slightly off. We've all collectively spent the last month debating whether Chair is a B or a C, how hard we go in on Roberts. I've been asking repeatedly, every conversation I have with journalists, people at the club, on and off the record, what's the score with Richards. It's not just me sitting here lazily just attributing a C/D to Dunne, there's genuine thought and process in it.
This post has been edited by an administrator |
Mate, the work you (And your mates) undertake IS appreciated. | | | |
| End of Term Report 22/23 — "Defence" on 08:34 - May 20 with 1502 views | wrinklyhoop |
| End of Term Report 22/23 — "Defence" on 17:53 - May 19 by CateLeBonR |
With a DD for Chris Martin. |
At least that would match his bra size. | | | |
| End of Term Report 22/23 — "Defence" on 09:39 - May 20 with 1460 views | Northolt_Rs |
Fantastic write up as ever. Given the slop that’s been churned out by our team this season and the total mess we are as a football club, I don’t know how you muster yourself to do this stuff….and at this level. Hugely appreciated. |  |
| Scooters, Tunes, Trainers and QPR. |
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| End of Term Report 22/23 — "Defence" on 10:34 - May 20 with 1397 views | ParkRoyalR |
| End of Term Report 22/23 — "Defence" on 23:54 - May 19 by Northernr |
Mate, this is a great post, which I agree with almost completely, and I appreciate you taking the time to make it. It's exactly the sort of debate these articles are meant to provoke. I much prefer this to the standard Twitter "A 6? FOR THAT? YOU CNT, IT WAS A 5 AT BEST" replies you tend to get for match ratings or grades. The nuance is in the words, and it's pretty soul destroying to spend Sunday night doing 2,500 words on QPR 1 Blackburn 3 only for the comments and WhastApp messages to then immediately stream in about why somebody was a 4 and not a 3 or a 5.
On your points specifically...
Yes, Dunne and Kakay have the same C/D grade, but they're being judged against different standards. I'm in no way saying Kakay's input, performances or influence have been the same as Dunne's. I'm saying that kakay is the reserve right back/utility defender, 10-20 apps expected, and here's my assessment of him in that role; Dunne is the starting centre back, signed from a Premier League team, 35-45 apps expected, and here's my assessment of him in that role.
Yes, I have basically paired Dickie and Dunne up for the reasons I've given in the piece, but I was very careful and deliberate to give Dickie a lower mark than Dunne, for all the reasons you've given in your post. I, like you, am a big fan of Dunne, whereas I think Dickie has played like a complete prat all year.
I suspect you think Dickie should have been more of an E, Dunne more of a C, a bigger gap between the two. You may well be right. Let me explain our thinking.
There will be no As. You don't have the season we've just had and go around awarding As. I don't think there will be Bs. Possibly Field, we've got him on a B/C at the moment and the highest, but the more we think and talk about Chair we think maybe he gets a B/C annd Field is our only B. There is then a tier below Field - Tim maybe, Paal maybe, Dykes maybe - who we think might be worthy of recognition of a C. Everything else is variations of D, E, F.
We have chosen to punish unavailability. It's been the team's biggest problem this year, and I think it's been blatantly obvious in multiple cases that this unavailability has been through choice, cowardice and self preservation, rather than actual injuries. I think watching the club, and the manager, basically chuck the medical team under the bus, which they're now blatantly doing, to cover and excuse what's gone on, is despicable. And so players who did at least turn up for work are getting higher grades, which is why Dickie is perhaps a D rather than an E, which then nudges him closer to Dunne.
We're also aware of "recency bias". This is a big thing in Chris Willock's mark. If he'd had his first eight games of the season as his last eight games of the season, we'd be creaming our pants about what's in store for him next season, talking about his goals, losing our sht. Without his performances at the start of the season we'd be down. So do we hammer him for what's happened since? Or do we remember what happened before? This was a big debate with Ethan Laird as well. Are those two Ds, Es? I remember Mass Luongo getting player of the year here by playing well in the last 10 games, when it was obviously Freeman. Dickie got goal of the season, when it was obviously Ball. Through recency bias. So we're concious of that.
And it genuinely is "we". There are a good 20-30 of us now in the Crown every Saturday, some post on here, some Twitter accounts, some neither. There are WhatsApp groups. OzRanger has been to almost every game with me this year and believe me he tells me straight away when he thinks the ratings are slightly off. We've all collectively spent the last month debating whether Chair is a B or a C, how hard we go in on Roberts. I've been asking repeatedly, every conversation I have with journalists, people at the club, on and off the record, what's the score with Richards. It's not just me sitting here lazily just attributing a C/D to Dunne, there's genuine thought and process in it.
This post has been edited by an administrator |
Thanks for your response Northern, appreciated,
I am mindful my opinion on the forum can often be in the minority and I don't intend to be contrary for the sake of it, also mindful I tend to over-reward those who never hide and always try to play to the best of their ability.
So, similar to you, Kakay is a B for me for effort and an E for positional sense, so C/D, and I now get the different context for each player in how you come to your end of season grades.
Dickie, is a player I previously rated and the only way I can explain his collapse in form is he almost suffers from 'imposter syndrone', struggled at the start of his time here, came good and all that was undone by Beale just saying you're not good enough. Dunne has the dog in him to say I'll show you, whereas Dickie just took it as maybe he's right and folded. I see this in Dykes too at times, where they hav'nt got that real edge / arrogance you need to play at this level.
Ahead of the Midfielders Report , which will be really interesting (as I really dont know where you start, middle or end that report as Field aside, and Tim in cameo's, not sure we even had a midfield this year)
I mentioned previously about not throwing the baby out with the bath-water, which I get is hard after a season of Avanti train fares, disruption and watching a collapse of epic proportions, but for me, the likes of Sam Field is an A (would be an A+ if he could improve his passing) as when almost all around you are either phoning it in or throwing it in, to keep running and working as hard as he has all season for 90+ minutes is really something else, and without him and a few others we would be in League 1 come August, no doubt.
Really looking forward to the next two reports, thanks again for all your great writing, really top drawer stuff. | | | |
| End of Term Report 22/23 — "Defence" on 12:22 - May 20 with 1297 views | QPROslo |
| End of Term Report 22/23 — "Defence" on 23:54 - May 19 by Northernr |
Mate, this is a great post, which I agree with almost completely, and I appreciate you taking the time to make it. It's exactly the sort of debate these articles are meant to provoke. I much prefer this to the standard Twitter "A 6? FOR THAT? YOU CNT, IT WAS A 5 AT BEST" replies you tend to get for match ratings or grades. The nuance is in the words, and it's pretty soul destroying to spend Sunday night doing 2,500 words on QPR 1 Blackburn 3 only for the comments and WhastApp messages to then immediately stream in about why somebody was a 4 and not a 3 or a 5.
On your points specifically...
Yes, Dunne and Kakay have the same C/D grade, but they're being judged against different standards. I'm in no way saying Kakay's input, performances or influence have been the same as Dunne's. I'm saying that kakay is the reserve right back/utility defender, 10-20 apps expected, and here's my assessment of him in that role; Dunne is the starting centre back, signed from a Premier League team, 35-45 apps expected, and here's my assessment of him in that role.
Yes, I have basically paired Dickie and Dunne up for the reasons I've given in the piece, but I was very careful and deliberate to give Dickie a lower mark than Dunne, for all the reasons you've given in your post. I, like you, am a big fan of Dunne, whereas I think Dickie has played like a complete prat all year.
I suspect you think Dickie should have been more of an E, Dunne more of a C, a bigger gap between the two. You may well be right. Let me explain our thinking.
There will be no As. You don't have the season we've just had and go around awarding As. I don't think there will be Bs. Possibly Field, we've got him on a B/C at the moment and the highest, but the more we think and talk about Chair we think maybe he gets a B/C annd Field is our only B. There is then a tier below Field - Tim maybe, Paal maybe, Dykes maybe - who we think might be worthy of recognition of a C. Everything else is variations of D, E, F.
We have chosen to punish unavailability. It's been the team's biggest problem this year, and I think it's been blatantly obvious in multiple cases that this unavailability has been through choice, cowardice and self preservation, rather than actual injuries. I think watching the club, and the manager, basically chuck the medical team under the bus, which they're now blatantly doing, to cover and excuse what's gone on, is despicable. And so players who did at least turn up for work are getting higher grades, which is why Dickie is perhaps a D rather than an E, which then nudges him closer to Dunne.
We're also aware of "recency bias". This is a big thing in Chris Willock's mark. If he'd had his first eight games of the season as his last eight games of the season, we'd be creaming our pants about what's in store for him next season, talking about his goals, losing our sht. Without his performances at the start of the season we'd be down. So do we hammer him for what's happened since? Or do we remember what happened before? This was a big debate with Ethan Laird as well. Are those two Ds, Es? I remember Mass Luongo getting player of the year here by playing well in the last 10 games, when it was obviously Freeman. Dickie got goal of the season, when it was obviously Ball. Through recency bias. So we're concious of that.
And it genuinely is "we". There are a good 20-30 of us now in the Crown every Saturday, some post on here, some Twitter accounts, some neither. There are WhatsApp groups. OzRanger has been to almost every game with me this year and believe me he tells me straight away when he thinks the ratings are slightly off. We've all collectively spent the last month debating whether Chair is a B or a C, how hard we go in on Roberts. I've been asking repeatedly, every conversation I have with journalists, people at the club, on and off the record, what's the score with Richards. It's not just me sitting here lazily just attributing a C/D to Dunne, there's genuine thought and process in it.
This post has been edited by an administrator |
Thanks for your thinking behind these gradings. A bit like ParkRoyalR I have been struggling to understand how Kakay ( who I like as a player for his enthusiasm/optimistic way of of playing too) but nevertheless despite his improvement especially as you say getting forward, for me was still not the quality of Dieng or, to a slightly lesser extent Dunne, and only made 12 starts and 10 sub appearances when you had made clear how many games they were available for would be a big factor in the gradings. For me how well and how often each player did/played over the season were about the only criteria I was considering. I see you are also taking into consideration expectations of them beforehand, PL or other experience I gather, if they were considered back- up or regular I gather, and maybe what they cost, if you thought they were genuinely injured or not I guess? I still reckon Dieng was a good grade, a B- maybe, above Ozzie, a C- perhaps, but understand your rankings better now. [Post edited 21 May 2023 11:00]
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| End of Term Report 22/23 — "Defence" on 15:00 - May 22 with 779 views | toboboly |
I appreciate that this will seem like me throwing my toys out of the pram but if the club actually signed Balogun again I would question why I have a ST |  |
| Sexy Asian dwarves wanted. |
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| End of Term Report 22/23 — "Defence" on 16:54 - May 22 with 735 views | thehat |
Thanks Clive - Spot on with the comments.
I hope we play 3 at the back with wingbacks a bit more next season. I think it suits us better.
Midfield and forwards will be an interesting read………. | | | |
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