| What are the finances like at RAFC? 12:39 - Oct 27 with 22167 views | A_Newby |
Using what limited information is publicly available, you can get an appreciation of the black hole in the finances of the Dale.
Since last season we have lost around £650,000 premier league solidarity money and the income from the EFL trophy and EFL cup. Last season the club was losing money even with this funding.
For this season we have kept the full premier league RINGFENCED funding for the academy (£600,000?) and a full EFL league 2 payment (£550,000?). Next season if we do not get promoted these will drop by 50% so the club would lose at least another £500,000 of funding.
I think the chairman in the fans’ forum made a point something like if we didn’t have to pay players’ wages then we might be able to break even.
In other words, if around 2,500 paying fans turned up around 30 times per year and spent money in the bars and on refreshments and sat in the stadium for 2-3 hours watching a well-maintained empty football pitch or maybe an amateur team playing then the club could possibly break even.
The reason why is simple, the costs now of maintaining the ground and hosting football at the stadium for 2,500 fans is greater than the match day income generated from these fans.
For example, just looking at the energy costs as outlined at the last fans’ forum. If the same amount of energy is used this year as last, the bill under the new price deal will rise from around £60,000 to over £200,000.
£200,000 per year with an average attendance of 2,500 gives an energy price of £80 per fan per season. So, if a season card holder pays £100 for their ticket, £20 would go in VAT and the remainder towards the energy bill. Before there are any funds from matchday income to pay towards a a football squad there are also other costs to pay such as business rates, the ground and pitch maintenance and match day security.
There are really only three ways to increase the matchday income, raise entrance prices, get fans to spend more in the ground and increase the number of supporters.
I am hoping that the club can at least renegotiate its energy prices.
I still think that season card prices are too low and have been ever since the Russ Green “experiment”. Next season whatever the outcome I would raise them by £30 across the board for all over 16-year-olds.
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| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 07:26 - Oct 29 with 2995 views | D_Alien |
It was also in evidence 2 years ago
UTDNFS
The spirit of that needs bringing back, until we are truly fan-led | |
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| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 07:46 - Oct 29 with 2947 views | TalkingSutty |
A drum I've constantly beat, bored people to bloody death with🙂. Imagine volunteering for a real fan owned and fan run club, one you feel inclusive and also valued in. If it's really true that clubs at our level are going to cease to exist, then let our club die in the arms of the people who love it, the fans, not some parachuted in investor with a passion for building houses. [Post edited 29 Oct 2023 10:20]
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| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 07:50 - Oct 29 with 2941 views | Rodingdale |
I agree with main point in this post, I think there is a a real appetite for watching real live sport, connecting with your local team, getting the kids involved with the age group teams. Clubs do loads for community cohesion and could do more with better links with the local authority, health authorities and business.
The problem is the numbers seem so big that a solution seems so distant, but the solution is to do lots of things, not a silver bullet, as others have eloquently set out the current model is failing.
We clearly need to close the gap between income and expenditure, easy to say, but by breaking it down into smaller parts makes it seem less daunting. For example:
Reducing cost
Energy Bills - The stadium has acres of roof space, why doesn’t it have solar panels on at least the south / west facing stands?
Match day Operations / Stewarding - Utilise fans with local knowledge as a resource, for the price of free season tickets?
Increasing Income
Appraise redevelopment of part of the ground to incorporate new housing, with community facilities eg GP surgery - the ground itself occupies only part of the land, could we use it better to generate a long term income / cash receipt. I don’t know if it can but has it been appraised? Works at Orient. Didn’t one investor propose a hotel on the site?
Generate more match day income. In my opinion the match day offer is solely aimed at us lot, existing fans. Not targeting new fans, younger fans, women is naturally self limiting. Can we get a specialist hospitality firm in to run the hospitality or at least get someone to tell us what we need to do to increase turnover. A tiny thing like screening the Borehamwood game made some money - from acorns…
Increase attendances - The Stockport analogy is relevant if they can do it why can’t we. The mentality should be to eradicate empty seats even if we have to give them away.
The current board seems paralysed by the investor route, what do they think an investor is going to do? Well if we get a good one they’ll be doing what I’ve set out above.
By they way if getting to cost = income means a division lower then so be it. We still get to watch the Dale! | | | |
| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 08:14 - Oct 29 with 2895 views | 442Dale |
The spirit shown in posts this morning is uplifting. Someone in these parts once said something along the lines of “only fans know what fans want”. You either think like a football fan, or you don’t.
It’s never been more true. The collective spirit of being a Dale fan still exists, it needs to be capitalised on. Not dismissed, disrespected or disengaged.
That starts with the Trust. History will remember. There’s another quote seen around here used in association with a supporters group that existed down the road:
They know. | |
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| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 08:16 - Oct 29 with 2890 views | D_Alien |
And for that matter, why not reach out to our different ethnic townsfolk?
Giving tickets to those who've recently arrived in town could give them a focus, a sense of belonging, and they've got role models in the team too. Much better than letting them drift, or form their own isolated groups
[Post edited 29 Oct 2023 8:18]
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| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 08:24 - Oct 29 with 2876 views | seasidedale |
With regards energy, why don’t we do like Mansfield did and kicked off at 2 pm to save on floodlights | | | |
| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 13:26 - Oct 29 with 2649 views | TVOS1907 |
Removing relegation and promotion would kill the league competition.
Remember what it was like before the play-offs were introduced, when most teams in a division, from January onwards, had absolutely nothing to play for in the remainder of a season? A return to that sort of set-up? No thanks. | |
| When I was your age, I used to enjoy the odd game of tennis. Or was it golf? |
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| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 13:28 - Oct 29 with 2647 views | TVOS1907 |
Didn't they do it just once or maybe twice?
The floodlights are always on at kick-off time during the winter months, so I doubt it makes any significant difference. | |
| When I was your age, I used to enjoy the odd game of tennis. Or was it golf? |
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| What are the finances like at RAFC? (n/t) on 13:39 - Oct 29 with 2623 views | seasidedale |
Every bit helps each saving per game would add up, when we are skint we have to “penny pinch “to a degree [Post edited 29 Oct 2023 13:40]
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| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 14:20 - Oct 29 with 2550 views | James1980 |
Could someone shed light on why the bring a friend or vastly reduced potd prices never seem to have a particularly great take up? | |
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| What are the finances like at RAFC? (n/t) on 14:41 - Oct 29 with 2526 views | 49thseason |
I wonder if every bulb in the entire stadium has been replaced by an LED?
Maybe replacing the bulbs all the non LED bulbs would be a suitable project for the Trust to use its volunteers for and maybe contribute to the cost?
Certainly all the lighting in the stands hasnt been replaced, I wonder if it has been changed in the bars, and offices, changing rooms etc?
https://www.visionassetfinance.com/
Given our demand is highest in the winter months, maybe wind turbines on the corners of the stands would be a better prospect than Solar? Linked to a battery system, it could provide most of the power required . Andy Burnham seems to think its a good idea... https://alpha-311.com/news/alpha-311-mou-greater-manchester-combined-authority-2 Perhaps an opportunity for a bit of quid pro quo sponsorship too? | | | |
| What are the finances like at RAFC? (n/t) on 15:02 - Oct 29 with 2492 views | Rodingdale |
All possibilities. The trust could raise with the ‘board’ and offer to seek options from the contacts you mention. | | | |
| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 19:03 - Oct 29 with 2347 views | A_Newby |
“I don’t think the information is that limited”.
As a minor shareholder I have the five-year trading summary provided by the chairman and the annual P&L accounts over the last five seasons, but I disagree with you, they are limited and not detailed financial information.
The information regarding the five-year trading summary provided in the chairman’s letter whilst revealing has been aggregated and presented in such a way as to demonstrate a single point, that the club’s annual operating income has for years been less than its annual costs and that the accounts have only been balanced by one off special events such as transfer fees or income from a good cup run.
Now what other analysis on these data provided can you perform and what conclusions can you draw?
For example, in the 2018 season the match attendance revenues were approximately £1,570k. What does this figure include? Season card revenue and POTD sales? Does it include the revenue from the bars and refreshment sales (they do not appear as separate revenue items)?
In the 2018 season the club tried the scheme to increase the number of season ticket holders by offering much reduced prices. We also had the good FA cup including a home tie against Tottenham.
I would like to see the effects of the “Russ Green” scheme on the club’s finances.
Now given that the only figure you are provided with is £1,570k for the total match attendance revenues can you tell me what happened to revenue from gate receipts from home supporters for the 23 EFL matches in this season? Did the revenue go up, go down or remain the same as the previous season?
In my estimate I think there was a reduction due to the scheme in EFL home gate revenue for the season 2018 of around £200k - £250k compared to the previous season but you can’t see that in these “limited” figures. | | | |
| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 19:43 - Oct 29 with 2287 views | James1980 |
The issue for me was the execution of the 17/18 season scheme wasn't the plan to get 4000 season tickets sold at £110 each?
16/17 season had seen the team nearly make the playoffs. Hill had been given his five year contract extension. My guess is the board thought at least 4000 season tickets would have been sold and the atmosphere at Spotland would jumping and provide the boost to see the team making a playoff spot or even automatic promotion
However they decided to use that daft non refundable deposit scheme. | |
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| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 19:57 - Oct 29 with 2251 views | downunder |
There is one point in post by TS which needs to be followed up. Solar Power. I believe I read that Crown Oil were exploring Green energy alternatives, or something along those lines. Does that include Solar? Having a roof covered by solar panels with the name of the installer underneath is what I am thinking.
I have had Solar installed and I am seeing the benefits already (yes, I know we have more sun where I am) Definitely worth exploring. | | | |
| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 20:01 - Oct 29 with 2236 views | TalkingSutty |
It wasn't myself who raised that point, it was another poster. Agree with your post though. | | | |
| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 10:28 - Oct 30 with 1986 views | A_Newby |
You are right James. The plan was to get to 4,000 home supporters.
The average home attendance of Dale fans for several seasons before 2017-8 was around 2,400 – 2,500 fans. This was split roughly as 1,200 season ticket holders and 1,200 POTD.
The idea (good intention) was to get more home supporters (4,000+). The scheme was supposed to generate approximately the same or similar EFL match home gate receipts as previous seasons but spread over a greater number (roughly double) of fans attending. This meant that each fan on average would then pay approximately half as much as previously.
With a larger home support, the club would then hopefully also make more income on match days from add on sources e.g the bars and refreshments. It would also have the benefit of improving the club’s cash reserves / cash flow at the start of the season.
With regards to increasing the home support It did not work. The number of home attendees remained (stubbornly) approximately the same. Most of the 2,400 – 2,500 regular supporters purchased the cheaper season cards paying less for EFL match entrance than they had paid in previous seasons. None or very few new fans bought a season card. So the club took in lower gate receipts from home supporters in EFL matches than in previous seasons.
My point is the information provided by the club is so heavily aggregated that it is not possible to see this. This is why I describe the information publicly provided by the club as limited. | | | |
| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 17:19 - Oct 30 with 1643 views | blackdogblue |
Cutting season ticket prices is a catch 22 situation.. if they were say £150 for main stand you would need to generate twice as many sales to get the income back on this seasons season card holders.
Increase in sales on match day on catering & the bars would be more if people decided to use the facilities but let’s not forget 2 things:
1. beer, wines & spirits is hugely taxed by the government and not cheap to buy unless you went to Costco for spirits / bottled beers.. Draught pints do not have a huge margin. Bigger crowds in the Racky & other bars would need more staff to cope with before, half time sales… effectively paying them to do not much during the first half.
2. catering is outsourced and the club will get a percentage I would also presume.. it’s the same as match day dining packages… there is no Head Chef going to markets for cheap fresh produce.
Basically the Russ Green method was a loss leader and if it would have worked then fair play.. entice people in with the hope they become enthralled with the match day experience and way of life going to watch the Dale at home..
Then plan B.. steadily raise prices every year (not a huge hike) over say 3 years..
Unfortunately it didn’t work… targets were not met,.. Club shop ran out of most sizes of items & less said about the football on the pitch the better… | |
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| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 17:43 - Oct 30 with 1595 views | James1980 |
Do you think if the price had just been set at £110 no sliding scale based on non refundable deposits coupled with a decent marketing campaign the 4000 target would have been met? | |
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| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 18:33 - Oct 30 with 1524 views | EllGazzell |
Through one of our German clients, I have learned a lot about the Bundesliga, specifically Fortuna Düsseldorf (client's base).
They are embarking on a groundbreaking trial of making entrance totally free and using the increased advertising revenue, 28,000 > 55,000 (capacity), to match the prior ticket sales and adding more to it on extra sales (merch/food) etc.
https://apnews.com/article/free-tickets-fortuna-duesseldorf-kaiserslautern-bb03e
"The hope is to reconnect Fortuna, which last won a trophy in 1980, with its community and attract a new generation of fans."
It is a community club with a professional board in line with German Football's 50+1 rule (all clubs must be 51% 'fan-led')
https://www.bundesliga.com/en/faq/what-are-the-rules-and-regulations-of-soccer/5
In short:
Under German Football League (DFL) rules, football clubs will not be allowed to play in the Bundesliga (or second division) if outside investors have the greatest say.
In essence, this means that private or commercial investors cannot take over clubs and potentially push through measures that prioritise profit over the wishes of supporters. The ruling simultaneously protects against reckless owners and safeguards the democratic customs of German clubs.
It would be great if a future fan-owned Dale could adopt from German models and a pipe dream to imagine British football ever considering the fans as much as the Germans do. [Post edited 30 Oct 2023 18:35]
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| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 18:41 - Oct 30 with 1499 views | blackdogblue |
Remember our Commercial Director or Marketing Manager was at the time James who is now at Man Utd after Blackburn was it then FC Utd…
There was a huge marketing campaign I recall & at £110 that is a third is it of a Main Stand Season Card now … you know I’ve not been since the first match of last Season at home.. was it Grimsby? When at half time I was off until I bumped into Kel.
That figure is a third not half of above so again now 3x sales to break even…
Whilst I have said…. A great plan if it would have worked but it didn’t… hope Russ is doing well trying to sell Time Shares… same principle..
I do not have the magical answer to our crowd attendance issues.. ohh how I wish I did…
I’m not sure there is one tbh… | |
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| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 18:45 - Oct 30 with 1486 views | blackdogblue |
52,000 is more than 5 times our ground capacity…
Nice thought but I’m not sure Arizona Fried Chicken (if it’s still advertised?) would be up for pumping more money into advertising for more customers… | |
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| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 18:51 - Oct 30 with 1474 views | A_Newby |
I think the “evolution” of a new Dale (or any football team) fan is to start with watching selected matches with POTD tickets. After getting “hooked” then they can be enticed into buying a season card. I do not think new fans generally go straight to buying season cards. Did you James when you started following the Dale or did you buy POTD tickets at the start?
So no, I do not think that with the straight dropping the prices of the season cards to £110 with a “good marketing campaign” would have worked. If anything, it would have made the situation worse as the home gate income would have dropped further as I do not think we would have got any more takers for the season cards other than the Dale regulars. | | | |
| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 19:08 - Oct 30 with 1435 views | EllGazzell |
Oh yeah... I never thought about that...  | |
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