| Picton Monument in Carmarthen 18:18 - Dec 21 with 9484 views | britferry |
Well done to the people of Carmarthen
Monument to Waterloo hero will STAND: Memorial to slaver Thomas Picton who died in 1815 battle will not be removed or renamed after majority of locals vote to keep it amid BLM row
I didn't realise that he is the only Welshman buried in St Paul's Cathedral
More guts than those wishy-washy yellow bellied scummers
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9075579/Black-Lives-Matter-Monument-Wat |  |
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| Picton Monument in Carmarthen on 14:18 - Dec 22 with 1033 views | Highjack |
| Picton Monument in Carmarthen on 14:13 - Dec 22 by Catullus |
Oh he was very brave, possibly to the point of stupidity but, was he a criminal? It's the same argument over again Loh. Do we get to judge 200 year old people by modern standards?
The answer should probably be no because modern standards lack the context to make good choices.
If Picton were born today he might be just as brave (or foolhardy) but he most wouldn't behave like the Picton of Badajoz, Waterloo or the "New World" because he'd be brought up by todays rules.
I wonder what people will make of us in 200 years? Assuming we haven't gone extinct by our own stupidity of course. |
Here’s another question. What people living today will even be remembered in 200 years? |  |
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| Picton Monument in Carmarthen on 14:38 - Dec 22 with 1012 views | Catullus |
| Picton Monument in Carmarthen on 14:18 - Dec 22 by Highjack |
Here’s another question. What people living today will even be remembered in 200 years? |
Who knows? It's what they'll make of the societal rules that'd interest me. What will they make of BLM, ANTIFA, of Trump and Bojo, of the EU.
I'll never know but it'd be interesting, I reckon. | |
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| Picton Monument in Carmarthen on 14:48 - Dec 22 with 1000 views | Highjack |
| Picton Monument in Carmarthen on 14:38 - Dec 22 by Catullus |
Who knows? It's what they'll make of the societal rules that'd interest me. What will they make of BLM, ANTIFA, of Trump and Bojo, of the EU.
I'll never know but it'd be interesting, I reckon. |
They probably won’t give any of those things a second thought. Hopefully we’ll all be wiped out by an asteroid or super volcano by then. | |
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| Picton Monument in Carmarthen on 14:52 - Dec 22 with 994 views | Catullus |
| Picton Monument in Carmarthen on 14:48 - Dec 22 by Highjack |
They probably won’t give any of those things a second thought. Hopefully we’ll all be wiped out by an asteroid or super volcano by then. |
Nah, I reckon because of the pandemic this time period will be much discussed. | |
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| Picton Monument in Carmarthen on 14:56 - Dec 22 with 993 views | Highjack |
| Picton Monument in Carmarthen on 14:52 - Dec 22 by Catullus |
Nah, I reckon because of the pandemic this time period will be much discussed. |
There’ll be several other, worse pandemics in the next 200 years. Especially if antibiotic resistance becomes the norm. We could be saying hello again to Tuberculosis and other nasty things. | |
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| Picton Monument in Carmarthen on 14:59 - Dec 22 with 989 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Picton Monument in Carmarthen on 14:13 - Dec 22 by Catullus |
Oh he was very brave, possibly to the point of stupidity but, was he a criminal? It's the same argument over again Loh. Do we get to judge 200 year old people by modern standards?
The answer should probably be no because modern standards lack the context to make good choices.
If Picton were born today he might be just as brave (or foolhardy) but he most wouldn't behave like the Picton of Badajoz, Waterloo or the "New World" because he'd be brought up by todays rules.
I wonder what people will make of us in 200 years? Assuming we haven't gone extinct by our own stupidity of course. |
He was judged and found monstrous by the standards of the time let alone now. | | | |
| Picton Monument in Carmarthen on 15:21 - Dec 22 with 966 views | Highjack |
| Picton Monument in Carmarthen on 14:59 - Dec 22 by londonlisa2001 |
He was judged and found monstrous by the standards of the time let alone now. |
Can’t a guy just do a little bit of torture and human trafficking anymore? | |
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| Picton Monument in Carmarthen on 15:25 - Dec 22 with 964 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Picton Monument in Carmarthen on 15:21 - Dec 22 by Highjack |
Can’t a guy just do a little bit of torture and human trafficking anymore? |
Well seemingly he can, just as long as he’s doing it to little black girls and is Welsh... | | | |
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| Picton Monument in Carmarthen on 15:46 - Dec 22 with 932 views | Lohengrin |
| Picton Monument in Carmarthen on 15:25 - Dec 22 by londonlisa2001 |
Well seemingly he can, just as long as he’s doing it to little black girls and is Welsh... |
And what exactly did he do? Overruled the magistrates who wanted the girl flogged for her role in a burglary that left the victim dead and instead awarded company punishment, in this instance picketing. The same punishment routinely awarded drummer boys caught pinching grog.
We’ve been over this ground several times on here now and nobody’s position is going to change one iota. To me and those like me Picton will always be an inspirational figure, to you perhaps, and those like you, not so much.
C’est la guerre...
PS: How’s the lockdown going up there? |  |
| An idea isn't responsible for those who believe in it. |
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| Picton Monument in Carmarthen on 15:48 - Dec 22 with 931 views | Boundy |
| Picton Monument in Carmarthen on 14:59 - Dec 22 by londonlisa2001 |
He was judged and found monstrous by the standards of the time let alone now. |
Was the term " monstrous" your definition of the description used at the time to describe his actions? Picton later had the conviction overturned due to torture being acceptable at the time , note "at the time " Also at the time , the general public being well aware of Pictons conduct still found his actions worthy of not one but three monuments , countless streets, pubic houses etc all named after him . His actions as a Governor cannot be excused but context is everything would you not agree. | |
| "In a free society, the State is the servant of the people—not the master." |
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| Picton Monument in Carmarthen on 16:02 - Dec 22 with 923 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Picton Monument in Carmarthen on 15:46 - Dec 22 by Lohengrin |
And what exactly did he do? Overruled the magistrates who wanted the girl flogged for her role in a burglary that left the victim dead and instead awarded company punishment, in this instance picketing. The same punishment routinely awarded drummer boys caught pinching grog.
We’ve been over this ground several times on here now and nobody’s position is going to change one iota. To me and those like me Picton will always be an inspirational figure, to you perhaps, and those like you, not so much.
C’est la guerre...
PS: How’s the lockdown going up there? |
“ instead awarded company punishment, in this instance picketing”.
It’s incredible how that sounds quite tame. What it amounted to, of course, was stringing a young girl up by one arm and lowering her entire weight on to one bare foot on top of a spike.
Lovely.
Lockdown here hasn’t changed much really. Everything is shut, but I wasn’t visiting Primark Oxford Oxford Street anyway, so no real difference. Only irritant is them shutting the hairdressers again when I had an appointment tomorrow.
Christmas will be odd, but I’ve written it off in my mind. Celebrate when all this has ended instead. | | | |
| Picton Monument in Carmarthen on 16:12 - Dec 22 with 912 views | Lohengrin |
| Picton Monument in Carmarthen on 16:02 - Dec 22 by londonlisa2001 |
“ instead awarded company punishment, in this instance picketing”.
It’s incredible how that sounds quite tame. What it amounted to, of course, was stringing a young girl up by one arm and lowering her entire weight on to one bare foot on top of a spike.
Lovely.
Lockdown here hasn’t changed much really. Everything is shut, but I wasn’t visiting Primark Oxford Oxford Street anyway, so no real difference. Only irritant is them shutting the hairdressers again when I had an appointment tomorrow.
Christmas will be odd, but I’ve written it off in my mind. Celebrate when all this has ended instead. |
Not lovely at all, no, but this is the eighteenth century we’re talking about...
Stay safe up there, Lis. We’ve just written it off too. I’m working right across Christmas, twelve hours on Christmas Day itself; I’ve just put it out of my mind.
Off to Venice as soon as it’s sensible to travel though, something to look forward to at least. | |
| An idea isn't responsible for those who believe in it. |
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| Picton Monument in Carmarthen on 16:15 - Dec 22 with 910 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Picton Monument in Carmarthen on 15:48 - Dec 22 by Boundy |
Was the term " monstrous" your definition of the description used at the time to describe his actions? Picton later had the conviction overturned due to torture being acceptable at the time , note "at the time " Also at the time , the general public being well aware of Pictons conduct still found his actions worthy of not one but three monuments , countless streets, pubic houses etc all named after him . His actions as a Governor cannot be excused but context is everything would you not agree. |
Yes, monstrous was my word. Repugnant was the word used at the time.
Actually to say they overturned it, though technically accurate, doesn’t really give the story.
Torture wasn’t acceptable at the time in England, it was allowed under Spanish law which Picton argued should be applied. The jury accepted that on appeal, but recommended that he instead be tried on a different charge saying that he knew it what he did was repugnant in England and that he must have known that it was unacceptable for him to do what he did irrespective of the Spanish law.
This was, incidentally, in addition to him being tried by Privy Council of charges of excessive cruelty, summary execution without following due process and severity in his treatment of slaves. Again, his arguments were technicalities about whether such things were allowed rather than refuting them.
I don’t imagine the general public knew anything at all about his conduct. Not that it’s much of a barometer. A cursory glance at the internet would demonstrate the horror of his conduct and the people of Carmarthen don’t appear to give too much of a sh*t about it. | | | |
| Picton Monument in Carmarthen on 16:19 - Dec 22 with 906 views | Lohengrin |
| Picton Monument in Carmarthen on 16:15 - Dec 22 by londonlisa2001 |
Yes, monstrous was my word. Repugnant was the word used at the time.
Actually to say they overturned it, though technically accurate, doesn’t really give the story.
Torture wasn’t acceptable at the time in England, it was allowed under Spanish law which Picton argued should be applied. The jury accepted that on appeal, but recommended that he instead be tried on a different charge saying that he knew it what he did was repugnant in England and that he must have known that it was unacceptable for him to do what he did irrespective of the Spanish law.
This was, incidentally, in addition to him being tried by Privy Council of charges of excessive cruelty, summary execution without following due process and severity in his treatment of slaves. Again, his arguments were technicalities about whether such things were allowed rather than refuting them.
I don’t imagine the general public knew anything at all about his conduct. Not that it’s much of a barometer. A cursory glance at the internet would demonstrate the horror of his conduct and the people of Carmarthen don’t appear to give too much of a sh*t about it. |
Whig propaganda.
If you want the true measure of the man read about his conduct at Ciudad Rodrigo. | |
| An idea isn't responsible for those who believe in it. |
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| Picton Monument in Carmarthen on 16:22 - Dec 22 with 904 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Picton Monument in Carmarthen on 16:12 - Dec 22 by Lohengrin |
Not lovely at all, no, but this is the eighteenth century we’re talking about...
Stay safe up there, Lis. We’ve just written it off too. I’m working right across Christmas, twelve hours on Christmas Day itself; I’ve just put it out of my mind.
Off to Venice as soon as it’s sensible to travel though, something to look forward to at least. |
19th. It wasn’t as long ago as people imagine. Come on Loh. You know the history. You know damn well he was regarded as a complete psycho even then. Whether or not that changes your view on his military exploits is a different matter, but there’s no doubt as to his utter lack of any shred of morality or basic human decency.
Venice sounds lovely. I can’t wait just to go anywhere at all to be honest. The furthest I’ve been this year is Sussex. | | | |
| Picton Monument in Carmarthen on 16:29 - Dec 22 with 899 views | Lohengrin |
| Picton Monument in Carmarthen on 16:22 - Dec 22 by londonlisa2001 |
19th. It wasn’t as long ago as people imagine. Come on Loh. You know the history. You know damn well he was regarded as a complete psycho even then. Whether or not that changes your view on his military exploits is a different matter, but there’s no doubt as to his utter lack of any shred of morality or basic human decency.
Venice sounds lovely. I can’t wait just to go anywhere at all to be honest. The furthest I’ve been this year is Sussex. |
18th/19th. He was on post in the Caribbean from 1797 to 1803. Let’s split the difference, we’re both right!  | |
| An idea isn't responsible for those who believe in it. |
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| Picton Monument in Carmarthen on 17:10 - Dec 22 with 879 views | Treforys_Jack |
Local people have decided, thats good enough for me. |  | | |
| Picton Monument in Carmarthen on 17:25 - Dec 22 with 867 views | controversial_jack |
| Picton Monument in Carmarthen on 17:10 - Dec 22 by Treforys_Jack |
Local people have decided, thats good enough for me. |
It's a national issue | | | |
| Picton Monument in Carmarthen on 17:33 - Dec 22 with 861 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Picton Monument in Carmarthen on 17:10 - Dec 22 by Treforys_Jack |
Local people have decided, thats good enough for me. |
In which case you’d presumably have no argument if local Londoners decided to pull down a statue of Churchill in London? | | | |
| Picton Monument in Carmarthen on 18:01 - Dec 22 with 847 views | Catullus |
| Picton Monument in Carmarthen on 16:15 - Dec 22 by londonlisa2001 |
Yes, monstrous was my word. Repugnant was the word used at the time.
Actually to say they overturned it, though technically accurate, doesn’t really give the story.
Torture wasn’t acceptable at the time in England, it was allowed under Spanish law which Picton argued should be applied. The jury accepted that on appeal, but recommended that he instead be tried on a different charge saying that he knew it what he did was repugnant in England and that he must have known that it was unacceptable for him to do what he did irrespective of the Spanish law.
This was, incidentally, in addition to him being tried by Privy Council of charges of excessive cruelty, summary execution without following due process and severity in his treatment of slaves. Again, his arguments were technicalities about whether such things were allowed rather than refuting them.
I don’t imagine the general public knew anything at all about his conduct. Not that it’s much of a barometer. A cursory glance at the internet would demonstrate the horror of his conduct and the people of Carmarthen don’t appear to give too much of a sh*t about it. |
A cursory glance at the internet? Well that would be modern people applying their values then, not how people of his own time judged him.
Back in the 1800's (well until 1857) transportation was still carried out for stealing and you didn't have to do much,
https://www.19crimes.com/the-19-crimes
Besides which, repugnant is hardly close to monstrous. Picton was only tried on one charge, of unlawfully inflciting torture to extract a confession and when you say she was made to stand on a spike, but wasn't it to stand on a flat headed wooden peg for one hour, Vlad the impaler it is not, very painful yes but surely not as bad as a flogging?
A flogging, if they used the cat o 9 tails, would have ripped her back to shreds, it broke people and it was often a cause of death if infection set in. Picketing seems tame to me, by comparison.
https://museum.wales/collections/online/object/4adfdd41-6370-36bf-a907-c74f5ad7d | |
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| Picton Monument in Carmarthen on 18:43 - Dec 22 with 830 views | Highjack |
Morecambe and Wise made a misogynistic joke about a mother in law in their 1967 Christmas special so they should be torn down too. | |
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| Picton Monument in Carmarthen on 18:48 - Dec 22 with 825 views | FieryJack |
| Picton Monument in Carmarthen on 18:43 - Dec 22 by Highjack |
Morecambe and Wise made a misogynistic joke about a mother in law in their 1967 Christmas special so they should be torn down too. |
A cheap, nonsensical comparison, worthy of the Daily Mail's letters page. |  | | |
| Picton Monument in Carmarthen on 18:50 - Dec 22 with 822 views | Highjack |
| Picton Monument in Carmarthen on 18:48 - Dec 22 by FieryJack |
A cheap, nonsensical comparison, worthy of the Daily Mail's letters page. |
Freddie Mercury body shamed fat bottomed girls too. | |
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| Picton Monument in Carmarthen on 18:57 - Dec 22 with 819 views | FieryJack |
| Picton Monument in Carmarthen on 18:50 - Dec 22 by Highjack |
Freddie Mercury body shamed fat bottomed girls too. |
Did he?
Has he got a statue? | | | |
| Picton Monument in Carmarthen on 19:02 - Dec 22 with 812 views | Andy1300 |
| Picton Monument in Carmarthen on 18:57 - Dec 22 by FieryJack |
Did he?
Has he got a statue? |
There was a tribute to him in the shopping centre in Feltham when I lived up that way, it got removed though, there’s now just a star on the pavement |  |
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