| Anton Ferdinand Documentary 20:40 - Sep 10 with 23912 views | Noelmc |
This could be interesting.
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| Anton Ferdinand Documentary on 10:47 - Dec 1 with 2145 views | daveB |
| Anton Ferdinand Documentary on 10:24 - Dec 1 by joe90 |
All valid points.
I think there's a more general point about how clubs/institutions in football always seek to make big gestures but never really do what actually counts, which goes back to what Les has said.
As mentioned in my previous point, there's bigger issue within football. It's not simply about dealing with overt racism, it's the toxic culture as a whole as exemplified in the exchange between Anton and Terry.
I think the Forever R's Club should be for players who have had some significant impact on the club/fans and that could be having played a certain number of games, captained the side, played during a 'successful' campaign, or simply a fan favourite. Otherwise it just becomes meaningless. I don't think it's role is to be an aid or a tool to show solidarity.
As Anton was saying in the documentary, even coming forward and speaking about it comes with stigma. The way to deal with that is for the authorities within the game to properly punish the perpetrators and for victims not have to be subjected to well meaning gestures of support that more about the person/institutions than the victim.
As Anton said, it wasn't what Terry said that caused all the damage, it was the response to it.
He shouldn't have to make a documentary about his experience. We should be at point where racism is just dealt with without a song and dance. The response should be normalised and consistent. Action followed by consequence, and eventually players will get it.
A side note, I think Anton was clearly effected by the death of his mother and it seemed to diffuse the documentary a bit, there's clearly a lot going on in his head that he can't articulate. |
if they only put in players who had made a massive impact on the pitch then the forever r's club would only have about 25 members. Anton should be as welcome in that club as any other player who played for us |  | | |
| Anton Ferdinand Documentary on 10:47 - Dec 1 with 2145 views | DWQPR |
| Anton Ferdinand Documentary on 10:35 - Dec 1 by Rangers67 |
Although I agree that image is quite disturbing without being able to speak to the person and ask for his reasons for wearing that we can debate it all day long and not get an answer. The point is that was 1967 when people should have known better than to wear that get up but this is incident was 2011 when there is absolutely no excuse for Terry,s behaviour. It sounds like your friend from SW6 is clutching at straws. The problem is a societal one that needs fixing from the top down with the implementation of more people of varying ethnic and gender background being in positions of power along with education in the schools.
This particular incident has been distilled because it involved the England captain not because on the other side there was Anton Ferdinand and until that changes society has a problem. |
Wasn’t that person dressing up meant to be depicting the grim reaper rather than a member of the KKK? |  |
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| Anton Ferdinand Documentary on 10:49 - Dec 1 with 2137 views | MedwayR |
| Anton Ferdinand Documentary on 10:35 - Dec 1 by Rangers67 |
Although I agree that image is quite disturbing without being able to speak to the person and ask for his reasons for wearing that we can debate it all day long and not get an answer. The point is that was 1967 when people should have known better than to wear that get up but this is incident was 2011 when there is absolutely no excuse for Terry,s behaviour. It sounds like your friend from SW6 is clutching at straws. The problem is a societal one that needs fixing from the top down with the implementation of more people of varying ethnic and gender background being in positions of power along with education in the schools.
This particular incident has been distilled because it involved the England captain not because on the other side there was Anton Ferdinand and until that changes society has a problem. |
https://www.newsweek.com/klan-reborn-spains-holy-week-robes-and-pointed-hats-loo
Having seen that picture in the past I'm pretty sure it was just a religious outfit to try to fit with the occasion of a parade. |  |
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| Anton Ferdinand Documentary on 10:50 - Dec 1 with 2129 views | daveB |
| Anton Ferdinand Documentary on 10:26 - Dec 1 by 18StoneOfHoop |
Av you got a link to the Sky BBC doc coverage, Dave? [Post edited 1 Dec 2020 10:36]
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I've not seen it online, was on at about 5 past 9 this morning so imagine it will be on a similar time every hour until something else happens | | | |
| Anton Ferdinand Documentary on 10:50 - Dec 1 with 2130 views | MedwayR |
| Anton Ferdinand Documentary on 10:21 - Dec 1 by daveB |
It was heavily featured on Sky Sports News this morning with clips from the documentary and a response from the FA |
That's good, I expected little more than a shrug of the shoulders from the media. | |
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| Anton Ferdinand Documentary on 10:58 - Dec 1 with 2109 views | markqpr |
| Anton Ferdinand Documentary on 09:13 - Dec 1 by BrianMcCarthy |
"You would also think the club is better at supporting a player in that situation 9 years on (I think we walked off in an under 23s overseas game, correct me if I'm wrong)."
I found this to be another interesting aspect of the programme - no reaction from either of the teams involved.
No statement from Chelsea as to how they treated the incident where they Captain was suspended for racial abuse and no tackling of their huge catalogue of racist incidents.
And no statement from Rangers either. In our case, there is no-one in a position of power at the club who was there in 2011, but it was strange that the programme didn't seek a statement anyway which would have allowed us to highlight how we are the polar opposite of Chelsea when it comes to inclusion and equality.
Maybe it was just a question of editing as they only had an hour to tell what was really a story of Ferdinand's personal journey but if nothing else I would have thought that Anton having a cousin now in a position of power at Rangers was an interesting fact. |
Amit Bhatia was Vice Chairman at the time and is Chairman now.
Surely he's a person who was in a position of power at the time who is here now.
Don't blame him for not wanting to get involved but it's exactly that type of silence that is perceived as indifference and therefore can do more damage unintentionally.
There must be reasons why such a diverse Board of Directors have been silent on the subject, albeit the usual PR controlled press releases that lack any real resonance due to them being blanket statements.
Instead of Les being the constant spokesman for the club on such matters, a joint personal statement could carry more weight, show more strength from unity and therefore do more good. Particularly having one of them on camera shoulder to shoulder with Les promoting that strength in diversity and unity.
Anyway, Terry's a c*nt. End off. |  | | |
| Anton Ferdinand Documentary on 11:03 - Dec 1 with 2092 views | joe90 |
| Anton Ferdinand Documentary on 10:47 - Dec 1 by daveB |
if they only put in players who had made a massive impact on the pitch then the forever r's club would only have about 25 members. Anton should be as welcome in that club as any other player who played for us |
I never said massive, I said significant and gave some examples. But I think you miss my point entirely. |  | | |
| Anton Ferdinand Documentary on 11:03 - Dec 1 with 2089 views | BrianMcCarthy |
I suspect they weren't asked, as there was no statement from Chelsea either.
Edit - anyway apologies for the digression. [Post edited 1 Dec 2020 11:08]
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| Anton Ferdinand Documentary on 11:06 - Dec 1 with 2074 views | BrianMcCarthy |
"The Forever R's Club - QPR's ex-players association - celebrates and embraces former Rangers players by engaging with them on a regular basis."
From the FB page for Forever R's.
Not just about on-pitch performance, clearly. | |
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| Anton Ferdinand Documentary on 11:07 - Dec 1 with 2062 views | daveB |
| Anton Ferdinand Documentary on 11:03 - Dec 1 by joe90 |
I never said massive, I said significant and gave some examples. But I think you miss my point entirely. |
That's not what the forever r's is though, the likes of Zesh Rehmann and Peter Ramage are in it as well more for the contribution they made off the pitch. | | | |
| Anton Ferdinand Documentary on 11:08 - Dec 1 with 2053 views | terryb |
I think Antti has asked a very good question in "did we, as supporters, show our backing for Anton Ferdinand"?
I'm only going from memory & i would say that for a period we showed complete solidarity, but that decreased after the FA Cup game in January. Once it bacame clear that Ferdinand wasn't the same player as his performances prior to his abuse.
Perhaps it was because our league position was becoming worse with every match, but he became subject to criticism & every mistake was pointed out. This would have been at a time when he most needed us! This isn't meant to be having a go at Rangers fans as this is a results business & little of us knew what effect abuse can have on an individual.
However, upto the announcement that this documentary was to be shown, you could read postings about how crap he was for us & mentioning him in the same breath as Bosingwa etc.
I do question as to why Neil Warnock mentioned to Anton in their conversation that he lost concerntratuion on the pitch after the C****** match but didn't mention it to him at the time. It was obvious to me that he had been badly affected & I'm sure it was to many of you as well.
As far as being a Forever R, I for one, would give him a standing ovation. | | | |
| Anton Ferdinand Documentary on 11:10 - Dec 1 with 2049 views | francisbowles |
| Anton Ferdinand Documentary on 10:29 - Dec 1 by Maggsinho |
Brian is referring to Les - Anton and Rio's cousin. That was Max Ferdinand n the documentary. |
Cheers mate. I had completely forgotten that Les was their cousin. Haven't given a a thought for years. | | | |
| Anton Ferdinand Documentary on 11:14 - Dec 1 with 2030 views | terryb |
| Anton Ferdinand Documentary on 10:50 - Dec 1 by daveB |
I've not seen it online, was on at about 5 past 9 this morning so imagine it will be on a similar time every hour until something else happens |
I put Sky Sports News on just after 10.00pm last night to check the West Ham score & they were already showing clips from the documentary. [Post edited 1 Dec 2020 11:29]
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| Anton Ferdinand Documentary on 11:27 - Dec 1 with 1991 views | joe90 |
| Anton Ferdinand Documentary on 11:07 - Dec 1 by daveB |
That's not what the forever r's is though, the likes of Zesh Rehmann and Peter Ramage are in it as well more for the contribution they made off the pitch. |
Seems like people think he should be put in, but I still think it just recycling the whole big gesture thing which in my opinion is kinda one of the problems mentioned in the programme. Personally, I don't think it's helpful to use the Forever R's Club for this. Is it to make ourselves feel better? Anyway, I'm clearly in the minority I'll say no more. | | | |
| Anton Ferdinand Documentary on 11:38 - Dec 1 with 1959 views | DejR_vu |
| Anton Ferdinand Documentary on 10:18 - Dec 1 by Antti_Heinola |
Well, maybe we would. Maybe had that not had such a big impact on him he would have gone on to have a better career with us.
But I'm beyond arguing about Forever Rs now. If some fans still don't get it, they never will.
I agree with everything said on here about Terry, but that's nothing new and for me that wasn't the point of the programme. We shouldn't be coming out of this talking about Terry. It's about the impact racism has on people, not just footballers, but people. And this is not 'football's' problem solely. It is society. Racism doesn't exist just on terraces or on social media. It is everywhere and if anything social media is proving it is more widespread than we realised 10 or 15 years ago. If anything, it has seemed to become more acceptable than it was then.
The point of the programme for me was about how a victim of racial abuse was made to feel like he was in the wrong, that he had to prove something. Even on here, one poster criticised him for not speaking out. I find that flabbergasting. How on earth can we know what it was like to be Anton Ferdinand during that time? Or even now? This was the story last night - not Terry's character, but Anton's story, the long term effects on his life on both him and his family. Even without 'speaking out' at the time he got awful abuse for 'playing the race card' at the time. Easy to be brave when it's not you in the firing line. |
Well, that's a bit naughty Antti.
It wasn't a criticism, it was an observation, a point of view.
I said that no one comes out with huge credit, but AF deserves some credit for speaking up now, but that, IMO, it would have had a bigger impact if he had done so at the time. Rio himself said that most people were telling them not to say anything, bar a few friends and their parents, their mother in particular. Even you would need to concede that AF's own mother was better placed to make a judgement than you are. So, it's strange that you have chosen to interpret my post in the way that you have chosen to interpret it.
For the avoidance of doubt, I've copied my full post below:
I don't think anyone really comes out of that with a huge amount of credit:
- The legal system for facilitating a, frankly, embarrassing verdict;
- The football authorities for making a statement by stripping Terry of the England captaincy but not going far enough to really tackle the issue head on;
- Terry, obviously;
- And, really, the Ferdinands for not making a stand at the time. I think Anton deserves some credit for speaking up now but, arguably, it's not going to have anywhere near the same impact now as it could have done then. He's a retired journeyman footballer, Terry's a retired England Captain. It may well be forgotten in a few days time. Nine years ago, he was the England captain, Ferdinand was a Premier League defender and brother of the other England centre back playing for one of the biggest clubs in the world. That said, I appreciate it could have made life very difficult for them both, that they both had a lot to lose, and no one should be expected to be a martyr. On the other hand, maybe it's come at the right time, given everything else that has happened this year to shine a light on the issue | |
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| Anton Ferdinand Documentary on 11:43 - Dec 1 with 1944 views | markqpr |
| Anton Ferdinand Documentary on 11:03 - Dec 1 by BrianMcCarthy |
I suspect they weren't asked, as there was no statement from Chelsea either.
Edit - anyway apologies for the digression. [Post edited 1 Dec 2020 11:08]
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Probably not, though Chelsea's silence is a continuation from the time.
My comments are more for the future, not on this isolated instance, as the program highlighted with the recent Leeds goal keeper case, there is still a lot more work to be done in this area and also where we could improve ourselves.
I feel we lead the way with actual diversity across our club and that the club is actually doing a lot to bring about change so the board taking more credit for it and being more visible could only help with that.
Quietly getting on with it is a very strong strategy as well though and I can only applaud the club massively for all it's done so far.
This saga and the resulting 'not guilty' verdict though has somehow emboldened the racists who have done more to advance their evil bullsh!t than anyone in the game has done to suppress it and educate across the last nine years, so within the game there is still a long, long way to go.
In all it was actually a very thought provoking and eye opening program. | | | |
| Anton Ferdinand Documentary on 12:01 - Dec 1 with 1886 views | Rangers67 |
| Anton Ferdinand Documentary on 11:27 - Dec 1 by joe90 |
Seems like people think he should be put in, but I still think it just recycling the whole big gesture thing which in my opinion is kinda one of the problems mentioned in the programme. Personally, I don't think it's helpful to use the Forever R's Club for this. Is it to make ourselves feel better? Anyway, I'm clearly in the minority I'll say no more. |
Joe, my original suggestion wasn,t about making us feel better , it was to show a former player we appreciate his time here with us and also to show support and I think we should show support in a big way by shouting it from the roof tops and getting it out there as much as possible to hopefully send a positive message about a horribly negative subject. As a white man I cannot begin to appreciate what he has gone through but that is all the more reason for us to be united in our message as a group of fans and a club that this won,t be tolerated and people like Terry aren,t welcome. If the FA and Prem league etc aren,t going to do it then we should. | | | |
| Anton Ferdinand Documentary on 12:05 - Dec 1 with 1876 views | daveB |
| Anton Ferdinand Documentary on 11:27 - Dec 1 by joe90 |
Seems like people think he should be put in, but I still think it just recycling the whole big gesture thing which in my opinion is kinda one of the problems mentioned in the programme. Personally, I don't think it's helpful to use the Forever R's Club for this. Is it to make ourselves feel better? Anyway, I'm clearly in the minority I'll say no more. |
I can see what you mean, i wouldn't rush him in on the back of this as you say that looks like tokenism but have no problem with him eventually going in | | | |
| Anton Ferdinand Documentary on 12:19 - Dec 1 with 1829 views | joe90 |
| Anton Ferdinand Documentary on 10:18 - Dec 1 by Antti_Heinola |
Well, maybe we would. Maybe had that not had such a big impact on him he would have gone on to have a better career with us.
But I'm beyond arguing about Forever Rs now. If some fans still don't get it, they never will.
I agree with everything said on here about Terry, but that's nothing new and for me that wasn't the point of the programme. We shouldn't be coming out of this talking about Terry. It's about the impact racism has on people, not just footballers, but people. And this is not 'football's' problem solely. It is society. Racism doesn't exist just on terraces or on social media. It is everywhere and if anything social media is proving it is more widespread than we realised 10 or 15 years ago. If anything, it has seemed to become more acceptable than it was then.
The point of the programme for me was about how a victim of racial abuse was made to feel like he was in the wrong, that he had to prove something. Even on here, one poster criticised him for not speaking out. I find that flabbergasting. How on earth can we know what it was like to be Anton Ferdinand during that time? Or even now? This was the story last night - not Terry's character, but Anton's story, the long term effects on his life on both him and his family. Even without 'speaking out' at the time he got awful abuse for 'playing the race card' at the time. Easy to be brave when it's not you in the firing line. |
My point wasn't to have a granular debate about the criteria for the Forever R's Club, but to highlight the point that mentioning it is playing into the relentless circus of gestures that football is full of. What we need is meaningful change - for example, the club could review it policies on dealing with racial abuse taking into consideration Antons case and implement change based on it.
I agree with you about how he was made to feel wrong, and it was the institutions that were there to protect him and uphold the rules that did it.
The point about racism being societies problem is valid and one I've heard before but doesn't further the conversation and becomes rather nebulous especially when there's tangible things things that can be done such tackling institutional problems.
I don't think racism is more acceptable, it just more visible again, because certain institutions don't want to deal with it.
I agree with you that the show was about the impact the incident had on Anton, but we mustn't forget that it wasn't what Terry said, but how it was dealt with that had the lasting impact and that's where the lessons should be learnt. | | | |
| Anton Ferdinand Documentary on 12:26 - Dec 1 with 1804 views | rrrspricey |
There were two shocking things for me in last night’s programme
1: Rather ironically, the level of racist abuse AF suffered as a result of the charges brought against the racist cụnt, presumably most of the scum fans. WTF is wrong with people?
2: The lack of involvement by Kick It Out. An FA run organisation to rid football of this scourge who we unable to reach out to AF because they could be seen as impeding the FA “investigation”…you couldn’t make it up.
As others have said the four match ban is beyond a joke. How can anyone found guilty of hurling racist abuse at someone at work, by their work’s governing body not lose their job?
Once again the FA have showed themselves as the inept bunch of incompetents we thought they were, it’s disgraceful . If they’d stamped it out by banning Terry for life it may have nipped it in the bud, instead it’s still happening 8 — 9 years later as demonstrated by the poor Spuds woman who suffer monkey noises made by a Sheff Utd player who again only received a 5 match ban.
The only way to stop this is to start treating these people as what they are, criminals. Maybe then these bigots will think twice before they open their uneducated, ignorant mouths. |  | | |
| Anton Ferdinand Documentary on 12:35 - Dec 1 with 1762 views | robith |
| Anton Ferdinand Documentary on 11:08 - Dec 1 by terryb |
I think Antti has asked a very good question in "did we, as supporters, show our backing for Anton Ferdinand"?
I'm only going from memory & i would say that for a period we showed complete solidarity, but that decreased after the FA Cup game in January. Once it bacame clear that Ferdinand wasn't the same player as his performances prior to his abuse.
Perhaps it was because our league position was becoming worse with every match, but he became subject to criticism & every mistake was pointed out. This would have been at a time when he most needed us! This isn't meant to be having a go at Rangers fans as this is a results business & little of us knew what effect abuse can have on an individual.
However, upto the announcement that this documentary was to be shown, you could read postings about how crap he was for us & mentioning him in the same breath as Bosingwa etc.
I do question as to why Neil Warnock mentioned to Anton in their conversation that he lost concerntratuion on the pitch after the C****** match but didn't mention it to him at the time. It was obvious to me that he had been badly affected & I'm sure it was to many of you as well.
As far as being a Forever R, I for one, would give him a standing ovation. |
I have a very distinct and sinking memory of a Man Utd game after Anton had gone out on loan with the crowd singing "Rio Ferdinand, your brother is shit" |  | | |
| Anton Ferdinand Documentary on 12:41 - Dec 1 with 1746 views | Rangers67 |
| Anton Ferdinand Documentary on 12:19 - Dec 1 by joe90 |
My point wasn't to have a granular debate about the criteria for the Forever R's Club, but to highlight the point that mentioning it is playing into the relentless circus of gestures that football is full of. What we need is meaningful change - for example, the club could review it policies on dealing with racial abuse taking into consideration Antons case and implement change based on it.
I agree with you about how he was made to feel wrong, and it was the institutions that were there to protect him and uphold the rules that did it.
The point about racism being societies problem is valid and one I've heard before but doesn't further the conversation and becomes rather nebulous especially when there's tangible things things that can be done such tackling institutional problems.
I don't think racism is more acceptable, it just more visible again, because certain institutions don't want to deal with it.
I agree with you that the show was about the impact the incident had on Anton, but we mustn't forget that it wasn't what Terry said, but how it was dealt with that had the lasting impact and that's where the lessons should be learnt. |
Joe, you make some good points but with respect I disagree with you on one point, it is what John Terry said that is the problem, everything else afterwards is a prime example of how not to deal properly with a problem. If Terry had not said those things then we wouldn,t be having this debate about this particular incident. The cretin is quite happy to hide behind the veneer of a court case where there wasn,t quite enough evidence to convict him . The root cause of this is Terry not what happened afterwards. | | | |
| Anton Ferdinand Documentary on 13:03 - Dec 1 with 1703 views | Juzzie |
I too was shocked and the sheer level of tweets he was getting from people. Is there complete anonymity for people meaning they are effectively immune from prosecution themselves and can just say what they like free from consequence?
if JT can be taken to Court based on a member(s) of the public complaining then surely there is an ability to prosecute tweeter remarks?
You're not going to be able to do all of them but even if some are prosecuted and it's made publicly aware then people may then keep their vile thoughts to themselves. |  | | |
| Anton Ferdinand Documentary on 13:12 - Dec 1 with 1672 views | Antti_Heinola |
| Anton Ferdinand Documentary on 11:38 - Dec 1 by DejR_vu |
Well, that's a bit naughty Antti.
It wasn't a criticism, it was an observation, a point of view.
I said that no one comes out with huge credit, but AF deserves some credit for speaking up now, but that, IMO, it would have had a bigger impact if he had done so at the time. Rio himself said that most people were telling them not to say anything, bar a few friends and their parents, their mother in particular. Even you would need to concede that AF's own mother was better placed to make a judgement than you are. So, it's strange that you have chosen to interpret my post in the way that you have chosen to interpret it.
For the avoidance of doubt, I've copied my full post below:
I don't think anyone really comes out of that with a huge amount of credit:
- The legal system for facilitating a, frankly, embarrassing verdict;
- The football authorities for making a statement by stripping Terry of the England captaincy but not going far enough to really tackle the issue head on;
- Terry, obviously;
- And, really, the Ferdinands for not making a stand at the time. I think Anton deserves some credit for speaking up now but, arguably, it's not going to have anywhere near the same impact now as it could have done then. He's a retired journeyman footballer, Terry's a retired England Captain. It may well be forgotten in a few days time. Nine years ago, he was the England captain, Ferdinand was a Premier League defender and brother of the other England centre back playing for one of the biggest clubs in the world. That said, I appreciate it could have made life very difficult for them both, that they both had a lot to lose, and no one should be expected to be a martyr. On the other hand, maybe it's come at the right time, given everything else that has happened this year to shine a light on the issue |
Apologies if I misinterpreted. I read your post quite clearly, but the line that starts it is 'no one comes out of this with huge credit' and in a list of bullet points of these people not coming out with huge credit, are the institutions, Terry, and... Anton Ferdinand.
Now of course you explained what you meant and so on, and you've been clearer now, so let's leave it there, but at best I felt it was badly set out. I didn't say whether Anton was right or wrong not to speak out - that was his decison and it was his right to do what he thought best - but he doesn't deserve to be judged on it. |  |
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| Anton Ferdinand Documentary on 13:43 - Dec 1 with 1582 views | JamesB1979 |
| Anton Ferdinand Documentary on 12:26 - Dec 1 by rrrspricey |
There were two shocking things for me in last night’s programme
1: Rather ironically, the level of racist abuse AF suffered as a result of the charges brought against the racist cụnt, presumably most of the scum fans. WTF is wrong with people?
2: The lack of involvement by Kick It Out. An FA run organisation to rid football of this scourge who we unable to reach out to AF because they could be seen as impeding the FA “investigation”…you couldn’t make it up.
As others have said the four match ban is beyond a joke. How can anyone found guilty of hurling racist abuse at someone at work, by their work’s governing body not lose their job?
Once again the FA have showed themselves as the inept bunch of incompetents we thought they were, it’s disgraceful . If they’d stamped it out by banning Terry for life it may have nipped it in the bud, instead it’s still happening 8 — 9 years later as demonstrated by the poor Spuds woman who suffer monkey noises made by a Sheff Utd player who again only received a 5 match ban.
The only way to stop this is to start treating these people as what they are, criminals. Maybe then these bigots will think twice before they open their uneducated, ignorant mouths. |
Agree on those two points but I’d also add that the “interrogation” of Terry by that woman from the FA was an absolute disgrace. Name and shame these people. | | | |
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