| Dismantling Nationalist Bullshit: 19:47 - Dec 8 with 6752 views | Shaky |
The double life of Trumpian nationalism
By Edward Luce
FT, December 7, 2018
A pig is still a pig no matter how much lipstick you apply. The same goes for the law of the jungle with a diplomatic philosophy smeared on.
Mike Pompeo, the US secretary of state, is the latest of President Donald Trump’s officials to try. Other countries should adopt their own versions of Mr Trump’s America First approach, he argued this week. Anything that dilutes national sovereignty, such as treaties or global bodies, was a bad thing.
“Our mission is to reassert our sovereignty,” Mr Pompeo said in Brussels. “We want our friends to help us and to exert their sovereignty as well.”
Mr Pompeo’s pitfall was not his choice of venue – though no city than Brussels puts more faith in the multilateralism he was there to attack. Nor was it his lack of diplomacy – though describing Brexit as a “wake-up call” for taking back control was unlikely to endear him to a Brussels audience.
Mr Pompeo’s failing was that he tried to pull off the impossible. His task was to convince America’s allies that a new global liberal order would arise from the spread of America First imitations. The west should fear the rise of China and Russia, Mr Pompeo said. Yet each should nevertheless pursue their narrow self-interest.
The contradiction demands unravelling. There would be little point in Mr Pompeo – or Mr Trump – making the nationalist case in Moscow, Beijing or Pyongyang, for example. Their rulers already agree wholeheartedly. These are the countries that pose the biggest threats to the global order, according to Mr Pompeo. The best way to confront such adversaries is to abandon multilateralism, he said.
Bodies such as the EU, UN, World Bank and the IMF should be reformed or eliminated. They are fetters on our freedom of action. “The more treaties we sign, the safer we supposedly are,” Mr Pompeo said. “The more bureaucrats we have, the better the job gets done. But was that ever really true?”
Mr Pompeo’s answer was “no”. Rarely have so many straw men fallen victim to one rhetorical question.
Therein lay Mr Pompeo’s second insuperable obstacle: fitting the facts with his philosophy. The number of bureaucrats is not the issue. It is what they do.
With 32,000 employees, the European Commission is not huge. By contrast the US Department of Veterans Affairs employs more than 10 times that number, with 377,000 people. The US Department of Agriculture has 105,000. With just 10,000 employees, the World Bank is smaller than the US Department of the Interior. The same applies to the IMF, with 2,400 officials, and even the relatively bloated UN with 44,000. The EU deserves many criticisms, such as opacity and lack of accountability. Mr Pompeo did not advance any of these.
By the same token, few would argue that the quantity of treaties improves our security. That, too, was a straw man. People do make the case for robust international deals. Mr Pompeo did not propose any. Instead, he listed the ones the Trump administration has abandoned. These include the Paris deal on climate change, the Iran nuclear deal, the International Criminal Court, the UN Human Rights Council and the Intermediate-Range Nuclear Range Forces Treaty.
The next target, he hinted, would be the World Trade Organization. China’s advance was the “poisoned fruit” of America’s global retreat. It is easy to quibble with that too. How did the US build global bodies when it was in retreat?
But that is beside the point. Mr Pompeo did the world a favour this week: he crystallised the dissonance that runs through the Trump administration. Mr Trump’s aim is to contain China’s global rise. He also wants to remove the tools with which to blunt China’s rise. He offers with one hand what he removes with the other.
Mr Pompeo called for a new global liberal order of “noble nations”. In the same breath, he called on them to pursue their go-it-alone destinies. Nowhere in his speech did the words “west” or “western” occur.
Countries that abandon mutual endeavours do not naturally see eye to eye. A good example is the WTO. Mr Trump sees it as a globalist plot. To his friends in Britain, the WTO is an ocean on which the UK should gloriously set sail. Common sense tells us that nationalists will find it harder to pursue mutual interests with their brethren in similar countries. Brussels received Mr Pompeo’s speech in silence. The audience would have leapt to its feet in Beijing.
https://www.ft.com/content/340c8cc4-f903-11e8-af46-2022a0b02a6c |  |
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| Dismantling Nationalist Bullshit: on 19:50 - Dec 8 with 5406 views | Jackfath |
I cant be arsed to read that. Can you summarise please? |  |
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| Dismantling Nationalist Bullshit: on 19:52 - Dec 8 with 5400 views | Highjack |
| Dismantling Nationalist Bullshit: on 19:50 - Dec 8 by Jackfath |
I cant be arsed to read that. Can you summarise please? |
Trump bad. |  |
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| Dismantling Nationalist Bullshit: on 19:52 - Dec 8 with 5400 views | Shaky |
| Dismantling Nationalist Bullshit: on 19:50 - Dec 8 by Jackfath |
I cant be arsed to read that. Can you summarise please? |
Trump Administration policy is nationalist; see if you can make the mental leap from there? | |
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| Dismantling Nationalist Bullshit: on 20:21 - Dec 8 with 5365 views | Lohengrin |
| Dismantling Nationalist Bullshit: on 19:52 - Dec 8 by Shaky |
Trump Administration policy is nationalist; see if you can make the mental leap from there? |
“I am a reflection of my ancestors and their values. I keep them close and continue to learn, to pass on those values to future generations.”
That’s not mine, Shaky. That’s the inscription on the side of a box of Highland Park 12 year old Whisky sat on the table beside me. It’s just a marketing slogan but it comes pretty near, I think, to encapsulating the animating spirit of the Nationalist credo. A belief system that has absolutely no connection to the chaos of Trump’s White House. |  |
| An idea isn't responsible for those who believe in it. |
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| Dismantling Nationalist Bullshit: on 20:24 - Dec 8 with 5357 views | Yossarian |
| Dismantling Nationalist Bullshit: on 20:21 - Dec 8 by Lohengrin |
“I am a reflection of my ancestors and their values. I keep them close and continue to learn, to pass on those values to future generations.”
That’s not mine, Shaky. That’s the inscription on the side of a box of Highland Park 12 year old Whisky sat on the table beside me. It’s just a marketing slogan but it comes pretty near, I think, to encapsulating the animating spirit of the Nationalist credo. A belief system that has absolutely no connection to the chaos of Trump’s White House. |
That makes far more sense to me.....so it’s clear I can’t make the mental leap that that pompous arse thinks makes him intellectually superior.....it’s a site for fans of SCFC ffs. |  |
| "Yossarian- the very sight of the name made him shudder.There were so many esses in it. It just had to be subversive" (Catch 22) |
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| Dismantling Nationalist Bullshit: on 20:27 - Dec 8 with 5349 views | Lohengrin |
| Dismantling Nationalist Bullshit: on 20:24 - Dec 8 by Yossarian |
That makes far more sense to me.....so it’s clear I can’t make the mental leap that that pompous arse thinks makes him intellectually superior.....it’s a site for fans of SCFC ffs. |
Indulge him. Everybody needs a hobby.  | |
| An idea isn't responsible for those who believe in it. |
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| Dismantling Nationalist Bullshit: on 07:42 - Dec 9 with 5225 views | AnotherJohn |
| Dismantling Nationalist Bullshit: on 20:27 - Dec 8 by Lohengrin |
Indulge him. Everybody needs a hobby. |
Place-based values, a concept that once most of us could readily understand, but is now anathema to a certain type of metropolitan 'progressive' (often one working in financial services). |  | | |
| Dismantling Nationalist Bullshit: on 10:24 - Dec 9 with 5191 views | Catullus |
| Dismantling Nationalist Bullshit: on 19:50 - Dec 8 by Jackfath |
I cant be arsed to read that. Can you summarise please? |
Trumps representative is talking utter BS and saying we all retreat into our shells but work together closely, we should all put our own countries first because together we are stronger.
A cynic might say that dismantling the UN, WTO and IMF would be to the USA's advantage. Without group negotiating power the Americans would have the power, the upper hand.
However, I am still all for reforming the EU because it goes to far. We don't need political integration to work together as a continent for better deals. That it won't reform is why many chose leave.
Pompeo is in Brussels basically asking the European Turkeys to vote for Christmas. | |
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| Dismantling Nationalist Bullshit: on 11:09 - Dec 9 with 5170 views | Shaky |
| Dismantling Nationalist Bullshit: on 07:42 - Dec 9 by AnotherJohn |
Place-based values, a concept that once most of us could readily understand, but is now anathema to a certain type of metropolitan 'progressive' (often one working in financial services). |
As a general matter you are right; tribalism is indeed an anathema - and obstacle - to progress. | |
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| Dismantling Nationalist Bullshit: on 11:25 - Dec 9 with 5159 views | Catullus |
| Dismantling Nationalist Bullshit: on 11:09 - Dec 9 by Shaky |
As a general matter you are right; tribalism is indeed an anathema - and obstacle - to progress. |
Tribalism not good eh. Then is empire building any better? The Romans built a great empire, brought civilisation to many but which was once described as creating a desert and calling it peace.
I'll clarify that by saying that we need to cooperate but we don't need to all be pushed together in one big tribe that ends up with brooding tensions that will inevitably erupt.
Tribalism is our natural state, forcing tribes together into one big union hardly ever ends well. In such ways wars are started. | |
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| Dismantling Nationalist Bullshit: on 11:29 - Dec 9 with 5155 views | Shaky |
| Dismantling Nationalist Bullshit: on 11:25 - Dec 9 by Catullus |
Tribalism not good eh. Then is empire building any better? The Romans built a great empire, brought civilisation to many but which was once described as creating a desert and calling it peace.
I'll clarify that by saying that we need to cooperate but we don't need to all be pushed together in one big tribe that ends up with brooding tensions that will inevitably erupt.
Tribalism is our natural state, forcing tribes together into one big union hardly ever ends well. In such ways wars are started. |
Seeking to foster the brotherhood of man is precisely what Christianity has sought to achieve. And as mass movements go, you have to admit they have been fairly successful. | |
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| Dismantling Nationalist Bullshit: on 11:31 - Dec 9 with 5152 views | Lohengrin |
| Dismantling Nationalist Bullshit: on 11:09 - Dec 9 by Shaky |
As a general matter you are right; tribalism is indeed an anathema - and obstacle - to progress. |
You are General Sheridan and I claim my forty acres and a mule.  | |
| An idea isn't responsible for those who believe in it. |
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| Dismantling Nationalist Bullshit: on 11:44 - Dec 9 with 5140 views | controversial_jack |
| Dismantling Nationalist Bullshit: on 19:52 - Dec 8 by Shaky |
Trump Administration policy is nationalist; see if you can make the mental leap from there? |
It's only now that you have come to that conclusion? | | | |
| Dismantling Nationalist Bullshit: on 19:38 - Dec 9 with 5061 views | Catullus |
| Dismantling Nationalist Bullshit: on 11:29 - Dec 9 by Shaky |
Seeking to foster the brotherhood of man is precisely what Christianity has sought to achieve. And as mass movements go, you have to admit they have been fairly successful. |
Christianity is responsible for wars, for oppressing the masses and even for ruling over monarchies.
Ask the Muslims if it fostered brotherhood. It was succesful when the majority of humankind was absolutely less educated and much more ignorant but in these allegedly more enlightened days people are turning away from Christianity in their droves....until they are old and desperate to believe in something that promises life after death!
There's enough disused church space in Swansea to house all our homeless, maybe a truly Christian organisation would see to it and not just at Christmas/winterfest/Saturnalia. | |
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| Dismantling Nationalist Bullshit: on 03:40 - Dec 10 with 4989 views | Loyal |
| Dismantling Nationalist Bullshit: on 19:52 - Dec 8 by Shaky |
Trump Administration policy is nationalist; see if you can make the mental leap from there? |
I just see the USA as a country with a president who stands up for his country and won't get rolled over. Regardless that he is an arrogant kwunt or not.
Every country should have one. |  |
| Nolan sympathiser, clout expert, personal friend of Leigh Dineen, advocate and enforcer of porridge swallows.
The official inventor of the tit w@nk. | | Poll: | Who should be Swansea number 1 |
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| Dismantling Nationalist Bullshit: on 07:39 - Dec 10 with 4975 views | controversial_jack |
| Dismantling Nationalist Bullshit: on 03:40 - Dec 10 by Loyal |
I just see the USA as a country with a president who stands up for his country and won't get rolled over. Regardless that he is an arrogant kwunt or not.
Every country should have one. |
Germany had one of those 80 years ago, | | | |
| Dismantling Nationalist Bullshit: on 09:32 - Dec 10 with 4945 views | swanjackal |
| Dismantling Nationalist Bullshit: on 07:39 - Dec 10 by controversial_jack |
Germany had one of those 80 years ago, |
As did USA, and UK (also Russia, Italy and many many more). |  |
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Hypocritically hypocritical ! |
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| Dismantling Nationalist Bullshit: on 09:50 - Dec 10 with 4936 views | AnotherJohn |
Indeed so. I think the real issue here is that many of us detect an attempt to make 'nation' a dirty word and feel that there is an agenda there that we do not like. Speaking for myself, I still think the nation state on a human scale is the best way to deliver representative democracy and a stable society. By contrast very large political entities created by merging nation states seem to have problems. In any event, anybody who has spent time in Asia - and especially China or Russia - will know that the creation of a single open-borders, global entity (a brotherhood of humankind or whatever) is not going to happen any time soon. | | | |
| Dismantling Nationalist Bullshit: on 10:08 - Dec 10 with 4926 views | Catullus |
| Dismantling Nationalist Bullshit: on 09:50 - Dec 10 by AnotherJohn |
Indeed so. I think the real issue here is that many of us detect an attempt to make 'nation' a dirty word and feel that there is an agenda there that we do not like. Speaking for myself, I still think the nation state on a human scale is the best way to deliver representative democracy and a stable society. By contrast very large political entities created by merging nation states seem to have problems. In any event, anybody who has spent time in Asia - and especially China or Russia - will know that the creation of a single open-borders, global entity (a brotherhood of humankind or whatever) is not going to happen any time soon. |
This, every time. Even in the USA they are allowed to be tribal, the individual states have their own rules and laws and are represented in the HOR by elected people with the Senate also being elected by the people, unlike the EU commission and Presidents.
Looking at other places that were in political unions it all ended badly because eventually the 'tribalism' was stronger than the unionism. Even in long standing unions/countries the tribalism still fights to escape. I wonder if Trampie recognises himself as being tribalistic and yet ironically also being unionistic, wanting to have an an independent Wales which then joins the EU.
Nationalism is the latest bad thing soon to become an 'unword' used by 'unpeople' as airstrip one is slowly but surely given total primacy.
Also ironically, when the EU becomes the federal superstate it will then have become a nation, supposing all it's people think of themselves as only EU citizens and there is no lingering tribalism! | |
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| Dismantling Nationalist Bullshit: on 11:25 - Dec 10 with 4899 views | Highjack |
| Dismantling Nationalist Bullshit: on 07:39 - Dec 10 by controversial_jack |
Germany had one of those 80 years ago, |
And Godwin crosses the touch line and the board is up, nobody expected him this early Jeff. | |
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| Dismantling Nationalist Bullshit: on 14:20 - Dec 10 with 4875 views | controversial_jack |
All the conditions for nationalism are in place right now, the only thing missing is a charismatic leader | | | |
| Dismantling Nationalist Bullshit: on 16:08 - Dec 10 with 4846 views | Catullus |
| Dismantling Nationalist Bullshit: on 14:20 - Dec 10 by controversial_jack |
All the conditions for nationalism are in place right now, the only thing missing is a charismatic leader |
So we won't have an organised war, we'll just get anarchy!! The most charismatic person in Westminster right now is the statue of Pitt the younger. | |
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| Dismantling Nationalist Bullshit: on 16:48 - Dec 10 with 4837 views | Highjack |
| Dismantling Nationalist Bullshit: on 16:08 - Dec 10 by Catullus |
So we won't have an organised war, we'll just get anarchy!! The most charismatic person in Westminster right now is the statue of Pitt the younger. |
Seems like an oily tick to me. When we were at school we used to take four or five of his sort, tell them to bend over and used them as a toast rack. | |
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| Dismantling Nationalist Bullshit: on 17:37 - Dec 10 with 4823 views | Catullus |
| Dismantling Nationalist Bullshit: on 16:48 - Dec 10 by Highjack |
Seems like an oily tick to me. When we were at school we used to take four or five of his sort, tell them to bend over and used them as a toast rack. |
A toast rack eh? was the marmite included?
Oily tick? maybe, but then I was comparing him to other politicians. | |
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| Dismantling Nationalist Bullshit: on 18:01 - Dec 10 with 4820 views | Lohengrin |
| Dismantling Nationalist Bullshit: on 17:37 - Dec 10 by Catullus |
A toast rack eh? was the marmite included?
Oily tick? maybe, but then I was comparing him to other politicians. |
He’s quoting Blackadder, mun. | |
| An idea isn't responsible for those who believe in it. |
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