| US Elections 2016 10:34 - Oct 5 with 68395 views | BrianMcCarthy |
Great site here for tracking projections and polling for the Presidential, House and Senate elections over the next month. A wealth of info on each state in each race.
http://www.electionprojection.com/latest-polls/house-polls.php
Hopefully the warmongering Clinton wins it over the dangerously doolally Trump, and hopefully the Democrats can get the Senate back. |  |
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| US Elections 2016 on 01:11 - Nov 11 with 2012 views | isawqpratwcity |
| US Elections 2016 on 23:37 - Nov 10 by BrianMcCarthy |
Isaw, I completely agree with you in principle that it's a good thing to clear that legislative logjam that hinders progress in the U.S. but just not at the moment that the President is a racist misogynist sex abuser and the Vice President favours 'curing' homosexuals. Two Supreme Court seats come up for grabs during this Presidency. Just imagine who these people, unhindered, will elect to decide U.S. law and rights over the next decades. |
Yes, he is going stuff up a lot of things, and some, like the Supreme Court, will take a generation to come back to balance.
It's going to be interesting. |  |
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| US Elections 2016 on 09:13 - Nov 11 with 1918 views | paulparker |
| US Elections 2016 on 18:06 - Nov 10 by TacticalR |
That's because the right has no positive vision of the future and can only define itself negatively or by appealing for the return of an imaginary past. The best negative idea the American right ever had was anti-Communism. This enabled the US to justify intervention abroad and suppress dissent at home. The current obsession with muslims is one of many attempts by the right to find new enemies to define itself against.
The thing that amazes me is the victim culture of the contemporary right (I always understood the hate culture as I observed that first hand growing up). |
Victim culture ? ha ha ha ha , get a grip of yourselves
the problem with the left is the smear culture of shouting over people and branding them racists when they don't have any valid points to argue against
That's because the right has no positive vision of the future and can only define itself negatively or by appealing for the return of an imaginary past.
what a load of old clap trap , people are voting for change they want a different future
17.5 million british people who voted out are not all racists and nor are 50 odd million Americans who voted trump ,
Obama & the democrats had 8 years & the labour government had 13 , if they had done there jobs properly then both of those parties would still be in power
the fact is the majority are fed up with being to spoken to & treated like idiots and have voted on it
btw talking of smears did lilly allen ever find out who that nasty stereotypical black driver was who refused her a fare and called her a tart , no because he didn't exist |  |
| And Bowles is onside, Swinburne has come rushing out of his goal , what can Bowles do here , onto the left foot no, on to the right foot
That’s there that’s two, and that’s Bowles
Brian Moore
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| US Elections 2016 on 09:46 - Nov 11 with 1897 views | Konk |
| US Elections 2016 on 09:13 - Nov 11 by paulparker |
Victim culture ? ha ha ha ha , get a grip of yourselves
the problem with the left is the smear culture of shouting over people and branding them racists when they don't have any valid points to argue against
That's because the right has no positive vision of the future and can only define itself negatively or by appealing for the return of an imaginary past.
what a load of old clap trap , people are voting for change they want a different future
17.5 million british people who voted out are not all racists and nor are 50 odd million Americans who voted trump ,
Obama & the democrats had 8 years & the labour government had 13 , if they had done there jobs properly then both of those parties would still be in power
the fact is the majority are fed up with being to spoken to & treated like idiots and have voted on it
btw talking of smears did lilly allen ever find out who that nasty stereotypical black driver was who refused her a fare and called her a tart , no because he didn't exist |
I've been wondering if people really fed up with their governments or is it mock outrage? Is Donald Trump, tax-averse Billionaire property tycoon and son of property tycoon genuinely upset about the plight of the poor in the US or is it just mock outrage and concern designed to propel him to the Presidency? Is Nigel Farage, public school boy, former Stockbroker and EU Gravy-train ride enthusiast genuinely concerned about struggling communities in Sunderland and Merthyr or is it mock outrage and mock concern? Or is it only white celebrities on the left who can be accused of "mock outrage" when they're concerned about an issue that doesn't directly effect them, like racism, poverty, homophobia, the police shooting people for no reason etc?
And how can you say for sure that Lily Allen didn't have that experience with a cabbie? Genuinely interested to see how you know that. |  |
| Fulham FC: It's the taking part that counts |
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| US Elections 2016 on 09:47 - Nov 11 with 1897 views | DannytheR |
Lord knows I don't want to risk being seen to be emotional, but isn't using the Soviet Union as an example of a left-wing government a bit like using Nazi Germany as an example of a right-wing one?
I only ask because I can't imagine going down at all well with you, old bean.
Strangely, you haven't mentioned another time the left had a go at running things - we got the NHS out of it.
I always liked the NHS myself, although of course I understand you won't have ever used it yourself, given it's such a vile example of left wing state control. [Post edited 11 Nov 2016 9:50]
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| US Elections 2016 on 09:56 - Nov 11 with 1880 views | isawqpratwcity |
| US Elections 2016 on 09:13 - Nov 11 by paulparker |
Victim culture ? ha ha ha ha , get a grip of yourselves
the problem with the left is the smear culture of shouting over people and branding them racists when they don't have any valid points to argue against
That's because the right has no positive vision of the future and can only define itself negatively or by appealing for the return of an imaginary past.
what a load of old clap trap , people are voting for change they want a different future
17.5 million british people who voted out are not all racists and nor are 50 odd million Americans who voted trump ,
Obama & the democrats had 8 years & the labour government had 13 , if they had done there jobs properly then both of those parties would still be in power
the fact is the majority are fed up with being to spoken to & treated like idiots and have voted on it
btw talking of smears did lilly allen ever find out who that nasty stereotypical black driver was who refused her a fare and called her a tart , no because he didn't exist |
"get a grip of yourselves"
What makes you think Tactical_R is more than one person? | |
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| US Elections 2016 on 10:25 - Nov 11 with 1843 views | Maggsinho |
You're not seriously arguing that the Nazis were socialists? I know you love to take extremes and argue a strawman but come on.
If you're basing it on their use of the term National Socialists you might as well argue that the German Democratic Republic was a thriving democracy. |  | | |
| US Elections 2016 on 10:39 - Nov 11 with 1805 views | Discodroids |
| US Elections 2016 on 09:13 - Nov 11 by paulparker |
Victim culture ? ha ha ha ha , get a grip of yourselves
the problem with the left is the smear culture of shouting over people and branding them racists when they don't have any valid points to argue against
That's because the right has no positive vision of the future and can only define itself negatively or by appealing for the return of an imaginary past.
what a load of old clap trap , people are voting for change they want a different future
17.5 million british people who voted out are not all racists and nor are 50 odd million Americans who voted trump ,
Obama & the democrats had 8 years & the labour government had 13 , if they had done there jobs properly then both of those parties would still be in power
the fact is the majority are fed up with being to spoken to & treated like idiots and have voted on it
btw talking of smears did lilly allen ever find out who that nasty stereotypical black driver was who refused her a fare and called her a tart , no because he didn't exist |
Lily Allens Lucky PP, Heres my Top Tip for Cab Drivers of the Ilford parish of the last 20 years..
When picking up my Mrs , My sisters or indeed any female members of my extended family and social circle for a fare, you may find it advantageous not to ask them for full Penetrative Sex , Comment on how that all English women Dress like Drunken Whores , insist that they read the Koran and pray 6 times a day to a Deity .
Instead, Simply drop them off at the fuking pub or tesco's with Level 42 on the radio or perhaps swap Banalities about the weather in exchange for a fiscal Fare Commensurate with Miles travelled ,Petrol Costs and other miscellaneous costs .
Thank You. [Post edited 11 Nov 2016 10:44]
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| US Elections 2016 on 10:41 - Nov 11 with 1796 views | Maggsinho |
As above, you love to argue a straw man. | | | |
| US Elections 2016 on 10:51 - Nov 11 with 2150 views | Discodroids |
Can we cease these white noise Hostilities at 11am today for 2 minutes ?.
the left can continue to demonise us as Racist anal tract hp lovecraft loving bigots at 11.03 am and we can retort at 11.04 am that you on the left wear captain black Mysteron t shirts while playing warhammer with tooled up orcs and wizards on your lunch break.
Possibly W anking furiously to sue storm being restrained by Doctor Doom in an iron maiden. [Post edited 11 Nov 2016 10:52]
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| Changeable. Alterable. Mutable. Variable. Mouldable. Movable. Fluctuate. Undulate. Flicker. Flutter. Pulsate. Vibrate. Alternate. Plastic. Prog. House. Music. |
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| US Elections 2016 on 10:52 - Nov 11 with 2146 views | robith |
| US Elections 2016 on 09:13 - Nov 11 by paulparker |
Victim culture ? ha ha ha ha , get a grip of yourselves
the problem with the left is the smear culture of shouting over people and branding them racists when they don't have any valid points to argue against
That's because the right has no positive vision of the future and can only define itself negatively or by appealing for the return of an imaginary past.
what a load of old clap trap , people are voting for change they want a different future
17.5 million british people who voted out are not all racists and nor are 50 odd million Americans who voted trump ,
Obama & the democrats had 8 years & the labour government had 13 , if they had done there jobs properly then both of those parties would still be in power
the fact is the majority are fed up with being to spoken to & treated like idiots and have voted on it
btw talking of smears did lilly allen ever find out who that nasty stereotypical black driver was who refused her a fare and called her a tart , no because he didn't exist |
Back when I lived there I could never convince a cabbie to take me to Wandsworth Bridge Road after 9pm, so I don't find it that hard to believe a cabbie turned down a fare |  | | |
| US Elections 2016 on 11:07 - Nov 11 with 2112 views | paulparker |
| US Elections 2016 on 10:52 - Nov 11 by robith |
Back when I lived there I could never convince a cabbie to take me to Wandsworth Bridge Road after 9pm, so I don't find it that hard to believe a cabbie turned down a fare |
he may have turned down a fare but I find it hard to believe he called her the things she said he did
if he did he would have been outed by now , and why didn't she take reg or the cabbies number or even film it | |
| And Bowles is onside, Swinburne has come rushing out of his goal , what can Bowles do here , onto the left foot no, on to the right foot
That’s there that’s two, and that’s Bowles
Brian Moore
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| US Elections 2016 on 11:09 - Nov 11 with 2110 views | DannytheR |
"Well it would be if the Nazis weren't National Socialists."
OK, I think if our starting point is that the Nazis were actually left-wing, we may be too far apart in our terminology for this to go anywhere. When you talk about "right" and "left," it feels like you're really talking about unfettered free market capitalism on one hand and absolute state control of all aspects of society on the other, and that's a very narrow and very extreme definition of what the terms mean.
If the conversation becomes one about the merits of a pure free market rather than people's right to bully women and ethnic minorities, it would be interesting to see how many of those who now rant and rave about "lefties" could still honestly identify as themselves "right wing." It's easy enough to have an internet pop at Lily Allen or Diane Abbot, but do they really want to give up their nice free doctors and schools too? [Post edited 11 Nov 2016 11:18]
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| US Elections 2016 on 11:23 - Nov 11 with 2085 views | Konk |
Clive, what are you going on about?
I've been hearing a lot about left-leaning types "mock outrage" of late - it started with columnists and Radio presenters and now seems to be used a lot on message boards such as this one. It's used whenever someone like Lilly Allen or Helen Mirren expresses sympathy for refugees or anger at a newspaper article. The logic being that because they live comfortable, privileged lives, they're just expressing sympathy/"outrage" for effect. It's the extension of the Champagne socialist logic that says it's impossible to be genuinely interested in some sort of social justice if you happen to live in a nice big house with a few bob in the bank. Even if you're happy to vote for a party that would increase your taxes. I don't see any contradiction at all between living a very comfortable life and having leftish leanings.
You get people asking (endlessly) how many refugees Gary Lineker or Lilly Allen have invited into their homes. I'm just wondering if this works both ways: can someone born into and living a life of privilege (Trump & Farage) genuinely care about people struggling to get by or is it all for show? If Trump was genuinely concerned about the state of American manufacturing, wouldn't he have spent the past few decades sourcing American products for his businesses rather than stocking them with Chinese made goods? When the loaded Richard Littlejohn writes a column slamming immigrant labour for depriving Britons of work, does he honestly care about the fate of people struggling to get by?
The point I was trying to make, Clive, was that if you automatically assume that anyone on the left is engaging in just-for-show outrage/concern on social issues, shouldn't you be consistent and assume the same when you have expenses-creaming Farage and tax-shy Trump sticking up for the working man? Or is anyone on the Left automatically a charlatan and only those on the right sincere when expressing sympathy with people in dire circumstances? I'd just like to see some consistency from the right and the dropping of the "mock outrage" shi te whenever a celebrity shows some compassion. | |
| Fulham FC: It's the taking part that counts |
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| US Elections 2016 on 11:25 - Nov 11 with 2078 views | nadera78 |
Talk about missing the point of Konk's post!
The right say Lilly Allen, et al can't empathise with poor people because she hasn't lived it, so Konk was reversing that same argument to use against Farage (presumably to prove a point). And you exploded about it! You've just done to the left what you claim the left do to you. |  | | |
| US Elections 2016 on 11:29 - Nov 11 with 2068 views | Konk |
| US Elections 2016 on 11:25 - Nov 11 by nadera78 |
Talk about missing the point of Konk's post!
The right say Lilly Allen, et al can't empathise with poor people because she hasn't lived it, so Konk was reversing that same argument to use against Farage (presumably to prove a point). And you exploded about it! You've just done to the left what you claim the left do to you. |
Thanks Nadera. I know I'm not the most gifted communicator, but I was beginning to wonder how I'd failed to get that point across. | |
| Fulham FC: It's the taking part that counts |
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| US Elections 2016 on 11:45 - Nov 11 with 2035 views | DannytheR |
OK, first, thanks for the embarrassingly pedantic response re: doctors and schools. Clearly, I meant free at the point of use. The actual point I was making still stands. Feel free to engage with it, or not.
What I''m saying is we don't seem to be using the same definition of "left" and "right," and I doubt whether a lot of people who talk scornfully of "lefties" would share your enthusiasm for pure, unregulated free market capitalism once they realised what it really involved.
And for the record, I think there's also a real problem with Corbyn supporters and their attitudes to women and Jews as well. The two sides have got far more in common than many of their supporters might like to think.
Only the other day, someone on here was gleefully looking forward to how Emily Thornberry would react to a Trump victory. She was, of course, greatly encouraged by it, seeing it as a sign that "ordinary people" were now fed up with "the system." It all comes full circle.
I also think you let yourself down by repeatedly insisting that anyone who doesn't agree with you is a paid up member of Momentum and trotting out some kind of party line. It's perfectly possible to think your politics are simplistic, tribal and often pretty cruel, and also think Jeremy Corbyn is a tit.
The irony is that you keep talking about other people's inability to argue logically, while berating one individual person in hugely generalised terms about the evils of "the left."
It's like trying to talk to someone in a pub who keeps replying through a megaphone. [Post edited 11 Nov 2016 11:48]
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| US Elections 2016 on 11:47 - Nov 11 with 2027 views | kensalriser |
Doesn't it get boring acting deliberately obtuse, Clive? |  |
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| US Elections 2016 on 11:53 - Nov 11 with 2015 views | robith |
| US Elections 2016 on 11:25 - Nov 11 by nadera78 |
Talk about missing the point of Konk's post!
The right say Lilly Allen, et al can't empathise with poor people because she hasn't lived it, so Konk was reversing that same argument to use against Farage (presumably to prove a point). And you exploded about it! You've just done to the left what you claim the left do to you. |
Missing the point is Clive's MO.
Smart guy, but he talks about what he wants to talk about, not where the discussion has led to | | | |
| US Elections 2016 on 12:26 - Nov 11 with 1960 views | THEBUSH |
The thing that does worry me about Trump is the people he's gonna pick in his cabinet, ugh.
Here's some of the names who are favourite, Sarah Palin, Newt Gingrich, Rudy Giuliani, Chris Christie, Ben Carson and John Bolton  |  | | |
| US Elections 2016 on 12:38 - Nov 11 with 1923 views | easthertsr |
| US Elections 2016 on 12:26 - Nov 11 by THEBUSH |
The thing that does worry me about Trump is the people he's gonna pick in his cabinet, ugh.
Here's some of the names who are favourite, Sarah Palin, Newt Gingrich, Rudy Giuliani, Chris Christie, Ben Carson and John Bolton |
Christ Almighty! There is your Basket of deplorables! | | | |
| US Elections 2016 on 12:41 - Nov 11 with 1916 views | Hunterhoop |
| US Elections 2016 on 11:25 - Nov 11 by nadera78 |
Talk about missing the point of Konk's post!
The right say Lilly Allen, et al can't empathise with poor people because she hasn't lived it, so Konk was reversing that same argument to use against Farage (presumably to prove a point). And you exploded about it! You've just done to the left what you claim the left do to you. |
If ever you could call "checkmate" in a discussion, that would be it! |  | | |
| US Elections 2016 on 12:53 - Nov 11 with 1873 views | Juzzie |
| US Elections 2016 on 11:09 - Nov 11 by DannytheR |
"Well it would be if the Nazis weren't National Socialists."
OK, I think if our starting point is that the Nazis were actually left-wing, we may be too far apart in our terminology for this to go anywhere. When you talk about "right" and "left," it feels like you're really talking about unfettered free market capitalism on one hand and absolute state control of all aspects of society on the other, and that's a very narrow and very extreme definition of what the terms mean.
If the conversation becomes one about the merits of a pure free market rather than people's right to bully women and ethnic minorities, it would be interesting to see how many of those who now rant and rave about "lefties" could still honestly identify as themselves "right wing." It's easy enough to have an internet pop at Lily Allen or Diane Abbot, but do they really want to give up their nice free doctors and schools too? [Post edited 11 Nov 2016 11:18]
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I think it's a bit more simpler than that.
The same in Africa where you have any number of organisations calling themselves things like "The People's Revolutionary Party" or "People's Republic of.....".
The minute anyone's title alludes to be for the good of the people, you can bet your bottom dollar they are actually the opposite. |  | | |
| US Elections 2016 on 12:53 - Nov 11 with 1872 views | Konk |
Do you genuinely believe that? The media and public have been banging on about "Champagne Socialists" as a way of dismissing the political views of anyone on the left who doesn't live in a shed, since way before anyone had ever heard of Nigel Farage.
PS. "To try and argue the abuse Farage gets is purely a recent ironic answer to criticism of Lily Allen is laughable." - where exactly have I set out that argument? I'm saying, if you're going to accuse people of insincerity for taking a compassionate interest in someone else's interests despite them having a house in the Cotswolds, isn't it only fair (or just as stupid) to say the same of Farage, Trump, Melanie Phillips etc when they purport to support the working class? [Post edited 11 Nov 2016 13:09]
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| Fulham FC: It's the taking part that counts |
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| US Elections 2016 on 13:01 - Nov 11 with 1850 views | Hunterhoop |
One thing I would throw in, and it ties a little to Clive's point but is equally warranted for all sides is this: people use labels when it comes to politics that:
a) they misunderstand
b) aren't fit for purpose anymore
That makes things difficult. Even when I studied politics and discussed with other students this was an issue. When you bring broader society into debate people are labelling things entirely incorrectly to the extent they have no idea where their own beliefs sit on the political spectrum. A spectrum that is not "Left-Right".
The best way of thinking about it, that I've come across, is https://www.politicalcompass.org/
Whilst I don't necessarily agree with all their analysis on there (articles, where they plot political figures, etc), the simple way of mapping out the political playing field, when it comes to beliefs, it simple but good.
It goes from "economically" "Left" (hard socialist) to "Right" (neo liberal) - that's the X axis.
On the Y axis, are you "socially" "Liberal" or "Authoritarian".
I am pretty centrist economically, and the liberal socially. What party represents me? None. I'm certainly not a "Liberal Leftie" as that's an oxymoron. It doesn't exist certainly not from an economic standpoint. I'm relatively liberal economy but belief we should have a liberal economic approach with a conscience. The principles of "Globalisation" or simply freer movement of labour, capital and goods, is repeatedly proven to be net positive for the societies throughout, but there are losers....it's important the small number of losers are looked after.
Socially, I think most people are relatively liberal now, certainly compared to 50 years ago.
Hitler was a National Socialist yes. But this meant economically "left", but socially at the upmost extreme of Authoritarian. His socially "anti-Liberal" hard authoritarianism is what defined the Nazis and what people hate him for.
Where does Trump fit? I actually think he's economically left of centre. But I think he's very authoritarian. Worryingly so. You can't define him (or anyone) as really "Left" or "Right" and it's silly to keep doing so.
Both sides are guilty of this. The number of Guardian readers who don't understand what "Fascist" or "Nazi" really is politically is frightening, as is the number of right wingers who lump "lefties" and "liberals" together, when they're very different.
Trump has been elected as a reaction to globalisation neoliberalism. And the rebound has been so hard that he's got in on an economically left of centre, and extremely authoritarian programme! Worth noting, some of his policies/ideas aren't far from that or Bernie Sanders....and his infrastructure bill, likely to be his first big one, will be heavily democratically supported by more economically left leaning Democrats on the hill.
It's his authoritarian social stance (couple by the noises about stepping back from world policeman role - an economically "left" call, to reduce expenditure on those outside your country), that are the concerns. Not what he may do for workers in the US. | | | |
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