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Those of you who like blaming the Government on 07:46 - Sep 11 by Professor
The UK economy should be similar to Germany but is not- that is down the last 60 odd years of poor decisions. The point was the UK economy is not surging ahead and one metric does Not a better country make. Food banks and homelessness are clear to see. I hear policing issues due to underfunding on the radio this morning. Of course Ethiopia has a smaller economy based on agriculture, but as you suggest we have an undersized economy based on service and finance
Thank you Margaret. We don't need manufacturing/engineering or anything else just spivs in London and a service economy...
It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. - Carl Sagan
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Those of you who like blaming the Government on 10:59 - Sep 12 with 1859 views
Those of you who like blaming the Government on 10:46 - Sep 11 by Professor
It's a sound argument. I voted to remain- I'm a scientist and the EU was an important source of funding for research and allowed collaboration in areas to compete with the US and China that no individual member has the resource to do so. I don't believe the equivalent will be given to UKRI so there will be a negative impact-mostly in areas such as physics and agri-food (my area). I still believe many people were duped by the leave arguments and there is a clear drive by certain rich individuals to change the UK to a lower tax, lower rights, lower state provision economy like the US.
I also think there is a lack of knowledge of what other Northern European, largely protestant countries are like-more 'soft' socialist policies accompanied by a wider industrial base. We are too reliant on our 'spiv' economy compared to Germany, Netherlands or Sweden. I think the fear of federalism comes from this and the idea the EU is regulated highly, even if often the regulations actually are hugely beneficial. Food safety is a clear example-prevalence rates of Salmonella are more than double in the US over the EU-as there are specific controls in EU chicken production ( (US levels are around four fold higher than UK and Germany where they were implemented most strictly)
Like you I have no confidence in government or the opposition (though I think both parties have competent politicians) and the rise of the right is a real worry.
Good post that.
On your first point, there's been a recent report by the think tank IPPR Commission on Economic Justice setting out a range of recommendations & proposals to address this move towards US-style low tax/low investment/low rights economy and growing wealth inequality.
Hopefully we'll retain a lot of the health and environment regulation, or at least not dilute it. Still to be made, but I don't see what can be bad in expecting companies to treat our natural resources and it's citizen's health with respect.
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Those of you who like blaming the Government on 12:40 - Sep 12 with 1842 views
Those of you who like blaming the Government on 10:59 - Sep 12 by LeonWasGod
Good post that.
On your first point, there's been a recent report by the think tank IPPR Commission on Economic Justice setting out a range of recommendations & proposals to address this move towards US-style low tax/low investment/low rights economy and growing wealth inequality.
Hopefully we'll retain a lot of the health and environment regulation, or at least not dilute it. Still to be made, but I don't see what can be bad in expecting companies to treat our natural resources and it's citizen's health with respect.
Loss of important public health and environmental protection regulations are a fear for me-these are less rigorous in the US which has a shocking death-at-work rate and little provision for sick pay. (I am the Health and Safety Lead for the Vet School-so relatively familiar with some of this).
As for the wealth gap-its clearly there if you visit London or any prosperous city, and will be more apparent in other areas before long. I may well be better off in a US-style economy (would be paid a bit more and pay a lot less tax than the £17K PAYE + NI +£6K pension contributions I paid last year) but that is not my only motivation in life. I like the idea of community and collective responsibility.
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Those of you who like blaming the Government on 14:40 - Sep 12 with 1821 views
Those of you who like blaming the Government on 12:40 - Sep 12 by Professor
Loss of important public health and environmental protection regulations are a fear for me-these are less rigorous in the US which has a shocking death-at-work rate and little provision for sick pay. (I am the Health and Safety Lead for the Vet School-so relatively familiar with some of this).
As for the wealth gap-its clearly there if you visit London or any prosperous city, and will be more apparent in other areas before long. I may well be better off in a US-style economy (would be paid a bit more and pay a lot less tax than the £17K PAYE + NI +£6K pension contributions I paid last year) but that is not my only motivation in life. I like the idea of community and collective responsibility.
Your last few sentences, I'm with you there. Though unlike the welfare sttes founding principles the 5 giant evils these days include being poor, being sick, being disabled, being old and being hungry. The only collective responsibility is when the politicians stick together to protect themselves.....I know, I'm cynical.
Bearing in mind I'm a leaver, put that article in with Brexit and you have the reasons why Cameron and Osborne were one of the worst things to ever happen to this country.
Thing is, it's not always easy to see at the time but hindsight is very clear. Osborne's policies made the poorest suffer but helped the rich get richer. Cameron's brexit referendum was too soon, badly planned and executed with no alternative plan for if he lost/we chose leave.
I think Clasie said it, May is hopeless (though she MIGHT be well intentioned) but Cameron was by far a worse PM than her. He created a sh/tstorm then ran away. Even I can see and admit that if Cameron had run a positive, fact based campaign it could easily have been a remain victory. When people feel like they're being bullied they often push back and possibly many leave voters would have supported a positive, information led remain campaign.
Those of you who like blaming the Government on 09:25 - Nov 17 by Catullus
Bearing in mind I'm a leaver, put that article in with Brexit and you have the reasons why Cameron and Osborne were one of the worst things to ever happen to this country.
Thing is, it's not always easy to see at the time but hindsight is very clear. Osborne's policies made the poorest suffer but helped the rich get richer. Cameron's brexit referendum was too soon, badly planned and executed with no alternative plan for if he lost/we chose leave.
I think Clasie said it, May is hopeless (though she MIGHT be well intentioned) but Cameron was by far a worse PM than her. He created a sh/tstorm then ran away. Even I can see and admit that if Cameron had run a positive, fact based campaign it could easily have been a remain victory. When people feel like they're being bullied they often push back and possibly many leave voters would have supported a positive, information led remain campaign.
Brexiters laying into Cameron for a lack of plan if the brexit vote didn’t go his way, is just an argument I can’t accept. Brexiteers promised the world during the referendum and his counter arguments were dismissed as project fear. How could he ever deliver what other people promised? Furthermore, when it was blindingly obvious there wasn’t a plan the following morning when he resigned. But brexiteers were keen to push ahead with A50 as quickly as possible, putting immense pressure on TM at the time. Nobody wanted a discussion on what to do next, or agree on a plan. Brexiteers were only concerned about triggering a premature A50 notice before anyone noticed and you lot clapped and cheered as they did so.
Brexit voters are keen to blame everyone but themselves.
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Those of you who like blaming the Government on 10:25 - Nov 17 with 1639 views
Those of you who like blaming the Government on 10:01 - Nov 17 by Batterseajack
Brexiters laying into Cameron for a lack of plan if the brexit vote didn’t go his way, is just an argument I can’t accept. Brexiteers promised the world during the referendum and his counter arguments were dismissed as project fear. How could he ever deliver what other people promised? Furthermore, when it was blindingly obvious there wasn’t a plan the following morning when he resigned. But brexiteers were keen to push ahead with A50 as quickly as possible, putting immense pressure on TM at the time. Nobody wanted a discussion on what to do next, or agree on a plan. Brexiteers were only concerned about triggering a premature A50 notice before anyone noticed and you lot clapped and cheered as they did so.
Brexit voters are keen to blame everyone but themselves.
The remain campaign failed because “project fear” was just more of what we were going through anyway.
The threat of austerity, public service cuts, NHS cuts, job insecurity and low wages didn’t put much fear into people as that’s just normal Conservative party (and EU) policy.
[Post edited 17 Nov 2018 10:28]
The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.
Those of you who like blaming the Government on 10:01 - Nov 17 by Batterseajack
Brexiters laying into Cameron for a lack of plan if the brexit vote didn’t go his way, is just an argument I can’t accept. Brexiteers promised the world during the referendum and his counter arguments were dismissed as project fear. How could he ever deliver what other people promised? Furthermore, when it was blindingly obvious there wasn’t a plan the following morning when he resigned. But brexiteers were keen to push ahead with A50 as quickly as possible, putting immense pressure on TM at the time. Nobody wanted a discussion on what to do next, or agree on a plan. Brexiteers were only concerned about triggering a premature A50 notice before anyone noticed and you lot clapped and cheered as they did so.
Brexit voters are keen to blame everyone but themselves.
You are just keen to blame leavers for everything. Like I said, if cameron had run a positive campaign it could all be different. Take it or leave it, but when you try to scare people into doing something you will only get two reactions, subservience or a fight back. Cameron gave leave more juice, both sides told lies but leave were telling positive lies, in amongst the truths. Remain mostly tried scare tactics and it backfired. People were given the binary choice where most people chose to believe the positive future stories over the doom and gloom scare stories. How many people do you reckon may have been pushed towards leave by Bob Geldof's disgusting behaviour? That's before you get into any actual fact based arguments because many older people already had an opinion after having lived with the EU most of their lives. The only thing the vast majority now agree on is how bad the majority of our politicians are, the failings, the greed and incompetence have all been laid bare for all to see. Apparently 75% now agree the government has made a total mess of brexit.
Those of you who like blaming the Government on 10:25 - Nov 17 by Catullus
You are just keen to blame leavers for everything. Like I said, if cameron had run a positive campaign it could all be different. Take it or leave it, but when you try to scare people into doing something you will only get two reactions, subservience or a fight back. Cameron gave leave more juice, both sides told lies but leave were telling positive lies, in amongst the truths. Remain mostly tried scare tactics and it backfired. People were given the binary choice where most people chose to believe the positive future stories over the doom and gloom scare stories. How many people do you reckon may have been pushed towards leave by Bob Geldof's disgusting behaviour? That's before you get into any actual fact based arguments because many older people already had an opinion after having lived with the EU most of their lives. The only thing the vast majority now agree on is how bad the majority of our politicians are, the failings, the greed and incompetence have all been laid bare for all to see. Apparently 75% now agree the government has made a total mess of brexit.
I blame leavers because they voted for it. They got seduced by the lies and undeliverable promises of leaving, and if given a second vote tomorrow, most leavers would vote leave again even if they now think we’re in a massive mess.
I have no idea what bob geldoff did, but to think people blame him because they voted leave is beggars belief.
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Those of you who like blaming the Government on 12:17 - Nov 17 with 1601 views
Those of you who like blaming the Government on 09:25 - Nov 17 by Catullus
Bearing in mind I'm a leaver, put that article in with Brexit and you have the reasons why Cameron and Osborne were one of the worst things to ever happen to this country.
Thing is, it's not always easy to see at the time but hindsight is very clear. Osborne's policies made the poorest suffer but helped the rich get richer. Cameron's brexit referendum was too soon, badly planned and executed with no alternative plan for if he lost/we chose leave.
I think Clasie said it, May is hopeless (though she MIGHT be well intentioned) but Cameron was by far a worse PM than her. He created a sh/tstorm then ran away. Even I can see and admit that if Cameron had run a positive, fact based campaign it could easily have been a remain victory. When people feel like they're being bullied they often push back and possibly many leave voters would have supported a positive, information led remain campaign.
Quote - "Thing is its not always easy to see at the time"
He staked his being PM on getting deal with the EU to show there could be reform / negotiations beneficial to both parties - something which imo would have led to Remain winning. The fact EU leaders mocked that deal certainly hardened many peoples views.
If he'd stayed on I dare say many on here would be laying into him for not resigning.
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Those of you who like blaming the Government on 13:05 - Nov 17 with 1573 views
Those of you who like blaming the Government on 12:37 - Nov 17 by bluey_the_blue
How did Cameron "run away"?
He staked his being PM on getting deal with the EU to show there could be reform / negotiations beneficial to both parties - something which imo would have led to Remain winning. The fact EU leaders mocked that deal certainly hardened many peoples views.
If he'd stayed on I dare say many on here would be laying into him for not resigning.
He said he would stay in office even if leave won.
Leave won, he resigned the next day.
If there is a better example of someone running away from their responsibilities, I'd like to see it.
The only 3 possible conclusions A) Cameron is a liar. B) Cameron is a coward. C) Cameron is a liar and a,coward.
Those of you who like blaming the Government on 13:05 - Nov 17 by sherpajacob
He said he would stay in office even if leave won.
Leave won, he resigned the next day.
If there is a better example of someone running away from their responsibilities, I'd like to see it.
The only 3 possible conclusions A) Cameron is a liar. B) Cameron is a coward. C) Cameron is a liar and a,coward.
At least he resigned before he could do more damage unlike Blair the world criminal who took us into an illegal war by lying to parliament and the public. He pops up from time to time airing his views which 90% of the population then take the opposite view.
Then we have brown who took over a booming economy which with a couple of years crashed into the biggest recession since the 30s and left an annual deficit of £160,000,000.
Those of you who like blaming the Government on 13:59 - Nov 17 by felixstowe_jack
At least he resigned before he could do more damage unlike Blair the world criminal who took us into an illegal war by lying to parliament and the public. He pops up from time to time airing his views which 90% of the population then take the opposite view.
Then we have brown who took over a booming economy which with a couple of years crashed into the biggest recession since the 30s and left an annual deficit of £160,000,000.
"At least he resigned before he could do more damage"
What additional damage to the UK above and beyond that inflicted by Theresa May would Cameron have managed.?
Despite what Cameron said before the referendum, his position became untenable as soon as the result was known. He staked this country’s future on a short term political gamble that failed miserably. He oversaw a dreadful campaign, allowed the other side’s lies and exaggerations to go unchallenged amd would have had to oversee something that he knew to be fundamentally stupid and damaging for the country. He had no authority in the country, parliament or his party. He had no choice but to resign.
That said, Theresa May is also guilty of all the things listed above yet grimly clings to power like earth’s last surviving cockroach. When the history books are written the two of themwill vie for the position of Britain’s most useless prime minister. Who comes out on top is anyone’s guess.
Those of you who like blaming the Government on 14:35 - Nov 17 by exiledclaseboy
Despite what Cameron said before the referendum, his position became untenable as soon as the result was known. He staked this country’s future on a short term political gamble that failed miserably. He oversaw a dreadful campaign, allowed the other side’s lies and exaggerations to go unchallenged amd would have had to oversee something that he knew to be fundamentally stupid and damaging for the country. He had no authority in the country, parliament or his party. He had no choice but to resign.
That said, Theresa May is also guilty of all the things listed above yet grimly clings to power like earth’s last surviving cockroach. When the history books are written the two of themwill vie for the position of Britain’s most useless prime minister. Who comes out on top is anyone’s guess.
Clasie, the only thing there I disagree with is about Cameron, he did have a choice, like May has. Whether she's being stupid or brave, at least she hasn't run away. That's why Cameron is worse, for me.
To answer Gowerjack, if you can see (or saw) everything clearly then you should take up politics because even politicians can't see clearly what's coming. If they did, Cameron would never have done the referendum. He believed we'd choose remain, his vision was cloudy. I believe, if brexit was done properly by good politicians, it would be a success. What we have though is the blind being pushed by the stupid with neither noticing the cliff edge looming.
It all comes back to the same thing, the politicians, we haven't had any decent politicians for decades. People are busy bashing leave voters for falling for lies but when all politicians tell lies, which lie do you believe? Because remain were just as culpable. Should we have believed that Osborne could predict where we'd be in 15 years when he couldn't see tomorrow coming.
Those of you who like blaming the Government on 14:35 - Nov 17 by exiledclaseboy
Despite what Cameron said before the referendum, his position became untenable as soon as the result was known. He staked this country’s future on a short term political gamble that failed miserably. He oversaw a dreadful campaign, allowed the other side’s lies and exaggerations to go unchallenged amd would have had to oversee something that he knew to be fundamentally stupid and damaging for the country. He had no authority in the country, parliament or his party. He had no choice but to resign.
That said, Theresa May is also guilty of all the things listed above yet grimly clings to power like earth’s last surviving cockroach. When the history books are written the two of themwill vie for the position of Britain’s most useless prime minister. Who comes out on top is anyone’s guess.
I think Corbyn will beat both of them
The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.
Those of you who like blaming the Government on 10:36 - Nov 17 by Batterseajack
I blame leavers because they voted for it. They got seduced by the lies and undeliverable promises of leaving, and if given a second vote tomorrow, most leavers would vote leave again even if they now think we’re in a massive mess.
I have no idea what bob geldoff did, but to think people blame him because they voted leave is beggars belief.
I wasn't blaming Geldof, I just wondered how many were turned off by his mad rants, caught on camera abusing british workers. You blame leavers for believing lies and undeliverable promises, can you name a government of the last 50 years who haven't told lies and made undeliverable promises? And will you castigate eveybody who voted for them?
Those of you who like blaming the Government on 15:46 - Nov 17 by Highjack
There were lies on both sides. It’s what campaigning politicians do.
This has been done to death.
Yep and it'll probably continue because to some remainers only leave told lies, only leave voters were stupid enough to believe the lies and remainers can see everything clearly.
That's where it ends for me, no more travelling Ouroboros.
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