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Theresa was wrong during Election Campaign! One billion quid winging it's way to Northern Ireland. See, that tree does exist, you just have to look hard to find it!
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Magic Money Tree Discovered! on 08:14 - Jun 27 with 2870 views
Magic Money Tree Discovered! on 20:56 - Jun 26 by DannytheR
Let's not make out that allowing ordinary kids to get a university education without incurring huge debt (the system under which most of us grew up) is the same as buying off a tiny group of religious/sectarian MPs so you can personally stay in power.
One billion pounds.
How many of us know people who have had operations cancelled, or have kids sharing text books when a couple of years ago they weren't, and yet evidently we have one billion pounds to spare.
For this.
Ugh. This is all going to come crashing down very, very hard.
Magic Money Tree Discovered! on 08:06 - Jun 27 by 2Thomas2Bowles
It's a bit strange that only a week or so ago you were saying the Tories were "no longer your party" after they started to deal with the DUP and here you are defending them.
I thought you were made of sterner stuff and morals hmmm
[Post edited 27 Jun 2017 8:08]
Hang on a minute , show me the post where I say I am happy with this partnership . I do not support the DUP views on most things . I still support the Tory principles . I am just commenting on the cherrypicking and hypocrisy Happy to put my morals up against anyone , they have cost me a fortune over the years .
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Magic Money Tree Discovered! on 08:32 - Jun 27 with 2838 views
Magic Money Tree Discovered! on 08:18 - Jun 27 by essextaxiboy
Hang on a minute , show me the post where I say I am happy with this partnership . I do not support the DUP views on most things . I still support the Tory principles . I am just commenting on the cherrypicking and hypocrisy Happy to put my morals up against anyone , they have cost me a fortune over the years .
Tory principles You are contradicting yourself and you accuse Labour supporters of wanting every which way.
I may have upset some with my views but at least I stick to them.
Magic Money Tree Discovered! on 08:18 - Jun 27 by essextaxiboy
Hang on a minute , show me the post where I say I am happy with this partnership . I do not support the DUP views on most things . I still support the Tory principles . I am just commenting on the cherrypicking and hypocrisy Happy to put my morals up against anyone , they have cost me a fortune over the years .
Mate how can you support tory principles on this? Its wrong, we all know its wrong and even deep down you know its wrong!
AND WHEN I DREAM , I DREAM ABOUT YOU AND WHEN I SCREAM I SCREAM ABOUT YOU!!!!!
Magic Money Tree Discovered! on 08:32 - Jun 27 by 2Thomas2Bowles
Tory principles You are contradicting yourself and you accuse Labour supporters of wanting every which way.
I may have upset some with my views but at least I stick to them.
You spin me round baby
And again.... where did I post that I am happy with this partnership ?
Tory principles that I support , for the record
Self responsibility, self reliance,family values , hard work , the rule of law, economic responsibility, non violence, supporting entrepreneurship,low taxation , small state.
Some caveats in there but thats what I voted for . Not this deal for sure as i posted after the election .
No spin just my opinions , consistent throughout the Brexit vote and the election IMO .
Cherrypicking is the reason I am on this thread .
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Magic Money Tree Discovered! on 08:51 - Jun 27 with 2816 views
Magic Money Tree Discovered! on 00:29 - Jun 27 by Brightonhoop
You forget UK degrees are shyte and worthless in the wider world and all our talent leaves consequently.
A £30,000 debt for a worthless bit of paper the rest of the world sneers at. i'm doing DeMontrfort coats and tails at £10,000 50% off two.
Pound is on parity to the dreaded Euro. So Brexit is going really well. National currency sunk by 30% in 12 months so far and will on this trajectory be sucking c0ck by xmas. Utter idiotic self inflicted disaster. Say hello to 1970's inflation. Mortgage payments and rents going very north in 2018.
Well done.
From liveable to disaster in 12 months.
"You forget UK degrees are shyte and worthless in the wider world.
A £30,000 debt for a worthless bit of paper the rest of the world sneers at."
QS World University Rankings. 4 UK universities in the top 10 (Cambridge, Oxford, UCL, Imperial), 7 in the Top 30 (inc. Edinburgh, Kings, Manchester). 1st non-UK EU university 33rd (Ecole Normale Superieure), next after that 53rd (Ecole Polytechnique), 57th (Amsterdam), 60th (Tech. University of Munich), all 3 below Warwick. The tables dominated, unsurprisingly, by that bastion of free education, the US.
Magic Money Tree Discovered! on 12:48 - Jun 27 by easthertsr
Surely it's not the choice that's wrong, it's giving them a shedload of taxpayers money to support them!
Tax payers money is used for all kind of things that we do not agree with, it has happened in the past, it happens now and it will happen in the future. Both Gordon Brown and Glenn Millaband were both in contact with the DUP, in Brown's case, after the 2010 election result was known and Millaband's during the election campaign and if you think that no kind of 'bribe' was offered then you are being very naïve. And it is the same with election campaigns and manifestos. The latest Labour one was the biggest wish list in political history and according to the IFS there was an eye-watering £9billion black hole, which excluded the amount that it would have cost the government to repurchase the long list of utilities during their term in government, and if you think that Labour would have met all of their commitments then your naivety extends even further. Its all politics, it always has been and always will be, and yes it is hypocrisy and yes all are bad as each other. Certain parts of the electorate will always be let down by the party that they voted for, hence you have floating voters.
Magic Money Tree Discovered! on 12:48 - Jun 27 by easthertsr
Surely it's not the choice that's wrong, it's giving them a shedload of taxpayers money to support them!
The DUP are not getting the money NI is . Do you think the SNP would have supported Labour with nothing extra for Scotland ? Its all about the warped ideas about gay, abortion and what is taught to children that is the issue ...for me anyway ..
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Magic Money Tree Discovered! on 13:49 - Jun 27 with 2562 views
Magic Money Tree Discovered! on 21:30 - Jun 26 by DWQPR
Scrapping tuition fees to reverse a phrase is for the few not the many. By scrapping fees it means that those who are not talented, or interested in going to university will therefore be subsiding those who are able. And it is those who will end up with the much higher earnings potential. Essex is correct in saying that there will be a reduction in university places as the government would only be able to afford a finite amount and these places will be filled with more foreign students not our own. Before tuition fees were introduced the number of students going to university was around 30%, now it is 45%. Tuition fees hasn't stopped people going to university but it will prevent future generations if they are scrapped. And the majority who will make it will be from the better reaches of society.
Saying all this though, after thinking about this issue since the election, I would now scrap tuition fees. But I would replace them with a graduate tax. This means students will leave university debt free, and the word debt is the emotive word here. Especially if you throw £45k in front of it. Switch it to a tax, and offer the same to those who have already graduated with student loans to repay. And from say £20k p.a. They pay an additional 2 to 3% of income tax. So if they are earning £30k per year their additional tax charge is £600 p.a., if they are fortunate to earn £200k p.a. then the tax is £4K p.a. And make this tax payable for say 25 years. So there is no debt, other than a debt to society for your additional learning, and the numbers of students wanting to go to university should not be affected, (although personally I think that too many have been duped into going instead of maybe entering into an apprenticeship).
[Post edited 26 Jun 2017 21:32]
"the government would only be able to afford a finite amount and these places will be filled with more foreign students not our own" - Foreign students pay for their own tuition as they do currently so would not be taking any from our own. In many ways the government reducing the number of people going to university and perhaps being able to weight funding so that more places are available for things we need (doctors, engineers, etc) could be viewed as a positive and help make sure that we don't have a skills shortage when Brexit kicks in and it becomes harder to import skills.
Personally I disagree with student tax, especially if it was to be introduced by a political party that resists increasing tax on the richest for fear of discouraging them from earning money (or whatever the logic is). How could they justify arbitrarily taxing someone at a rate that could change for a duration that could change in exchange for a fixed amount of money. It seems to discourage education and encourages people to find work in unskilled jobs which would mean more reliance on immigration to fill skilled jobs. It would also encourage people to leave the UK after competing their degree where UK taxation wouldn't be able to get them, I guess the Universities could do well out of this by providing additional courses for foreign languages.
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Magic Money Tree Discovered! on 13:53 - Jun 27 with 2542 views
Magic Money Tree Discovered! on 13:49 - Jun 27 by QPR_Jim
"the government would only be able to afford a finite amount and these places will be filled with more foreign students not our own" - Foreign students pay for their own tuition as they do currently so would not be taking any from our own. In many ways the government reducing the number of people going to university and perhaps being able to weight funding so that more places are available for things we need (doctors, engineers, etc) could be viewed as a positive and help make sure that we don't have a skills shortage when Brexit kicks in and it becomes harder to import skills.
Personally I disagree with student tax, especially if it was to be introduced by a political party that resists increasing tax on the richest for fear of discouraging them from earning money (or whatever the logic is). How could they justify arbitrarily taxing someone at a rate that could change for a duration that could change in exchange for a fixed amount of money. It seems to discourage education and encourages people to find work in unskilled jobs which would mean more reliance on immigration to fill skilled jobs. It would also encourage people to leave the UK after competing their degree where UK taxation wouldn't be able to get them, I guess the Universities could do well out of this by providing additional courses for foreign languages.
Currently under the fee system people who decide to leave the UK will also be out of reach of the loan companies, so the same argument would apply. I really do suspect that given the choice of having to fund their own further education most students would prefer a fair taxation system rather than a student loan system as it gets rid of that emotional word 'debt'. All students will leave university debt free and those who choose to go into lower paid occupations will repay very little, those who end up earning fortunes will pay much more, much in the same way as the current tax system works.
The biggest problem with the current system has been the presentation of it, which is typical of politicians. For those who earn more than £21,000 per annum the cost is 9%. So someone earning £31,000 will be repaying £900 per year, on £41,000, £1,800 per year and £51,000 will be repaying £2,700 per year. It is almost the same as a tax, so if so, surely it would be better that those who choose to work, as I say in lower paid professions, let them pay less and be subsidised by the high fliers.
Magic Money Tree Discovered! on 14:15 - Jun 27 by DWQPR
Currently under the fee system people who decide to leave the UK will also be out of reach of the loan companies, so the same argument would apply. I really do suspect that given the choice of having to fund their own further education most students would prefer a fair taxation system rather than a student loan system as it gets rid of that emotional word 'debt'. All students will leave university debt free and those who choose to go into lower paid occupations will repay very little, those who end up earning fortunes will pay much more, much in the same way as the current tax system works.
The biggest problem with the current system has been the presentation of it, which is typical of politicians. For those who earn more than £21,000 per annum the cost is 9%. So someone earning £31,000 will be repaying £900 per year, on £41,000, £1,800 per year and £51,000 will be repaying £2,700 per year. It is almost the same as a tax, so if so, surely it would be better that those who choose to work, as I say in lower paid professions, let them pay less and be subsidised by the high fliers.
Debt can be repaid though, as mine now thankfully is, if it's just a tax as you say then you could be subject to paying more or less than you borrowed. A tax would also be left to political whim so the duration of student tax could be increased as you come to the end or the rate increased. I see what you mean about removing the negative connotations of the word debt but in reality it would be penalising higher education at a time when there is a shortage of skilled workers.
Do we need as many as 48% going to university? Probably not. Do the private sector invest enough in developing and generating skilled workers? Probably not. Something needs to change, I'm not sure if removing tuition fees is the answer but it's certainly brought it to the table for conversation and has good social reasoning to it if not financially viable. In my opinion we need less people at university and more apprenticeships and on the job training, how we achieve that is open to debate.
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Magic Money Tree Discovered! on 14:26 - Jun 27 with 2496 views
I work in a university and for a couple of years worked in our funds team.
The loan system is completely shambolic. There is a huge black hole of EU students whom go home and never pay their fees back. There is a huge black hole of UK students whom leave the country and never pay their loans back.
Students also pay interest on their loans so they pay back much, much more than they ever took out.
The whole system needs to be changed as there will be an even bigger black hole soon when all the current students don't or can't get a job over 21k or in fact anything at all.
Sexy Asian dwarves wanted.
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Magic Money Tree Discovered! on 16:20 - Jun 27 with 2434 views
Magic Money Tree Discovered! on 14:25 - Jun 27 by QPR_Jim
Debt can be repaid though, as mine now thankfully is, if it's just a tax as you say then you could be subject to paying more or less than you borrowed. A tax would also be left to political whim so the duration of student tax could be increased as you come to the end or the rate increased. I see what you mean about removing the negative connotations of the word debt but in reality it would be penalising higher education at a time when there is a shortage of skilled workers.
Do we need as many as 48% going to university? Probably not. Do the private sector invest enough in developing and generating skilled workers? Probably not. Something needs to change, I'm not sure if removing tuition fees is the answer but it's certainly brought it to the table for conversation and has good social reasoning to it if not financially viable. In my opinion we need less people at university and more apprenticeships and on the job training, how we achieve that is open to debate.
Totally agree with you with regard to university numbers and my feeling is that Blair's drive to increase these numbers which have since been maintained especially given the fixation by schools to get high exam pass rates has in itself caused the skills shortages that has caused many firms to look abroad for the required workers. I've always said that students at 14 should be evaluated for either vocational or academia futures and those helped or volunteered to go down the vocational route should then attend the 'technical college' side of the school, but should also maintain lessons in such subjects as maths, English and IT and even possibly business studies. These technical colleges could even be sponsored by business given that they are the ones that will benefit from an increased supply of skilled workers from the state. And as for those who head for the academic route, their learning should also increase given that is what they are there to do, without the disruption that happens in class.
Magic Money Tree Discovered! on 16:33 - Jun 27 by kensalriser
£9 billion ain't shit. We spent £500 billion in one hit bailing out failed banks.
Cash down (in a number of stages) peaked at £133bn. NAO reported in late 2016 that the outstanding cash out at 31/03/2016 was £76bn, including loans to be recovered from Northern Rock and Bradford & Bingley, and shareholdings in Lloyds (since sold) and RBS. Net loss will be in the region of £20-25bn at the current RBS share price.
Magic Money Tree Discovered! on 17:34 - Jun 27 by MrSheen
Cash down (in a number of stages) peaked at £133bn. NAO reported in late 2016 that the outstanding cash out at 31/03/2016 was £76bn, including loans to be recovered from Northern Rock and Bradford & Bingley, and shareholdings in Lloyds (since sold) and RBS. Net loss will be in the region of £20-25bn at the current RBS share price.
Magic Money Tree Discovered! on 17:34 - Jun 27 by MrSheen
Cash down (in a number of stages) peaked at £133bn. NAO reported in late 2016 that the outstanding cash out at 31/03/2016 was £76bn, including loans to be recovered from Northern Rock and Bradford & Bingley, and shareholdings in Lloyds (since sold) and RBS. Net loss will be in the region of £20-25bn at the current RBS share price.
Magic Money Tree Discovered! on 18:31 - Jun 28 by WatfordR
Cheers mate.
If it's not (and I don't think it is), I'd guess you're probably looking at another £25-30 billion at least to be added to the final loss.
Having another look at the report, they say they got £19bn in fees and interest for supplying these loans and guarantees, equivalent to a 3% average funding cost. They say this is less than the market would have charged for such risky credit - assuming you would have found anyone willing to prop the banks up at that time. I'm still not 100% sure, but more inclined to believe that the £25-30bn estimate of all in cost includes the cost of the government borrowing the cash they put down. Open to changing my mind though.
One of the oddities is that they said they got dividends out of RBS - they must have created a special share class as part of the rescue funding.
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Magic Money Tree Discovered! on 20:06 - Jun 28 with 2017 views
Magic Money Tree Discovered! on 19:10 - Jun 28 by MrSheen
Having another look at the report, they say they got £19bn in fees and interest for supplying these loans and guarantees, equivalent to a 3% average funding cost. They say this is less than the market would have charged for such risky credit - assuming you would have found anyone willing to prop the banks up at that time. I'm still not 100% sure, but more inclined to believe that the £25-30bn estimate of all in cost includes the cost of the government borrowing the cash they put down. Open to changing my mind though.
One of the oddities is that they said they got dividends out of RBS - they must have created a special share class as part of the rescue funding.
Think that £19bn relates to the guarantees alone rather than loans. Govt borrowing for the purchase of shares and loans came from 50 year Gilts at just under 3%. That's about £4bn per annum in interest. Even if the money received from sale of shares and repayment of loans went towards repurchasing these specific Gilts (and I'll bet it didn't!!), we're still paying about £2.3bn per annum in interest.
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