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The obvious correlation between education level and Brexitism misses the point a bit. In a typical town or city that once depended on one heavy industry, in the past there was no need or reason to stay in education because the work was there. Then the plants closed and the only significant group who could afford to leave were those who qualified for further education and a student loan.
They've protested In the US, with 10 times the mobility rates of Europe, by voting for Trump; and in Russia, where populations of ex-industrial 'monotowns' were the most educated in the Soviet era, they've rioted.
How many Brexiters actually thought their situation would somehow improve outside the EU, how many were making a dirty protest, and how many resent migrant arrivals as proxies of their ex-neighbours who managed to leave, is neither here nor there. That their protest came as a surprise showed how completely out of touch Cameron and co. were.
A magnificent football club, the love of our lives, finding a way to finally have its day in the sun.
DW, is it not true that the leave campaign was substantially the more mendacious?
And why should people who consider that we should remain in the EU stop campaigning for what they want? Opposition is part of our political system and events are always unfolding. Had the result been the other way we all know that people arguing to leave would not have stopped campaigning - Farage said as much.
There are probably loads of reasons why someone chose to vote Leave (or Remain) but it's media/social network frenzy that assumes all Leave voters are racist, xenophobic, homophobic, etc etc. It really is insulting.
I had to unfollow one friend on FB as every fcking post (this is 7 months after the referendum) she makes accuses Leave votes exactly as this. She's quite intelligent which just goes to show how quasi-religious it's become and how people are getting swept up in the hysteria. Quite ironic really.
The problem is that Brexiters may have had plenty of very good reasons to make a protest with real impact, but no-one has yet put forward a remotely plausible case for leaving the EU. So their motives are presumed to be bigotry.
And, face it, it has given the many existing bigots a chance to shine.
A magnificent football club, the love of our lives, finding a way to finally have its day in the sun.
This powerful link to educational attainment could stem from the lower qualified tending to feel less confident about their prospects and ability to compete for work in a competitive globalised economy with high levels of migration."
To me this suggests this country is failing in it's education system and is refusing to fund people to the level required for a "globalised world"
Which it is. Look at the doctors stuff at the moment and no mention of the cost of university and the lack of availability in Medicine just as one example.
However we won't mention that bit - we'll just sat "your thick" you can't manage and we'll blame you.
Sinister times
You're quite right but Brexit will have exactly the opposite impact.
How to compete outside Europe? Encourage enterprise. How to do that? Cut taxes. The result? Reduced funds for e.g. medical education - anyway, doctors trained abroad will be happy to come with our low low taxes, why spend our own money on training?
It's a race to the bottom and you've been played. I don't blame anyone who voted to leave but the cynical recklessness of the people in government who let it happen, just to protect their own fukcing job security, absolutely beggars belief.
A magnificent football club, the love of our lives, finding a way to finally have its day in the sun.
The problem is that Brexiters may have had plenty of very good reasons to make a protest with real impact, but no-one has yet put forward a remotely plausible case for leaving the EU. So their motives are presumed to be bigotry.
And, face it, it has given the many existing bigots a chance to shine.
That's a good point. You might say that they are making it up as they go along.
However, as mentioned elsewhere, with Farage and Gove's flight to America to kiss Trump's ring, the American dimension is gradually becoming clearer.
Not exactly I've long thought we were on a race to the bottom, and the EU is a massive part of it. This may not change but I don't believe the EU is a reason that prevents this change or "race"
Not exactly I've long thought we were on a race to the bottom, and the EU is a massive part of it. This may not change but I don't believe the EU is a reason that prevents this change or "race"
From my perspective living in the UK and other European countries, I'd say most policies that have benefited average people in Britain over 40 years have come out of Brussels, and most that have harmed them have come out of Westminster. Only problem is, Westminster controls the media and Brussels makes a brilliant fall guy.
A magnificent football club, the love of our lives, finding a way to finally have its day in the sun.
The problem is that Brexiters may have had plenty of very good reasons to make a protest with real impact, but no-one has yet put forward a remotely plausible case for leaving the EU. So their motives are presumed to be bigotry.
And, face it, it has given the many existing bigots a chance to shine.
I voted Leave for a number of reasons, none of them to do with what gets banded around.
I want to see UK business/industry/farming etc. grow. It's been decimated for decades. When I was growing up in the 80's people were proud to campaign to "Buy British", now if you do this you're called racist. Example; https://tinyurl.com/z9ey6nw
Britain is the 6th largest economy in the world (2nd highest in Europe after Germany) and I believe we can make our own decisions without the need to haemorrhage £millions a week into what I see as a failing system.
I'm actual pro-Europe, if it works. I don't believe it does. It's become a bloated organisation that wastes massive amounts of our money.
A union by definition is a strong body. the EU is not, IMO, and I think we can still manage to trade perfectly well with the other European countries (Norway and Switzerland manage it).
I have nothing against migration, from Europe or beyond. They are a very welcome and needed contribution. As long as people are here to study/work, pay their taxes, contribute to society etc.
People might not agree with me and that's fine. It's what I think and am entitled to vote by.
FWIW, it was obvious in the run up there were lies on both sides. That's the fault of the liar makers, not the voters and the liar makers should be held accountable.
Overall, it showed for me that Cameron was so completely out of touch with what is going on. I believe a lot of people used it as a protest vote. He was so confident of a Remain win that he even put on page 9 of the 9 million leaflets sent out, paid for by the taxpayer, that they will absolutely stand by the outcome of the referendum. They have to now otherwise democracy is dead.
The problem is that Brexiters may have had plenty of very good reasons to make a protest with real impact, but no-one has yet put forward a remotely plausible case for leaving the EU. So their motives are presumed to be bigotry.
And, face it, it has given the many existing bigots a chance to shine.
And presumption is the mother of all fck ups. When voters have not been able to influence anything and have been shat on by every party in government for 50 years here was a Luddite opportunity not just influence but to tip the whole stinking cesspit out of the boat. Some bigots like Farage saw an opportunity and too it. But to say all who voted out are bigots is stupid and does nothing to achieve any kind of understanding, so the old gravy train can regain traction and rumble on. And the idea Remainers should now shut up is equally stupid, those that did not want into the original EEC in the '70s did not shut up for one day in forty years. Outside the EU I still think the UK is a basket case and the economic tragedy for the majority has not even started to unfold yet. There was and still is enough resistance to major EU policy elsewhere in Europe that it would have been better to harness and cause a revolution from within with influence. Outside, there is no influence, and to leave the Trading Market I cutting the nose off to spite the face. As someone else noted there's a lot of uneducated people whose livelihoods and future wealth is threatened not just by immigration but by globalisation too. So it is not the work of Einstein to conclude a lot of those people will have voted out.
I voted Leave for a number of reasons, none of them to do with what gets banded around.
I want to see UK business/industry/farming etc. grow. It's been decimated for decades. When I was growing up in the 80's people were proud to campaign to "Buy British", now if you do this you're called racist. Example; https://tinyurl.com/z9ey6nw
Britain is the 6th largest economy in the world (2nd highest in Europe after Germany) and I believe we can make our own decisions without the need to haemorrhage £millions a week into what I see as a failing system.
I'm actual pro-Europe, if it works. I don't believe it does. It's become a bloated organisation that wastes massive amounts of our money.
A union by definition is a strong body. the EU is not, IMO, and I think we can still manage to trade perfectly well with the other European countries (Norway and Switzerland manage it).
I have nothing against migration, from Europe or beyond. They are a very welcome and needed contribution. As long as people are here to study/work, pay their taxes, contribute to society etc.
People might not agree with me and that's fine. It's what I think and am entitled to vote by.
FWIW, it was obvious in the run up there were lies on both sides. That's the fault of the liar makers, not the voters and the liar makers should be held accountable.
Overall, it showed for me that Cameron was so completely out of touch with what is going on. I believe a lot of people used it as a protest vote. He was so confident of a Remain win that he even put on page 9 of the 9 million leaflets sent out, paid for by the taxpayer, that they will absolutely stand by the outcome of the referendum. They have to now otherwise democracy is dead.
[Post edited 7 Feb 2017 13:53]
Well we agree on lots of points, but the idea of a nation that can manage on its own is ancient, ancient history. London has a food footprint the size of Spain. Enjoy those potatoes, there won't be room to grow the meat with the two beige veg.
Britain will join a select group in two years - the only other country in no trade bloc is North Korea. Switzerland has 40 years of trade deals under its belt, and it takes advantage of its smallness to be Europe's tax haven. Norway has 40 years of trade deals, monstrous piles of oil and no people to spend it on. etc. etc.
There's plenty to mend in the EU, starting with the CAP which flies in the face of all the principles, but the idea of better off out is absolute fantasy, and anyone who says otherwise is straight up lying.
Anyway, give it 50 years, we'll be in some trade bloc with a new name and the Sun will still be telling everyone what wan kers they all are.
A magnificent football club, the love of our lives, finding a way to finally have its day in the sun.
I voted Leave for a number of reasons, none of them to do with what gets banded around.
I want to see UK business/industry/farming etc. grow. It's been decimated for decades. When I was growing up in the 80's people were proud to campaign to "Buy British", now if you do this you're called racist. Example; https://tinyurl.com/z9ey6nw
Britain is the 6th largest economy in the world (2nd highest in Europe after Germany) and I believe we can make our own decisions without the need to haemorrhage £millions a week into what I see as a failing system.
I'm actual pro-Europe, if it works. I don't believe it does. It's become a bloated organisation that wastes massive amounts of our money.
A union by definition is a strong body. the EU is not, IMO, and I think we can still manage to trade perfectly well with the other European countries (Norway and Switzerland manage it).
I have nothing against migration, from Europe or beyond. They are a very welcome and needed contribution. As long as people are here to study/work, pay their taxes, contribute to society etc.
People might not agree with me and that's fine. It's what I think and am entitled to vote by.
FWIW, it was obvious in the run up there were lies on both sides. That's the fault of the liar makers, not the voters and the liar makers should be held accountable.
Overall, it showed for me that Cameron was so completely out of touch with what is going on. I believe a lot of people used it as a protest vote. He was so confident of a Remain win that he even put on page 9 of the 9 million leaflets sent out, paid for by the taxpayer, that they will absolutely stand by the outcome of the referendum. They have to now otherwise democracy is dead.
[Post edited 7 Feb 2017 13:53]
Your link is fantastic. Did you even read it? Even the bloke who runs the shop says that he thinks some people may have thought it was a UKIP shop of some sort, but they now come in to buy stuff. Classic Standard, that.
Actually, 'buying British' is never being called racist - it's encouraged all the time, particularly with food, because of airmiles etc. Part of the problem is people aren't willing to pay for it. We live in a comparatively wealthy country, but we demand cheap produce. So to compete, farmers pay ludicrously low wages for extremely hard graft. We won't do that work, so workers are brought in from abroad. Then we complain they're stealing our jobs. As if it's their fault!
I'm a resolute remainer, but always try and buy British when I can. to use local shops when I can. To support local businesses when I can. The fact people don't has very little to do with the EU!
Agree it was a protest vote, and you and I and Anderson on here could argue until the Great British cows come home, but the fact is no one here *knows* with any degree of certainty what the right decision was. And we're people who've actually bothered reading both sides of the debate. The stupidity of asking a populace who is largely ignorant of all the hundreds of factors involved in this immense decision was the real mistake. And I don't mean 'ignorant' pejoratively. It's a mammoth, giant, complex web of pros and cons and pros to the cons and cons to the pros to consider. Who among us, with our jobs, our home life, our kids, our hours spent on Loft For Words, sex lives, internet surfing and keeping up to date with our personal hygiene, could possibly have a hope of really understanding it and having a rock solid, evidence-based view on it. you can't, so we are all at the mercy of our own prejudices, whether that's instinctively pro-Europe, or instinctively not.
If we're going to vote on things like this, why elect anyone at all? I can see the decision for a referendum on the voting system. In comparison, it's a simple thing to consider. But no one cared enough to bother voting in that one because it didn't appeal to any prejudices or touch any nerves. But it should have done. That referendum should have been about PR. And it should have won. And then the 4m UKIP voters would have had actual genuine representation in parliament and there could have been a proper debate on the EU membership among people whose fcking job it is to know about it and debate it.
I respect people who voted out. It was their prerogative. There are loads of good reasons to vote out, loads to stay in, and bad reasons for both. But as you say, it was a protest vote. Why the fk did we allow a referendum when people might use it as a protest vote?! It's a complete and utter mess.
As mentioned, the OP has never posted in this forum before.
On the question of education, there is an interesting discussion of attitudes to the Vietnam War, at the time of the war, in James Loewen's Lies My Teacher Told Me (1995)
Discussing the myth that educated people were more likely to be opposed to the Vietnam war (a myth perpetuated in 'Rambo') Loewen says:
'However, the truth is quite different. Educated people disproportionately supported the Vietnam War. Table 3 shows the actual outcome of the January 1971 poll:
These results surprise even some professional social scientists. Twice as high a proportion of college-educated adults, 40 percent, were hawks, compared to only 20 percent of adults with grade school educations. And this poll was no isolated phenomenon. Similar results were registered again and again, in surveys by Harris, NORC, and others. Back in 1965, when only 24 percent of the nation agreed that the United States “made a mistake” in sending troops to Vietnam, 28 percent of the grade school-educated felt so. Later, when less than half of the college-educated adults favored pullout, among the grade school-educated 61 percent did. Throughout our long involvement in Southeast Asia, on issues related to Vietnam, Thailand, Cambodia, or Laos, the grade school-educated were always the most dovish, the college-educated the most hawkish.'
From 71 though - the war had been dragging on a while by that point and by that point poorer communities would have taken the brunt of the war massively. I suspect that poll would have been very different pre Tet
Your link is fantastic. Did you even read it? Even the bloke who runs the shop says that he thinks some people may have thought it was a UKIP shop of some sort, but they now come in to buy stuff. Classic Standard, that.
Actually, 'buying British' is never being called racist - it's encouraged all the time, particularly with food, because of airmiles etc. Part of the problem is people aren't willing to pay for it. We live in a comparatively wealthy country, but we demand cheap produce. So to compete, farmers pay ludicrously low wages for extremely hard graft. We won't do that work, so workers are brought in from abroad. Then we complain they're stealing our jobs. As if it's their fault!
I'm a resolute remainer, but always try and buy British when I can. to use local shops when I can. To support local businesses when I can. The fact people don't has very little to do with the EU!
Agree it was a protest vote, and you and I and Anderson on here could argue until the Great British cows come home, but the fact is no one here *knows* with any degree of certainty what the right decision was. And we're people who've actually bothered reading both sides of the debate. The stupidity of asking a populace who is largely ignorant of all the hundreds of factors involved in this immense decision was the real mistake. And I don't mean 'ignorant' pejoratively. It's a mammoth, giant, complex web of pros and cons and pros to the cons and cons to the pros to consider. Who among us, with our jobs, our home life, our kids, our hours spent on Loft For Words, sex lives, internet surfing and keeping up to date with our personal hygiene, could possibly have a hope of really understanding it and having a rock solid, evidence-based view on it. you can't, so we are all at the mercy of our own prejudices, whether that's instinctively pro-Europe, or instinctively not.
If we're going to vote on things like this, why elect anyone at all? I can see the decision for a referendum on the voting system. In comparison, it's a simple thing to consider. But no one cared enough to bother voting in that one because it didn't appeal to any prejudices or touch any nerves. But it should have done. That referendum should have been about PR. And it should have won. And then the 4m UKIP voters would have had actual genuine representation in parliament and there could have been a proper debate on the EU membership among people whose fcking job it is to know about it and debate it.
I respect people who voted out. It was their prerogative. There are loads of good reasons to vote out, loads to stay in, and bad reasons for both. But as you say, it was a protest vote. Why the fk did we allow a referendum when people might use it as a protest vote?! It's a complete and utter mess.
Sex life? Personal hygiene? What the hell are you doing on here?
Otherwise,
A magnificent football club, the love of our lives, finding a way to finally have its day in the sun.
Well we agree on lots of points, but the idea of a nation that can manage on its own is ancient, ancient history. London has a food footprint the size of Spain. Enjoy those potatoes, there won't be room to grow the meat with the two beige veg.
Britain will join a select group in two years - the only other country in no trade bloc is North Korea. Switzerland has 40 years of trade deals under its belt, and it takes advantage of its smallness to be Europe's tax haven. Norway has 40 years of trade deals, monstrous piles of oil and no people to spend it on. etc. etc.
There's plenty to mend in the EU, starting with the CAP which flies in the face of all the principles, but the idea of better off out is absolute fantasy, and anyone who says otherwise is straight up lying.
Anyway, give it 50 years, we'll be in some trade bloc with a new name and the Sun will still be telling everyone what wan kers they all are.
A bit extreme to place us with North Korea. Norway, because of the collapse in oil prices is now having to draw down on its sovereign fund for the first time ever, Switzerland is a nation which will more and more have to toe the EU line given the controversies of its banking system with the likes of Luxembourg ready to step in and take up the slack.
A UK/EU trade deal will occur, it will be free of tariffs, big business, especially that of Germany will see to that. We have a huge trade deficit with the rest of the EU, which tells me that they have much more to lose than we do in terms of a no trade deal. Anything that ends up at the WTO in terms of trade will cost our exporters and will cost their exporters. Governments will have to subsidies, funds that they can scarcely afford at this moment in time. Jobs could be lost, which governments could scarcely afford at this moment in time and in addition to this the EU is currently having to figure out a black hole of £185million per week, £9billion per year, which was the UK's net contribution to the EU. European leaders can bluster all they like but in reality they will need to realise the reality of the situation and the one European leader who has been conspicuous by their absence in terms of economic threats to the UK has been Angela Merkel. She knows the reality of the situation, she also knows that if the effects of the UK leaving the EU also means that the likes of countries such as Greece, Spain, Italy, Ireland and Portugal also leaving due to continued economic decline and increasing financial reliance, then the remaining EU would actually become a stronger entity not having to waste funds on these nations.
Well we agree on lots of points, but the idea of a nation that can manage on its own is ancient, ancient history. London has a food footprint the size of Spain. Enjoy those potatoes, there won't be room to grow the meat with the two beige veg.
Britain will join a select group in two years - the only other country in no trade bloc is North Korea. Switzerland has 40 years of trade deals under its belt, and it takes advantage of its smallness to be Europe's tax haven. Norway has 40 years of trade deals, monstrous piles of oil and no people to spend it on. etc. etc.
There's plenty to mend in the EU, starting with the CAP which flies in the face of all the principles, but the idea of better off out is absolute fantasy, and anyone who says otherwise is straight up lying.
Anyway, give it 50 years, we'll be in some trade bloc with a new name and the Sun will still be telling everyone what wan kers they all are.
I'm not saying we should stop buying food produce from outside of the UK. I think we can do both, encourage local produce as well as buy in. It's been mainly the latter with UK farms closing at an alarming rate over the years.
I never said either that we should manage on our own. I said we're the 6th strongest economy in the world and can decide for ourselves who we trade with. That's not the same as shutting the door and becoming self-reliant. That of course is not possible.
Your link is fantastic. Did you even read it? Even the bloke who runs the shop says that he thinks some people may have thought it was a UKIP shop of some sort, but they now come in to buy stuff. Classic Standard, that.
Actually, 'buying British' is never being called racist - it's encouraged all the time, particularly with food, because of airmiles etc. Part of the problem is people aren't willing to pay for it. We live in a comparatively wealthy country, but we demand cheap produce. So to compete, farmers pay ludicrously low wages for extremely hard graft. We won't do that work, so workers are brought in from abroad. Then we complain they're stealing our jobs. As if it's their fault!
I'm a resolute remainer, but always try and buy British when I can. to use local shops when I can. To support local businesses when I can. The fact people don't has very little to do with the EU!
Agree it was a protest vote, and you and I and Anderson on here could argue until the Great British cows come home, but the fact is no one here *knows* with any degree of certainty what the right decision was. And we're people who've actually bothered reading both sides of the debate. The stupidity of asking a populace who is largely ignorant of all the hundreds of factors involved in this immense decision was the real mistake. And I don't mean 'ignorant' pejoratively. It's a mammoth, giant, complex web of pros and cons and pros to the cons and cons to the pros to consider. Who among us, with our jobs, our home life, our kids, our hours spent on Loft For Words, sex lives, internet surfing and keeping up to date with our personal hygiene, could possibly have a hope of really understanding it and having a rock solid, evidence-based view on it. you can't, so we are all at the mercy of our own prejudices, whether that's instinctively pro-Europe, or instinctively not.
If we're going to vote on things like this, why elect anyone at all? I can see the decision for a referendum on the voting system. In comparison, it's a simple thing to consider. But no one cared enough to bother voting in that one because it didn't appeal to any prejudices or touch any nerves. But it should have done. That referendum should have been about PR. And it should have won. And then the 4m UKIP voters would have had actual genuine representation in parliament and there could have been a proper debate on the EU membership among people whose fcking job it is to know about it and debate it.
I respect people who voted out. It was their prerogative. There are loads of good reasons to vote out, loads to stay in, and bad reasons for both. But as you say, it was a protest vote. Why the fk did we allow a referendum when people might use it as a protest vote?! It's a complete and utter mess.
"Why the fk did we allow a referendum when people might use it as a protest vote?! It's a complete and utter mess."
Absolutely! 'cos Cameron didn't have a scooby. Absolutely showed up top level politicians not having a clue. I'm really glad it happened the way it did as it's rocked things to the core here and needed to happen.
Yet this guy is being touted as the next NATO Secretary General who didn't even know what was going on under his own nose.
It may take a decade or two to sort all the s**t out but politics was going to s**t anyway and I think had Remain won we would have blissfully carried on going down the pan. At least this way they have a chance to try and sort the mess they created.
'No matter how stupid you are you're still entitled to one vote'.
And there in lay the problem...
What a mess. I'm annoyed for my kids more than anything, denied a European future by little Englanders.
Ken Clarke's speech in Parliament perfectly summarised the fantasy that Brexit is built on.
You should be pleased for your kids ,there is massive youth unemployment in the Euro zone . They will be free from having to subsidise that . I have three adult boys and a granddaughter ,I voted out for them , not me .
By the way only 24% of young people bothered to vote
Brexit isn't a fantasy , it's happening and if it's taking a while to prepare for it you should remember that one of the first things Cameron did in the campaign was to deny any "out" members of parliament access to civil servants . He also as the Prime Minister failed to do even the slightest preparation for a leave vote.
The legal arguments are being dealt with one by one , the name calling , insults and mudslinging continue .
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