| In the blue corner – Report on 02:21 - Feb 13 with 2500 views | simmo |
I think we disagree slightly on your expectation/desire for Varane to take his game further forward... IMO he is not an advanced midfielder that will be busting into the box and getting goals and assists consistently, and probably never will be. Asking him to do it is like buying a TV to listen to the radio channels.
He has come largely as advertised, a Hayden style deep sitting defensive minded player. That's fine btw and he's been quite good at it, that type of player is important in this league, and can still be valuable to us and for someone else in the future, especially as he occasionally does showcase excellent technique and passing. (Forget the goal, it was stunning but essentially a one off - even Karl Henry found a pinger down the back of the sofa occasionally).
With that said, I have no idea why Marti didn't switch him with Field when he came on, or decide that this was the game/time/place to try him ahead of the base of midfield - especially with Morgan available. IMO, one of Field OR Varane needs to be deep and paired with Morgan/Colback. Field is capable of playing a little further forwards, mainly through endeavour, but he's not naturally suited to it at all.
Anyway thanks for the usual cathartism and articulating why I've spent the last 24hrs stopping in my tracks and swearing under my breath... These late losses really stick to you. [Post edited 13 Feb 2:31]
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| ask Beavis I get nothing Butthead |
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| In the blue corner – Report on 07:17 - Feb 13 with 2210 views | mart_Goblin |
Great report Clive .
I stormed to bed with the right arseache shortly after the full time whistle like a big man child .
Pathetic really , but I just couldn’t see us not getting anything at all .
Still got the hump a bit |  | | |
| In the blue corner – Report on 07:59 - Feb 13 with 2081 views | loftus77 |
'Theirs was an ebullient first movement, purposeful and threatening, like a Vaughan Williams symphony.' Absolutely. Superb analogy, superb report, fkn annoying result. Thank you. |  | | |
| In the blue corner – Report on 08:12 - Feb 13 with 2031 views | stevec |
I wonder if we spend too much time going after the wrong protagonists.
Generally, we’ve risen from 24th to 13th courtesy of a goalkeeper, back four and CDM that largely works.
When your CDM matches the total number of goals as the three in front of them, you’ve got a problem. When your right back has outscored all of the three number tens put together, it’s a wonder we’re not staring into the abyss.
Chair - 0 goals
Smyth - 1 goal (solo effort)
Saito - 1 goal (solo effort)
Morgan - 1 goal (in fact the only goal where the forward 3 linked up for a goal, vaguely recall from Smyth cross)
It’s not just the lack of goals from that department but more worrying is the total lack of link up in the few goals they have scored.
Admittedly only watching the Coventry game via a tv screen so I stand to be corrected but one ‘move’ summed up a serious problem in this side.
At one point, Saito picked the ball up deep in our own half, on the left, and brilliantly took on and beat a number of marking players. He correctly cut infield, into wide open space and rightly ran with it, probably some 50 yards of ball. In all that time he was looking ahead, as was i. What I saw, and I suspect he saw was Frey isolated up front, Smyth for some reason didn’t come into picture at all and Chair, the only player out of possession, sprinting up, aware what he should be doing, but despite Saito having carried a ball for best part of 50 yards, still Chair hadn’t even got level with him.
Smyth should have been making a diagonal run across their defence, Frey could then have gained room to make his own run and Chair should have arrived far sooner than he did. None of this happened, Saito had no where to go any more, got dispossessed by a tracking back midfielder and ended up looking the mug when it really wasn’t his fault.
Everything around him was simply not good enough. The problem is a mindset of players who don’t score enough goals, don’t link up as a three.
Could Paal do better, probably. Could Varane step a few yards further up the pitch, maybe but ultimately these are just sideshows to the deficiencies in front of them. |  | | |
| In the blue corner – Report on 09:56 - Feb 13 with 1740 views | thehat |
Thanks Clive spot on as always.
I've still got the bang needle this morning with the outcome. Mainly because of our 3 corners in stoppage time and Paal letting the ball go out for a throw which started the chain of events that led to their goal.
Anyway we are still 11 points off relegation and a big Friday night game under the lights to come this week. I would love to put a nail in Derby's coffin Friday especially after our pathetic performance up their place earlier this season.
At my age it should not be the case that my moods are so attached to this bloody football club.......My poor wife suffers every time.....and she doesn't even get to go out this Valentines evening because of it..... | | | |
| In the blue corner – Report on 10:46 - Feb 13 with 1582 views | Superhoop83 |
That last minute goal was a complete sickener, but we've been there before with Coventry.
In 2007 we were drawing 1-1 with them at home and the match was in injury time. Coventry had a free kick on the corner of our box and my mate said to me "Oh well, a draw isn't too bad". Cue a Kevin Kyle header and a 2-1 defeat and me having a right go at my mate.
Up there with the time another mate said to me "Hinchcliffe will never score from there". |  |
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| In the blue corner – Report on 12:40 - Feb 13 with 1333 views | Wilkinswatercarrier |
Great report and I can sense your frustration. This team, under this manager are ready to kick on, but I do look at some of these players and realise they won't be able to.
That game and Millwall were there for the taking. The next two seasons, with some better on the ball players coming in, I fully expect us to be winning these type of games and challenging at the top.
We are still on a big improvement curve, and it's a little exciting watching what we are going to become. | | | |
| In the blue corner – Report on 13:56 - Feb 13 with 1098 views | Hunterhoop |
| In the blue corner – Report on 02:21 - Feb 13 by simmo |
I think we disagree slightly on your expectation/desire for Varane to take his game further forward... IMO he is not an advanced midfielder that will be busting into the box and getting goals and assists consistently, and probably never will be. Asking him to do it is like buying a TV to listen to the radio channels.
He has come largely as advertised, a Hayden style deep sitting defensive minded player. That's fine btw and he's been quite good at it, that type of player is important in this league, and can still be valuable to us and for someone else in the future, especially as he occasionally does showcase excellent technique and passing. (Forget the goal, it was stunning but essentially a one off - even Karl Henry found a pinger down the back of the sofa occasionally).
With that said, I have no idea why Marti didn't switch him with Field when he came on, or decide that this was the game/time/place to try him ahead of the base of midfield - especially with Morgan available. IMO, one of Field OR Varane needs to be deep and paired with Morgan/Colback. Field is capable of playing a little further forwards, mainly through endeavour, but he's not naturally suited to it at all.
Anyway thanks for the usual cathartism and articulating why I've spent the last 24hrs stopping in my tracks and swearing under my breath... These late losses really stick to you. [Post edited 13 Feb 2:31]
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I keep saying this, but during the good run, and for most of this season we have played 4141, not 4231.
We have only played with one pivot at holding midfield. Early in the season it was Field often with Andersen and Madsen ahead of him as the central 2 in that 4. It was a disaster for all their immobility and softness, and Fields weakness at playing it forward to feet.
We switched this up just as the good run began, where Varane went into the single pivot role and Field and Morgan fulfilled the central 2 positions in the midfield 4. Suddenly legs, tackling, energy. They made the whole system work. Field worked well wide with Saito/Chair on the left, and Morgan did likewise with on the right. Morgan was slightly more pushed on, and Field a little deeper so they weren’t a flat two and created angles in the middle. Both got forward into the box (3 goals for Field in this spell), and both tracked back.
I actually think Field was very well suited to this role because he enabled to us press well effectively and on cue. It also meant he wasn’t having to start attacks from the base of midfield.
Against Blackburn, by dropping Varane, Field went back into the role of single pivot. Morgan went into Field’s role, and Chair came in and played the furthest forward. It worked against Blackburn because a) tactically they failed to address our change and new shape, b) Chair played very well, and c) Field did actually pass the ball well from the base. But it was more open.
Against Coventry, Colback replaced Morgan. The issue was a) Chair was poor and never got in the game and gave it away when he did, b) Field played too many hopeful punts and wasn’t cultured enough, and c) when Varane came on he played in the midfield 4, whilst Field stayed at the pivot. It didn’t work. We needed him to swap with Field.
Also worth noting at half time on Tues, our midfield had not made a single tackle yet. Colback and Chair simply nowhere near as effective as Field and Morgan out of possession, but also with few chances created with it.
Having Morgan and Field as the central 2 in a 4141, with a Varane behind, allows them to press with conviction and get stuck in. Our tackle count goes up, we win the ball higher up the pitch, and we are harder to play against. If we’re being outplayed, or dominated, they can effectively drop back into a deep 3 with a low block. With Chair and Colback in this two roles (similar to Madsen and Andersen) they simply can’t press as effectively or commit to tackles without the risk of the oppo beating their press regularly and then marauding through the middle of the pitch, so they half commit.
If you’re not going to play Varane, I’d be tempted to play Colback there, tell him to sit and stay goal side and utilise his passing, and instead have Field do the running, pressing and competing.
Personally, and I might be in the minority, I think the best midfield 3 is Varane, Field, Morgan in a 4141. However, that presents the conundrum of Chair. And, I will be in the minority in saying, Chair wouldn’t start for me. The system is more important than individuals, and so he’s competing for the role wide left. On current form, Saito is playing much better, so should start. Sacrilegious, I know.
This season our performances and results correlate with our tackle count, I believe, more so than anything else. |  | | |
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| In the blue corner – Report on 14:53 - Feb 13 with 969 views | simmo |
That is the way I've seen it, with the single pivot, I don't see that we've played an outright 4231 at any point, it's always been 4-1-something. I think we only disagree that Field is good enough to be one of the other midfielders further ahead. He has the work rate, endeavour and off the ball makes us much much more resilient, but in possession he's just not good enough (except every 10-15 games where he suddenly gets a brace). I'm not against him playing there at all, I just think he should be nothing more than a stop gap there until we find a permanent solution with a player more suited.
As we both mentioned, the change at Cov should have been Varane for Field (positionally), and we either moved Field up or we brought on Morgan. I would exclusively have Field or Varane in the single pivot position, with at least one of Colback/Morgan ahead. I would also personally keep Chair there, esp at home, to build on what worked against Blackburn and to keep Saito in as a starter, but I appreciate there's an argument to drop someone. The plot will thicken further if Dembele comes back strong! [Post edited 13 Feb 14:58]
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| ask Beavis I get nothing Butthead |
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| In the blue corner – Report on 15:25 - Feb 13 with 884 views | extratimeR |
Just thought I would mention that I haven't been so pissed off after a game, since we lost in last minute at Shef Wednesday.
Some good comments above especially the amount of goals our forwards have scored.
I was thinking during the Bristol City away game how many nailed on goals do our defenders/keeper save? and how many nailed on goals do our forwards miss? | | | |
| In the blue corner – Report on 16:51 - Feb 13 with 705 views | Wilkinswatercarrier |
| In the blue corner – Report on 15:25 - Feb 13 by extratimeR |
Just thought I would mention that I haven't been so pissed off after a game, since we lost in last minute at Shef Wednesday.
Some good comments above especially the amount of goals our forwards have scored.
I was thinking during the Bristol City away game how many nailed on goals do our defenders/keeper save? and how many nailed on goals do our forwards miss? |
We have almost zero goal threat or creativity in that central midfield area. This means teams can double up on the 10 and wingers knowing if the ball goes inside to Field or Varane, they are not going to thread a pass, etc.
It is the biggest problem in the team, and we won't move forward until it is fixed, hopefully in the summer. | | | |
| In the blue corner – Report on 17:43 - Feb 13 with 598 views | mart_Goblin |
I understand all the criticism as regards to no goal threat . Frey isn’t going to create too much himself but he isn’t that type of player . He is it seems a good penalty area finisher but not great as the chance Tuesday and at Plymouth showed .
I would suggest the lack of goal threat lays elsewhere rather than solely at Freys feet . So with that in mind , the player ratings for Tuesday on this site have blown my mind . Frey the lowest with 4.7??
Lower than Paal.
Take the chance created by Paal for Frey out of the equation although I understand it must play a part, but was Frey that bad ???
On the contrary, I thought we missed Frey’s presence immediately once he was substituted. | | | |
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