| Sir Tim…. 14:32 - Dec 30 with 15760 views | colinallcars |
Well, we had Sir Tom, now Spoons owner Tim Martin knighted.
He's had a fair bit of help from me. |  | | |  |
| Sir Tim…. on 20:10 - Dec 31 with 2518 views | loftboy |
| Sir Tim…. on 19:17 - Dec 31 by Jimthehip |
It's amazing isn't it?
The free speech guys are the first to pull out the "oh no football and politics doesn't mix" when it comes to brown kids being genocided and burnt to shreds (i have videos of kids bodies charred to crisp and dozens of then on my socials)... and yeah, the ad hominems and the "ooh he just wants attention" posts. It's stunning how liberals and conservatives go 180 on a subject when it suits them!
It's true that I began posting in November but I've read loft for words for over a decade. What made me post (and yeah intentionally bring up Palestine) was the post on here in October by one the right-wing "patriots" who "would die for free speech" saying that felting fans should be ashamed for waving Palestinian flags. There were no "ooh football and politics doesnt mix" comments then.
Now, these posters arethe ones whom over the last decade have been all about "freedom", and against the "immigrants forcing their will on us" and "anti-free speech woke brigade" and pro national self-determination.. Well, my fellow "antisemitic corbynista britain-hater", you are my star witness- here is a golden chance for these patriots to show that they stand by what they say. A literal invading colonising 76 year old occupation killing kids and women to the tune of tens of thousands is happening. This is there chance to show they support self determination and and a dismay for oppression. But no, they like all liberals and conservative and just like South Africa and Ireland, the Liberal will always side with coloniser. The free speech warriors are perfectly happy watching people being silenced and will gladly look away from the evidence and recorded history.
I want people on here to see who they are. I want them to look reality in the face. I want them to know that "but hamas" is the language of the brainwashed and pripagandised and is, given just a tiny amount of research and intellectual honesty can be shown to lies But I want them to know most of all, that we see you. Tens of millions of working class people of all faiths in this country have the guts that you don't and that hundreds of millions around the world are not as brainwashed as you.
And haha yeah don't worry about the insults - I've had death threats on my social media and have seen accounts of police arresting people fir exposing the genocide of Palestinians. A few liberals and conservatives throwing insults on a qpr forum ain't gonna stop me.
Come to the march on the 13th. We had a million in London in November
Happy new year to everyone |
Deleted for Clive’s sake. [Post edited 31 Dec 2023 20:38]
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| Sir Tim…. on 20:14 - Dec 31 with 2508 views | Gus_iom |
| Sir Tim…. on 20:10 - Dec 31 by loftboy |
Deleted for Clive’s sake. [Post edited 31 Dec 2023 20:38]
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Actually no, let's all give Clive a break. [Post edited 31 Dec 2023 20:15]
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| Sir Tim…. on 20:24 - Dec 31 with 2461 views | Sharpy36 |
| Sir Tim…. on 19:17 - Dec 31 by Jimthehip |
It's amazing isn't it?
The free speech guys are the first to pull out the "oh no football and politics doesn't mix" when it comes to brown kids being genocided and burnt to shreds (i have videos of kids bodies charred to crisp and dozens of then on my socials)... and yeah, the ad hominems and the "ooh he just wants attention" posts. It's stunning how liberals and conservatives go 180 on a subject when it suits them!
It's true that I began posting in November but I've read loft for words for over a decade. What made me post (and yeah intentionally bring up Palestine) was the post on here in October by one the right-wing "patriots" who "would die for free speech" saying that felting fans should be ashamed for waving Palestinian flags. There were no "ooh football and politics doesnt mix" comments then.
Now, these posters arethe ones whom over the last decade have been all about "freedom", and against the "immigrants forcing their will on us" and "anti-free speech woke brigade" and pro national self-determination.. Well, my fellow "antisemitic corbynista britain-hater", you are my star witness- here is a golden chance for these patriots to show that they stand by what they say. A literal invading colonising 76 year old occupation killing kids and women to the tune of tens of thousands is happening. This is there chance to show they support self determination and and a dismay for oppression. But no, they like all liberals and conservative and just like South Africa and Ireland, the Liberal will always side with coloniser. The free speech warriors are perfectly happy watching people being silenced and will gladly look away from the evidence and recorded history.
I want people on here to see who they are. I want them to look reality in the face. I want them to know that "but hamas" is the language of the brainwashed and pripagandised and is, given just a tiny amount of research and intellectual honesty can be shown to lies But I want them to know most of all, that we see you. Tens of millions of working class people of all faiths in this country have the guts that you don't and that hundreds of millions around the world are not as brainwashed as you.
And haha yeah don't worry about the insults - I've had death threats on my social media and have seen accounts of police arresting people fir exposing the genocide of Palestinians. A few liberals and conservatives throwing insults on a qpr forum ain't gonna stop me.
Come to the march on the 13th. We had a million in London in November
Happy new year to everyone |
Iv`e come out of semi-LFW retirement to just say.
You earlier posted that the MSM in this country are lying to us(yes we know), but are happy to quote statistics from the propaganda arm of hamas. The same terrorist organization that are using mock videos shot in gazza to gain support within the arab world and the left leaning in amongst the west. Every video from SM you have, i could counter it with a widely shared "PallyWood" production. In one case alone it has been proved one crisis actor has four different parts to play, shall we call him Mr FAFO for those bothered enough to see him on twitter.
But what worry`s me more is your seemingly lack of morale fibre when denouncing hamas of it`s crimes against women and children, those crimes which led us to where we are today, and a another un-truth you muttered about hamas not having a military capability, all those missiles being fired in to Israel. Or was it the MSM lying again ? |  |
| 'You didn't know that was wrong, but now you do. If you do it again, I'll know you are doing it on purpose.' |
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| Sir Tim…. on 20:39 - Dec 31 with 2440 views | loftboy |
| Sir Tim…. on 20:14 - Dec 31 by Gus_iom |
Actually no, let's all give Clive a break. [Post edited 31 Dec 2023 20:15]
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Yes you are right, comment deleted ,shouldn’t have lowered myself. | |
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| Sir Tim…. on 20:45 - Dec 31 with 2423 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| Sir Tim…. on 20:14 - Dec 31 by Gus_iom |
Actually no, let's all give Clive a break. [Post edited 31 Dec 2023 20:15]
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100% agree.
Jim is clearly in pain here, and to be fair to him he didn't introduce this conversation to this thread. It just escalated once he responded. We've all been there.
I'd be happy to chat with anyone by PM about how I think Jim is making many, many valid points here, and how anyone could educate me more. But maybe by PM, and maybe tomorrow :)
I think that as it's New Year's Eve, and as Clive has recently asked us to refrain from political threads, we might take a step back tonight.
And respect his views and recent posts about taking politics away from this board as much as possible.
Hope that didn't come across preachy.
Peace to you all for the year ahead. |  |
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| Sir Tim…. on 21:31 - Dec 31 with 2308 views | essextaxiboy |
| Sir Tim…. on 15:42 - Dec 31 by NoDiddley |
Have you ever tried the Basildon one? Moon over the water or suchlike, went in there a good few years ago on a Friday afternoon, about 5ish these 2 burly fellas wearing black shirts & armbands asked us to vacate the stools we were sitting on. When we asked why, they just replied “To stop the drunk fcukers hitting each over the head with them later on”
Nice |
It’s the Moon On The Square . When I was on the taxi circuit I have watched chairs come flying through the windows one Saturday night . |  | | |
| Sir Tim…. on 21:53 - Dec 31 with 2267 views | Paddyhoops |
| Sir Tim…. on 20:45 - Dec 31 by BrianMcCarthy |
100% agree.
Jim is clearly in pain here, and to be fair to him he didn't introduce this conversation to this thread. It just escalated once he responded. We've all been there.
I'd be happy to chat with anyone by PM about how I think Jim is making many, many valid points here, and how anyone could educate me more. But maybe by PM, and maybe tomorrow :)
I think that as it's New Year's Eve, and as Clive has recently asked us to refrain from political threads, we might take a step back tonight.
And respect his views and recent posts about taking politics away from this board as much as possible.
Hope that didn't come across preachy.
Peace to you all for the year ahead. |
Agreed. Not particularly enamoured by the situation in Gaza myself . Decided to donate a monthly fee to a reputable charity looking after children’s health out there.
It’s my way of doing something despite how little.
This was a thread about Tim Martin . Should have stayed that way and not be a platform for tit for tat.
Happy new year to everyone and especially Clive . A shining light in another turd of a QPR year. | | | |
| Sir Tim…. on 22:00 - Dec 31 with 2222 views | Jimthehip |
| Sir Tim…. on 20:24 - Dec 31 by Sharpy36 |
Iv`e come out of semi-LFW retirement to just say.
You earlier posted that the MSM in this country are lying to us(yes we know), but are happy to quote statistics from the propaganda arm of hamas. The same terrorist organization that are using mock videos shot in gazza to gain support within the arab world and the left leaning in amongst the west. Every video from SM you have, i could counter it with a widely shared "PallyWood" production. In one case alone it has been proved one crisis actor has four different parts to play, shall we call him Mr FAFO for those bothered enough to see him on twitter.
But what worry`s me more is your seemingly lack of morale fibre when denouncing hamas of it`s crimes against women and children, those crimes which led us to where we are today, and a another un-truth you muttered about hamas not having a military capability, all those missiles being fired in to Israel. Or was it the MSM lying again ? |
Wow.
I've screenshot this. This comment is the definition of weaponised ignorance.
"Pallywood" - really?! Wow. You're a proper genocidal scum bag aren't you?
Regarding, "the crimes of hamas" which ones are you referring to? "The beheaded babies" or the " mass rapes" all claims repeated and believed in England and the USA but have np direct evidence of. Regarding 7th of October, the burnt houses and people are burnt in the exact same way as the Palestinians homes and children are burnt and the European settlers in occupied Palestine have all sworm testimony that settler IOF fired on them. The 1400 as also been revised down to 700 dead now.
Besides, even if every lie told about the 7th was true that does mot justify yye 76 year long destruction of defenceless indigenous Palestinians.
I must say though having an English man have the arrogance to "condemm " people trying to resist colonisation is staggering.
You o
You're a disgrace but not surprising and very apt of the ignorant "middle class" westerner whom is convinced he is the centre of the world's civilised
You on Instagram? Follow me there @jimthehip and you tell me which of the 200 videos of children with their heads burnt off are staged. We can go through one video at a time. |  | | |
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| Sir Tim…. on 22:02 - Dec 31 with 2219 views | Jimthehip |
| Sir Tim…. on 20:45 - Dec 31 by BrianMcCarthy |
100% agree.
Jim is clearly in pain here, and to be fair to him he didn't introduce this conversation to this thread. It just escalated once he responded. We've all been there.
I'd be happy to chat with anyone by PM about how I think Jim is making many, many valid points here, and how anyone could educate me more. But maybe by PM, and maybe tomorrow :)
I think that as it's New Year's Eve, and as Clive has recently asked us to refrain from political threads, we might take a step back tonight.
And respect his views and recent posts about taking politics away from this board as much as possible.
Hope that didn't come across preachy.
Peace to you all for the year ahead. |
What a respectful and intelligent comment.
I'm in agony mate. My hands shake with rage when I have people telling me that this is "pallywood" and is staged. Honestly, f'cking shaking with anger at that.
Anyway,
C'mon urrsss! | | | |
| Sir Tim…. on 11:27 - Jan 1 with 1931 views | Jimthehip |
| Sir Tim…. on 19:33 - Dec 31 by Boston |
I'd contact the Samaritans if I were you, oh hang on... [Post edited 31 Dec 2023 19:34]
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It's called being human. It's called being intellectually honest enough to go through the propaganda of our government and find the evidence yourself and think independently.
However, I'm the majority. The whole world opposes the genocide of gaza. It is only the "free nations" (the USA, Britain and west europe) That supports and actively finances this genocide and sells the weapons that do it. I mean, you can read about rishi sunaks (the unelected rishi sunak) own financial interests in killing gazans. You dont think that's something you hear that happens in the evil "rogue " states we're told to fear so much? Not a lovely democracy like ours Shirley?!
I think if there was one event that would show the world how backwards and authortarian and bloodthirsty the rulers of America and our "democracy " is it would be this. The whole world votes for a ceasefire at the UN (153 nations voted feasefire) but the USA sells the weapons that kill the children and Israel is its client state, so despite the world wantung it to end children corpses keep multiplying.
Noone is safe from the US empire. A thousand military bases across the world. A trillion dollar a year military budget. The workds biggest prison population. The world is held hostage by the USA and Britain is nothing more that US client state now, an arms factory based in Europe with falling living standards, bad weather and a media that lies to us.
Happy new year urrsss [Post edited 1 Jan 11:30]
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| Sir Tim…. on 11:32 - Jan 1 with 1918 views | Jimthehip |
| Sir Tim…. on 20:06 - Dec 31 by NoDiddley |
Just curious, what’s Jimthehip relate to? Replacement or hippy? |
No it's a reference to the poet America baraka.
A black panther and artist. Check him out he's great👍 | | | |
| Sir Tim…. on 13:30 - Jan 1 with 1808 views | traininvain |
| Sir Tim…. on 11:27 - Jan 1 by Jimthehip |
It's called being human. It's called being intellectually honest enough to go through the propaganda of our government and find the evidence yourself and think independently.
However, I'm the majority. The whole world opposes the genocide of gaza. It is only the "free nations" (the USA, Britain and west europe) That supports and actively finances this genocide and sells the weapons that do it. I mean, you can read about rishi sunaks (the unelected rishi sunak) own financial interests in killing gazans. You dont think that's something you hear that happens in the evil "rogue " states we're told to fear so much? Not a lovely democracy like ours Shirley?!
I think if there was one event that would show the world how backwards and authortarian and bloodthirsty the rulers of America and our "democracy " is it would be this. The whole world votes for a ceasefire at the UN (153 nations voted feasefire) but the USA sells the weapons that kill the children and Israel is its client state, so despite the world wantung it to end children corpses keep multiplying.
Noone is safe from the US empire. A thousand military bases across the world. A trillion dollar a year military budget. The workds biggest prison population. The world is held hostage by the USA and Britain is nothing more that US client state now, an arms factory based in Europe with falling living standards, bad weather and a media that lies to us.
Happy new year urrsss [Post edited 1 Jan 11:30]
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Give it a rest and get off your soap box. Most of us are well aware of all the evil sh1t going on in the world (most of which we have no control over) and we come on here as a form of escape.
I’m sure plenty of people on Reddit ( https://www.reddit.com/) would welcome the opportunity to discuss wars, politics, conspiracies etc until your hearts content. |  | | |
| Sir Tim…. on 13:56 - Jan 1 with 1765 views | flynnbo |
| Sir Tim…. on 13:30 - Jan 1 by traininvain |
Give it a rest and get off your soap box. Most of us are well aware of all the evil sh1t going on in the world (most of which we have no control over) and we come on here as a form of escape.
I’m sure plenty of people on Reddit ( https://www.reddit.com/) would welcome the opportunity to discuss wars, politics, conspiracies etc until your hearts content. |
Sorry, fat fingers. |  | | |
| Sir Tim…. on 14:06 - Jan 1 with 1734 views | johann28 |
New Year's resolutions - give Clive some money, and block political extremism / conspiracy theorists (on both sides) - this makes this thread readable all of sudden.
Now, where was I? A potentially interesting thread about Wetherspoons.
Love Spoons in many ways, which clearly occupy a strange place in British culture. It's kind of egalitarian ideal – a communal boozing atmosphere unified by ridiculously cheap pints, a place where middle-class art students can brush shoulders with elderly border-line alcoholics such as myself, united in their love of the budget boozer. The pub chain’s cheap point of entry makes it a unifying place in otherwise divided times: a place of legend (“Have you heard about the carpets? No two are the same”), and of pretty decent food - my mum's last meal on earth was in a place called Blue Bell Inn, in Scunthorpe, which, she declared was 'the best fish and chips she'd ever had'. Now, you don't argue with mum, who died aged 92 last year.
But the corporate entity headed by the aggressively 'Vote Leave'-donating Tim Martin is a whole other beast. Founded at a time when the hospitality industry struggled on tight margins and pubs had been experiencing mass closures, the chain turned a pre-tax profit of £102.5m pre-Covid. It’s this conflicting identity – egalitarianism meets rightwing Euroscepticism and well-documented poor worker relations – that makes me ambivalent. It was nauseating (regardless of which side you're on) that Wetherspoons became a useful political tool for Martin’s Brexiteering and producing posters for its pubs – part-promotion, part-propaganda – that praised the chancellor for his VAT cuts during the Covid bailout package - with Rishi Sunak’s grin plastered across the top, the advert read, “Dishi Rishi, legend: the man who instigated tax equality between supermarkets and pubs,” next to a picture of a fry-up. By sheer coincidence of course, these and other posters made their way into publications such as the Daily Mail, where a news story on the low prices merited a full-page reproduction. Remember also that in March, Martin refused to close pubs until forced to by the lockdown, arguing it would do nothing to stop the spread of Covid-19. (At the time, the number of cases of the virus was at about 400, rising to more than a thousand in the same week). Once Boris Johnson mandated the closure of pubs and restaurants, Martin said he couldn’t afford to pay staff before the introduction of a government scheme, leaving around 40,000 workers to find work elsewhere. That he only finally agreed to pay staff when the furlough scheme was announced says it all.
So, I love it - and hate it. Won't stop me going because I love cheap ale, and I loved my mum. |  | | |
| Sir Tim…. on 14:09 - Jan 1 with 1687 views | SheffieldHoop |
Will QPRKirty be along shortly to inform us which is the "Right" and "Wrong" side of this argument? I'm desperate to find out  |  |
| "Someone despises me. That's their problem." Marcus Aurelius |
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| Sir Tim…. on 14:30 - Jan 1 with 1647 views | Jimthehip |
| Sir Tim…. on 13:30 - Jan 1 by traininvain |
Give it a rest and get off your soap box. Most of us are well aware of all the evil sh1t going on in the world (most of which we have no control over) and we come on here as a form of escape.
I’m sure plenty of people on Reddit ( https://www.reddit.com/) would welcome the opportunity to discuss wars, politics, conspiracies etc until your hearts content. |
Everything I've posted is a fact and is a matter of public record.Youcan read every detail in "The hundred years war on Palestine" by Rhashid Khalidi or "The ethnic cleansing of Palestine" by Ilan Pappe among countless other books detailing the colonisation of Palestine. I have PDFs I can send you and I have all the footage of what I'm claiming on my instagram account which you can follow @jimthehip. Don't take my word for it - read and learn about it.
There is no counter argument besides labelling the majority who can see it happening in realtime as "anti-semitic", "extremist" or "conspiracy"
Bieng in the centre of a debate doesn't neccessarily mean you are moderate. at the moment yours is the position of the extremist. Refusing to acknowledge what is happening is a form of genocide of denial. Besides, we CAN and we Must do something to try to stop this. We can march, we can boycott, we can agitate. Just like we did for South Africa.
anyway, I'll leave it at that.
C'mon urrrssss | | | |
| Sir Tim…. on 14:39 - Jan 1 with 1620 views | BrianMcCarthy |
Being brought up in the pub trade, we've always considered Weatherspoons the McDonalds of the industry and getting to know the odious owner hasn't endeared me any more to them.
There are four pubs in Ireland and they're selling up, thank Christ.
As for the ludicrous British honours system I've always thought slightly less of anyone that accepted one. In Tim Martin's case, that's not possible. | |
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| Sir Tim…. on 15:18 - Jan 1 with 1553 views | HoopinEssex |
| Sir Tim…. on 14:39 - Jan 1 by BrianMcCarthy |
Being brought up in the pub trade, we've always considered Weatherspoons the McDonalds of the industry and getting to know the odious owner hasn't endeared me any more to them.
There are four pubs in Ireland and they're selling up, thank Christ.
As for the ludicrous British honours system I've always thought slightly less of anyone that accepted one. In Tim Martin's case, that's not possible. |
I get what your saying Brian. But Weatherspoons does serve a purpose especially here in London. Few old fellas I know would never be able to afford to go out for a pint if it wasn't for these pubs | | | |
| Sir Tim…. on 15:55 - Jan 1 with 1507 views | Jimthehip |
| Sir Tim…. on 15:18 - Jan 1 by HoopinEssex |
I get what your saying Brian. But Weatherspoons does serve a purpose especially here in London. Few old fellas I know would never be able to afford to go out for a pint if it wasn't for these pubs |
Yes that's the reason people go. they cannot afford to drink anywhere else. Its a monopoly. | | | |
| Sir Tim…. (n/t) on 19:51 - Jan 1 with 1401 views | Jimthehip |
| Sir Tim…. on 13:30 - Jan 1 by traininvain |
Give it a rest and get off your soap box. Most of us are well aware of all the evil sh1t going on in the world (most of which we have no control over) and we come on here as a form of escape.
I’m sure plenty of people on Reddit ( https://www.reddit.com/) would welcome the opportunity to discuss wars, politics, conspiracies etc until your hearts content. |
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| Sir Tim…. on 00:47 - Jan 2 with 1279 views | E17hoop |
| Sir Tim…. on 19:17 - Dec 31 by Jimthehip |
It's amazing isn't it?
The free speech guys are the first to pull out the "oh no football and politics doesn't mix" when it comes to brown kids being genocided and burnt to shreds (i have videos of kids bodies charred to crisp and dozens of then on my socials)... and yeah, the ad hominems and the "ooh he just wants attention" posts. It's stunning how liberals and conservatives go 180 on a subject when it suits them!
It's true that I began posting in November but I've read loft for words for over a decade. What made me post (and yeah intentionally bring up Palestine) was the post on here in October by one the right-wing "patriots" who "would die for free speech" saying that felting fans should be ashamed for waving Palestinian flags. There were no "ooh football and politics doesnt mix" comments then.
Now, these posters arethe ones whom over the last decade have been all about "freedom", and against the "immigrants forcing their will on us" and "anti-free speech woke brigade" and pro national self-determination.. Well, my fellow "antisemitic corbynista britain-hater", you are my star witness- here is a golden chance for these patriots to show that they stand by what they say. A literal invading colonising 76 year old occupation killing kids and women to the tune of tens of thousands is happening. This is there chance to show they support self determination and and a dismay for oppression. But no, they like all liberals and conservative and just like South Africa and Ireland, the Liberal will always side with coloniser. The free speech warriors are perfectly happy watching people being silenced and will gladly look away from the evidence and recorded history.
I want people on here to see who they are. I want them to look reality in the face. I want them to know that "but hamas" is the language of the brainwashed and pripagandised and is, given just a tiny amount of research and intellectual honesty can be shown to lies But I want them to know most of all, that we see you. Tens of millions of working class people of all faiths in this country have the guts that you don't and that hundreds of millions around the world are not as brainwashed as you.
And haha yeah don't worry about the insults - I've had death threats on my social media and have seen accounts of police arresting people fir exposing the genocide of Palestinians. A few liberals and conservatives throwing insults on a qpr forum ain't gonna stop me.
Come to the march on the 13th. We had a million in London in November
Happy new year to everyone |
There is so much to reply to here and I am really trying not to be overemotional.
Your activism is admirable in its enthusiasm. I assume you have also been campaigning against Turkey to the same degree for their invasion of the Kurdish homelands? I am not picking on Turkey here but they are an interesting example for comparison - I could quite easily have referred to Sudan, Syria, China, Myanmar, South Sudan, Ethiopia, Afghanistan, etc. I assume your activism extends to every one of these nations too?
I wanted to identify another nation where comparators can be made to what is happening in Gaza but they doo not happen - and there's a reason they don't.
Turkey receives over nine times the amount of military hardware from the UK than Israel does and has, over the last 80 years, suppressed Kurdish nationalism. Kurdish newspapers are banned, as are political parties and community groups - many Kurdish-language schools that were closed by the government in 2016 and 2017 remained closed. The Turkish government’s prohibition of several letters from the Kurdish alphabet prevents Kurds from giving their children Kurdish names.
There have been over 40k casualties between the Kurds and the Turks in the last 40 years, and somewhere between 1 and 3 million Kurdish people have been displaced and restricted from living in specific areas. Similarly, I also don't see anyone asking Turkey to give up Northern Cyprus - an area they have occupied for 50 years - which displaced over 160k Greek Cypriots.
Why are there no million marches against the Turkish? Why are there no calls to boycott Turkish products? Why are people with Turkish heritage not asked to censure and condemn their country's actions?
History didn't start in 1948. A reason I chose Turkey was that, before it was Palestine, it was the Turkish Ottoman empire who occupied the area from 1516, When the 1934 Resettlement Law came into effect in the Turkish republic, about 15k Jews of Turkish origin, joined the tens of thousand of other Turkish heritage Jews in the Palestinian area. It was the Turkish actions over centuries which led to the creation of a large Jewish population in Palestine. If your bile is aimed at solely at the US, UK, and Israel, you need to look harder at the history of the area.
As I said above, this is not an anti-Turkish post by any margin. It is simply to identify that similar actions happen around the world, all the time, yet there are no public outpourings of animosity or anger against these nations. The last march against the treatment of the Uyghurs in China attracted a little over 2k people although an estimated 1.3m are in camps and being erased.
The book you mentioned is excellent, but it is written by an Americans Palestinian. Have you read any books by Israeli Americans? For example, History of Israel: From the Rise of Zionism to Our Time by Howard Sachar is an incredible work.
I would also take issue with your view of public record. An internet video is not a public record - it is a personal video made public. A public record is generally accepted as such if it has been filed with or recorded by a government agency or public office.
I would also be wary of your excuse of Hamas. Their military wing has been proscribed as a terrorist organisation by over 30 states across the world, including Egypt. if you are aligning yourself with Hamas, you will receive no support here. |  |
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| Sir Tim…. on 02:25 - Jan 2 with 1235 views | Jimthehip |
| Sir Tim…. on 00:47 - Jan 2 by E17hoop |
There is so much to reply to here and I am really trying not to be overemotional.
Your activism is admirable in its enthusiasm. I assume you have also been campaigning against Turkey to the same degree for their invasion of the Kurdish homelands? I am not picking on Turkey here but they are an interesting example for comparison - I could quite easily have referred to Sudan, Syria, China, Myanmar, South Sudan, Ethiopia, Afghanistan, etc. I assume your activism extends to every one of these nations too?
I wanted to identify another nation where comparators can be made to what is happening in Gaza but they doo not happen - and there's a reason they don't.
Turkey receives over nine times the amount of military hardware from the UK than Israel does and has, over the last 80 years, suppressed Kurdish nationalism. Kurdish newspapers are banned, as are political parties and community groups - many Kurdish-language schools that were closed by the government in 2016 and 2017 remained closed. The Turkish government’s prohibition of several letters from the Kurdish alphabet prevents Kurds from giving their children Kurdish names.
There have been over 40k casualties between the Kurds and the Turks in the last 40 years, and somewhere between 1 and 3 million Kurdish people have been displaced and restricted from living in specific areas. Similarly, I also don't see anyone asking Turkey to give up Northern Cyprus - an area they have occupied for 50 years - which displaced over 160k Greek Cypriots.
Why are there no million marches against the Turkish? Why are there no calls to boycott Turkish products? Why are people with Turkish heritage not asked to censure and condemn their country's actions?
History didn't start in 1948. A reason I chose Turkey was that, before it was Palestine, it was the Turkish Ottoman empire who occupied the area from 1516, When the 1934 Resettlement Law came into effect in the Turkish republic, about 15k Jews of Turkish origin, joined the tens of thousand of other Turkish heritage Jews in the Palestinian area. It was the Turkish actions over centuries which led to the creation of a large Jewish population in Palestine. If your bile is aimed at solely at the US, UK, and Israel, you need to look harder at the history of the area.
As I said above, this is not an anti-Turkish post by any margin. It is simply to identify that similar actions happen around the world, all the time, yet there are no public outpourings of animosity or anger against these nations. The last march against the treatment of the Uyghurs in China attracted a little over 2k people although an estimated 1.3m are in camps and being erased.
The book you mentioned is excellent, but it is written by an Americans Palestinian. Have you read any books by Israeli Americans? For example, History of Israel: From the Rise of Zionism to Our Time by Howard Sachar is an incredible work.
I would also take issue with your view of public record. An internet video is not a public record - it is a personal video made public. A public record is generally accepted as such if it has been filed with or recorded by a government agency or public office.
I would also be wary of your excuse of Hamas. Their military wing has been proscribed as a terrorist organisation by over 30 states across the world, including Egypt. if you are aligning yourself with Hamas, you will receive no support here. |
Firstly thank you fir the response that was a little more respectful and yes not too over emotional (although it's OK if you get emotional, we're all himan!:) )
Yeah I'm not sure why you're bringing up another region when im discussing Palestine. I'm not trying to be rude It just seems a bit of an appeal to futility like "bad things happen and therefore we cannot and must not do anything about this particular grievance"
Respectfully (and I do mean that) but this "why aren't there marches for xyz" isn't a valid or relevant argument in a discussion of the settler colonial project of Israel. Firstly, there are many protests and or resistance to these subjects. Secondly, each individual nation you list have vastly different material conditions. Comparing one to another isn't applicable. (However I'm not qualified to ho any further on the nations you list as I'm not read enough on them and I never have claimed too)
Thirdly, the significance of the genocide of gaza is the extent of the brutality of it and the ease of seekng t which what's happening in gaza. Thus combined with the glaring contradiction we are seekng when the USA and the UK claim to be democratic, free speech and human rights nations and the leaders and media all saying the opposite of what were seekng boils the blood of the hundreds of millions that are seeing the reality. Also a minimum of 25k have been killed on 11 weeks, hundreds of journalists and around 150 UN workers. Dozens of hospitals, refugee camps, schools , churches, mosques have been destroyed and settlers post tik tok videos laughing about it and mocking the victims. I mean it really is that open. Anyone can check what I'm claiming here. It's all easy to find.
Regarding the "public record" I'm referring to the numerous books, articles and papers documenting what has happened in the last 100 years (and before as you rightfully note the ottoman insolvent although of course this has nothing to do with israeli settlers). I actually don't know where me sharing journalist images and videos if kids burnt to pieces lands as definition however again I'm not sure how this relevany just seems nitpicking.
Yes I'm aware the ottoman empire occupied Palestine- with regard to your discussing Palestinian Jews and asking why I'm not angry about that - Jewish people lived in Palestine yes for thousands of years in fact. Now this is crucial- A zionist and Judaism are not the same. Zionism is a European settler ideology that is 120 years old. Judaism is around 4k years old (you can correct me if im wrongt)
Regarding hamas, Ii wanna be clear here - if the claim is that Palestinians escaped their concentration camp in gaza to go and "cook babies", behead babies and gang r#pe women than there needs to be evidence of that. This is really basic and the idea that me or anyone saying that is controversial is insane. Firstly, it is an accusation that is based and gained traction in the minds of western liberals because of the racist colonial "filthy natives" that need to be "civilised" narrative that the british ruling class have handed down to us. Secondly , Gaza is under constant surveillance, settlers made 60,000 videos that day. There has not been any evidence of these claims in any footage emerging that demonstrate thesr claims I have seen. The ra#e claims are interesting also -all made by settlers often days after the 7th whom claim to have seen it but have no actual evidence and also no settler claims to actually be the person that was r#ped. Bearing in mind, and I say this unambiguously, Israel have lied every day about Palestine since its inception I am inclined to think this is more lies however I am more than willing to change my mind if credible evidence emerges. Also, I wanna be clear on the IOF HAVE admitted they fired in their own people along with israel settlers who have said that they were shot at by IOF. That is open to everyone to confirm. See don't take my word for it. I make mistakes-look into yourself!
I don't care if the UK designates it as terrorist athats irrelevant as I personally would say that the UK government and the ruling capitalist class that run it are terrorists and are easiky the most violent people that have walked the earth and I think the majority of the world would agree with me. Some of the greatest most courageous people have been defined terrorist by our ruling class.
I haven't read the book you refer to but I don't see how an author aiming to defend the people whom comittec the nakba and have painted humans as animals and tortured and murdered them fir 76 years can have any respect...
However, it wouldn't be intellectually honest if I didn't read it so maybe I will.
Thanks forbthe reply my friend. [Post edited 2 Jan 2:33]
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| Sir Tim…. on 03:29 - Jan 2 with 1209 views | E17hoop |
And here's the issue. It's not tit for tat. There is nuance and to believe that unequivocally one side is 'right' is, in itself, a mistake.
If you were more widely read you would see that the issues in the Middle East are complex and complicated; to suggest it is 'imperialism' and 'western influence' is shallow. These are issues which have developed, grown and poisoned cultures for centuries. The current conflict is the latest episode of an ongoing story.
You can't understand why, when other countries commit acts which are as bad, they are not vilified in the same way that Israel is. Here's another example which I would ask you to consider. The war in Yemen is estimated by the United Nations to have cost 375k+ lives from 2014. This is several times more than the casualties in the entire history of the Arab–Israeli conflict. One of the main protagonists in that war, Saudi Arabia, is the world’s largest purchaser of British arms – but you will never see hundreds of thousands of people marching through British towns and cities in protest.
Why?
In 2022 When Russia invaded Ukraine there was no record significant spike in hate crimes against Russian people or property in Britain in 2022, just as there wasn't one when Russia invaded Crimea in 2014. In May 2021 there was a trebling of hate crime against Jews in London after conflict between Israel and Gaza. When time Israel and Hamas fought a war in the summer of 2014, anti-Jewish hate crimes doubled nationally. Since October 7, there has been a fivefold increase in hate crimes against Jews in some parts of the UK.
You also seem to be casting doubt over what happened on October 7th. To use your definition of public record - video from others which is shared on Social Media - there is no doubt that torture and sexual assault took place. But this isn't, as I said before, about tit for tat. There have been atrocities before then, since then, and there will be in the future.
Similarly, you seem to be using the word genocide in your posts. It is a loaded term; since it has an inherent moral judgement which privileges the morality of a victim over a perpetrator. It also requires a number of criteria to be met over a period of time. The activity of the Ottoman empire towards the Kurds who I mentioned earlier could be perceived as genocide. Starting an offensive against a nation state, and when found to be losing that fight, isn't a genocide.
However, all this will be lost on you. You said:
"I don't care if the UK designates it as terrorist athats irrelevant as I personally would say that the UK government and the ruling capitalist class that run it are terrorists and are easiky the most violent people that have walked the earth and I think the majority of the world would agree with me. Some of the greatest most courageous people have been defined terrorist by our ruling class."
If you believe Hamas are justified in their actions, you won't be swayed. They are not supported by the Palestinian people; prior to October 7, the majority of Palestinians supported a two state solution and over half did not trust Hamas. The Hamas president's term ended in 2009 but he has refused to hold elections where the public might be able to vote.
I don't think I'll likely respond again - as I said I'd be surprised if you're swayed by anything I've written. If however it makes you at least pause before hammering back the same tropes which are polluting the discourse, then it might help a little. | |
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| Sir Tim…. on 10:16 - Jan 2 with 1048 views | stowmarketrange |
We got asked to leave the Stowmarket spoons on Friday night for mixing drinks.We got the train back after the game and headed to one of the few pubs still open at 10.45 on a Friday night.
Our first mistake was thinking that it would be ok to have my grandchildren sitting outside in the garden with me.I ordered 3 pints of Guinness,which they were in the process of pouring when they spotted the kids in our party.
“We can’t serve any of your group until the children have gone” said the stroppy manageress.So the kids are sent to sit on the wall on the opposite side of the street.”No,we still can’t serve you until the kids are gone.”
This was in a pub with 8 people in it.
So my daughter comes out and picks them all up in the car and we can finally have our beers.Nothing happens for a couple of hours and we’re enjoying a few jars and talking about the game,until about 12.45 my brother goes up for the last beers.He also orders a couple of shots of port and tells the barman that Guinness is sometimes better with a port poured in it.The youngster behind the bar tells him that they can’t put the port into the drink themselves,but still sells the drinks that he ordered.
He returns to our table with the beers and 2 port glasses and proceeds to pour his into his Guinness.I leave mine alone as I don’t want to ruin a good pint.
Within a minute miss stroppy comes back with another manager and the 18 year old bouncer and tells us that they’re taking our drinks away from us as we’ve been mixing them.She proceeds to take my son’s vodka and coke,but my brother and me refuse to hand over our glasses until we’d drunk them.
That is the fastest pint of Guinness I’ve ever drunk and the port went down well too.All this in a pub with 6 people still left in it,which included the 3 of us.All the time being surrounded by the spoons mafia.
She then accuses my brother of being rude because he won’t give up his glass until he’d finished his drink,and he told her that he’d finish it quicker than she could take it.
I think it was all an excuse to get us out as they wanted to close up,and I doubt that they would’ve tried the same tactics in a busier pub earlier in the evening.No harm was done,apart from losing my son’s drink but it all felt a bit ott to us.
It won’t put me off going to a Wetherspoons,but I will certainly think twice about using my local one in future. |  | | |
| Sir Tim…. on 10:21 - Jan 2 with 1031 views | LongsufferingR |
This is without doubt the weirdest thread I've ever read. |  | | |
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