| OTH Ltd... on 19:53 - Jan 5 with 2175 views | MoscowJack |
| OTH Ltd... on 19:32 - Jan 5 by MattG |
Put it this way, there's not many contractors out there who would turn down the chance to work on a "cost plus" basis. Compare the ability to recover all of your costs plus a healthy (even at 5%) chunk of profit with the risk of giving a fixed price for a job and then carrying all the risks of delays, cost increases, additional resources, etc. No brainer. |
I suppose it depends on who dictates the costs, but I thought that builders/constructors make FAR bigger margins than 5% normally anyway.
I was under the impression that they are closer to 30% or more. |  |
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| OTH Ltd... on 19:58 - Jan 5 with 2153 views | clloy2 |
| OTH Ltd... on 19:18 - Jan 5 by MoscowJack |
I have asked MM this before as I've read all the accusations. He told me that when the tender went out his price was cost plus either 5% or 10% (I can't remember which) and also the option to start-stop the projects based on cash flow.
As other bidders were probably coming from further afield, they wouldn't have been able to offer either the same prices or flexible terms (in regards to the stop-start thingy!).
Personally, even if all bids had been equal, I'd much rather a local business and local contractors be employed, rather than seeing teams of builders coming down from Manchester and Swansea to build our facilities.
I have NO idea whether it's all true or not....but that's what I was told. I'm not sure if the Trust have asked the club how all of the tenders were conducted but I presume they have as there were rumours around a while ago.
Do I believe what I was told? Yes. Is it possible that he made more than that? Also yes. |
Given that our finances/cash flow was so poor pre sale which allegedly was the reason we needed to sell Shelvey and also why the sell outs needed to sell so quickly to the first bidder or second as it turned out. Wouldn't it have made more sense to stop work on the infrastructure contracts, particularly as there was an option to start stop based on cash flow, and secondly given them more time to find a more suitable buyer, one that would have the clubs best interests at heart, as opposed to venture capitalists/hedge fund owners, which as we have seen have been a complete disaster, and show no real desire to keep us in the premier league or focus on matters on field related. | | | |
| OTH Ltd... on 20:04 - Jan 5 with 2126 views | Darran |
| OTH Ltd... on 19:58 - Jan 5 by clloy2 |
Given that our finances/cash flow was so poor pre sale which allegedly was the reason we needed to sell Shelvey and also why the sell outs needed to sell so quickly to the first bidder or second as it turned out. Wouldn't it have made more sense to stop work on the infrastructure contracts, particularly as there was an option to start stop based on cash flow, and secondly given them more time to find a more suitable buyer, one that would have the clubs best interests at heart, as opposed to venture capitalists/hedge fund owners, which as we have seen have been a complete disaster, and show no real desire to keep us in the premier league or focus on matters on field related. |
Brilliant. |  |
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| OTH Ltd... on 20:09 - Jan 5 with 2111 views | MoscowJack |
| OTH Ltd... on 19:58 - Jan 5 by clloy2 |
Given that our finances/cash flow was so poor pre sale which allegedly was the reason we needed to sell Shelvey and also why the sell outs needed to sell so quickly to the first bidder or second as it turned out. Wouldn't it have made more sense to stop work on the infrastructure contracts, particularly as there was an option to start stop based on cash flow, and secondly given them more time to find a more suitable buyer, one that would have the clubs best interests at heart, as opposed to venture capitalists/hedge fund owners, which as we have seen have been a complete disaster, and show no real desire to keep us in the premier league or focus on matters on field related. |
I think the worries first came when we were close to relegation under Laudrup. A few of the Directors panicked and needed to realise the money they were sitting on.
I'm sure that they would have been more patient if we were top half of the table and playing good football but the bubble had burst and they knew it. It was a case of selling to the first buyers (Moores & Noell) or risk losing nearly all of it, until the Trust did their due dilligence and chased them away.
Building the facilities did make us more attractive to buyers, that's true, but that's also something I think we desperately needed as a club. It also makes us more attractive to players if/when we go down, so it's definitely a good thing in my opinion. | |
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| OTH Ltd... on 20:09 - Jan 5 with 2110 views | Nookiejack |
| OTH Ltd... on 19:11 - Jan 5 by MoscowJack |
I've only seen the bits that have been posted online, mainly on here.
My guess (and that's all it is) is that all of the selling shareholders were listed in that agreement, but only two (possibly three) knew that it existed at the time. |
Nick,
If it was the case that all selling shareholders were listed in that agreement - how would you feel if another party (i.e. HJ/LD) - said they were going to sell your shares (MM's and BK's) to a buyer without your knowledge?
Do you own any shares at the moment - if you do I will knock up a Heads of Terms and offer them to Levein/Kaplan without your knowledge. How you will be ok with that?
Also if HJ/LD were deciding to sell everyone's shares without anyone's knowledge (re: the Heads of Terms) - why didn't they also include the Trust's shares in the Heads of Terms as well? | | | |
| OTH Ltd... on 20:24 - Jan 5 with 2069 views | MoscowJack |
| OTH Ltd... on 20:09 - Jan 5 by Nookiejack |
Nick,
If it was the case that all selling shareholders were listed in that agreement - how would you feel if another party (i.e. HJ/LD) - said they were going to sell your shares (MM's and BK's) to a buyer without your knowledge?
Do you own any shares at the moment - if you do I will knock up a Heads of Terms and offer them to Levein/Kaplan without your knowledge. How you will be ok with that?
Also if HJ/LD were deciding to sell everyone's shares without anyone's knowledge (re: the Heads of Terms) - why didn't they also include the Trust's shares in the Heads of Terms as well? |
Nookie, there was a time that I thought MM would challenge the deal. I honestly did. As time past I think HJ, Yanks etc worked on him and he seemed to cool down a bit.
What we have to remember is that these guys became good friends (some friend Jenkins is, eh?) and so did their families. If MM had stood up to them and refused to sell (along with BK), he would have stopped their familes from having the biggest life-changing sums of money that they could have imagined.
I rarely talked to MM about players or managers etc as it made me awkward but I really pressed him on this as I was desperate for the deal not to happen. That's one of the reasons I set up a meeting between a few from the Trust Board and MM, as I hoped they might find a middle ground and fight the deal together. It was extremely unlikely, but it had to be worth trying.
I think MM believed the Yanks promises of taking the club further and they definitely have more money in the bank than the old board did, but I also am pretty sure that he would have held on for a bigger buyer with more money to INVEST into the club. The other Directors were skint (in comparison to him) and that risk was too much to take for them, so MM's decision was whether to scupper their lottery dreams of people he'd worked closely with for 15+ years or accept the deal being done in the knowledge that there was now even more pressure to make sure the Yanks put their money where their mouths were.
Another question is why didn't MM sell all his shares? He could have....easily! | |
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| OTH Ltd... on 20:27 - Jan 5 with 2050 views | Swanzay |
| OTH Ltd... on 19:18 - Jan 5 by MoscowJack |
I have asked MM this before as I've read all the accusations. He told me that when the tender went out his price was cost plus either 5% or 10% (I can't remember which) and also the option to start-stop the projects based on cash flow.
As other bidders were probably coming from further afield, they wouldn't have been able to offer either the same prices or flexible terms (in regards to the stop-start thingy!).
Personally, even if all bids had been equal, I'd much rather a local business and local contractors be employed, rather than seeing teams of builders coming down from Manchester and Swansea to build our facilities.
I have NO idea whether it's all true or not....but that's what I was told. I'm not sure if the Trust have asked the club how all of the tenders were conducted but I presume they have as there were rumours around a while ago.
Do I believe what I was told? Yes. Is it possible that he made more than that? Also yes. |
So MM would have full knowledge of the tender from both sides so to speak and could tweak his application accordingly.
Insider dealing and win/win for him. [Post edited 5 Jan 2018 20:30]
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| OTH Ltd... on 20:29 - Jan 5 with 2041 views | MoscowJack |
| OTH Ltd... on 20:09 - Jan 5 by Nookiejack |
Nick,
If it was the case that all selling shareholders were listed in that agreement - how would you feel if another party (i.e. HJ/LD) - said they were going to sell your shares (MM's and BK's) to a buyer without your knowledge?
Do you own any shares at the moment - if you do I will knock up a Heads of Terms and offer them to Levein/Kaplan without your knowledge. How you will be ok with that?
Also if HJ/LD were deciding to sell everyone's shares without anyone's knowledge (re: the Heads of Terms) - why didn't they also include the Trust's shares in the Heads of Terms as well? |
Sorry Nookie....missed your last point re the Trust's shares:
I think the Trust had made it clear that they didn't want to sell in the past and they (the Trust) were probably a lot less likely to "play ball" if/when they found out what had happened. I think they probably knew that they could change MM and BK's mind eventually. | |
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| OTH Ltd... on 20:35 - Jan 5 with 2001 views | Nookiejack |
| OTH Ltd... on 20:29 - Jan 5 by MoscowJack |
Sorry Nookie....missed your last point re the Trust's shares:
I think the Trust had made it clear that they didn't want to sell in the past and they (the Trust) were probably a lot less likely to "play ball" if/when they found out what had happened. I think they probably knew that they could change MM and BK's mind eventually. |
Ok thanks Nick - makes sense | | | |
| OTH Ltd... on 20:40 - Jan 5 with 1988 views | Uxbridge |
| OTH Ltd... on 20:24 - Jan 5 by MoscowJack |
Nookie, there was a time that I thought MM would challenge the deal. I honestly did. As time past I think HJ, Yanks etc worked on him and he seemed to cool down a bit.
What we have to remember is that these guys became good friends (some friend Jenkins is, eh?) and so did their families. If MM had stood up to them and refused to sell (along with BK), he would have stopped their familes from having the biggest life-changing sums of money that they could have imagined.
I rarely talked to MM about players or managers etc as it made me awkward but I really pressed him on this as I was desperate for the deal not to happen. That's one of the reasons I set up a meeting between a few from the Trust Board and MM, as I hoped they might find a middle ground and fight the deal together. It was extremely unlikely, but it had to be worth trying.
I think MM believed the Yanks promises of taking the club further and they definitely have more money in the bank than the old board did, but I also am pretty sure that he would have held on for a bigger buyer with more money to INVEST into the club. The other Directors were skint (in comparison to him) and that risk was too much to take for them, so MM's decision was whether to scupper their lottery dreams of people he'd worked closely with for 15+ years or accept the deal being done in the knowledge that there was now even more pressure to make sure the Yanks put their money where their mouths were.
Another question is why didn't MM sell all his shares? He could have....easily! |
He did sell his voting rights of course.
We can only speculate why a prominent local businessmen retained a stake that allowed him the perks of being a director in a premier league football club  |  |
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| OTH Ltd... on 20:41 - Jan 5 with 1983 views | IAN05 |
| OTH Ltd... on 20:24 - Jan 5 by MoscowJack |
Nookie, there was a time that I thought MM would challenge the deal. I honestly did. As time past I think HJ, Yanks etc worked on him and he seemed to cool down a bit.
What we have to remember is that these guys became good friends (some friend Jenkins is, eh?) and so did their families. If MM had stood up to them and refused to sell (along with BK), he would have stopped their familes from having the biggest life-changing sums of money that they could have imagined.
I rarely talked to MM about players or managers etc as it made me awkward but I really pressed him on this as I was desperate for the deal not to happen. That's one of the reasons I set up a meeting between a few from the Trust Board and MM, as I hoped they might find a middle ground and fight the deal together. It was extremely unlikely, but it had to be worth trying.
I think MM believed the Yanks promises of taking the club further and they definitely have more money in the bank than the old board did, but I also am pretty sure that he would have held on for a bigger buyer with more money to INVEST into the club. The other Directors were skint (in comparison to him) and that risk was too much to take for them, so MM's decision was whether to scupper their lottery dreams of people he'd worked closely with for 15+ years or accept the deal being done in the knowledge that there was now even more pressure to make sure the Yanks put their money where their mouths were.
Another question is why didn't MM sell all his shares? He could have....easily! |
I can't understand why MM wanted to make the financial dreams of others come true but give no toss for the football club that he has supported all his life ? Not to mention no care for the shareholding that the Supporters of the club (which he claims to be) that average fans worked so hard to acquire.
The only reason I can think of as to why MM wouldn't sell the other 5% is that there would be something in it for him. There can be no other reason as he wilfully signed over any voting rights.
One thing for sure, all these shareholders blame each other for for this sale happening. That tells me that they all know it was wrong. | | | |
| OTH Ltd... on 20:42 - Jan 5 with 1983 views | londonlisa2001 |
| OTH Ltd... on 20:24 - Jan 5 by MoscowJack |
Nookie, there was a time that I thought MM would challenge the deal. I honestly did. As time past I think HJ, Yanks etc worked on him and he seemed to cool down a bit.
What we have to remember is that these guys became good friends (some friend Jenkins is, eh?) and so did their families. If MM had stood up to them and refused to sell (along with BK), he would have stopped their familes from having the biggest life-changing sums of money that they could have imagined.
I rarely talked to MM about players or managers etc as it made me awkward but I really pressed him on this as I was desperate for the deal not to happen. That's one of the reasons I set up a meeting between a few from the Trust Board and MM, as I hoped they might find a middle ground and fight the deal together. It was extremely unlikely, but it had to be worth trying.
I think MM believed the Yanks promises of taking the club further and they definitely have more money in the bank than the old board did, but I also am pretty sure that he would have held on for a bigger buyer with more money to INVEST into the club. The other Directors were skint (in comparison to him) and that risk was too much to take for them, so MM's decision was whether to scupper their lottery dreams of people he'd worked closely with for 15+ years or accept the deal being done in the knowledge that there was now even more pressure to make sure the Yanks put their money where their mouths were.
Another question is why didn't MM sell all his shares? He could have....easily! |
By selling all his voting rights he made the last bit utterly irrelevant.
He gambled that the shares would increase in value. | | | |
| OTH Ltd... on 20:43 - Jan 5 with 1977 views | Nookiejack |
| OTH Ltd... on 20:35 - Jan 5 by Nookiejack |
Ok thanks Nick - makes sense |
Just seems such a major thing to do - to sign a Heads of terms Agreement - to sell someone else's shares - without their knowledge. On the basis you think you can persuade them at a later stage? | | | |
| OTH Ltd... on 20:44 - Jan 5 with 1972 views | exiledclaseboy |
| OTH Ltd... on 20:43 - Jan 5 by Nookiejack |
Just seems such a major thing to do - to sign a Heads of terms Agreement - to sell someone else's shares - without their knowledge. On the basis you think you can persuade them at a later stage? |
Sounds almost unbelievable some might say. |  |
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| OTH Ltd... on 20:50 - Jan 5 with 1950 views | fbreath |
| OTH Ltd... on 19:53 - Jan 5 by MoscowJack |
I suppose it depends on who dictates the costs, but I thought that builders/constructors make FAR bigger margins than 5% normally anyway.
I was under the impression that they are closer to 30% or more. |
There’s good money to be made on extensions |  |
| We are the first Welsh club to reach the Premier League Simples |
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| OTH Ltd... on 20:51 - Jan 5 with 1945 views | Nookiejack |
| OTH Ltd... on 20:42 - Jan 5 by londonlisa2001 |
By selling all his voting rights he made the last bit utterly irrelevant.
He gambled that the shares would increase in value. |
Unless the Yanks required Hj/MM/LD/BK to keep residual stakes in the club - to keep some skin in the game - to ensure smooth handover over a few season and to keep them focussed in staying in PL.
It could also be indicative that HJ/MM/BK/LD were prime movers of the deal - in that they marketed the deal to the Yanks - hence the Yanks wanted them to keep some skin in the game. | | | |
| OTH Ltd... on 20:53 - Jan 5 with 1935 views | Nookiejack |
| OTH Ltd... on 20:44 - Jan 5 by exiledclaseboy |
Sounds almost unbelievable some might say. |
It might be true (stranger thing have happened) but what would a judge say in court - on the balance of probbailities? | | | |
| OTH Ltd... on 21:00 - Jan 5 with 1913 views | MoscowJack |
| OTH Ltd... on 20:43 - Jan 5 by Nookiejack |
Just seems such a major thing to do - to sign a Heads of terms Agreement - to sell someone else's shares - without their knowledge. On the basis you think you can persuade them at a later stage? |
Nookie, we only have to look at Jenkins recent comments in the recent court case and his press release re. the Trust to realise that there's not a lot that he won't do to get his way.
I'm very, very, very sure that this was the case, but it's almost impossible to prove now, of course. | |
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| OTH Ltd... on 21:00 - Jan 5 with 1912 views | bonymine |
| OTH Ltd... on 18:41 - Jan 5 by harryhpalmer |
he has quite a bit of alimony to dish out and his current squeeze has recently retired, so needs to keep her happy! |
She won’t last long though no doubt he’ll have somebody else invited over as a ‘guest’ at his Spanish property some time soon and repeat again and again .......I can speak from personal experience (not been there myself mind ðŸ‘😂) ... |  |
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| OTH Ltd... on 21:08 - Jan 5 with 1879 views | QJumpingJack |
Where does Keith Harris fit into all of this?
Who was he representing when the deal was taking place? | | | |
| OTH Ltd... on 21:10 - Jan 5 with 1873 views | exiledclaseboy |
| OTH Ltd... on 21:08 - Jan 5 by QJumpingJack |
Where does Keith Harris fit into all of this?
Who was he representing when the deal was taking place? |
Orville or Cuddles? Intriguing. | |
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| OTH Ltd... on 21:11 - Jan 5 with 1868 views | Neath_Jack |
| OTH Ltd... on 21:08 - Jan 5 by QJumpingJack |
Where does Keith Harris fit into all of this?
Who was he representing when the deal was taking place? |
Orville mostly, he was right up his arse. |  |
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| OTH Ltd... on 21:11 - Jan 5 with 1862 views | Nookiejack |
| OTH Ltd... on 21:00 - Jan 5 by MoscowJack |
Nookie, we only have to look at Jenkins recent comments in the recent court case and his press release re. the Trust to realise that there's not a lot that he won't do to get his way.
I'm very, very, very sure that this was the case, but it's almost impossible to prove now, of course. |
Nick,
If that was the case HJ was signing an agreement to sell circa £19m of MM's £24m worth of shares - leaving MM with 5% residual stake.
£19m worth of shares - without MM's knowledge? | | | |
| OTH Ltd... on 21:12 - Jan 5 with 1850 views | swancity |
| OTH Ltd... on 20:09 - Jan 5 by MoscowJack |
I think the worries first came when we were close to relegation under Laudrup. A few of the Directors panicked and needed to realise the money they were sitting on.
I'm sure that they would have been more patient if we were top half of the table and playing good football but the bubble had burst and they knew it. It was a case of selling to the first buyers (Moores & Noell) or risk losing nearly all of it, until the Trust did their due dilligence and chased them away.
Building the facilities did make us more attractive to buyers, that's true, but that's also something I think we desperately needed as a club. It also makes us more attractive to players if/when we go down, so it's definitely a good thing in my opinion. |
" A few of the directors panicked and needed to realise the money they were sitting on "
Sadly how true is that. Say no more. That sums it all up in a nutshell. They did indeed. Hence the devious, selfish actions that followed. You've shot yourself in the foot. | |
| Only an idiot would eat a turkey curry on Christmas day |
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| OTH Ltd... on 21:13 - Jan 5 with 1841 views | bonymine |
| OTH Ltd... on 21:11 - Jan 5 by Nookiejack |
Nick,
If that was the case HJ was signing an agreement to sell circa £19m of MM's £24m worth of shares - leaving MM with 5% residual stake.
£19m worth of shares - without MM's knowledge? |
Jackanory ...... | |
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