| J D Sports Rochdale Expose 12:38 - Dec 14 with 11486 views | mingthemerciless |
Channel 4 News are running an expose of the working conditions at the Rochdale warehouse at 7.00 tonight. From the trailer I heard it sounds a really great place to work. Charles Dickens would be right at home.
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| J D Sports Rochdale Expose on 20:28 - Dec 15 with 1976 views | D_Alien |
| J D Sports Rochdale Expose on 20:20 - Dec 15 by rochdaleriddler |
Yes, of course but these jobs probably went to non English. My point was that keeping wages down by moving jobs around doesn't really help anyone but big capital. I forgot chateau lafitte rothschild is quite expensive  |
In a market economy, wages will find their natural level*
So your point is about as valid as a cask ale handpump producing Chateau d'Yquem
* that's why we're all immeasurably better off - even those earning below average wages - than our forebears. Disagree with that, if you can... |  |
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| J D Sports Rochdale Expose on 22:06 - Dec 15 with 1899 views | 49thseason |
For me, the real problem in Rochdale is that there has been no serious attempt to replace the defunct cotton industry and its associated engineering industry. The town has been running on the spot for 50 years, knowing perfectly well that a replacement jobs engine was needed but having neither the will nor expertise to do anything about it. Several "redevelopment" companies have been and gone without producing the step-change that is required.
Unfortunately, when you meet our councilors, it quickly becomes obvious that most are neither business savvy nor intellectual giants and it's easy to imagine that they really don't have a very wide perspective on how the world is leaving the town behind.
There is no point in having a new town centre if there is not enough money in the Borough to support it. |  | | |
| J D Sports Rochdale Expose on 22:25 - Dec 15 with 1888 views | mingthemerciless |
| J D Sports Rochdale Expose on 22:06 - Dec 15 by 49thseason |
For me, the real problem in Rochdale is that there has been no serious attempt to replace the defunct cotton industry and its associated engineering industry. The town has been running on the spot for 50 years, knowing perfectly well that a replacement jobs engine was needed but having neither the will nor expertise to do anything about it. Several "redevelopment" companies have been and gone without producing the step-change that is required.
Unfortunately, when you meet our councilors, it quickly becomes obvious that most are neither business savvy nor intellectual giants and it's easy to imagine that they really don't have a very wide perspective on how the world is leaving the town behind.
There is no point in having a new town centre if there is not enough money in the Borough to support it. |
Of course you're right. To be honest it's pretty obvious were the town has gone wrong. It's where do we go from here that is the million pound question. | | | |
| J D Sports Rochdale Expose on 22:42 - Dec 15 with 1870 views | 1mark1 |
| J D Sports Rochdale Expose on 22:06 - Dec 15 by 49thseason |
For me, the real problem in Rochdale is that there has been no serious attempt to replace the defunct cotton industry and its associated engineering industry. The town has been running on the spot for 50 years, knowing perfectly well that a replacement jobs engine was needed but having neither the will nor expertise to do anything about it. Several "redevelopment" companies have been and gone without producing the step-change that is required.
Unfortunately, when you meet our councilors, it quickly becomes obvious that most are neither business savvy nor intellectual giants and it's easy to imagine that they really don't have a very wide perspective on how the world is leaving the town behind.
There is no point in having a new town centre if there is not enough money in the Borough to support it. |
Much of the reason though for the decline in Textile and Engeneering was down to the failure of business owners to invest in new machinery, R and D , etc, when the rest of the world were investing in such things. It's a problem that is rife throughout British industry. The average British worker has more often than not lower standard of machinery to work with, than their European or Japanese counterparts. Look at areas where British manufacturing has done well, the Car manufacturing plants, that have the very latest technology and machinery, some of it run by Japanese companies. I would love to know of one single instance of Rochdale MBC or any of its predecessors being to blame for any of the previous companies of the Rochdale area going bust or closing.
My first employer was SEI , at Times Mill in Heywood, part of the massive GEC. We couldn't compete with German or Japanese competitors in Quartz Crystal Units, or Ferrite Cores, due to the fact we struggled to produce the parts to the correct specifications, due to old machinery, including Pressing machines and Kilns. I remember measuring a batch of ferrite cores which we had bought from a Japanese firm to label ourselves to fulfill an order, we wouldn't otherwise be able to do. That was a regular thing that happened in the 80s. I checked about 50 of these cores with a micrometer and every sopingle one was spot on dimension wise. The same core types we would have to press , double the amount to get out an order. So it was cheaper sometimes, to buy from Japan, and then print ourselves and then supply our customers, then to produce ourselves. This was nothing to do with the workforce, but purely down to crap machinery.
Its easy to blame elected officials, however its business itself that is to blame for their failures. It would help if big business paid their full and proper taxes, that could be invested into education and training, and infrastructure etc. |  |
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| J D Sports Rochdale Expose on 23:49 - Dec 15 with 1832 views | 49thseason |
There is certainly some truth in your assessment, historically British industry was designed to keep the owners in the state they had become accustomed to, as long as the money coming in was OK they managed to keep going, re-investment was not on their agenda. The big post-war advantage of Germany and Japan was their ability to start from scratch. In the UK companies just went back to doing what they had always done and becoming increasingly uncompetitive.
Rochdale needs investment in skills, incubator units, maybe a STEM centre offering to do University-standard courses in half the time or less. (See the US coding boot camps that turn out coders in a matter of weeks at relatively low cost). A RMBC unit that tours the world selling the work of some of those remaining companies that are capable of being world class would not be a bad call either - it would certainly open some doors and if properly manned could attract investment. | | | |
| J D Sports Rochdale Expose on 00:12 - Dec 16 with 1810 views | D_Alien |
| J D Sports Rochdale Expose on 22:25 - Dec 15 by mingthemerciless |
Of course you're right. To be honest it's pretty obvious were the town has gone wrong. It's where do we go from here that is the million pound question. |
Correct, and there's some good posts here.
The common factor seems to be that the council should be doing something, but in fact - as pointed out - councillors aren't entrepreneurs.
What made Rochdale the town it became was the natural physical environment (for producing cotton) and the ability of entrepreneurs to make the most of it. Yes, working conditions were grim, and unionisation helped make things better, but that was when we weren't competing on a global stage.
The million pound question therefore is - what do the people of Rochdale have to offer a potential employer to create the conditions where their ideas and skills can be put to productive use? What the old working class had to offer was sheer physical effort, but that's nowhere near good enough in this day and age. Most of the physical effort of manufacturing has been replaced by machinery, and a great deal of the intellectual effort will be replaced by computerised algorithms. We're not alone in that - it's a disrupted process which affects everyone, and different solutions are required which at the very minimum shouldn't be harking back to former ways of doing things.
The first industrial revolution upon which Rochdale grew was massively disruptive, and seeking comfort in failed ideologies is an utter waste of time as the new types of disruption take place. | |
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| J D Sports Rochdale Expose on 01:15 - Dec 16 with 1772 views | downunder |
| J D Sports Rochdale Expose on 22:42 - Dec 15 by 1mark1 |
Much of the reason though for the decline in Textile and Engeneering was down to the failure of business owners to invest in new machinery, R and D , etc, when the rest of the world were investing in such things. It's a problem that is rife throughout British industry. The average British worker has more often than not lower standard of machinery to work with, than their European or Japanese counterparts. Look at areas where British manufacturing has done well, the Car manufacturing plants, that have the very latest technology and machinery, some of it run by Japanese companies. I would love to know of one single instance of Rochdale MBC or any of its predecessors being to blame for any of the previous companies of the Rochdale area going bust or closing.
My first employer was SEI , at Times Mill in Heywood, part of the massive GEC. We couldn't compete with German or Japanese competitors in Quartz Crystal Units, or Ferrite Cores, due to the fact we struggled to produce the parts to the correct specifications, due to old machinery, including Pressing machines and Kilns. I remember measuring a batch of ferrite cores which we had bought from a Japanese firm to label ourselves to fulfill an order, we wouldn't otherwise be able to do. That was a regular thing that happened in the 80s. I checked about 50 of these cores with a micrometer and every sopingle one was spot on dimension wise. The same core types we would have to press , double the amount to get out an order. So it was cheaper sometimes, to buy from Japan, and then print ourselves and then supply our customers, then to produce ourselves. This was nothing to do with the workforce, but purely down to crap machinery.
Its easy to blame elected officials, however its business itself that is to blame for their failures. It would help if big business paid their full and proper taxes, that could be invested into education and training, and infrastructure etc. |
I am no intellect match to many on here, but I will throw a few things into the mix.My work took me to every cotton mill in the area. I know of some mills where the latest up to date machines were purchased. They lasted a few years before they were dismantled, and shipped overseas to be operated by low wage workers (as were all the old machines). Impossible to compete, just because they are low paid does not mean they are not skilful, intelligent, hard working etc.
So many bosses looked after number 1, sold up and retired. Most people look after No1 at the end of the day. They were between a rock and a hard place, high taxation and wages being the hard place. Why do we have high taxes? One reason is because the UK has high benefit pay out. Do the competing countries have similar benefit pay outs? I do not think so.
We care...but we are killing ourselves.
Just a thought. Perhaps that Japanese company employed Filipinos, and pushed out 160 cores to get 80 correct, before selling to the UK? |  | | |
| J D Sports Rochdale Expose on 08:03 - Dec 16 with 1705 views | rochedale |
| J D Sports Rochdale Expose on 01:15 - Dec 16 by downunder |
I am no intellect match to many on here, but I will throw a few things into the mix.My work took me to every cotton mill in the area. I know of some mills where the latest up to date machines were purchased. They lasted a few years before they were dismantled, and shipped overseas to be operated by low wage workers (as were all the old machines). Impossible to compete, just because they are low paid does not mean they are not skilful, intelligent, hard working etc.
So many bosses looked after number 1, sold up and retired. Most people look after No1 at the end of the day. They were between a rock and a hard place, high taxation and wages being the hard place. Why do we have high taxes? One reason is because the UK has high benefit pay out. Do the competing countries have similar benefit pay outs? I do not think so.
We care...but we are killing ourselves.
Just a thought. Perhaps that Japanese company employed Filipinos, and pushed out 160 cores to get 80 correct, before selling to the UK? |
If ever there was footage to show your kids to encourage them to try hard at school, this is it. Truly awful, jobsworth supervisors playing god, talking to staff like rubbish, but unlikely to get a similar 'supervisor' role anywhere else.
I hope some serious action is taken from this, you can't treat people like that, they were like cattle. Shocking. |  |
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| J D Sports Rochdale Expose on 08:27 - Dec 16 with 1686 views | rochdaleriddler |
| J D Sports Rochdale Expose on 20:28 - Dec 15 by D_Alien |
In a market economy, wages will find their natural level*
So your point is about as valid as a cask ale handpump producing Chateau d'Yquem
* that's why we're all immeasurably better off - even those earning below average wages - than our forebears. Disagree with that, if you can... |
Hmm, well this generation is about to be the first in the modern era to be worse off than the previous. I'm afraid that we are now witnessing the death of capitalism, as there will be no one left to buy the products, due to automation and reduced buying power. It could all be so different if people were valued, and the wealth not all held by a small global clique, globalisation will kill itself.probably not in our lifetime tbf, off for a morning bollinger now chin chin |  |
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| J D Sports Rochdale Expose on 08:52 - Dec 16 with 1660 views | mingthemerciless |
| J D Sports Rochdale Expose on 23:49 - Dec 15 by 49thseason |
There is certainly some truth in your assessment, historically British industry was designed to keep the owners in the state they had become accustomed to, as long as the money coming in was OK they managed to keep going, re-investment was not on their agenda. The big post-war advantage of Germany and Japan was their ability to start from scratch. In the UK companies just went back to doing what they had always done and becoming increasingly uncompetitive.
Rochdale needs investment in skills, incubator units, maybe a STEM centre offering to do University-standard courses in half the time or less. (See the US coding boot camps that turn out coders in a matter of weeks at relatively low cost). A RMBC unit that tours the world selling the work of some of those remaining companies that are capable of being world class would not be a bad call either - it would certainly open some doors and if properly manned could attract investment. |
After the War the British Engineering industry was working flat out. Most of the companies could sell everything they produced. A lot of these firms had long waiting lists for their machines. As a result the owners thought there wasn't a great incentive to re-invest and they didn't want to disrupt existing production lines.
By the time the penny dropped and Germany and Japan had re-equipped with much more modern machinery it was too late and we'd fallen behind never really to catch up again. | | | |
| J D Sports Rochdale Expose on 10:22 - Dec 16 with 1612 views | TipperaryDale |
| J D Sports Rochdale Expose on 01:15 - Dec 16 by downunder |
I am no intellect match to many on here, but I will throw a few things into the mix.My work took me to every cotton mill in the area. I know of some mills where the latest up to date machines were purchased. They lasted a few years before they were dismantled, and shipped overseas to be operated by low wage workers (as were all the old machines). Impossible to compete, just because they are low paid does not mean they are not skilful, intelligent, hard working etc.
So many bosses looked after number 1, sold up and retired. Most people look after No1 at the end of the day. They were between a rock and a hard place, high taxation and wages being the hard place. Why do we have high taxes? One reason is because the UK has high benefit pay out. Do the competing countries have similar benefit pay outs? I do not think so.
We care...but we are killing ourselves.
Just a thought. Perhaps that Japanese company employed Filipinos, and pushed out 160 cores to get 80 correct, before selling to the UK? |
An obvious rebuttal to that claptrap is the case of Sweden; a high tax, high welfare country with a thriving manufacturing and industrial sector. Whereas a low tax laissez faire USA has much the same problems as us but on a larger scale. Our taxes are at the lower end of Europe's countries, and our benefits are mid-range. |  | | |
| J D Sports Rochdale Expose on 10:49 - Dec 16 with 1594 views | D_Alien |
| J D Sports Rochdale Expose on 08:27 - Dec 16 by rochdaleriddler |
Hmm, well this generation is about to be the first in the modern era to be worse off than the previous. I'm afraid that we are now witnessing the death of capitalism, as there will be no one left to buy the products, due to automation and reduced buying power. It could all be so different if people were valued, and the wealth not all held by a small global clique, globalisation will kill itself.probably not in our lifetime tbf, off for a morning bollinger now chin chin |
Champagne socialism?
About as realistic as 'the end of capitalism' when you don't even understand what it means. The current generation coming through are more entrepreneurial than any previous generation in history, at least those among them who understand the world doesn't owe them a living. They're enabled to forge new types of businesses and explore multi-faceted careers precisely through the undeniable benefits brought by capitalist enterprise. Enjoy your next footballing holiday abroad, old chap, and remember how it was enabled.
[Post edited 16 Dec 2016 10:51]
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| J D Sports Rochdale Expose on 11:31 - Dec 16 with 1570 views | rochdaleriddler |
| J D Sports Rochdale Expose on 10:49 - Dec 16 by D_Alien |
Champagne socialism?
About as realistic as 'the end of capitalism' when you don't even understand what it means. The current generation coming through are more entrepreneurial than any previous generation in history, at least those among them who understand the world doesn't owe them a living. They're enabled to forge new types of businesses and explore multi-faceted careers precisely through the undeniable benefits brought by capitalist enterprise. Enjoy your next footballing holiday abroad, old chap, and remember how it was enabled.
[Post edited 16 Dec 2016 10:51]
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I don't doubt there are great entrepreneurs, but capitalism needs a market, and if robots are doing the work we will eventually have a few people making the goods, a few owning the mechanised means of production and only a few people with the earning power to purchase. We should all be able to work less, and spend money on leisure activity. Thus keeping the whole thing going, anyways we probably never going to agree on this. Not sure about any football holidays I've been on unless you're counting away games. Merry Christmas to you and yours | |
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| J D Sports Rochdale Expose on 11:52 - Dec 16 with 1551 views | mingthemerciless |
It's a bit like the old story of the American trade union official being shown around a brand new car factory in Japan. The Japanese guy says - " At the moment 25% of the production is done by robots but in ten years time we're hoping to have raised that figure to 95 %
The American guy says - " Gee that's great but who's going to buy the cars in ten years time ! " | | | |
| J D Sports Rochdale Expose on 12:21 - Dec 16 with 1528 views | D_Alien |
| J D Sports Rochdale Expose on 11:31 - Dec 16 by rochdaleriddler |
I don't doubt there are great entrepreneurs, but capitalism needs a market, and if robots are doing the work we will eventually have a few people making the goods, a few owning the mechanised means of production and only a few people with the earning power to purchase. We should all be able to work less, and spend money on leisure activity. Thus keeping the whole thing going, anyways we probably never going to agree on this. Not sure about any football holidays I've been on unless you're counting away games. Merry Christmas to you and yours |
So you were lying when you posted that you were off to France for the Euros during the summer?
No matter, it's a triviality. The emergence of new technologies will be disruptive in ways we can't yet imagine, but one thing is sure - human ingenuity will find ways to enable continued prosperity, and not just in the West, but in emerging nations too - which is why globalisation is causing a period of political chaos. Don't you think previously poor countries deserve a crack at prosperity? It's a price we in the West should be prepared to pay. It could well be the case that we have to educate the next generations to compete whilst also accepting more leisure time. One thing is for sure, pessimism never got anyone anywhere; it was optimism that set the Phoenicians sailing across the Med in the hope of finding friendly peoples to trade with, to set the ball rolling. [Post edited 16 Dec 2016 12:41]
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| J D Sports Rochdale Expose on 12:40 - Dec 16 with 1498 views | BigDaveMyCock |
| J D Sports Rochdale Expose on 20:28 - Dec 15 by D_Alien |
In a market economy, wages will find their natural level*
So your point is about as valid as a cask ale handpump producing Chateau d'Yquem
* that's why we're all immeasurably better off - even those earning below average wages - than our forebears. Disagree with that, if you can... |
The iron law of competition, and the compulsion to reduce costs of which labour is one, is also problematic and one that the 'dismal science' of economics fails to grasp (it is of course not a science). Capitalism relies on living labour to not just produce but consume the products capitalism produces. In sum, machines and robots don't buy stuff. Without mass consumption capitalism is nothing. The contradiction of constantly moving production to workers who cannot themselves afford to consume plays itself out in debt. Trillions and trillions of pounds, euros and dollars of the stuff, both state and private, in the Western world to keep us consuming.
What was the last major crisis? A crisis of living beyond our means. It was managed by goverments essentially printing money and nationalising. The response to the last major crisis was Keynesianism, in sum, government spending to spur consumption.
We are better off, we're just not paying for it - yet anyway. | |
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| J D Sports Rochdale Expose on 12:51 - Dec 16 with 1467 views | rochdaleriddler |
| J D Sports Rochdale Expose on 12:21 - Dec 16 by D_Alien |
So you were lying when you posted that you were off to France for the Euros during the summer?
No matter, it's a triviality. The emergence of new technologies will be disruptive in ways we can't yet imagine, but one thing is sure - human ingenuity will find ways to enable continued prosperity, and not just in the West, but in emerging nations too - which is why globalisation is causing a period of political chaos. Don't you think previously poor countries deserve a crack at prosperity? It's a price we in the West should be prepared to pay. It could well be the case that we have to educate the next generations to compete whilst also accepting more leisure time. One thing is for sure, pessimism never got anyone anywhere; it was optimism that set the Phoenicians sailing across the Med in the hope of finding friendly peoples to trade with, to set the ball rolling. [Post edited 16 Dec 2016 12:41]
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I was in France,Switzerland and Italy while the euros were on ! No lies | |
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| J D Sports Rochdale Expose on 12:55 - Dec 16 with 1461 views | D_Alien |
| J D Sports Rochdale Expose on 12:40 - Dec 16 by BigDaveMyCock |
The iron law of competition, and the compulsion to reduce costs of which labour is one, is also problematic and one that the 'dismal science' of economics fails to grasp (it is of course not a science). Capitalism relies on living labour to not just produce but consume the products capitalism produces. In sum, machines and robots don't buy stuff. Without mass consumption capitalism is nothing. The contradiction of constantly moving production to workers who cannot themselves afford to consume plays itself out in debt. Trillions and trillions of pounds, euros and dollars of the stuff, both state and private, in the Western world to keep us consuming.
What was the last major crisis? A crisis of living beyond our means. It was managed by goverments essentially printing money and nationalising. The response to the last major crisis was Keynesianism, in sum, government spending to spur consumption.
We are better off, we're just not paying for it - yet anyway. |
Fully agree about the so-called 'science' of economics - but isn't that just theory desperately trying to keep up with the reality of people's lives and never quite succeeding?
There will, in the future, be ways of moving prosperity forward without the capital/labour paradigm, which is why socialism is dead. The apparent chaos in markets and politics is simply a manifestation of this. When economists point out the current generation is the first 'since the 1840s' not to be better off than the previous one it is, of course, typical in that they're talking about the West - meanwhile, emerging nations are massively better off, which our economies are having to adjust to.
There are advocates of paying everyone a basic minimum amount of money, whether they're working or not - a kind of basic 'living wage' derived from the greater productivity enabled by disruptive technology which would allow continued consumption. That's just one possibility. I believe the biggest problem is going to be how we prevent people from becoming bored when they no longer have to go to work. | |
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| J D Sports Rochdale Expose on 13:08 - Dec 16 with 1444 views | D_Alien |
| J D Sports Rochdale Expose on 12:51 - Dec 16 by rochdaleriddler |
I was in France,Switzerland and Italy while the euros were on ! No lies |
So that's where you got your taste for champagne!
[Post edited 16 Dec 2016 13:17]
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