| Naively assembled squad, seen it all before 14:25 - Jul 15 with 9878 views | WestbourneR |
Looking down the squad list I got memories of Gary Waddock's 'new dawn' a few years back when we started the season with supposedly carefully sourced, low cost gems. Armel, Ukah, Ward and headless chicken Polish striker bloke.
For me our current signings are classic hope over experience.
Ramsey and Ferdinand think they're clever enough and astute enough to buy players on the cheap from home and abroad and build a strong Championship team. I am not so sure.
Don't get me wrong, I think Redknapp was a joke of a coach and a manager in the end - BUT, and i've always said it, I really believe he has an extremely good eye for a player.
Unlike almost any boss we've had for nearly 20 years - they players he bought are now worth considerably more than he paid for them. Even players like Karl Henry, who people derided, proved he was a more than useful signing for £1 million. Even O'Neill was a good signing for a season.
I very much doubt Ramsey and Ferds will have the same track record.
Austin, Phillips, Fer, Dunne, Simpson, Henry - even McCarthy is attracting strong interest.
Only Mutch and arguably Caulker haven't gone on to prove to be good signings and we got our money back on one and will get close to it on the other, should we want it.
Cue derision and abuse.... [Post edited 15 Jul 2015 15:44]
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| Naively assembled squad, seen it all before on 15:49 - Jul 15 with 2161 views | vegasranger |
One things for sure we need fullbacks and a bit of quality at centre half. Furlong looks raw and lost most of the time. Yun just isn't very good. We played two centre halts at full back against Monaco. Here we go again. Expecting any of our youth team to be a regular part of the first team seems a bit of a gamble. At youth level QPR are producing Div 1 players at best. Of the senior players Hill really should be a back up and Faurlin ( who is a real luxury player ) might struggle with his injury record. |  | | |
| Naively assembled squad, seen it all before on 15:54 - Jul 15 with 2151 views | NorthamptonR |
| Naively assembled squad, seen it all before on 15:45 - Jul 15 by Antti_Heinola |
Spot on. Although I'm actually pleased there's some doom and gloom around. Better than the unbearable optimism usually around in the summer. |
So we've had the optimism of previous years, pessimism so far this year.
Time for some realism i think...do we seriously expect a charge to promotion? Or even want a charge for promotion with the same players that took us down?
We need a few settled years in the championship. The prem will always be the eventual target but we need to start doing things the right way | | | |
| Naively assembled squad, seen it all before on 15:55 - Jul 15 with 2146 views | simmo |
| Naively assembled squad, seen it all before on 15:22 - Jul 15 by Antti_Heinola |
Looks increasingly like McCarthy will go to Palace though... |
Apparently Scott Dann' new deal is worth 65k p/w. If they are payign that for bang average players like Scott Dann, then gawd knows what they'd pay McCarthy to be number 2 and a future successor to Speroni. |  |
| ask Beavis I get nothing Butthead |
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| Naively assembled squad, seen it all before on 16:00 - Jul 15 with 2128 views | daveB |
hard to tell if we'll be any good or not, I've not seen 4 of the new signings play before so will wait and see what they are like.
We've still got players who are pretty good in the championship like Green, Mccarthy, Yun, Onuoha, Caulker, Hill, Hoilett, Henry, Faurlin and Mackie. Who knows if Phillips will stay but if he does not many better wingers in the division. I wouldn't expect us to get promoted but we should be competitive and still have plenty of time to bring more in. |  | | |
| Naively assembled squad, seen it all before on 16:01 - Jul 15 with 2121 views | Antti_Heinola |
| Naively assembled squad, seen it all before on 15:49 - Jul 15 by vegasranger |
One things for sure we need fullbacks and a bit of quality at centre half. Furlong looks raw and lost most of the time. Yun just isn't very good. We played two centre halts at full back against Monaco. Here we go again. Expecting any of our youth team to be a regular part of the first team seems a bit of a gamble. At youth level QPR are producing Div 1 players at best. Of the senior players Hill really should be a back up and Faurlin ( who is a real luxury player ) might struggle with his injury record. |
Have a read of Clive's words on Furlong for a more reasonable opinion. About 16 of the Prem's 20 RBs looked 'lost and raw most of the time' against Sanchez and Bolassie last season.
There are loads of Div 1 players in the championship. We're going to have to put up with that kind of thing for a bit I'm afraid. |  |
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| Naively assembled squad, seen it all before on 16:02 - Jul 15 with 2119 views | ichbinnaughty |
| Naively assembled squad, seen it all before on 15:54 - Jul 15 by NorthamptonR |
So we've had the optimism of previous years, pessimism so far this year.
Time for some realism i think...do we seriously expect a charge to promotion? Or even want a charge for promotion with the same players that took us down?
We need a few settled years in the championship. The prem will always be the eventual target but we need to start doing things the right way |
Question:
If we were to retain the squad from last season - what would our expectations be?
'a charge to promotion'? mid-table obscurity in the championship?
A starting 11 of, say, Green, Furlong, Onuoha, Caulker, Yun, Phillips, Henry, Fer, Hoilett, Austin, Zamora (or Polter now) = too good for the champ, not good enough for the prem? [Post edited 15 Jul 2015 16:04]
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| Naively assembled squad, seen it all before on 16:02 - Jul 15 with 2118 views | FloridaR |
I think Ramsey and Ferd are going to struggle as going down the route of trying to unearth gems for non-league players and lower leaguers will be their downfall. In this league you need experienced players to push for promotion and for all the faults of Ary he could attract players & keep them. I hope Ramsey can do the same with Austin, Phillips, Fer as those 3 could be the major difference to higher table position and a relegation struggle in the season ahead. Starting the season I hope that Ramsey has finally found a starting 11 - 14 players and be consistent and play them week in week out. |  |
| Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: Happy I'm the 'chosen one' |
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| Naively assembled squad, seen it all before on 16:06 - Jul 15 with 2097 views | Antti_Heinola |
| Naively assembled squad, seen it all before on 16:02 - Jul 15 by FloridaR |
I think Ramsey and Ferd are going to struggle as going down the route of trying to unearth gems for non-league players and lower leaguers will be their downfall. In this league you need experienced players to push for promotion and for all the faults of Ary he could attract players & keep them. I hope Ramsey can do the same with Austin, Phillips, Fer as those 3 could be the major difference to higher table position and a relegation struggle in the season ahead. Starting the season I hope that Ramsey has finally found a starting 11 - 14 players and be consistent and play them week in week out. |
'In this league you need experienced players to push for promotion'
We're not pushing for promotion. Get used to it. This is a bit of a truism anyway - of course you need experience - but you also need youth and vitality and pace.
Harry could 'attract' players because we were offering them absolutely sh!t loads of money compared to everyone else.
austin won't be here at the end of the window, and Phillips and Fer are likely to be gone too - and it's got nothing to do with who's in charge. Better get used to that too. | |
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| Naively assembled squad, seen it all before on 16:09 - Jul 15 with 2083 views | Northernr |
I made the same comparison after that first shambolic friendly, obviosuly with the caveat that however bad Les Ferdinand turns out to be he'll never be as bad as Paladini and however bad or otherwise this team of Ramsey's is it will never come close to that Gary Waddock team. Just stop and think for a moment...
QPR: P Jones 6, Bignot 5, Stewart 6, Rose 5, Milanese 5, Ainsworth 6, Rowlands 7 (Donnelly 78, 6), Lomas 7 (R Jones 65, 5), Ward 7, Cook 6, Czerkas 7 (Bircham 71, 6).
Subs: Cole, Kanyuka. (lost 2-0 at Burnley opening day)
QPR: Paul Jones 5, Rose 4, Rehman 4 (Baidoo 74, 8), Stewart 5, Milanese 6,Oliseh 8, Bircham 8, Ward 7, Cook 7, Nygaard 5, Blackstock 6 (Ray Jones 45, 6). (lost 2-0 to Birmingham in his last home game)
(fck I was generous with the marks in those days)
That's the team we started off with under Waddock. Only Cook and Rowlands would get anywhere near what we've got now. For people who weren't on that pre-season tour of Sorrento I cannot put into words just what a fiasco it was.
So we're nowhere near that level.
Also, I met Paladini and Waddock that summer for interviews and what have you and knew we were in trouble before it even kicked off. I've met Ferdinand and Ramsey this summer and liked absolutely everything they've said and what they're trying to do.
But I do hold the same sort of fears, particularly as we will potentially make the same mistake as last summer where we assumed Remy was staying and didn't plan for his inevitable departure. If Austin left now and we didn't add to the attack I'm not sure we'd score a goal ever again.
As I said before, I hope I'm worried because I'm so desperate for it to work. They're doing a lot of the right things.
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| Naively assembled squad, seen it all before on 16:11 - Jul 15 with 2067 views | NorthamptonR |
| Naively assembled squad, seen it all before on 16:02 - Jul 15 by ichbinnaughty |
Question:
If we were to retain the squad from last season - what would our expectations be?
'a charge to promotion'? mid-table obscurity in the championship?
A starting 11 of, say, Green, Furlong, Onuoha, Caulker, Yun, Phillips, Henry, Fer, Hoilett, Austin, Zamora (or Polter now) = too good for the champ, not good enough for the prem? [Post edited 15 Jul 2015 16:04]
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I think you're dead right - it probably is too good for the chamionship and not good enough for the prem. Which is my point, do we want to go for promotion with this team and struggle and have the same problems? or do we get behind what Ramsey and Ferdinand are trying to do and get players in that could improve whilst playing for us and eventually become good enough for the prem?
For example i dont think Furlong/Yun/Hoilett/Henry ever were or ever will be good enough for the prem. Luongo/Gladwin could quite possibly improve and become premiership players. (obviously i dont know that this will happen but its just an example) | | | |
| Naively assembled squad, seen it all before on 16:13 - Jul 15 with 2057 views | ichbinnaughty |
| Naively assembled squad, seen it all before on 16:06 - Jul 15 by Antti_Heinola |
'In this league you need experienced players to push for promotion'
We're not pushing for promotion. Get used to it. This is a bit of a truism anyway - of course you need experience - but you also need youth and vitality and pace.
Harry could 'attract' players because we were offering them absolutely sh!t loads of money compared to everyone else.
austin won't be here at the end of the window, and Phillips and Fer are likely to be gone too - and it's got nothing to do with who's in charge. Better get used to that too. |
I very much hope the club's mentality is one that, despite the changes, we were a Premier League club last season and are striving to return there as soon as possible.
We all know that the more time that passes since you were last in the Premier League, the more distant and difficult it becomes.
Just look at the likes of Bolton, Reading, Wigan, Fulham, Charlton, etc etc.
Regardless of how 'ready' we would be, football in today's industry is such that we would need the financial uplift at least of promotion (and the parachute payments).
I think the alternative is ruin.
(And I hate that that is what football in 2015 has become). | | | |
| Naively assembled squad, seen it all before on 16:25 - Jul 15 with 1999 views | adhoc_qpr |
Interesting some of the similarities between Waddock's teams to the squad composition now though:
Youth team players - Baidoo, Rehman, Donnely, Kanyuka vs Grego-Cox, Doughty, Furlong etc
Random cheap foreign players - Czerkas, Milanese vs Polter, Scorch
Random Aussie international - Ward vs Luongo (not really fair that one given Luongo's Swindon record!)
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| Naively assembled squad, seen it all before on 16:31 - Jul 15 with 1979 views | Gloucs_R |
We are not done yet. Once the money for Sterling and Austin is in the bank, we'll go shopping for one or two quality players.
Also, we will use the loan system once the Prem teams have sorted their 25 man squads out.
We have to be honest, we are now shopping at Aldi using cash and not at Harrords on a credit card.
Mid table or above is what I hope for. Good football, a young team, with the promise of a promotion charge on he next 2-3 years. |  |
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| Naively assembled squad, seen it all before on 16:39 - Jul 15 with 1961 views | hopphoops |
I don't think people are crowing about the squad itself, just happy with the approach after too many years of bringing in players who cannot possibly have any subsequent value. It's nice to think that Ferdinand and Ramsey will be able to improve players.
Until we have an idea of the shape of the first team + bench I'll wait and see. Apart from the ones who'll probably be sold, there's several players of massively uncertain value for different reasons - Faurlin, Caulker, Diakite, Hoilett, Furlong etc etc - who need testing with clear roles that match their strengths.
At the moment the new buys are squad depth. But we'll seriously need a proven striker if / when Charlie goes.
I'm updating to Wensleydale btw. |  |
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| Naively assembled squad, seen it all before on 16:41 - Jul 15 with 1956 views | daveB |
| Naively assembled squad, seen it all before on 16:25 - Jul 15 by adhoc_qpr |
Interesting some of the similarities between Waddock's teams to the squad composition now though:
Youth team players - Baidoo, Rehman, Donnely, Kanyuka vs Grego-Cox, Doughty, Furlong etc
Random cheap foreign players - Czerkas, Milanese vs Polter, Scorch
Random Aussie international - Ward vs Luongo (not really fair that one given Luongo's Swindon record!)
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The senior players are much better now though than under Waddock. He only really had Lee Cook as Bircham and Gallen were on the way out | | | |
| Naively assembled squad, seen it all before on 16:49 - Jul 15 with 1871 views | ichbinnaughty |
| Naively assembled squad, seen it all before on 16:39 - Jul 15 by hopphoops |
I don't think people are crowing about the squad itself, just happy with the approach after too many years of bringing in players who cannot possibly have any subsequent value. It's nice to think that Ferdinand and Ramsey will be able to improve players.
Until we have an idea of the shape of the first team + bench I'll wait and see. Apart from the ones who'll probably be sold, there's several players of massively uncertain value for different reasons - Faurlin, Caulker, Diakite, Hoilett, Furlong etc etc - who need testing with clear roles that match their strengths.
At the moment the new buys are squad depth. But we'll seriously need a proven striker if / when Charlie goes.
I'm updating to Wensleydale btw. |
A matured Diakite, tamed and coached by the new set up, and finally able to fulfil the potential shown three/four years ago would be a quality new signing.
The one thing I'm really hoping for is that we now have a decent COACHING capability at the club. Not saggychops' "throw-money-at-every-issue" approach.
Effective coaching could bring on the younger ones (Furlong, Manning, Petrasso, Blackwood, Luongo, Gladwin), enable younger senior and/or new players to fulfil expectations (Diakite, Caulker, Yun, Onuoha, Hoilett, JET), and allow the older heads to continue to develop (Mackie, Austin, Fer, Phillips, Henry, Faurlin, Hill) = all aligned to a bigger picture approach/club mentality. | | | |
| Naively assembled squad, seen it all before on 16:56 - Jul 15 with 1841 views | PinnerPaul |
| Naively assembled squad, seen it all before on 16:31 - Jul 15 by Gloucs_R |
We are not done yet. Once the money for Sterling and Austin is in the bank, we'll go shopping for one or two quality players.
Also, we will use the loan system once the Prem teams have sorted their 25 man squads out.
We have to be honest, we are now shopping at Aldi using cash and not at Harrords on a credit card.
Mid table or above is what I hope for. Good football, a young team, with the promise of a promotion charge on he next 2-3 years. |
Agree Gloucs, especially about PL squads, I'm sure (assuming wage demands not silly) we will pick up one or two dropping down from there. | | | |
| Naively assembled squad, seen it all before on 17:25 - Jul 15 with 1757 views | barbicanranger |
I think the title of this thread is a little harsh, almost makes me think that no sooner has the new dawn risen and people are craving for what we just left behind. At the end of the day, if what you want is to build a club and an ethos around buying young players with potential and developing them into formed talent who can grown with the club and help the club to grow as well then there has to be some risk, the idea is that it will be a lower cost risk then buying a bonsignwa, et al. Additionally, I think there is a solid rationale and case for each of the purchases we have made so far, whereas under Waddock we really were clutching at straws on a much lower budget (Nicky Ward being a prime example). |  | | |
| Naively assembled squad, seen it all before on 17:48 - Jul 15 with 1703 views | stevec |
| Naively assembled squad, seen it all before on 16:13 - Jul 15 by ichbinnaughty |
I very much hope the club's mentality is one that, despite the changes, we were a Premier League club last season and are striving to return there as soon as possible.
We all know that the more time that passes since you were last in the Premier League, the more distant and difficult it becomes.
Just look at the likes of Bolton, Reading, Wigan, Fulham, Charlton, etc etc.
Regardless of how 'ready' we would be, football in today's industry is such that we would need the financial uplift at least of promotion (and the parachute payments).
I think the alternative is ruin.
(And I hate that that is what football in 2015 has become). |
That's about right. This 'happy with mid table' stuff is dangerous talk, any acceptance of mediocrity will only lead to failure. We are still one of the biggest budgets in the Division, why shouldn't we be having a go?
Truth is, if we'd brought in a new manager at the end of the season we'd be expecting and demanding big things. Trouble is, we've seen Ramsey in action and I reckon most of us think he's at best, a mid table type of man and that's set the tone on this board.
I genuinely hope he proves me and any doubters wrong, but I do fear the malaise that seems to be settling over this club. |  | | |
| Naively assembled squad, seen it all before on 18:03 - Jul 15 with 1661 views | BklynRanger |
| Naively assembled squad, seen it all before on 16:09 - Jul 15 by Northernr |
I made the same comparison after that first shambolic friendly, obviosuly with the caveat that however bad Les Ferdinand turns out to be he'll never be as bad as Paladini and however bad or otherwise this team of Ramsey's is it will never come close to that Gary Waddock team. Just stop and think for a moment...
QPR: P Jones 6, Bignot 5, Stewart 6, Rose 5, Milanese 5, Ainsworth 6, Rowlands 7 (Donnelly 78, 6), Lomas 7 (R Jones 65, 5), Ward 7, Cook 6, Czerkas 7 (Bircham 71, 6).
Subs: Cole, Kanyuka. (lost 2-0 at Burnley opening day)
QPR: Paul Jones 5, Rose 4, Rehman 4 (Baidoo 74, 8), Stewart 5, Milanese 6,Oliseh 8, Bircham 8, Ward 7, Cook 7, Nygaard 5, Blackstock 6 (Ray Jones 45, 6). (lost 2-0 to Birmingham in his last home game)
(fck I was generous with the marks in those days)
That's the team we started off with under Waddock. Only Cook and Rowlands would get anywhere near what we've got now. For people who weren't on that pre-season tour of Sorrento I cannot put into words just what a fiasco it was.
So we're nowhere near that level.
Also, I met Paladini and Waddock that summer for interviews and what have you and knew we were in trouble before it even kicked off. I've met Ferdinand and Ramsey this summer and liked absolutely everything they've said and what they're trying to do.
But I do hold the same sort of fears, particularly as we will potentially make the same mistake as last summer where we assumed Remy was staying and didn't plan for his inevitable departure. If Austin left now and we didn't add to the attack I'm not sure we'd score a goal ever again.
As I said before, I hope I'm worried because I'm so desperate for it to work. They're doing a lot of the right things.
This post has been edited by an administrator |
I think I'm actually more worried after reading that, Clive!
It's possible, in fact probable, that I'm looking at that team through rose tinted beer glasses, but there are a handful more from there that I'd like to have in our squad these days: Bignot was a very steady player imo, AInsworth and Bircham both had the right mentality and experience, Blackstock was a decent player, Ray Jones had started to show great promise and presence, and Thundercat was fcuking Thundercat!
I think it was the weaker links, poor tactical choices in how we were set up etc, and probably the general madness that was the problem. So I'd agree with the OP that there may be cause for concern about certain players at a higher level or in a different environment. But, more importantly, we do need to start taking those kind of calculated risks with players like Gladwin and The German. So I suppose I'm half optimistic and partly expecting some early horror shows that will hopefully be out of our system by December. |  | | |
| Naively assembled squad, seen it all before on 18:04 - Jul 15 with 1661 views | simmo |
People need to check their expectations. I don't want a big spending, lavish squad looking to get back in the premiership. I want a fun to watch, attacking team with a strict set of self imposed rules on how we operate and recruit and ambitions to run the club in the right way, regardless of success on the pitch. IF that then culminates in a play-off or promotion challenge, then great, but let's make sure we're built on solid foundations before we worry about making the place nice to look at.
So far I am of the opinion that everybody we've bought either has something to prove personally, or is looking at QPR as a step up for bigger and better things, maybe with us, maybe with someone else. If that means we have to bypass opportunities to buy more 'established' players in favour of those that fit our new found mandate, then I am all for it. Anything to get away from the wretched last few years, which that day at Wembley aside, have been the worst of my time supporting QPR [Post edited 15 Jul 2015 18:07]
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| ask Beavis I get nothing Butthead |
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| Naively assembled squad, seen it all before on 18:05 - Jul 15 with 1656 views | makaveli1882 |
| Naively assembled squad, seen it all before on 15:41 - Jul 15 by adhoc_qpr |
Disagree with some of that
Options at fullback - We have one left back (uninjured) and one right back with hardly any meaningful senior football under his belt.
A wealth of midfielders who can score goals - Who? Phillips has scored lots of goals, but is likely going. Fer the same. JET scored about 8 goals in 70 appearances for Ipswich. Luongo and Gladwin have never scored at Championship level. Faurlin isn't a goal threat and probably won't stay fit. Don't even say Hoillett!
3 decent strikers - We have one good striker who is almost definitely going, Mackie is fine but not an out and out striker and no one knows whether Polter will be a flop or a success.
If we genuinely keep Austin, Phillips, Fer etc then we'll be OK - but we all know the debt situation and its blatantly posturing to ensure we get a good price (fair play to Les).
Once they have gone, the squad will be very much lower table/relegation quality - who we bring in at that point will decide our season. |
Fantastic post.... and the truth I am afraid to say
We need to sign a few players with experience, does not mean we have to sign someone who is coming to the end of the career and give them 60k a week like the other despicable caant did.
If we sell Philips (10m) Charlie (15m) The keeper (3m) Fer (6m?) Sterling money (9m) plus parachute payments, surely that must be enough to get Rhodes or the other Blackburn striker, a decent championship midfielder and a couple of defenders .... regardless of our debt
You just know Charlie will go last day of the window and we will be stuck again, | | | |
| Naively assembled squad, seen it all before on 18:18 - Jul 15 with 1623 views | derbyhoop |
Nothing naive about the business so far. Les and Chris are operating to a budget, this time.
I'm with DaveB. We won't know until we see how the new players adapt to the championship. |  |
| "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the Earth all one's lifetime." (Mark Twain)
Find me on twitter @derbyhoop and now on Bluesky |
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| Naively assembled squad, seen it all before on 18:27 - Jul 15 with 1591 views | TacticalR |
@ichbinnaughty 'A matured Diakite, tamed and coached by the new set up, and finally able to fulfil the potential shown three/four years ago would be a quality new signing.'
Any project relying on the maturity of Diakité is likely to come to grief.  |  |
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| Naively assembled squad, seen it all before on 22:53 - Jul 15 with 1384 views | ichbinnaughty |
| Naively assembled squad, seen it all before on 18:27 - Jul 15 by TacticalR |
@ichbinnaughty 'A matured Diakite, tamed and coached by the new set up, and finally able to fulfil the potential shown three/four years ago would be a quality new signing.'
Any project relying on the maturity of Diakité is likely to come to grief. |
It was written with blind hope and optimism really.
Two useful and often crushed attributes down W12, alas.
Still keep coming back for more though, like a faithful, old, senile dog. | | | |
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