| Quick look at the financial statements 13:32 - Dec 28 with 21844 views | Nigeriamark |
As I mentioned in another post I have put together some of the data from the financial statements in a table & will give a simple/factual statement as to what they dhow. Clearly what we can do in the future is still a better of opinion but at least this gives a view on what the state of finances are as of end of May 2018. Unfortunately this is the first year where very detailed information is given, but I have looked at the balance sheet for the last 10 years which gives some insights.
I have attempted to explain how to look at these from the point of view of someone who may not be familiar with these documents so sorry if some of the explanations seem obvious
Table 1 - 2017 & 18 full financials
To May 18 To May 17
Gross Rev 5,412,000 6,000,000
Cost of sales -3,830,000 -3,161,000
Admin costs -1,943,000 -1,563,000
Distribution costs -31,000 0
Other income/loss 108,000 133,000
Intrest payable/received -23,000 -45,000
Total Profit/Loss -307,000 1,364,000
Exceptional income 1,429,000 -2,330,000
P/L on normal business -1,736,000 -966,000
Net assets 2,571,000 2,878,000
Table 2 - Exceptional items
2018 2017
Transfer fees 711,000 2,166,000
TV Money 455,000 17,000
Prize money 263,000 147,000
Total. 1, 429,000. 2,330,000
Table 3 - Increase in asset value last 10 years
GBP Assets
to May 18 -307,000 2,571,000
To May 17 1,356,000 2,878,000
to May 16 -419,000 1,522,000
to May 15 1,426,000 1,941,000
to May 14 -65,000 515,000
to May 13 -372,000 580,000
to May 12 353,000 952,000
to May 11 480,000 599,000
to May 10 143,000 119,000
To May 09 -24,000
I have split the next section into 3, How to read financials ( very basic) followed by what I think the Rochdale financials are saying ( mainly factual + some reasonable "guestimates", and finally a brief summary
READING FINANCIALS
Although gross revenue is important, it is not relevant until you take away what you have spent. This gives us the net revenue, which is also called profit or loss. This is the money that if you run at a profit you can put into your bank and if you run at a loss you need to take out of your bank. Many companies will look at this from 2 perspectives:-
1. How the " normal" operation is running - This looks only at income and expenditure that is predictable and occurs every year. This would include gate money, sponsorships, EFL money etc as incomes and Salaries, maintenance etc. This profit loss on normal business is an indication of the general health of the business and if positive means that you are not requiring something that cannot be guaranteed to happen to balance the books
2. Total operation - This is as above but then adds in items that are not guaranteed to happen. For income this could be Transfer fees and sell ons received, Money from drawing a big club in a cup etc. For expenditure this could be a fee paid for a player. If positive and you are running a positive normal operation this would be considered " cream on top" and could be used to fund something not initially planned. If normal business is negative then you would need to use this additional income to cover the loss
Unfortunately we only have exceptional item breakdown for 2018 & 2017 so hard to judge trends
3. Table 3 - Increase/decrease in assets
Although we do not have full financials, we have the asset value over 10 years. In 2009 the club had a negative value but over the last 10 years we have recorded a total of approx 2.6m profit so we stand as of May 2018 with assets of 2.571m. Although this is an average of 260,000 a year, it is not a smooth increase but swings dramatically between + 1.4m and - 400,000. We can estimate below the reason for this
WHAT DO THE FINANCIALS SEEM TO BE SAYING
1. Normal Business. The club has lost about 2.7m over 2017 & 2018 or approx 110,000 per month. Revenue from gates actually increased slightly, but Salaries jumped significantly as did Admin cost. It would seem that as a result of a large transfer/sell in 2017, the club then pushed out the boat on players or other staff
Based on the fact that we have never had massive increases in staff, income, crowds etc I would estimate that we have probably incurred losses on normal business in most if not all of the last 10 years
2. Total Business. After over 110 years of business, we find ourselves with assets of approx 2.6m a figure also earned over the last 10 years. The fact that year end 2015 and 2017 account for more than this amount and the fact that we have full details of 2017 show that the biggest individual factor in getting to where we are is not the way the club runs it's normal business, but its dependence on exceptional items. This is not regular though and it is primarily through these 2 exceptional years ( not sure which transfers or sell ons would be hear). Prize money and TV money is also contributing, but it is the transfers that have got us to where we are. We have still lost money in 4 of the last 9 years even with all the windfalls
3. Assets. These would confirm my above points. Most of the normal business is under our control and the nature of the market we compete in suggest that although I don't have the detail, it is likely to have followed a similar loss making pattern. I would guess that in league 2 the gross revenue and costs were lower but we also did not achieve the same level of income from TV money, transfers etc. As a result we would have been running losses but not 110,000 per month
SUMMARY
1. Rochdale is a loss making club based on normal business and I would estimate probably always have been. In an effort to stay in league 1 we have "pushed out the boat" since the league 2 days, but increases in revenue from ticket sales will probably not have got anywhere near covering this. Sponsorships increased in 2018 but with lack of detailed data before 2017 it is hard to see if this is a trend
2. Unlike earlier years we have been relatively successful in the selling market, but not every year. As a result we have turned normal losses into a profit and our assets have risen. If we are to maintain the squad, level of spending we incur in league 1 we are going to have to "guarantee" a supply of players that we can sell on at a profit ( + try to win cup ties for prize money and a possibility of money spinning ties)
Over the last 5 years we seem to have a set of financials that a lot of EFL clubs would love, but it is dependent on continuing with our "selling club" model. It is not a lack of ambition but a financial imperative, much that it pisses of many fans.
My final comments would be based on "appetite for risk". You can take my data and moving forward justify any course of action based on your personal appetite for risk. For example:-
1. We could buy players in January or hand money back to fans with lower cup tie tickets and justify this by saying we believe we will continue to be successful in identifying and selling on talent
2. We could manage with what we have ( or free transfers) and maximise ticket prizes with the justification that transfers could dry up and we need to take a less risky policy in terms of what we spend.
That is why for example no-one is actually wrong if they say the Newcastle tickets should be 22 or 27 GBP. It depends on what you believe in terms of where we are now, what the future holds ( which no-one knows), and what your personal risk profile is
Clearly like everyone else I have a view of what we should do going forward, but in the interest of trying to make this factual view of the numbers I won't be the first to comment
This email is long enough but happy to answer any questions. For some of the more detailed numbers (. salaries etc 2017 & 18) , I have added a link at the bottom
1 question I would like to know is what "Admin" includes as it is a large amount & has increased. If I have this info I could probably do a better analysis but at this stage I have assumed it is part of normal business
https://s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/document-api-images-live.ch.gov.uk/docs/wfryK
[Post edited 28 Dec 2019 13:35]
|  | | |  |
| Quick look at the financial statements on 22:34 - Dec 28 with 1930 views | nordenblue |
| Quick look at the financial statements on 21:20 - Dec 28 by Dorislove |
Average 82k for each player in our squad ,never in a million years .£1586 a week |
Why,do you think that's excessive?
There will be a few players now doubling that, wasn't a decent wage at Spotland around £1200/wk many moons ago when Lambert/Holt were both here, the £1600/wk(ish) average now I'd say looks on the low side considering we're a league 1 side. |  | | |
| Quick look at the financial statements on 22:43 - Dec 28 with 1908 views | RAFCBLUE |
| Quick look at the financial statements on 22:02 - Dec 28 by judd |
At the risk of appearing critical, we are "selling" season tickets to the wrong people.
The best negotiators in the world are children. Target the local football clubs end of season awards (Springfield Park Juniors hire out the Ratcliffe, Pennine Juniors the cricket, lacrosse & squash club, for example), get head teacher buy in at schools, scouts, cubs, beavers, link with cricket clubs (summer and winter sports), link any sale to a child with an adult purchase. Just thinking along 49thseasons lines. |
And we focus on the wrong success measures.
Occupancy % should be the key focus of the club.
Stated ground capacity is 10,249. It's really less than that but that's a lot of unused capacity.
It's no more than 35% occupied most home game.
Vs Spurs in February 2018 it was 83% occupied.
A start would be finding a creative way to get 35% up to 40% - 500 extra bodies.
How about giving 500 season ticket holders one extra free ticket to give away to every time between now and the end of the season?
11 home games. 5,500 tickets. Cost is zero as the space would be there anyway. The club can measure the effectiveness of the initiative.
Get (and keep) people into the habit of going; that's the key success factor.
We have never ever tried to master that. |  |
| |
| Quick look at the financial statements on 22:57 - Dec 28 with 1876 views | judd |
| Quick look at the financial statements on 22:43 - Dec 28 by RAFCBLUE |
And we focus on the wrong success measures.
Occupancy % should be the key focus of the club.
Stated ground capacity is 10,249. It's really less than that but that's a lot of unused capacity.
It's no more than 35% occupied most home game.
Vs Spurs in February 2018 it was 83% occupied.
A start would be finding a creative way to get 35% up to 40% - 500 extra bodies.
How about giving 500 season ticket holders one extra free ticket to give away to every time between now and the end of the season?
11 home games. 5,500 tickets. Cost is zero as the space would be there anyway. The club can measure the effectiveness of the initiative.
Get (and keep) people into the habit of going; that's the key success factor.
We have never ever tried to master that. |
At least 2000 home fans going to Newcastle game that do not appear to be ST holders. Were email/mobile number obtained and permission granted to use them for marketing purposes?
Will all home fans be leafleted, contact details for use in marketing campaigns to be completed and returned? Make it easy to complete by handing out pens (bookie type) and collecting the form, not relying on it to be handed in.
Then use the contact data on a concerted campaign.
Mailchimp is a manageable email campaign option and very affordable. As are others.
Apologies if all of the above in place. |  |
| |
| Quick look at the financial statements on 23:00 - Dec 28 with 1868 views | ChaffRAFC |
| Quick look at the financial statements on 21:23 - Dec 28 by RAFCBLUE |
Assume that includes employers national insurance so £82k is a £72k salary - £1,400 a week.
Hendo is on £120k easy. Done, Andrew and others are on more that £1,400 a week in League 1. |
Several players will be on at least £2.5k a week, more on about £2k and more on £1.5k a week and the problem is that more than a few aren't contributing. Andrew, Lillis, McLaughlin and Done are stealing a living at the moment. Done at least works hard but isn't good enough and wasn't good enough last season. Same with Andrew in that respect. Wilbraham does at least add something but overall hasn't offered enough over two years. McShane will be on a big wage but is injured and not contributing. Then on top of that you've players who aren't performing like Williams and to an extent Ryan (actually think he's a miles better player than people credit him for). And you're also paying probably 50% of wages to Sheff United, Huddersfield and Brighton for RND, Pyke and Sanchez.
Hill got given a huge increase on wage budget and for what? To finish just outside the relegation zone?
This is what makes BBM's job so hard but also why he's done so well up to this point.
We evidently can't afford league one football but we absolutely can't afford to go down so he is going to have to have some help from the unbudgeted money we've had this season. Allow him to replace McShane and at least add loanees. Fire Pyke off, look at Macc for bargains and do what you can to clear some crap off the wage budget like Lillis and McLaughlin. |  |
| If I hadn't seen such riches, I could live with being poor |
| |
| Quick look at the financial statements on 23:09 - Dec 28 with 1843 views | judd |
| Quick look at the financial statements on 23:00 - Dec 28 by ChaffRAFC |
Several players will be on at least £2.5k a week, more on about £2k and more on £1.5k a week and the problem is that more than a few aren't contributing. Andrew, Lillis, McLaughlin and Done are stealing a living at the moment. Done at least works hard but isn't good enough and wasn't good enough last season. Same with Andrew in that respect. Wilbraham does at least add something but overall hasn't offered enough over two years. McShane will be on a big wage but is injured and not contributing. Then on top of that you've players who aren't performing like Williams and to an extent Ryan (actually think he's a miles better player than people credit him for). And you're also paying probably 50% of wages to Sheff United, Huddersfield and Brighton for RND, Pyke and Sanchez.
Hill got given a huge increase on wage budget and for what? To finish just outside the relegation zone?
This is what makes BBM's job so hard but also why he's done so well up to this point.
We evidently can't afford league one football but we absolutely can't afford to go down so he is going to have to have some help from the unbudgeted money we've had this season. Allow him to replace McShane and at least add loanees. Fire Pyke off, look at Macc for bargains and do what you can to clear some crap off the wage budget like Lillis and McLaughlin. |
Lillis crap? I'm disappointed with that assessment. | |
| |
| Quick look at the financial statements on 23:18 - Dec 28 with 1825 views | ChaffRAFC |
| Quick look at the financial statements on 23:09 - Dec 28 by judd |
Lillis crap? I'm disappointed with that assessment. |
In that every manager he's played under has repeatedly replaced him. And he's obviously not wanted by the management and therefore needs moving on as he's not working for his big wage.
A great servant but sentiment aside, he needs to be shifted.
Edit - I don't happen to think McLaughlin is crap either, quality player but if he's not playing for us for a long period of time then we can't afford to pay him either.
This post has been edited by an administrator | |
| If I hadn't seen such riches, I could live with being poor |
| |
| Quick look at the financial statements on 23:22 - Dec 28 with 1811 views | judd |
| Quick look at the financial statements on 23:18 - Dec 28 by ChaffRAFC |
In that every manager he's played under has repeatedly replaced him. And he's obviously not wanted by the management and therefore needs moving on as he's not working for his big wage.
A great servant but sentiment aside, he needs to be shifted.
Edit - I don't happen to think McLaughlin is crap either, quality player but if he's not playing for us for a long period of time then we can't afford to pay him either.
This post has been edited by an administrator |
How many awards did he win?
Doesn't he hold the record for clean sheets?
One downside of Hills management was his inability to manage keepers.
Agree about sentiment in that a new manager is now in.place and he will be judged accordingly.
But Lillis was never crap. | |
| |
| Quick look at the financial statements on 23:34 - Dec 28 with 1794 views | James1980 |
How about to get extra POTD spectators, the ticket from the previous match becomes a voucher for the next one [Post edited 28 Dec 2019 23:36]
| |
| |
Login to get fewer ads
| Quick look at the financial statements on 00:06 - Dec 29 with 1746 views | Sandyman |
| Quick look at the financial statements on 23:34 - Dec 28 by James1980 |
How about to get extra POTD spectators, the ticket from the previous match becomes a voucher for the next one [Post edited 28 Dec 2019 23:36]
|
Current club policy is to make POTD spectators pay much much more.
Great idea but defeats the object of fleecing the occasional "walk up" attendees, the ones that used to be so important to this club.
Will need a big change in attitude within RAFC for that idea to work James. |  | | |
| Quick look at the financial statements on 00:10 - Dec 29 with 1738 views | rochedale |
| Quick look at the financial statements on 21:08 - Dec 28 by fitzochris |
While the advert for season tickets resembled a Greater Manchester Police campaign, the idea of advertising in public places in itself is a good one. How else can the club make non die hards aware? They may well not be following the club on social media. |
Non die-hards or for that matter, anybody, don’t have to follow the club on social media to come across/be subject to the clubs online advertising. All the club would have to produce are targeted sponsored ads or boosted posts, which is quite straightforward, once you know how. This, I feel would be far more effective than posters on main roads. |  |
| |
| Quick look at the financial statements on 00:17 - Dec 29 with 1725 views | judd |
| Quick look at the financial statements on 00:10 - Dec 29 by rochedale |
Non die-hards or for that matter, anybody, don’t have to follow the club on social media to come across/be subject to the clubs online advertising. All the club would have to produce are targeted sponsored ads or boosted posts, which is quite straightforward, once you know how. This, I feel would be far more effective than posters on main roads. |
Nor should it be either/or,.which I took to be fitzos point.
Appreciate your explanation of how a social media campaign can work and would hope that a holistic approach to marketing can be initiated and persisted with. What we have at Rochdale only has a certain market value and in my opinion we are moving beyond that value threshold in terms of what the town will pay for a poor product. | |
| |
| Quick look at the financial statements on 00:43 - Dec 29 with 1711 views | fitzochris |
| Quick look at the financial statements on 00:10 - Dec 29 by rochedale |
Non die-hards or for that matter, anybody, don’t have to follow the club on social media to come across/be subject to the clubs online advertising. All the club would have to produce are targeted sponsored ads or boosted posts, which is quite straightforward, once you know how. This, I feel would be far more effective than posters on main roads. |
I’ve worked with targeted online ads, so I know how, cheers.
Sadly, they are now perceived as a complete nuisance and their effectiveness is diminishing, at least in my experience. Still, I wasn’t discounting it. It should be part of a holistic approach, incorporating many of the other ideas suggested on here. |  |
| |
| Quick look at the financial statements on 08:18 - Dec 29 with 1615 views | rochedale |
| Quick look at the financial statements on 00:43 - Dec 29 by fitzochris |
I’ve worked with targeted online ads, so I know how, cheers.
Sadly, they are now perceived as a complete nuisance and their effectiveness is diminishing, at least in my experience. Still, I wasn’t discounting it. It should be part of a holistic approach, incorporating many of the other ideas suggested on here. |
Whether they are perceived as a nuisance or not is irrelevant as they are proven to work. Not quite sure whether I agree with your point about the value of them diminishing, it’s huge business nowadays, for the obvious reason, and the great benefit of it is that you can often measure its success, if run correctly.
I’ve just scrolled through my Facebook to see how many of the posts were ads. I scrolled through 30 posts and 6 were ads, which I am quite shocked about. It also tells me that I can’t be that annoyed by them otherwise I wouldn’t have been so surprised by the amount. I do also think that the large billboards are a great idea, such as the one on St Mary’s Gate a while back. As you say, a holistic approach is needed. | |
| |
| Quick look at the financial statements on 08:36 - Dec 29 with 1586 views | Dorislove |
| Quick look at the financial statements on 22:34 - Dec 28 by nordenblue |
Why,do you think that's excessive?
There will be a few players now doubling that, wasn't a decent wage at Spotland around £1200/wk many moons ago when Lambert/Holt were both here, the £1600/wk(ish) average now I'd say looks on the low side considering we're a league 1 side. |
Having seen posts like Chaffs and others I am somewhat out with my wage assessment, how the hell have we kept going for so long with these stupid wages. |  | | |
| Quick look at the financial statements on 08:40 - Dec 29 with 1577 views | fitzochris |
| Quick look at the financial statements on 08:18 - Dec 29 by rochedale |
Whether they are perceived as a nuisance or not is irrelevant as they are proven to work. Not quite sure whether I agree with your point about the value of them diminishing, it’s huge business nowadays, for the obvious reason, and the great benefit of it is that you can often measure its success, if run correctly.
I’ve just scrolled through my Facebook to see how many of the posts were ads. I scrolled through 30 posts and 6 were ads, which I am quite shocked about. It also tells me that I can’t be that annoyed by them otherwise I wouldn’t have been so surprised by the amount. I do also think that the large billboards are a great idea, such as the one on St Mary’s Gate a while back. As you say, a holistic approach is needed. |
As I say, in my experience, the feedback is that they are a nuisance and, as a result, people are not only paying less attention to them but are also forking out for subscriptions that block them or installing things such as ad-blockers. And I assure you, the campaign was run properly, hence capturing of feedback being built into the marketing plan.
As I also say, I’m not ruling them out entirely. They clearly still have a role to play, just not as an entirety. | |
| |
| Quick look at the financial statements on 08:49 - Dec 29 with 1555 views | fitzochris |
| Quick look at the financial statements on 08:36 - Dec 29 by Dorislove |
Having seen posts like Chaffs and others I am somewhat out with my wage assessment, how the hell have we kept going for so long with these stupid wages. |
The problem we have is that those wages are no longer excessive at League One level, and perhaps now League Two level. In fact, they’re barely competitive. The players we choose to pay them to, however, is a different matter. | |
| |
| Quick look at the financial statements on 09:24 - Dec 29 with 1506 views | ChaffRAFC |
| Quick look at the financial statements on 08:49 - Dec 29 by fitzochris |
The problem we have is that those wages are no longer excessive at League One level, and perhaps now League Two level. In fact, they’re barely competitive. The players we choose to pay them to, however, is a different matter. |
Exactly this.
We pay very small wages in comparison with the rest of the division. Probably Accrington included. | |
| If I hadn't seen such riches, I could live with being poor |
| |
| Quick look at the financial statements on 09:35 - Dec 29 with 1487 views | 1907 |
This might sound odd but from what I see nowadays, the most busy Facebook sites appear to be all the local community pages EG: “Littleborough Local” 4.9K people active on, “Norden Village” 2.8K people active on, “Whitworth: A Great Place To Live” 9K people active on. That’s nearly 17,000 people who are regularly active on social media, there ready to be marketed.
I have never seen a post by the club on any of them, the groups are all free and there to be used. I’m sure a conversation with the moderators could ease any concerns.
The other thing is how many mothers use those sites, who might just seen an advert or a raffle for some free tickets & think what a great idea for little Jimmy to do on Saturday afternoon whilst useless dad is down the pub with his United shirt on! | | | |
| Quick look at the financial statements on 09:50 - Dec 29 with 1465 views | TalkingSutty |
| Quick look at the financial statements on 08:36 - Dec 29 by Dorislove |
Having seen posts like Chaffs and others I am somewhat out with my wage assessment, how the hell have we kept going for so long with these stupid wages. |
The Club now receives more money from the EFL/ television consolidatory payment than it ever as, the same for all EFL clubs. Currently we receive roughly £1.5 million for every season we stay in L1, that’s before monies from gate receipts/ sponsorship/ hospitality/ merchandise/ lottery/ bar takings etc are taken into account. Consequently players wages have risen at every Club and we don’t pay the lowest wages in L1, or we didn’t.
Prior to Chris Dunphy leaving the Club we budgeted to lose about £400K/ season but obviously that deficit could be eaten into by selling players or having a decent cup draw etc. Keith Hill was given an increased budget during the summer of last season to recruit new payers but I have it on good authority he chose to reward the players with the money through pay rises rather than use it for what it was intended for, recruitment. There is no doubt he was given far too much leeway by the Chairman and those in the Boardroom and he was allowed to collect players like collecting stamps, credit to those now running the Club for sorting the problem out and changing managers,they have to accept some responsibility for it occurring in the first place though. The buck did have to stop with the Chairman, Hill in the end was allowed to just do as he pleased and nobody seemed capable of reining him in.
I had a discussion with the CEO just before the start of this season and he confirmed that the £400K deficit every season is still there, it might be a bit more now, but the previous poster who suggested we are losing £1.8 million every season is way off the mark that’s not happening. This calendar year has been brilliant for the Club, we have generated a lot of extra income through selling four players, add- on from the Dawson transfer to come next year, money from the United game, almost 250K in FA Cup television money, 90K in FA Cup prize money with hopefully more to come and extra income from gate receipts. It doesn’t matter how much we bring in though because money will always be tight but that situation isn’t unique to our Club, the majority of Clubs in L1 and L2 are in a far more precarious financial position than we are, many are millions of pounds in debt.
The money we lose every season is a manageable loss but we have to keep trying to recruit because finding broken toys and polishing them up to sell on has proven to be succesful, Accrington Stanley are currently benefitting through the same process, it’s a quick way of making money. I think it’s also far less risky and more cost effective than funding training complexes and all that entails, with having to pay coaches/ staff/ maintenance/ utility bills etc. It’s also a long drawn out process developing youth players with very little guarantee that a gem will be unearthed and even then we probably wouldn’t get the market value.
It’s pretty obvious that we have to sell a player or two every season ,or embark on a decent cup run to maintain our L1 status but let’s not fall into the trap of thinking that we are financially worse off than most of the Clubs in the lower leagues because we aren’t. Just because other Clubs might have double our home attendances doesn’t equate to them having more money, that extra gate money will have to pay for the bloated wage bills that they all carry and service their massive debts. It’s not as simple as saying that because we have a average home attendance of maybe 3,400 we can’t sustain L1 football, most of the last decade indicates that we can, but it’s a fine balancing act and dependent on players sales/ Cup money etc. [Post edited 29 Dec 2019 9:52]
|  | | |
| Quick look at the financial statements on 10:01 - Dec 29 with 1423 views | fitzochris |
| Quick look at the financial statements on 09:50 - Dec 29 by TalkingSutty |
The Club now receives more money from the EFL/ television consolidatory payment than it ever as, the same for all EFL clubs. Currently we receive roughly £1.5 million for every season we stay in L1, that’s before monies from gate receipts/ sponsorship/ hospitality/ merchandise/ lottery/ bar takings etc are taken into account. Consequently players wages have risen at every Club and we don’t pay the lowest wages in L1, or we didn’t.
Prior to Chris Dunphy leaving the Club we budgeted to lose about £400K/ season but obviously that deficit could be eaten into by selling players or having a decent cup draw etc. Keith Hill was given an increased budget during the summer of last season to recruit new payers but I have it on good authority he chose to reward the players with the money through pay rises rather than use it for what it was intended for, recruitment. There is no doubt he was given far too much leeway by the Chairman and those in the Boardroom and he was allowed to collect players like collecting stamps, credit to those now running the Club for sorting the problem out and changing managers,they have to accept some responsibility for it occurring in the first place though. The buck did have to stop with the Chairman, Hill in the end was allowed to just do as he pleased and nobody seemed capable of reining him in.
I had a discussion with the CEO just before the start of this season and he confirmed that the £400K deficit every season is still there, it might be a bit more now, but the previous poster who suggested we are losing £1.8 million every season is way off the mark that’s not happening. This calendar year has been brilliant for the Club, we have generated a lot of extra income through selling four players, add- on from the Dawson transfer to come next year, money from the United game, almost 250K in FA Cup television money, 90K in FA Cup prize money with hopefully more to come and extra income from gate receipts. It doesn’t matter how much we bring in though because money will always be tight but that situation isn’t unique to our Club, the majority of Clubs in L1 and L2 are in a far more precarious financial position than we are, many are millions of pounds in debt.
The money we lose every season is a manageable loss but we have to keep trying to recruit because finding broken toys and polishing them up to sell on has proven to be succesful, Accrington Stanley are currently benefitting through the same process, it’s a quick way of making money. I think it’s also far less risky and more cost effective than funding training complexes and all that entails, with having to pay coaches/ staff/ maintenance/ utility bills etc. It’s also a long drawn out process developing youth players with very little guarantee that a gem will be unearthed and even then we probably wouldn’t get the market value.
It’s pretty obvious that we have to sell a player or two every season ,or embark on a decent cup run to maintain our L1 status but let’s not fall into the trap of thinking that we are financially worse off than most of the Clubs in the lower leagues because we aren’t. Just because other Clubs might have double our home attendances doesn’t equate to them having more money, that extra gate money will have to pay for the bloated wage bills that they all carry and service their massive debts. It’s not as simple as saying that because we have a average home attendance of maybe 3,400 we can’t sustain L1 football, most of the last decade indicates that we can, but it’s a fine balancing act and dependent on players sales/ Cup money etc. [Post edited 29 Dec 2019 9:52]
|
That’s pretty much the situation as I understand it at present. | |
| |
| Quick look at the financial statements on 10:14 - Dec 29 with 1397 views | Dorislove |
| Quick look at the financial statements on 09:50 - Dec 29 by TalkingSutty |
The Club now receives more money from the EFL/ television consolidatory payment than it ever as, the same for all EFL clubs. Currently we receive roughly £1.5 million for every season we stay in L1, that’s before monies from gate receipts/ sponsorship/ hospitality/ merchandise/ lottery/ bar takings etc are taken into account. Consequently players wages have risen at every Club and we don’t pay the lowest wages in L1, or we didn’t.
Prior to Chris Dunphy leaving the Club we budgeted to lose about £400K/ season but obviously that deficit could be eaten into by selling players or having a decent cup draw etc. Keith Hill was given an increased budget during the summer of last season to recruit new payers but I have it on good authority he chose to reward the players with the money through pay rises rather than use it for what it was intended for, recruitment. There is no doubt he was given far too much leeway by the Chairman and those in the Boardroom and he was allowed to collect players like collecting stamps, credit to those now running the Club for sorting the problem out and changing managers,they have to accept some responsibility for it occurring in the first place though. The buck did have to stop with the Chairman, Hill in the end was allowed to just do as he pleased and nobody seemed capable of reining him in.
I had a discussion with the CEO just before the start of this season and he confirmed that the £400K deficit every season is still there, it might be a bit more now, but the previous poster who suggested we are losing £1.8 million every season is way off the mark that’s not happening. This calendar year has been brilliant for the Club, we have generated a lot of extra income through selling four players, add- on from the Dawson transfer to come next year, money from the United game, almost 250K in FA Cup television money, 90K in FA Cup prize money with hopefully more to come and extra income from gate receipts. It doesn’t matter how much we bring in though because money will always be tight but that situation isn’t unique to our Club, the majority of Clubs in L1 and L2 are in a far more precarious financial position than we are, many are millions of pounds in debt.
The money we lose every season is a manageable loss but we have to keep trying to recruit because finding broken toys and polishing them up to sell on has proven to be succesful, Accrington Stanley are currently benefitting through the same process, it’s a quick way of making money. I think it’s also far less risky and more cost effective than funding training complexes and all that entails, with having to pay coaches/ staff/ maintenance/ utility bills etc. It’s also a long drawn out process developing youth players with very little guarantee that a gem will be unearthed and even then we probably wouldn’t get the market value.
It’s pretty obvious that we have to sell a player or two every season ,or embark on a decent cup run to maintain our L1 status but let’s not fall into the trap of thinking that we are financially worse off than most of the Clubs in the lower leagues because we aren’t. Just because other Clubs might have double our home attendances doesn’t equate to them having more money, that extra gate money will have to pay for the bloated wage bills that they all carry and service their massive debts. It’s not as simple as saying that because we have a average home attendance of maybe 3,400 we can’t sustain L1 football, most of the last decade indicates that we can, but it’s a fine balancing act and dependent on players sales/ Cup money etc. [Post edited 29 Dec 2019 9:52]
|
Thanks for the info TS,paragraph 2 line 3 onwards is a pretty bad way to treat the money he was given to use.As you say the board at the time have something to answer for letting him get away with it. | | | |
| Quick look at the financial statements on 10:17 - Dec 29 with 1389 views | Dalenet |
| Quick look at the financial statements on 09:50 - Dec 29 by TalkingSutty |
The Club now receives more money from the EFL/ television consolidatory payment than it ever as, the same for all EFL clubs. Currently we receive roughly £1.5 million for every season we stay in L1, that’s before monies from gate receipts/ sponsorship/ hospitality/ merchandise/ lottery/ bar takings etc are taken into account. Consequently players wages have risen at every Club and we don’t pay the lowest wages in L1, or we didn’t.
Prior to Chris Dunphy leaving the Club we budgeted to lose about £400K/ season but obviously that deficit could be eaten into by selling players or having a decent cup draw etc. Keith Hill was given an increased budget during the summer of last season to recruit new payers but I have it on good authority he chose to reward the players with the money through pay rises rather than use it for what it was intended for, recruitment. There is no doubt he was given far too much leeway by the Chairman and those in the Boardroom and he was allowed to collect players like collecting stamps, credit to those now running the Club for sorting the problem out and changing managers,they have to accept some responsibility for it occurring in the first place though. The buck did have to stop with the Chairman, Hill in the end was allowed to just do as he pleased and nobody seemed capable of reining him in.
I had a discussion with the CEO just before the start of this season and he confirmed that the £400K deficit every season is still there, it might be a bit more now, but the previous poster who suggested we are losing £1.8 million every season is way off the mark that’s not happening. This calendar year has been brilliant for the Club, we have generated a lot of extra income through selling four players, add- on from the Dawson transfer to come next year, money from the United game, almost 250K in FA Cup television money, 90K in FA Cup prize money with hopefully more to come and extra income from gate receipts. It doesn’t matter how much we bring in though because money will always be tight but that situation isn’t unique to our Club, the majority of Clubs in L1 and L2 are in a far more precarious financial position than we are, many are millions of pounds in debt.
The money we lose every season is a manageable loss but we have to keep trying to recruit because finding broken toys and polishing them up to sell on has proven to be succesful, Accrington Stanley are currently benefitting through the same process, it’s a quick way of making money. I think it’s also far less risky and more cost effective than funding training complexes and all that entails, with having to pay coaches/ staff/ maintenance/ utility bills etc. It’s also a long drawn out process developing youth players with very little guarantee that a gem will be unearthed and even then we probably wouldn’t get the market value.
It’s pretty obvious that we have to sell a player or two every season ,or embark on a decent cup run to maintain our L1 status but let’s not fall into the trap of thinking that we are financially worse off than most of the Clubs in the lower leagues because we aren’t. Just because other Clubs might have double our home attendances doesn’t equate to them having more money, that extra gate money will have to pay for the bloated wage bills that they all carry and service their massive debts. It’s not as simple as saying that because we have a average home attendance of maybe 3,400 we can’t sustain L1 football, most of the last decade indicates that we can, but it’s a fine balancing act and dependent on players sales/ Cup money etc. [Post edited 29 Dec 2019 9:52]
|
I can see what you are saying, but our core operating loss in the numbers presented by the OP was £1.8m before exceptional income. Nobody has suggested we are prepared to run at that level of losses and the directors will have sanctioned the costs on the basis of having some certainty of the exceptional income coming through (previous player sale payments for example). But if we budget for c£400k of true losses then they already budget for quite a bit of exceptional income and in any case that level of loss accumulates over a few seasons quite quickly if we don't sell players. It is all about our risk appetite and how far the Board will take a chance. If none of them can loan the club the cash if it goes wrong then we simply cant take too many risks. It wasn't that long ago that we had a winding up order for an unpaid tax bill that resulted in us selling LeFondre overnight.
The operating costs of the club have exploded in recent years and it isn't just the players wages. We have probably spent more on the pitch over the last 3 seasons than we did in the previous 10. League 1 survival is critical for us because we don't have the income potential to recover any loss in League/TV payments through relegation. Running this club is like walking a tightrope.
I wonder, did any of the recently departed directors have any outstanding loans to the club that needed to be repaid. I simply have no idea. | | | |
| Quick look at the financial statements on 11:04 - Dec 29 with 1328 views | Nigeriamark |
| Quick look at the financial statements on 09:50 - Dec 29 by TalkingSutty |
The Club now receives more money from the EFL/ television consolidatory payment than it ever as, the same for all EFL clubs. Currently we receive roughly £1.5 million for every season we stay in L1, that’s before monies from gate receipts/ sponsorship/ hospitality/ merchandise/ lottery/ bar takings etc are taken into account. Consequently players wages have risen at every Club and we don’t pay the lowest wages in L1, or we didn’t.
Prior to Chris Dunphy leaving the Club we budgeted to lose about £400K/ season but obviously that deficit could be eaten into by selling players or having a decent cup draw etc. Keith Hill was given an increased budget during the summer of last season to recruit new payers but I have it on good authority he chose to reward the players with the money through pay rises rather than use it for what it was intended for, recruitment. There is no doubt he was given far too much leeway by the Chairman and those in the Boardroom and he was allowed to collect players like collecting stamps, credit to those now running the Club for sorting the problem out and changing managers,they have to accept some responsibility for it occurring in the first place though. The buck did have to stop with the Chairman, Hill in the end was allowed to just do as he pleased and nobody seemed capable of reining him in.
I had a discussion with the CEO just before the start of this season and he confirmed that the £400K deficit every season is still there, it might be a bit more now, but the previous poster who suggested we are losing £1.8 million every season is way off the mark that’s not happening. This calendar year has been brilliant for the Club, we have generated a lot of extra income through selling four players, add- on from the Dawson transfer to come next year, money from the United game, almost 250K in FA Cup television money, 90K in FA Cup prize money with hopefully more to come and extra income from gate receipts. It doesn’t matter how much we bring in though because money will always be tight but that situation isn’t unique to our Club, the majority of Clubs in L1 and L2 are in a far more precarious financial position than we are, many are millions of pounds in debt.
The money we lose every season is a manageable loss but we have to keep trying to recruit because finding broken toys and polishing them up to sell on has proven to be succesful, Accrington Stanley are currently benefitting through the same process, it’s a quick way of making money. I think it’s also far less risky and more cost effective than funding training complexes and all that entails, with having to pay coaches/ staff/ maintenance/ utility bills etc. It’s also a long drawn out process developing youth players with very little guarantee that a gem will be unearthed and even then we probably wouldn’t get the market value.
It’s pretty obvious that we have to sell a player or two every season ,or embark on a decent cup run to maintain our L1 status but let’s not fall into the trap of thinking that we are financially worse off than most of the Clubs in the lower leagues because we aren’t. Just because other Clubs might have double our home attendances doesn’t equate to them having more money, that extra gate money will have to pay for the bloated wage bills that they all carry and service their massive debts. It’s not as simple as saying that because we have a average home attendance of maybe 3,400 we can’t sustain L1 football, most of the last decade indicates that we can, but it’s a fine balancing act and dependent on players sales/ Cup money etc. [Post edited 29 Dec 2019 9:52]
|
Read my OP. I did not say we lose 1.8m EVERY season. However in 2017 - 2018 we did lose this amount on Normal business but made some of this up on exceptional items
Those figures are now 20 months old. the 2018/19 season has gone which will have been budgeted by the old management. Although new management took over part of the way during that year they are unlikely to have influenced the P&L that much so I would imagine another loss on normal business. I have no idea what exceptional items will hit in that year so I don't know what the loss/profit for the total business will be. This will be available in March and with 3 years of detailed data you can take what I have done and start to add in trends
2019 - 20 will be the first full set of figures for the new management, but we don't get those numbers until March 2021. I believe the Accrington Chairman is the only one of the 72 EFL clubs who gives fans an advance look. May be worth asking for at the next Forum, although there may be reasons for not doing so. It is also possible for businesses to give a forecast in advance i.e half way through a season ( i.e Now) draw up an estimate on how the year will finish and why. They would allow them to factor in the MUFC and Newcastle money + any known incomes from transfers ( & TV, Prize money). This then allows a 4 year detailed analysis of trends which becomes more significant | | | |
| Quick look at the financial statements on 11:42 - Dec 29 with 1284 views | RAFCBLUE |
| Quick look at the financial statements on 09:50 - Dec 29 by TalkingSutty |
The Club now receives more money from the EFL/ television consolidatory payment than it ever as, the same for all EFL clubs. Currently we receive roughly £1.5 million for every season we stay in L1, that’s before monies from gate receipts/ sponsorship/ hospitality/ merchandise/ lottery/ bar takings etc are taken into account. Consequently players wages have risen at every Club and we don’t pay the lowest wages in L1, or we didn’t.
Prior to Chris Dunphy leaving the Club we budgeted to lose about £400K/ season but obviously that deficit could be eaten into by selling players or having a decent cup draw etc. Keith Hill was given an increased budget during the summer of last season to recruit new payers but I have it on good authority he chose to reward the players with the money through pay rises rather than use it for what it was intended for, recruitment. There is no doubt he was given far too much leeway by the Chairman and those in the Boardroom and he was allowed to collect players like collecting stamps, credit to those now running the Club for sorting the problem out and changing managers,they have to accept some responsibility for it occurring in the first place though. The buck did have to stop with the Chairman, Hill in the end was allowed to just do as he pleased and nobody seemed capable of reining him in.
I had a discussion with the CEO just before the start of this season and he confirmed that the £400K deficit every season is still there, it might be a bit more now, but the previous poster who suggested we are losing £1.8 million every season is way off the mark that’s not happening. This calendar year has been brilliant for the Club, we have generated a lot of extra income through selling four players, add- on from the Dawson transfer to come next year, money from the United game, almost 250K in FA Cup television money, 90K in FA Cup prize money with hopefully more to come and extra income from gate receipts. It doesn’t matter how much we bring in though because money will always be tight but that situation isn’t unique to our Club, the majority of Clubs in L1 and L2 are in a far more precarious financial position than we are, many are millions of pounds in debt.
The money we lose every season is a manageable loss but we have to keep trying to recruit because finding broken toys and polishing them up to sell on has proven to be succesful, Accrington Stanley are currently benefitting through the same process, it’s a quick way of making money. I think it’s also far less risky and more cost effective than funding training complexes and all that entails, with having to pay coaches/ staff/ maintenance/ utility bills etc. It’s also a long drawn out process developing youth players with very little guarantee that a gem will be unearthed and even then we probably wouldn’t get the market value.
It’s pretty obvious that we have to sell a player or two every season ,or embark on a decent cup run to maintain our L1 status but let’s not fall into the trap of thinking that we are financially worse off than most of the Clubs in the lower leagues because we aren’t. Just because other Clubs might have double our home attendances doesn’t equate to them having more money, that extra gate money will have to pay for the bloated wage bills that they all carry and service their massive debts. It’s not as simple as saying that because we have a average home attendance of maybe 3,400 we can’t sustain L1 football, most of the last decade indicates that we can, but it’s a fine balancing act and dependent on players sales/ Cup money etc. [Post edited 29 Dec 2019 9:52]
|
Given Hill could only recommend to the Board the contracts being proposed for any player, the Board collectively must be complicit in those awards.
From what I see on the Official site at the end of 2017/18 we did the following:
1. Signed Matty Gilliam until June 2020
2. Extended Calvin Andrew to June 2020 from June 2019
3. Signed Aaron Wilbraham until June 2019
4. Signed Harrison McGahey until June 2020
5. Signed Andy Cannon until June 2019
6. Signed Brad Inman until June 2019
7. Signed Danny Adshead until June 2021
Of the above we have since offloaded McGahey, Cannon, Inman and Adshead for combined fees of £500k plus add ons.
Our two biggest earners, Henderson (signed an extended deal in October 2017 to June 2020) and Done (signed for two years in June 2017 and extended for two years to June 2021 by BBM); before the supposed budget increase for Hill.
Hill was a law until himself but to say the Board of the time, which includes two current Board members, did not know the details of things announced on the Official site is unfathomable.
I think when the May 2019 numbers come out they will show we had a significant cost in exiting Hill and Beech which was on top of the £400k budgetary loss we expected.
That’s where the money has gone.
To say our budget woes are solely down to increases the three extended contracts remaining (Wilbraham, Andrew and Morley) doesn’t stack up. | |
| |
| Quick look at the financial statements on 11:43 - Dec 29 with 1279 views | TalkingSutty |
| Quick look at the financial statements on 10:17 - Dec 29 by Dalenet |
I can see what you are saying, but our core operating loss in the numbers presented by the OP was £1.8m before exceptional income. Nobody has suggested we are prepared to run at that level of losses and the directors will have sanctioned the costs on the basis of having some certainty of the exceptional income coming through (previous player sale payments for example). But if we budget for c£400k of true losses then they already budget for quite a bit of exceptional income and in any case that level of loss accumulates over a few seasons quite quickly if we don't sell players. It is all about our risk appetite and how far the Board will take a chance. If none of them can loan the club the cash if it goes wrong then we simply cant take too many risks. It wasn't that long ago that we had a winding up order for an unpaid tax bill that resulted in us selling LeFondre overnight.
The operating costs of the club have exploded in recent years and it isn't just the players wages. We have probably spent more on the pitch over the last 3 seasons than we did in the previous 10. League 1 survival is critical for us because we don't have the income potential to recover any loss in League/TV payments through relegation. Running this club is like walking a tightrope.
I wonder, did any of the recently departed directors have any outstanding loans to the club that needed to be repaid. I simply have no idea. |
One thing that is very noticeable when you look at the matchday programme is the amount of staff the Club now employs compared to several years ago. i’m assuming thats in relation to running the youth academy, if that’s cost effective then fair enough. We have spent a lot of money on the pitch but those costs will be dwarfed if we go down the route of financing a new training complex and maintaining those pitches etc. If we are struggling to make ends meet now then how are we going to keep up with those day to day costs and employing extra staff etc?...Worse case scenario, how will we do that in L2 on gates of 1500? Maybe there are plans for a third party to finance everything for us, they won’t do it for nothing though, there will have to be something in it for them. | | | |
| |
By continuing to use the site, you agree to our use of cookies and to abide by our Terms and Conditions.
